for better athasian rules, see http://www.athas.org
The Dragon article is horrible and completely misses all the flavor that made Dark Sun so unique.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
It's not that bad. Then again, they advanced the timeline three hundred years forward, so it won't clash with OOP product material, as well as the Athas.org web site content. It's still the same hot, oppressive world.
Ahh yes. The same hot, oppressive world where dwarves have hair & beards and worship the Sorcerer-Kings that they once held in exactly the same esteem that Jews do Hitler. Druids have decided to, for no apparent reason other than to do something different, band together and become completely organized. Elves all mysteriously shrunk about a foot or so in height. Paladins, which never before existed on Athas, now do - and they are the only spellcasters who get magic from an intangible, and rather vaguely defined force. Sorcerers hide as Wizards to avoid being killed (that one just really baffles me). Half-Giants not only shrank, but apparently atrophied. The grey, which used to be where people's spirits dissolved after they died, and the power of the Undead came from for Athas, now is filled with Positive, rather than being tied to Negative energy. And the Black has become filled with Negative energy in it's place, and isn't even the same plane. Yep, it's the same world all right.
As I've said in other posts, it isn't Dark Sun. It is Bizzarro Dark Sun - there are some similarities between it and Dark Sun, but it isn't the same world. They dropped the ball on this one, plain and simple. And while it will potentially attract more people to Dark sun, it will only hurt the world in the end. I'm really glad they advanced it 300 years, so that all of their changes don't conflict in any way shape or form. Oh, wait... all of those changes above I mentioned do affect Dark Sun in the timeframe of the Athas.org setting. Good job!
Now true, I do like some of the ideas they had for the Sorcerer-Kings, lbecause they can get my creative juices kinda flowing on that. Their Defiler class is an interesting take on the whole thing. But the rest of it? It will never see the light of day in my campaigns. I understand that the original writer didn't make these changes. someone else did, and didn't know what they were doing. they thought they were helping, and only made it very bad. I don't even care about who did it - all I know is that I'm gonna run into a lot of Dark Sun players now that I will have to explain things to more, simply because they will believe that the Dragon/Dungeon magazine write-ups are gold. sure, it can help work in my advantage slightly (I'm all for a bit of misinformation to the players from time to time), but it actually causes more conflicts than helps.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Heh, you forgot "1st level mooks running around with metal weapons" ...
The equivalent of Paizo's "editorializing" of Dark Sun into what did appear would be to imagine a "Paizo'ed" version of Kara Tur with no Wu Jen, Shukenja, Samarai, Yakuza, or Ninja. Instead, just have Wizards, Clerics, Paladins and Rogues. The editorial rationale would be that "it's close enough, and the closer to the base PHB we make it, the wider its appeal will be."
Some rare few folks would find this acceptable... but they are likely not the types who would invest vast quantities of their RPG'ing time and money in that setting... IMO.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Now true, I do like some of the ideas they had for the Sorcerer-Kings, lbecause they can get my creative juices kinda flowing on that. Their Defiler class is an interesting take on the whole thing. But the rest of it? It will never see the light of day in my campaigns. I understand that the original writer didn't make these changes. someone else did, and didn't know what they were doing. they thought they were helping, and only made it very bad. I don't even care about who did it - all I know is that I'm gonna run into a lot of Dark Sun players now that I will have to explain things to more, simply because they will believe that the Dragon/Dungeon magazine write-ups are gold. sure, it can help work in my advantage slightly (I'm all for a bit of misinformation to the players from time to time), but it actually causes more conflicts than helps.
Perhaps, especially in light of the fact that this setting is to fully utilized most of the rules in the D&D core ruleboks and the Expanded Psionic's Handbook (which includes a "core" version of the half-giant), as a way to promote the new product (by WotC's order, I don't know).
I know I asked this question in the other thread: Is Dark Sun more d20 than D&D? Many of you defended that it is still D&D but it needs many different core classes (an Athas-specific gladiator, for once). Do you still consider it to be a D&D-appropriate setting? If it is, then Paizo did succeed in their task in utilizing most of the core rules. If it is more d20 than D&D, then Paizo failed.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I know I asked this question in the other thread: Is Dark Sun more d20 than D&D?
So I take it the "Dungeons & Dragons" on the covers of all of my Dark Sun books are misprints? Interesting. Didn't know I was buying bootleg books (aka not "true" D&D) at that auction...
I decided long ago that Dark Sun was best suited for d20, and after seeing Pazio's work, I'm even more certain of it.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
While it might have been written D&D on your old books, the actual writing was AD&D, which is quite different from the way D&D 3e, or 3.5 works, as it seems it doesn't allow for much divergence from the core books, as is required by Dark Sun.
I decided long ago that Dark Sun was best suited for d20, and after seeing Pazio's work, I'm even more certain of it.
So I'm to take it that if you don't play in a world that is a highly Americanized version of vaguely historic western europe (with lots of American pop-culture mixed in), its not D&D, with no room for cultural & environmental variations? Gotcha, my mistake for thinking D&D could be adapted to fit a drastically different world, not vice-a-versa. Hadn't realized that D&D was now restricted to such a culturally and environmentally narrow viewpoint ;)
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I know I asked this question in the other thread: Is Dark Sun more d20 than D&D?
Dark Sun is as much, if not more, D&D than WotC's Oriental Adventures is.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Perhaps, especially in light of the fact that this setting is to fully utilized most of the rules in the D&D core ruleboks and the Expanded Psionic's Handbook (which includes a "core" version of the half-giant), as a way to promote the new product (by WotC's order, I don't know).
And in the process, horribly ruined Dark sun. Many of the things they did really did not change the game mechanics, it was done purely in the descriptive text, and was very much unnecessary.
I know I asked this question in the other thread: Is Dark Sun more d20 than D&D? Many of you defended that it is still D&D but it needs many different core classes (an Athas-specific gladiator, for once). Do you still consider it to be a D&D-appropriate setting? If it is, then Paizo did succeed in their task in utilizing most of the core rules. If it is more d20 than D&D, then Paizo failed.
Well, Dark Sun (1 or 2), was AD&D. However, it was a setting that, IMHO, was an attempt to "justify" the optional rules that were presented for AD&D - and used them through & through. as a result, it deviated significantly from other D&D worlds, since it relied on rules that weren't typical for other campaign settings. Then wotC gets D&D, and released v. 3.0 of the rules - using a modified version of the "standard" rules for AD&D, and doesn't have the optional rules that Dark Sun relied on. It always has been different. It is D&D, in that it has the company logo on it, and was one of the AD&D Campaign Settings that was released, but it was different enough to really almost be something unique, and used many different rules.
classifying "d20" vs. "D&D", as being "follows the coire rulebooks" (for D&D), or "isbased through the same gamesystem mechanics for the most part" (as d20), then I'd have to say Dark Sun is more d20 than D&D. However, Dark Sun still has the D&D logo, and there are many things that Athas.org are required to do with their version to keep in-line with the Core Rules (like ensuring that the classes are balanced to the CR system, and that the Preserver is the PHB wizard, for example). but, in reality, it is, IMHO, not a "real" D&D setting - it has too many variants to be completely following the core rules. but the same can be said about Planeshift, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft.
Thats all i really had to say,
thanks
Thats all i really had to say,
thanks
Oronis doesn't have Paladins, he has Templars. Furthermore, he'd never WANT Paladins, because it's in paladins nature to go crusading; which is exactly the opposite of what he wants. He's trying to avoid attention at all costs, not bring it on himself.
If you really wanted a kind of militant priest order for Oronis, it's easy enough just to multiclass fighter/templars.
Originally posted by Porkchops
Bluffing, disguising, and other "rogue skills" really doesn't fit the motif of a Paladin, does it?
Oronis doesn't have Paladins, he has Templars. Furthermore, he'd never WANT Paladins, because it's in paladins nature to go crusading; which is exactly the opposite of what he wants. He's trying to avoid attention at all costs, not bring it on himself.
If you really wanted a kind of militant priest order for Oronis, it's easy enough just to multiclass fighter/templars.
Agreed. Oronis is probably the last guy to be making a group of Paladins. And..... I always seem to get the impression that the Sorcerer-Kings are more limited in the volume of different spells available to Templars over other divine classes., but can provide more juice to keep casting them, ala the Sorcerer progressionon spells known/spells per day. as such, the Paladin would probably need, not only a complete reworking of the filler text, but probably some heavy tweaking of the spellcasting parts as well. Plus, some of the Paladin's abilities probably would need to be reviewed. Basically - you'd have to make a brand new class. I know, we'll make a brand new class, that has little to nothing to do with the Player's Handbook "Paladin", proclaim that the PHB Paladin has finally been brought to Dark Sun, and then present this totally different class as the result. Heck, if it can work for Paizo....
(I'm aware that the Bard already is in that kind of a situation, however it's not like we've said it was the PHB Bard, or that the Dark Sun Bard was remotely the same class. They just happen to share a name, and have a couple similarities. Kinda like how the Paizo-Bizarro Dark Sun is with real Dark Sun.)
Oronis' Templars, (IIRC) are Spies, as well as the Teachers & Healers for New Kurn, or actors pretending to be "normal" Templars in Old Kurn (like how everyone in Old Kurn pretends to be a "normal" city's residents there - even if they draw straws for who's the slave & who's the master each day or so) Plus, I believe that the Templars, like Oronis himself, hold no official positions in the city leadership for New Kurn. Oronis is merely an advisor to the City leaders (and well.... kinda very highly respected and such). I don't see him placing his Templars in charge there. (but their secular authority still is useful for charade known as Old Kurn)
I vaguely remember Brax mentioning this to me before. He's done a lot of work on that region....
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
classifying "d20" vs. "D&D", as being "follows the coire rulebooks" (for D&D), or "isbased through the same gamesystem mechanics for the most part" (as d20), then I'd have to say Dark Sun is more d20 than D&D. However, Dark Sun still has the D&D logo, and there are many things that Athas.org are required to do with their version to keep in-line with the Core Rules (like ensuring that the classes are balanced to the CR system, and that the Preserver is the PHB wizard, for example). but, in reality, it is, IMHO, not a "real" D&D setting - it has too many variants to be completely following the core rules. but the same can be said about Planeshift, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft.
That's what I thought too, which is -- IMNSHO -- not a bad thing.
...IMNSHO...
Seriously. Where are we going with this? Will we start writing in nothing but acronym? ROLTFLMAO, IMHO. I'm going to start typing in 733t.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Reg, sorry to single you out, but:
Seriously. Where are we going with this? Will we start writing in nothing but acronym? ROLTFLMAO, IMHO. I'm going to start typing in 733t.
There's a difference between 'net alphabet soup, and annoying letter/number swapping to make oneself look cool. I use some acronyms.... only because I have used them for over a decade, and they are kinda ingrained in my style of writing online. the only time I ever thought number/letter swapping was cool, was with an old local BBS SysOp's name - and only because he was cool. He had his online "handle" be sp1d3r. But other than that, I really never cared for it.
If some newbie out there decides to do a hunt for "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King," they are probably not going to search for "RFDK" or "RaFoaDK," dig? Especially with the new Dragon and Dungeon articles out there, we're going to start getting a great deal of new fans (and old fans) coming back.
Add to this that I have to deal with acronyms constantly at work, and it just freaks me out.
How off-topic am I? Yar, the new Dungeon and Dragon articles are missing the basic flavor of Dark Sun, which is what made this gaming world both unique and interesting. Thankfully, the writers had the foresight to put the setting 300 years in the future, avoiding (direct) conflicts with the current setting; anything that fundamentally changes the world can be attributed to the death or disappearance of most of the DKs (there's another acronym) and the three centuries between. Personally, I always run my campaigns right before Kalak's fall or right after.
I figured out what IMO and IMHO meant, and now IMNSHO but many are a mystery to me. For starters:
IRC or IIRC
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I decided long ago that Dark Sun was best suited for d20, and after seeing Pazio's work, I'm even more certain of it.
Amen brother.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
IRC or IIRC
IRC = Internet Relay Chat
IIRC - If I Recall Correctly
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
While we are on the topic, time to look stupid :D
I figured out what IMO and IMHO meant, and now IMNSHO but many are a mystery to me. For starters:
IRC or IIRC
http://meteu.octoraro.org/sands/abbreviations.html
I used to post this on the DSML (which has historically had a far worse case of Acro-philia than has surfaced on the boards thus far) regularly as a part of the FAQ.
I used to post this on the DSML (which has historically had a far worse case of Acro-philia than has surfaced on the boards thus far) regularly as a part of the FAQ.
Was that intentional irony? Ha! Ha! OMFGROTFLMAO!
DSML == Dark Sun Mailing List, for whoever was wondering. If you don't know what a FAQ is, I'll come over and kick ya' in the junk (a recent, popular hobby).
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
While we are on the topic, time to look stupid :D
I figured out what IMO and IMHO meant, and now IMNSHO but many are a mystery to me. For starters:
IRC or IIRC
IMNSHO = In my not-so-humble opinion.
(In My Not So Humble Opinion Which I Will Now Share With You)
Back to DS (waaaaaaay off topic - for that, I apologize).
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Oh, I understood what it said, I just thought it was ridiculous. That's my rant for the day; carry on. I've just watched that thing grow from its infantile days of IMO to IMHO to now IMNSHO. Where next? IMNSHOWIWNSWY?
(In My Not So Humble Opinion Which I Will Now Share With You)
Back to DS (waaaaaaay off topic - for that, I apologize).
I hate acronyms, if you guys that are native english speakers find it hard to understand, guess what happens to those that are not native english speakers??? I just have to either ignore or guess what it means... (it sucks..)
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Amen brother.
Then the obvious conclusion is: Paizo failed, despite some posters here and on EN World messageboards are trying to convince me that it is still a D&D setting.
They should have found an alternative way to promote XPH, a D&D core supplement.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Ahh yes. The same hot, oppressive world where dwarves have hair & beards and worship the Sorcerer-Kings that they once held in exactly the same esteem that Jews do Hitler. Druids have decided to, for no apparent reason other than to do something different, band together and become completely organized. Elves all mysteriously shrunk about a foot or so in height. Paladins, which never before existed on Athas, now do - and they are the only spellcasters who get magic from an intangible, and rather vaguely defined force. Sorcerers hide as Wizards to avoid being killed (that one just really baffles me). Half-Giants not only shrank, but apparently atrophied. The grey, which used to be where people's spirits dissolved after they died, and the power of the Undead came from for Athas, now is filled with Positive, rather than being tied to Negative energy. And the Black has become filled with Negative energy in it's place, and isn't even the same plane. Yep, it's the same world all right.
As I've said in other posts, it isn't Dark Sun. It is Bizzarro Dark Sun - there are some similarities between it and Dark Sun, but it isn't the same world. They dropped the ball on this one, plain and simple. And while it will potentially attract more people to Dark sun, it will only hurt the world in the end. I'm really glad they advanced it 300 years, so that all of their changes don't conflict in any way shape or form. Oh, wait... all of those changes above I mentioned do affect Dark Sun in the timeframe of the Athas.org setting. Good job!
Now true, I do like some of the ideas they had for the Sorcerer-Kings, lbecause they can get my creative juices kinda flowing on that. Their Defiler class is an interesting take on the whole thing. But the rest of it? It will never see the light of day in my campaigns. I understand that the original writer didn't make these changes. someone else did, and didn't know what they were doing. they thought they were helping, and only made it very bad. I don't even care about who did it - all I know is that I'm gonna run into a lot of Dark Sun players now that I will have to explain things to more, simply because they will believe that the Dragon/Dungeon magazine write-ups are gold. sure, it can help work in my advantage slightly (I'm all for a bit of misinformation to the players from time to time), but it actually causes more conflicts than helps.
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
Dark Sun is as much, if not more, D&D than WotC's Oriental Adventures is.
I would say that considering the AD&D 2nd edition rules, Dark Sun was truly AD&D, there were no rules such as SRD or D20, so there were no means to separate the three core books from everything else.
That doesn't happens in the same way in the 3.5rd edition of D&D. WotC stablished that everyone could use their rules system and make their own supplements. So, we all have two options:
- to follow all the rules and do not create an alternate way to create characters, etc. so we would have something more close to D&D than D20.
- to follow the game mechanics but, also providing new classes, races, and new methods of character creation, so we would be writing D20;
Considering just this above, I would agree with those that say Dark Sun is more close to D20 than he is to D&D.
On the other hand, assuming this, all the others campaing settings would be D20 too, cause all have at least one peculiarity or another. There would be no others campaign settings loyal enough to D&D besides the one you created yoursefl based only on your imagination and the three core books (provided you don't spend much time improving your world, otherwise it would too become D20).
So it's a matter of choice: do I prefer it as D20 or as D&D? I choose D&D, simply because the setting is considered official by WotC, and will treat it as D20 as everybody does, since we all like to spice it with our own house rules.
1) Athas.org team did the new Dark Sun as D&D like as possible to be considered official by WoTC. (Again, my sincerest congratulations to the team for the job well done. You rock, guys!)
2) I have the feeling that they would do it more in the d20 way to reflect the speciality of the setting. And it's fine.
3) Almost everybody would like to have it that way, too, just see the lot of arguments on these boards, especially in the defiling magic section.
/me putting a nostalgic, almost sentimental kick into the dead kank :D
4) But athas.org team, showing epic willpower, discipline and determination keep up with the D&D version, and not the d20, to keep this project official.
5) Then the dramatic twist of fate: Paizo came out with their own bizarro creation in Dragon magazine.
6) WoTC did nothing to protect, or even just propagate a bit the athas.org DS project.
7) With that they technically spit in the face of the whole athas.org team and the community here, who made considerable sacrifices (sometimes even against their better judgement) to keep this thing official, and D&D, not d20. The team and the community got nothing for their loyalty.
And that is what makes me reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllllllllllllyyyyyyy p*ssed off about the whole story and the whole WoTC and Paizo bunch. If I would write down here my sincere opinion about them, I would be banned from all the boards forever. So I just put some small sign there to express my opinion. You got it anyway.
:headexploMany of the concepts of Dark Sun are very much built on the basic D&D model. You have warriors, rogues, arcane spellcasters, and divine spellcasters. The basic elements of fantasy gaming are here. The question is whether they fit the D&D model best, or more of a generic d20 model, or if they should have been left as AD&D.
I thought the AD&D model was pretty good. I think the implementation was good. Note that the implementation included many variant rules (as someone else already mentioned), so it wasn’t pure AD&D.
With D&D 3e, we have two sets of rules to look at. Athas.org did well maintaining flavor. Paizo presented an alternate view that was more D&D-centric – one that many long-time Dark Sun fans were not happy with. Personally, I liked some things and not others about both systems.
Now we have d20 to look at. The way I look at d20 is that it is the basic, fundamental rules system. D&D is a subset of that designed for fantasy gaming, much like how d20 Modern is a subset designed for modern day gaming. Both are d20, yet both have their own flavor.
A basic d20 system would give a lot of freedom to create Dark Sun true to form. The question then remains on how much work one has to put into it. There’s considerations such as races and classes. How would you approach magic? You pretty much would have to create a new system. Would you want to go that far?
I guess the question then lies in whether the D&D elements of Dark Sun are tied completely to DS, or whether those elements are just generic enough of fantasy concepts to use outside of D&D.
Here’s some thoughts on some things I would do differently, either in a heavily modified D&D (taking a note from AD&D) or a d20 version of DS.
Clerics – I would remove the cleric class completely. Two domains does not equal someone completely dedicated to an element. Dragon’s version is what I would have used with straight D&D rules, while Athas.org’s version is more true to form, within the confines of those rules. Instead, I would replace this with some sort of elementalist class, that acts like a DS cleric would, with more elemental based powers and a spell list to match.
Arcane spellcasters – Drop the bard, and replace the wizard and sorcerer with something more DS-specific. I think an arcane spellcasting class that had two paths, preserver and defiler, would work out nicely. Choose your path, have benefits for each, and allow one to switch if need be (with penalties for doing so either way).
I’d add either a gladiator base class or PrC. That’s too specific for a fighter, IMO.
So what do you guys think? How would you shape the world of Athas if given free reign?
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Then the obvious conclusion is: Paizo failed, despite some posters here and on EN World messageboards are trying to convince me that it is still a D&D setting.
They should have found an alternative way to promote XPH, a D&D core supplement.
I know Eric has said that he considers it one, and that's pretty weird since I am pretty much as much of a fanatic about Dark Sun as he is.
Even when I played it in 2nd ed. I saw it as not being D&D with all the different rules and straying so far from the norm.
That's even more so in 3.0/3.5 where everything is suppose to come from the same cookie cutter. Dark Sun breaks that even more so IMO.
I agree, they should have found an alternative way to promote, I heard rumors of a psionic world being created (not DS), they should had gotten that finished up and out instead of Ebberon. Though, I am liking what I am seeing of Ebberon.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
A basic d20 system would give a lot of freedom to create Dark Sun true to form. The question then remains on how much work one has to put into it. There’s considerations such as races and classes. How would you approach magic? You pretty much would have to create a new system. Would you want to go that far?
Already been working on one, and while it is alot of work, I think in the long run it's worth it.
Now if I can just stop being lazy and use my own flavor text so I can post it without the rest of athas.org beating me to a bloody pulp.
Not that it's anywhere near being finished...
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
So what do you guys think? How would you shape the world of Athas if given free reign?
for my campaigns:
(classes)
1. Clerics - As Athas.org presents, except for one thing. None of the clerics in my Dark Sun, regardless of their alignment, can rebuke/control, animate, or create undead. To me, that is an abominable act for all the elements & paraelements, as it makes something that is unnatural, and all of the elements & paraelements, are by their very existence, bastions of nature. That being said, I have clerics of Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Rain be any non-chaotic alignment, while Magma, Silt and Sun can be any non-lawful alignment - to show the attempt to reinstate the natural balance & order of things for the former group, while the freedom and determination to do their own thing, disregarding the natural balance of the elements & paraelements for the latter group.
2. Bards - non-magical, just like athas.org
3. Wizards - As athas.org. I've been a long-time convert to their way of presenting defilers & preservers, love how they do it in it's simplicity and effectiveness, even if it isn't readily visible on paper. wizards are frequently arrested (or simply murdered by stoning or other fun crowd-based attacks) for the crimes of using arcane magic. defilers suffer from this worse than preservers, more often than not.
4. Sorcerers - I don't permit Sorcerers, at least until I can figure out a better way to present them than as in the PHB. to me, arcane magic is far too unnatural to have people born with the ability to use it in their blood.
5. Psions, Wilders, Psychic Warriors - as presented in the XPH, at least until I see how athas.org handles the new versions of these.
6. Rangers - as Athas.org handles them, however I'm also using the non-spellcasting Ranger as presented in the Complete Warrior.
7. Rogues, Fighters, Gladiators, Brutes: As athas.org
8. Druids: As athas.org. However, I've also been looking into some of the variant rules for Druids in Unearthed Arcana.
9. Templars: As athas.org. However templars of an evil Sorcerer-King can rebuke/control undead, as well as animate & create them (and are the only divine spellcasters who can). Templars of good Sorcerer-Kings (well, of Oronis) cannot do this, instead they all turn/destroy undead, like elemental clerics.
10: Nobles: Must take 1 level of Aristocrat at level 1 to be a noble. This does make the character slightly weaker than others, however the trade-off is being a somewhat respectable or important member of society, and not automatically a slave.
11: Monks: While I would love to see the Monk in dark Sun, the one presented as it is in the PHB isn't balanced enough with Dark Sun (yet?) to really be a viable class.
12: Soulblade: Pretty much the same feel as Monks on this one.
13: Commoner: as with the Noble, the character can take a level of commoner in order to keep them out of being a slave. However, they aren't of any worth or importance using this. so far, only (what I call) real roleplayers use this, as other players most often just live with being a slave, or take a level of aristocrat.
14: Paladins: are simply not permitted in my Dark Sun campaigns. I've heard the arguements for bringing something similar to Paladins into existence, however, I think the class needs too much of an overhaul to work to make it worth it, and thus I simply ban them.
(races)
As athas.org has them. I also will permit races that are found in Terrors of Athas, however if they aren't "standard" races, I expect a good backgroun/history for the character as to why & how he came to be in the city (well, I do kinda require that of all of my players anyway).
(equipment)
as athas.org has them. I absolutely love the unique, very athasian feel of the list of weapons provided by athas.org. This, IMHO is one of the best things they did, breaking completely away from the "standard" D&D weapon set, and focusing on weapons that are Athasian. This lets me introduce new equipment, and force the players to be a little confused for a while, but definitely makes a strong impression on them, especially for more melee-type characters. Plus, I can introduce "normal" D&D weapons as something of a rarity, to be valued, and usually not used as a weapon, but rather prized and set up as almost a trophy - as many of these "standard" D&D weapons are, in fact, metal.
I keep metal out of the picture, for the most part, and magical items are almost non-existant, as far as my players are concerned. In their place is a number of psionic items, however they can be restricted in power based on the laws of different cities, so even psionic equipment might not work for them. As such, my players do tend to have much less magical & psionic items than is normally available for D&D.
(prestige classes)
I weigh each prestige class that has been released online or in writing for D&D 3.0 or 3.5, and try to keep them as possibly "acceptable" for Athas.
(abilities)
I strictly use the point-buy system for ability score generation, due to too many experiences with players abusing the system and "fudging" their dice rolls to make super-characters. However, due to the magical item depleation of Dark Sun, and the very difficult world that it is, I feel that people are slightly stronger than other worlds. so, instead of using 25 points as the base for "standard" point-buy, I usually give 35 points instead.
(starting level)
All of my characters start at an effective character level of 3. this means that for characters of races that do not have level adjustments or racial hit dice, they have 3 levels to play with. It also means that Half-giants and Thri-Kreen start out in my campaigns without any class levels.
However, all the characters also only start with the level 1 starting money available to them, rather than level 3. Athas is a poor world in many ways, and most characters are usually starting as slaves. this also significantly restricts the equipment available to my starting characters, which I feel is compensated with the higher ability scores.
(survival in the desert)
I am brutal, and downright lethal to an adventuring group that enters the desert unprepared. I'm only slightly less to those who are prepared. People die in deserts, a lot. Even those of a society and culture that has lived in a desert for thousands of years. Nature is a very demanding and dangerous enemy, and I reflect that in my games. I take heat-caused fatigue and exhaustion to levels of actually being temporary ability damage, as opposed to fading when the character recovers from those conditions. Heat Stroke also happens in my game, which results in the exhaustion damage becoming ability drain, as well as random damage to various mental stats per hour of suffering from Heat Stroke, and the character takes hit point damage as well each minute exposed to heat while suffering from this. Water is essential to keep these at bay - and rapidly depleats unless characters have sufficient ranks in Survival. At night, characters can end up freezing, unless they have adaquite protection from the drop in temperature .
And that's not even mentioning the creatures that roam in the desert.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
10: Nobles: Must take 1 level of Aristocrat at level 1 to be a noble. This does make the character slightly weaker than others, however the trade-off is being a somewhat respectable or important member of society, and not automatically a slave.
What about the noble class from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting? It's similar to the Wheel of Time and Star Wars models.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Then the obvious conclusion is: Paizo failed, despite some posters here and on EN World messageboards are trying to convince me that it is still a D&D setting.
They should have found an alternative way to promote XPH, a D&D core supplement.
Why is the distinction so important to you?
Tell me, what makes a setting a D&D setting?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
10: Nobles: Must take 1 level of Aristocrat at level 1 to be a noble. This does make the character slightly weaker than others, however the trade-off is being a somewhat respectable or important member of society, and not automatically a slave.
The little Noble NPC class I wrote and put up based on I don't remember whose' work (sorry
) had the requirement of being born to a noble family or marrying into one. Do you say that even when marrying one does not gain noble status, but some kind of...courtisan, husband/wife of apparat?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
What about the noble class from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting? It's similar to the Wheel of Time and Star Wars models.
true, but I didn't think that it needs to be a class to itself. I still might. I've tossed this around quite a bit in the past. I still may use the Dragonlance noble. Of course, the biggest obstacle I have about that is - while I have the "Age of Mortals" book, I don't have the Dragonlance Campaign Setting itself. I also don't have the Star Wars: RPG books, or any of the Wheel of Time RPG books. This drastically limits my access to the Noble class all together. However, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting main book is definitely on my "need to get" list, as I like Dragonlance, about as much as I like Dark Sun
Originally posted by Pennarin
The little Noble NPC class I wrote and put up based on I don't remember whose' work (sorry
Do you say that even when marrying one does not gain noble status, but some kind of...courtisan, husband/wife of apparat?
Yep. Look at Sadira - she married a noble, and was treated as the wife of a noble, but not quite a noble herself - despite her attempts to look the part with gaudy, expensive clothing.
Originally posted by MrSpatula
Tell me, what makes a setting a D&D setting?
Appearantly, a Greyhawk clone, using solely the PHB, DMG, & MM. Hmmm, under that definition, does that exclude even the Forgotten Realms from being a D&D world, given the racial changes (afterall, how is changing races much different than changing classes?
)I tend to agree with the view that it's the classes that define the playing world, since all classes are available in any D&D game, but not necessarily in any d20 game.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Mainly because, under the new books, anything can be a player character race. Thanks to Savage Species, you can an ork, troll, dragon, or whatever, character wandering around.
I tend to agree with the view that it's the classes that define the playing world, since all classes are available in any D&D game, but not necessarily in any d20 game.
I'd say that, using this very narrow-minded view, the term "D&D" setting would be any of the tolkein-esque worlds developed (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance), while anything not fitting that description would be only "d20". Of course, this does make things like Ravenloft (which is released as a D&D setting) not completely D&D, but more d20; As is Ghostwalk or Oriental Adventures, which are released as D&D by WotC itself - so, the distinction is a bit flawed. but people apparently need to see a distinction where there really is none. You can't even say that classes define the playing world, as not all classes are available in all settings - look at Dragonlance - for the most part, there are no "Paladins" (sure, you *can* add them in), instead they have their orders of knights. Paladins are really, really dumb for Ravenloft as well. And please point to the Paladin class (not some class that is similar to the Paladin, but the actual Paladin class) in Oriental Adventures. so you can't really, truely use the definition of classes as your basis for what is and isn't D&D.
Greyhawk
Forgotten Realms
Dragonlance
Spelljammer
Red Steel
Birthright
Ravenloft
Planescape
Mystaria
Kara-Tur
Dark Sun
Al-Quadim
Of those, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms & Dragonlance are the closest to being "Tolkien-esque". IIRC (I never played in the settings, but only remember vague impressions of them), Mystaria, red Steel and Birthright are also somewhat close, but not as much as the first three. Kara-Tur was oriental, while Al-Quadim was persian, Ravenloft was horror - and combined parts of the other settings (each dutchy had some basis from each of the other setting that were available at the time it was released, for the most part - a couple of them came from Ravenloft directly, and later more came from Ravenloft after the setting got redesigned, and even more when Sword & Sorcery took over), Spelljammer, Planescape & Dark Sun were extreme examples of deviating from the "typical" Fantasy setting. So, there would have been..... if I'm right aqbout the second group I did, a total of 6 campaign settings in AD&D that were at least close to resembling the typical Tolkien-esque fantasy design. But that leaves 6 that aren't.
Now, true, when Wizards of the Coast took over, they redesigned D&D, and dropped all of the settings besides Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms (and also Dragonlance, but only really in novel form). The rest of them they handed out to fansites to handle the conversion to the new system, with Dark un being handed to athas.org. Later, Sword & Sorcery (a.k.a. White-Wolf) gets permission to publish books for Ravenloft. and even later yet, Sovereign Press (a.k.a. margaret Weis' company) gets permisson to publish Dragonlance books - so those two settings live on through other companies. However the rest still remain with the fansites, except that Dark Sun (and Spelljammer, right?) also got really horrible material for them written in the Dungeon and Dragon magazines that conflicts with virtually everything. But does the fact that WotC doesn't directly support (yet still holds the trademarks & copyrights on) these campaign settings mean that they are any less D&D than other settings?
Personally, I think it's splitting hairs.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
What's funny is that there are an equal number of campaign settings, if not more that aren't quite Tolkien-esque. I'm trying to remember the 2e campaign settings off hand, but I think they were:
You forgot Council of Wryms, Hollow World, Red Death, & whatever the name of the Odyssey setting was
There were a few more, too, but I don't remember them off hand.
However the rest still remain with the fansites, except that Dark Sun (and Spelljammer, right?) also got really horrible material for them written in the Dungeon and Dragon magazines that conflicts with virtually everything. But does the fact that WotC doesn't directly support (yet still holds the trademarks & copyrights on) these campaign settings mean that they are any less D&D than other settings?
Appearantly so. As near as I can tell, D&D means solely GH and maybe FR, if classes is the defining factor (DL can't count, because it adds too many classes).
And yes, SJ also go the Dungeon treatment as well. That's a firestorm in and of itself.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
You forgot Council of Wryms, Hollow World, Red Death, & whatever the name of the Odyssey setting was
Good point, I knew I missed a few. I was taking the list out of my Monsterous Compendium appendices and what settings I could remember beyond that.
the thing is - people who are splitting hairs like this, either did not play D&D when those other settings were around, or never saw them. Either way, it still is closed-minded, and isn't a standard to work as a definition for the term. Instead of an attempt to redefine what D&D is, maybe they should look more into coming up with a better word to describe it.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Good point, I knew I missed a few. I was taking the list out of my Monsterous Compendium appendices and what settings I could remember beyond that.
Just remembered CoW & Oddyssey, then while typing that up, I remembered the others.
the thing is - people who are splitting hairs like this, either did not play D&D when those other settings were around, or never saw them. Either way, it still is closed-minded, and isn't a standard to work as a definition for the term. Instead of an attempt to redefine what D&D is, maybe they should look more into coming up with a better word to describe it.
Agreed 110%. I was attempting to show how ridiculous it was to define "D&D" as something so narrow that only one, arguably part of a second, out of well over a dozen published D&D settings, qualifies for.
All D&D games are d20, but not all d20 games are D&D. d20 is a generic system that utilizes the 20-sided dice and rolling higher is always better (remember the THAC0 - AC deal? Ug, not fun for those of us who suck at math). It was an attempt to make a Hasbro-dominated GURPS-like thing. Their hope was that loads of people would begin making games based on the d20 system (Star Wars, d20 Modern, etc).
Let's get back to a Dark Sun discussion. Athas destroyed? No, but the Paizo version is not an improvement over the Athas.org version, in my opinion, so I'll continue to use the online version. If you like the magazines better, use them. If not, don't.
Stop whiiiiiiiining.
I think this discussion (Dragon/Dungeon) has been played out.Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Let's get back to a Dark Sun discussion. Athas destroyed? No, but the Paizo version is not an improvement over the Athas.org version, in my opinion, so I'll continue to use the online version. If you like the magazines better, use them. If not, don't.
Hmmm, just thought of something...how do you destroy a world that's nothing but ruins...:D
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
He'd better hide, cause where could he run? There's nothing but desert out there...
Heh, you forget, I crafted athesian spelljammers...I can still flee into space! (what good *that* would do me I'm not certain...:D )
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
the thing is - people who are splitting hairs like this, either did not play D&D when those other settings were around, or never saw them. Either way, it still is closed-minded, and isn't a standard to work as a definition for the term.
Eh, ok fine, I'm close-minded and splitting hairs. I'll at least agree with the splitting hairs thing, but I think it's neccessary where Dark Sun is concerned.
As for the close mindedness, well sorry you think that, that's your opinion anyways.
As for the former, I was around when all those settings were around and did play in several of them. Sure it was all D&D then, but that was because D20/D&D 3e changed things and redefined them. The more rules you change, the further you are getting away from D&D IMO and closer to the core D20 system. It's a very fine distinction, but a distinction none the less.
So sue me for splitting hairs. :P
He'd better hide, cause where could he run? There's nothing but desert out there...
As for this, don't forget there's a load of people-eating cactii out there.
Dark Sun: It's all about the cactii (Doomspike waits for you in the wastes, my friend. Doomspike waits...).
Sure, even back in 2nd AD&D, Dark Sun and Planescape used AD&D rules, but they were completely different games because of the setting and the feeling. To me D&D is more a generic encompassment (not even sure if that is a word) of the basic game itself. Exclusive of any world views or feelings involved. "Lets make fighters, wizards and clerics, delve some dungeons, kill some orcs".. thats D&D.
But when anyone said "I got me a Half Giant Gladiator here ready to go" There was no doubt in anyone's mind that someone wanted to play DarkSun (Or Planescape, but thats besides the point, since in my PS campaigns, I allowed pretty much anything from any other setting)
What is so special about the Realms? Not much. Dragonlands had it's own distinction as well, but it had it's own different Races. Even without the Half Giants, people knew you were talking Dark Sun when you mentioned preservers, defilers, psionicists, etc. .
But this whole argument of "Thats not D&D" or what not is ludicrous, it's all D&D. It's just not all Generic D&D. Which is what you get when you play exclusivly with PHB, DMG, MM. When you get into specific worldviews or mindsets, thats when you get into Darksun, or Planescape, or Birthright, or Dragonlance has a lot of similar classes and races to the realms, but the disctinction is in world view, not the races and classes allowed.
Planescape can allow potentially any race/class combo you can think of, but it is the planar mindset and factions and worldview in general that defines Planescape.
In any case. Athas is not destroyed. It's been happening since the beginning. A Game company comes out with what has to be cutting edge gaming material, but in reality it stinks, so people ignore it. Eventually it gets picked apart, the good stuff gets adopted and the rest simply goes away, sucked into the portal leading to the quasi-inner plane of bad ideas.
Use what you like. Change what you don't like. No one destroying anything, because ultimately it's your choice to use it or not.
Let's see D20 is a mechanic that has classes, BAB, 3 types of saves, skills and feats. A d20 is used for base result determination and higher is always better.
D&D is a d20 system that has AC and a unique (good or bad) spell system.
Now when UA (Unearthed Arcana) came out these core D&D concepts went out the window because they introduced variants to them all.
Everything that Athas.org has done was IAW with D&D. The core books talked about how to develop variants on races or create new races, they talked about how to change the 'core' classes and make them different. They talked about how to claculate level adjustment (and in 3.5 actually tried to define it) and so on.
If the comment is referring to D&D as being the default setting (i.e. GreyHawk) that is a different thing. But GreyHawk is not D&D it is simply the default setting.
What Paizo has done and said they were attempting to do was to create a 'generic' version of Dark Sun. One that can pretty much be dropped into any exisiting tabletop (or real close to it) and one that was designed to be strongly compatable with Forgotten Realms and Grey Hawk.
I personally feel that what makes a setting unique whether Dark Sun or my other favorite, Birthright, are the differences between the 'core default world' and the setting. If I wanted to play Forgotten Realms I would be.
Originally posted by irdeggman
D&D versus d20 hmmm
Let's see D20 is a mechanic that has classes, BAB, 3 types of saves, skills and feats. A d20 is used for base result determination and higher is always better.
D&D is a d20 system that has AC and a unique (good or bad) spell system.
Now when UA (Unearthed Arcana) came out these core D&D concepts went out the window because they introduced variants to them all.
Which was good. After all, part of the d20 system is technically a reliance on the D&D PHB, unless it's another game published by Wizards of the Coast. UA helped clear the field a bit, and made it slightly easier to release variant mechanics for other publishers in their own d20 setting games.
Everything that Athas.org has done was IAW with D&D. The core books talked about how to develop variants on races or create new races, they talked about how to change the 'core' classes and make them different. They talked about how to claculate level adjustment (and in 3.5 actually tried to define it) and so on.
agreed.
If the comment is referring to D&D as being the default setting (i.e. GreyHawk) that is a different thing. But GreyHawk is not D&D it is simply the default setting.
True. Now, the Greyhawk material isn't included in te SRD, however the d20 isn't the SRD, but the SRD is basically the core mechanics for it.
What Paizo has done and said they were attempting to do was to create a 'generic' version of Dark Sun. One that can pretty much be dropped into any exisiting tabletop (or real close to it) and one that was designed to be strongly compatable with Forgotten Realms and Grey Hawk.
As I said, they took the vanilla D&D game, and colored it with a Dark Sun-style paintset. It wasn't Dark Sun. It has similarities, but it isn't the same thing. 300 years into the future or not.
b[]I personally feel that what makes a setting unique whether Dark Sun or my other favorite, Birthright, are the differences between the 'core default world' and the setting. If I wanted to play Forgotten Realms I would be. [/b]
Agreed.