How do you feel about that?
How do you convert levels from the 0D&D products to 3E D&D?
In Gaz. 3 a magic-user is an apprentice at the Great School of Magic until he reaches 9th level at which time he graduates and qualifies for nobility (if anyone will sponsor him).
At what level should a Glantrian wizard graduate from the GSoM in 3E D&D?
Personally, I have alway liked that the Glantrians call an apprentice or a student is the equivalent of a full-fledged wizard in many other nations!
:-) Jesper
The RC suggests the following conversions between OD&D and AD&D:
OD&D LVL AD&D LVL
1-13 Same
Every 3 lvls +1 lvl
This means that a 36th level OD&D character would be a 20th/21st level AD&D character.
We could go for the same for 3e characters. Even though I see some problems with this, it saves us the trouble of having to deal with Epic Character rules.
OTOH, we could go for 1 for 1 level conversions, making a 36th level OD&D characer a 3 e character with 20 levels + 16 Epic Levels. The problem with this is that that would make about half of Mystaras known characters really badass Epic Characters.
What do you think?
Havard
I haven't got the Epic Rules (or whatever they are called) but one of my group's players read them and said that they are ridiculesly powerful. Something about a 30th level wizard casting Tensers Transformation and gaining +16 str and I don't know what else...
I think I may have to do my own little change to the rules to create 20+ level characters but in a more balanced way than the Epic Rules. After all, a 20th level 3E D&D wizard with only 4 spells of each level/day is (although still a bad motherf...) nowhere near as powerful as a 36th level 0D&D magic-user with 9 spells of each level/day.
On the other hand, 3E D&D fighters seem more powerful to me than their 0D&D counterparts (hit dice for all levels, lots of feats etc.)
:-) Jesper
My solution (for better or worse) is as follows. Find the average maximum XP across all clases for either 2E or OD&D. Secondly, find the percentage of this average max XP to the pcs (or npc) current XP. Thirdly multiply the percentage at the max 3E XP level.
what this does is find how far the pc has traveled to the maximum 20th level XP.
For example (figures not accurate as I don't have any books handy)
If OD&D has the following 36th level XP marks
MU 3,000,000
F 2,500,000
T 2,600,000
Average: 2,700,000
Now is a pc has 400,000 XP then the percentage is 14.8% So if max 20th level XP is 500,000 then the pc will have 0.148 * 500,000 = 74,000
Now you may find that this drops the pc to a much lower level than intended. If this is the case then drop the average XP in step one. The whole point is to put all pc's on an equal basis before putting them across to 3E.
OD&D Level D&D 3.x Level
1-15 1-15
16-17 16
18-19 17
20-21 18
22-23 19
24-25 20
26-27 21
28-29 22
30-31 23
32-33 24
34-35 25
36 26
The rationale was one that came up during discussions on the 3E conversion project (when I was still involved with it). The argument was something like- levels 1-14 map out to the Basic and Expert sets, levels 16-25 were the Companions set, and 26-36 were the Masters set (Masters set being sort of equivalent to the Epic levels of 3E, under this argument).
Now, I think the 3E guys officially adopted a 2-1 conversion from 15th level onwards (leaving 35-36th level equal to level 25 Epic). Again, this was a topic of much discussion, and the argument in favor of the way I did it (which I eventually decided seemed cool to me) is that- a, 26-36 thus map out to Epic levels, and it gives a 36th level PC (who is the most powerful) a little "boost" for having that extra level.
Of course, these are just guidelines, and certain NPCs I've converted don't match up exactly (for instance, Barimoor, IMO, is much higher than 26th level- he is one of the highest level NPCs on the planet of Mystara, IMO, along with Haptuthep, the Nithian/Thothian Lich of the IoD).
As for the demihumans, these are the conversions I use:
Elf
OD&D 3E
1 2
2 3
3 4
4 5/6
5 7
6 8
7 9
8 10/11
9 12
10 13
D 14
E 15/16
F 17
G 18
H 19
I 20/21
J 22
K 23
L 24/25
M 26
Now, the elf (to me) is pretty straightforward. Yes, experience point wise the Atk Rank M elf is only equal to a 33rd level fighter or so, or a 28th level wizard, but it has the spellcasting of a 10th level wizard and the fighting ability of a 25-27th level fighter, so it seems roughly equal (and a 1st level elf in OD&D definitely has the abilities roughly equal to a second level character, IMO). Anyway, the overall goal with my conversion (and the chief argument that won me over in the 3E discussion) was the idea of keeping things level- ignoring xp (otherwise the wizard is the guy that gets screwed, mathematically, or else supremely boosted, depending how you look at it), and- especially where the demihumans are concerned, making sure that they are roughly equal across the board- if you do an xp conversion or just a level to level conversion, the demihumans at their maximum attack ranks will end up slightly below the humans.
Hence my dwarves and halflings. The dwarves are roughly equal to fighters across the board, but they max out at attack rank M with less experience than a 36th level fighter. It was rough for me to make an attack rank M dwarf equal to a level 26 fighter in 3E terms, but in the interest (again) of evening things out for everyone, I went ahead and did this conversion.
Dwarf
OD&D Level 3E Level
1-12 1-12
D 13
E 14
F 15/16
G 17
H 18/19
I 20
J 21/22
K 23
L 24/25
M 26
The halfling is just as much of a tough call, but in the end I opted for the conversion above. An alternate conversion for these two might consist of continuing their Attack Rank progression (bringing the Halflings to L and M, and stretching out their conversion progression; and adding N, O, P, and Q to the Dwarves, and bringing their conversion to a 1-1).
Halfling
OD&D Level 3E Level
1-8 1-8
B 9
C 10/11
D 12/13
E 14/15
F 16/17
G 18/19
H 20/21
I 22/23
J 24/25
K 26
Another alternative is to use the 36 level xp progression charts from the Cyclopedia, p. 266, and just using the human conversion charts, but then you have to do some recalculating of a lot of NPCs in OD&D terms (King Doriath is what level elf on these charts?).
That's my method.
Thanks for sharing your conversion rules. IMO they work much better than the RC ones I suggested. Also, generating an NPC with 6 Epic levels doesnt seem as unbalanced as one with 26 of them. I also like the comparison between Master level characters and Epic Characters.
Jesper:
Epic characters aren't unbalanced IMO. Once you get beyond 20th level, you are supposed to be über-cool. Id be really disappointed if I got there and realized I was still just an average Joe. Check out WW's Exalted for ideas on how to run an Epic Level campaign.
Havard
Really like the conversion guidelines you posted. Seems fair and balanced to me and I am really looking forward to getting all of those NPC conversions from the Gazetteers done (see ya in a couple of years, guys :D )
Like I said, Havard, I haven't read the Epic rules but what my player related to me sounded like some of the totally out-of-balance stuff that you'll sometimes find on the Internet. (found a dwarven trollslayer PrestigeClass once that got Truestrike against all trolls at 2nd level... ) I'll have to get a copy of the book and judge for myself.
I agree that highlevel characters should be able to kick some butt, especially since dragons and giants and other monsters have gotten far more lethal since the good ol' 0D&D days.
On the other hand, the world needs to be balanced. If being just slightly above level 20 means that you can cast level 10+ spells and cause minor cataclysms then no thank you! Some years back I DMed a group including a 33rd level thief, 34th level fighter, 29th level magic-user and a 31st level druid (0D&D). It took them 5½ years of realtime gaming to get that far but in the end there was naught left but demigods to challenge them and so we retired their characters into legend.
My point is that Epic power should be available to PCs and NPCs alike but getting it should not be as common as level 20+ characters after all are in the Known World...
:-) Jesper