I just do not feel the excitement that was inherent during the battles between the fellowship and Takhisis. I mean do not get me wrong I really like the 5th Age but can we have more detail a bit more than just corny behind Mina and the one armed moronic minotaur ?
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Does the 5th Age of Krynn leave you with an empty feeling ?
No.
Cheers,
Cam
That is what I love about gaming, you can change what you want to. So our timeline will follow a different path at the end of Summer Flame.
For instance, I find myself bored to death hearing about the Elves and their secluded ways(I hate Gilthas with a passion.), although I find Gerard and Odila to be interesting. I also find Mina to be extremely boring as a character...heck there is a Mina hate thread going on in the Dragonlance.com forums.
I enjoy Palin and Dalamar very much and wish they would have more about them.
~~~
Originally posted by Maladaar
Sorry to say this, but I just did not get into the War of Souls. I literally had to force myself to read the three books.
The elves & Mina are the bane of the WoS for me(But that is another story that cannot be told here.). I love the WoS and thus the products that stem from the novel but they just do not have the flair that the ages before had.
~~~
Not empty at all.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Anywhere that I can find a list of the Age of Mortals novels ?
Kang's Regiment
Doom Brigade
Draconian Measures
Bridges of Time
Spirit of the Wind
Legacy of Steel
Silver Stair
Dezra's Quest
Rose and the Skull
Dragons of a New Age
Dawning of a New Age
Day of the Tempest
Eve of the Maelstrom
Crossroads
Clandestine Circle
Theives Guild
Dragon's Bluff
Dragon Isles
Middle of Nowhere
Dhamon Saga
Downfall
Betrayal
Redemption
Age of Mortals
Conundrum
The Lioness
Dark Thane
Prisoner of Haven
Wizards Conclave
Lake of Death
War of Souls
Dragons of a Fallen Sun
Dragons of a Lost Star
Dragons of a Vanished Moon
Lisha Trilogy
City of the Lost
Minotaur Wars
Night of Blood
Tides of Blood
Empire of Blood
Anthologies
Heroes and Fools
Relics and Omens
Rebels and Tyrants
Search for Magic
Players of Gilean
Search for Power
Bertrem's Guides
Bertrem's Guide to Everyday Life in the Age of Mortals
Bertrem's Guide to Everyday Life in the War of Souls, Vol. 1
Bertrem's Guide to Everyday Life in the War of Souls, Vol. 2
Reader's Companion
The Odyssey of Gilthanas
~~~
Bertrem's Guide to the Age of Mortals.
Bertrem's Guide to the War of Souls: Volume 1
Bertrem's Guide to the War of Souls: Volume 2
Originally posted by Nived
You forgot Bertrem's guides series
Bertrem's Guide to the Age of Mortals.
Bertrem's Guide to the War of Souls: Volume 1
Bertrem's Guide to the War of Souls: Volume 2
D'oh! And another one too...I'll add them both.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I am not saying that it is a bad age to set a campaign in just that it does not seem to have the flavor that the earlier ages does.
For some, myself included, an injection of new flavor was needed to keep my interest in the setting.
The HotL get old, the gods battling gets old... You get the idea.
But if anything, alot of the focus of the SAGA game material was that it not only added things, but fleshed them out as well.
The HotL get old, the gods battling gets old... You get the idea.
Heck yeah.
One of the things that was good about the 5th age was that Takhisis finally croaked!
I mean the whole always doing something evil and always having some dumb
doomed to fail plan was so old and tired. She definitely needed a hobby. 
My only hope is that Mina will croak as well. :D
~~~
Originally posted by Brimstone
Minotaur Wars
Night of Blood
Tides of Blood
(can't remember the third one)
The third Minotaur Wars novel is to be called Empire of Blood.
There is also a Rise of Solamnia series: the first, called Lord of the Rose, is out in November.
Originally posted by cnposner
The third Minotaur Wars novel is to be called Empire of Blood.
There is also a Rise of Solamnia series: the first, called Lord of the Rose, is out in November.
That doesn't sound like an book based in the Age of Mortals...that sounds more like a book based in the Age of Dreams. Is it a new PHB & TCC book?
~~~
That doesn't sound like an book based in the Age of Mortals...that sounds more like a book based in the Age of Dreams. Is it a new PHB & TCC book?
According to a blurb published on the dragonlance.com form on novels, at http://forums.dragonlance.com/discussions.cfm?forumid=2&topicid=27265 Lord of the Rose is set "in the wake of the War of Souls."
The blurb is as follows:-
Lord of the Rose (Rise of Solamnia - Volume One - Nolvember 2004) by Douglas Niles
In the wake of the War of Souls, the realms of Solamnia are wracked with strife and internecine warfare, and dire external threats lurk on its borders. A young lord, marked by courage and fatefall flaws, emerges from the Hinterlands. His vow: he will unite the factious reaches of the ancient Knighthood - or die in the attempt.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Is the 2nd Minotaur Wars book out yet my wife loves that trilogy.
~~~
Yup, it came out last month, I've seen it at my local book store, just haven't bought it yet.
Originally posted by Darlantan
Yup, it came out last month, I've seen it at my local book store, just haven't bought it yet.
Where did you see it ? My wife is suffering withdrawal from not having her Minotaur Wars fix. :D
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where did you see it ? My wife is having suffering withdrawal from not having her Minotaur Wars fix. :D
~~~
Well, I live up in Canada, we had it at my local Chapters book store. I guess that would be our answer to your Barnes and Nobles.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where did you see it ? My wife is having suffering withdrawal from not having her Minotaur Wars fix. :D
~~~
Got mine through Amazon.com. Both Mystic Warrior (Bronze Canticles volume I) and Tides of Blood arrived around the same time, so I had to decide. I’ve been waiting for Bronze Canticles for a long time (and needed a DL break), so I went with that.
Can’t wait to get to Tides of Blood, though.
Originally posted by cnposner
According to a blurb published on the dragonlance.com form on novels, Lord of the Rose is set after the War of Souls.
I can't find the blurb. Do you have a link? (it's not on the WotC site either...although a Best of Weis and Hickman 20th Anniversary thing is...I wonder if that's all their short stories or something)
EDIT Okay, I see you edited your post. Thanks! That is good news.
Originally posted by Darlantan
Well, I live up in Canada, we had it at my local Chapters book store. I guess that would be our answer to your Barnes and Nobles.
We hit B&N and Waldenbooks and neither of the chains had the book. Borders is going to be our next stop.
~~~
Originally posted by talinthas
Tides of Blood was remarkably dissapointing, and the Hickman book couldnt hold my interest past the prologue. i'm kinda sad.
Nothing can live up to Darkness & Light, huh Tal? ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Actually, i'm really interested in where tides of blood will be going, but as with War of Souls, i'm not too keen on how it's getting there.
As far as Mystic Warrior goes, i didn't really give it a fair shake. i only have so much money for books on my college income, so i read it while waiting in line at borders to buy tides. i'm gonna give it a thorough read through once the term is done (and i graduate, with my (useless?) english degree). I've never really been partial to Fae, but i'll give it a chance, since i'm enough of a W&H fanboy to at least read everything they write =)
Hey, it makes for good conversation when i meet them at cons. =)
I am sure there are some very good stories written about the 5th Age. I just never liked the ending of Summer Flame (those of you that have read it, or that are into 5th Age, know what I am talking about).
Mina as a character irks me, I just never bought into it.
That being said, lets go ahead and move onto the goodness question. I think there's a lot of good content in some of the 5th age novels. Kang's Regiment is great (Draconian Measures is one of my favorite Dragonlance novels period), some of the Bridges of Time series are really good, the Age of Mortals series has been really good so far (I mean that as the books under the Age of Mortals subset title).
Don't get me wrong. I'll probably never run a game that takes place durring the time between the Chaos War and the War of Souls, but there ARE some good books set there.
This was after a friend of mine raved about how great those books were. I know for a fact that there must be some good books out there about the 5th Age. I love everything that Knaack writes and I see he has written/is writing books for 5th Age and I don't doubt they are good.
I just really don't like where everything has lead to starting at the end of the Chaos Wars. The whole "feel" of DL changes at that point (at least for me).
Originally posted by cnposner
There is also a Rise of Solamnia series: the first, called Lord of the Rose, is out in November. [/b]
The latest word from the grapevine (ie, WotC catalogs and the WotC website) is that this book is not going to get printed this year.
Things could change still, but as of right now, we don't know when/where it's going to officially show up again on the schedule.
Originally posted by talinthas
Tides of Blood was remarkably dissapointing, and the Hickman book couldnt hold my interest past the prologue. i'm kinda sad.
You cannot be serious. My wife is fiending for this book and your saying it is corny ?
~~~
Originally posted by Nived
Shhhhhhhhh Sil, are you nuts, you know what a shipped release date does on these forums.
heh heh
It wouldn't be the first time a novel got delayed. It happens all the time (although not as often as back in the late TSR days). Middle of Nowhere disappeared for about a year and a half.
But...just because it's not on the WotC schedule on line yet, doesn't mean it won't be. But the Dragonlance printing schedule is pretty full at the end of the year from September to December with Elven Nations, Lake of Death, Best of W&H, and book 3 of the Ergothian trilogy. And books 3 and 4 of the young readers series. So, they probably just pushed it off until next year.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Ok so we are getting the second part to the AoM campaign modules in what November ?
I have no idea...I was just talking about Novels...which I know we aren't technically supposed to do...but this is WotC's boards, and it is WotC's schedule...and they did just release the last quarter schedule last week...so I figured it was okay to mention it.
I think that Dhamon got very close to dethroning Tanis as my favorite character ever...close...but no cigar.
Originally posted by Nived
I believe Dhamon is suposed to have a part in the upcoming Lake of Death. He wont be the focus but he'll be in it.
He is definately the focus...he's even the focus on the cover...along with a black dragon in the background. (I assume "black" and not "shadow" because it has the forward pointing "teeth" on the end of the nose like we've seen several times for Onyx, even once by Stawicki) It's being dubbed on the WotC website as the "unofficial sequal to the Dhamon Saga."
Originally posted by Nived
Ah, I guess I was misinformed.
Well...I don't know...who informed you and what did they say? (WotC's synopses aren't always the most accurate)
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Does the 5th Age of Krynn leave you with an empty feeling ?
I just do not feel the excitement that was inherent during the battles between the fellowship and Takhisis. I mean do not get me wrong I really like the 5th Age but can we have more detail a bit more than just corny behind Mina and the one armed moronic minotaur ?
~~~
I think I know what you mean. I had to force myself through the War of Souls as well. I found the books uninspiring and mostly bland. The characters and story where just lacking in my opinion. Takhisis stealing the world. Alien dragons. Raistlin finds the world but the credit is later giving to Goldmoon’s final prayer. Pointless deaths for most of the remaining Companions. I really dislike all of these things.
The DLCS book was just empty for a campaign setting. I felt ripped off. The Age of Mortals book was great but still lacking in content in my opinion. The DM Screen was alright and from what I hear the Bestiary is the best DL gaming book out thus far. I look forward to getting it soon.
Originally posted by talinthas
As far as Mystic Warrior goes, i didn't really give it a fair shake.
I highly suggest you do. I'm about 100 pages from the end (give or take) and I haven't been able to put it down (so to speak). I did stall out for about 3 days when it switched from the human realm to the faery realm...but then when I started reading again...I did 300 pages in 2 days (which is good...considering the amount of free time I have) heh heh...it helped that I was sick those two days, too.
The book and the worlds and the magic and how they all inter-relate (and the way it's written like it's a translation from a much more ancient text)...it's all brilliant and really fresh...and it's got me more excited than any book for along time. Good stuff.
One question though (to keep this semi-DL related). In Dragonlance there are the Kyrie...in Veskot there are the Kyree. Both are flying, feathered humaonids (although one has 4 appendiges and one has 6, respectively). My question is...is there a kyrie or kyree type creature in earth mythology somewhere that I've missed? Where does this term come from? Anyone know?
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I think I know what you mean. I had to force myself through the War of Souls as well. I found the books uninspiring and mostly bland. The characters and story where just lacking in my opinion. Takhisis stealing the world. Alien dragons. Raistlin finds the world but the credit is later giving to Goldmoon’s final prayer. Pointless deaths for most of the remaining Companions. I really dislike all of these things.
The DLCS book was just empty for a campaign setting. I felt ripped off. The Age of Mortals book was great but still lacking in content in my opinion. The DM Screen was alright and from what I hear the Bestiary is the best DL gaming book out thus far. I look forward to getting it soon.
Yeah Takhisis was just getting on my nerves, and it was not that healthy hate for bad guys thing that a fan usually has. Takhisis was just extremely irritating with the whole "I am evil for no reason".
It was time for her to go. I think that it is way past time for the elves to go as well. The elves are waaay too corny with their isolationist tactics. I think Silvanoshei spoiled the Dragonlance elves for me(Along with Palthanon, Alhana, Kiryn.). I mean I totally hated when everyone is lying for that punk Silvanoshei. I would have sent Samar after him to kill him instead of rescue him.
~~~
Mina as a character irks me, I just never bought into it.
YES. She is definitely corny as can be. Who cares if she has amber eyes and a caesar cut(Did you see that retarded picture of her in the AoM book ?) ? Big deal.
~~~
Originally posted by Brimstone
One question though (to keep this semi-DL related). In Dragonlance there are the Kyrie...in Veskot there are the Kyree. Both are flying, feathered humaonids (although one has 4 appendiges and one has 6, respectively). My question is...is there a kyrie or kyree type creature in earth mythology somewhere that I've missed? Where does this term come from? Anyone know?
Kyrie is a word in Latin which means "lord" or "master". It's most often used in the phrase kyrie eleison, or "Lord have mercy", usually invoked as part of sacred music or liturgical song. It's also the title of my favorite Mister Mister song from the 80's.
No real association with feathers, but perhaps it's an angelic reference.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No real association with feathers, but perhaps it's an angelic reference.
Maybe so. I guess he just liked the name they came up with for the DL birdmen (although correct me if I'm wrong...but I think the aarakockra showed up first, didn't it...like in DL7-ish?
Anyway...maybe I'll just purpose the question over at the BC boards...find out his inspiration first hand.
Thanks for the info, Cam.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Maybe so. I guess he just liked the name they came up with for the DL birdmen (although correct me if I'm wrong...but I think the aarakockra showed up first, didn't it...like in DL7-ish?
Yeah, somewhere in the middle there. Aarakocra are, of course, creatures from 1st edition AD&D's Fiend Folio in 1981, and not DL (or FR, for that matter) natives.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's also the title of my favorite Mister Mister song from the 80's.
That's one of my faves too.
So is the word kyrie pronounced like it is in the song?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
That's one of my faves too.
So is the word kyrie pronounced like it is in the song?
It's pronounced "keer-ee-ay", officially, but this is Dragonlance so it's whatever you like it. I think in my head I pronounce it "keery" which is close enough.
Cheers,
Cam
The "y" becomes a long 'i' vowel sound and the "ie" and "ee" become a long 'e' vowel sound. Effectively becoming:
KIE-ree (rhymes with "tie me")
Originally posted by Darlantan
Well, I live up in Canada, we had it at my local Chapters book store. I guess that would be our answer to your Barnes and Nobles.
Yuppers, I live in Maryland, and picked up Tides about 2 weeks ago. However, NO ONE in my area has or can get in a reasonable amount of time the Bestiary of Krynn. Best offer I got was ordering it, and hoping it would arrive in 5 days, as it would ship from the nearest warehouse that has any copies.... in Tennessee! That's checking with local hobby stores, Barnes & Noble, B Dalton (Barnes & Noble subsidiary), Books A Million, Joe Muggs (BAM subsidiary), and Walden Books.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
YES. She is definitely corny as can be. Who cares if she has amber eyes and a caesar cut(Did you see that retarded picture of her in the AoM book ?) ? Big deal.
~~~
I'll be very interested to see just how you feel about Mina after reading AMBER & ASHES. War of Souls showed a very external view of Mina, with only a few glimpses to what she was thinking and feeling. You'll get a more intimate view of Krynn's most powerful cleric in the new novel. We will also have the Dark Disciple trilogy's characters in the upcoming HOLY ORDERS OF THE STARS. Only a few months to go.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by jechambers
I'll be very interested to see just how you feel about Mina after reading AMBER & ASHES. War of Souls showed a very external view of Mina, with only a few glimpses to what she was thinking and feeling. You'll get a more intimate view of Krynn's most powerful cleric in the new novel. We will also have the Dark Disciple trilogy's characters in the upcoming HOLY ORDERS OF THE STARS. Only a few months to go.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Is this Amber & Ashes out in the stores yet ?
~~~
While philosophically either choice may be viable, from the gaming standpoint Krynn in the 4th Age was static and needed a change.As the designers have said, much of the 5th Age has focused on breathing life back into DL--life which includes by default glaring imperfections such as the ignoble or mundane deaths of people we like, alien/outside forces that you don't want to deal with being thrust upon you (like work & taxes), and in general change for better or for worse.
I think what smarts the most is having the "ideal" Krynn taken away, in that the official present of DL has moved beyond the 4th Age and entered murky waters; afterall, how romantic is it to escape into a fantasy world that sucks just like real life? (And let's face it, Summer Flame didn't exactly ease us into all of this!) The core issue seems to be whether you think/feel that the "ideal" Krynn should have been left alone to go on whispering from the shelf as it was (what's that quote again?) or you agree with the decision that it be injected with some realism to go on living and adapting.
The design team obviously made their decision, but they've tried to show that they are understanding of the 4th Age/5th Age, tastes great/less filling discussion. Hopefully they will recapture the "ideal" of the 4th Age in the WotL supplement.
As for the recent "gaming storyline" (not to be confused with the "novels" which aren't to be overly discussed here) being good or bad, I think they have a hint of "okay now how are we going to pull all this **** together" to them, but to authors' credit there really is quite a lot of stuff to pull together. Still, I'm certainly looking forward to Weis's Mina trilogy, and Douglas Niles is terrific...I think in the end they (everyone) will pull off the new vibe well.
PS (Where is Tracy Hickman again?)
oops! third paragraph. i didn't mean to imply that 5th age sucks or anything!! was just exaggerating. sorry. (don't know how to do that edit thing.)I have been to other boards and seen people that have made up a "I hate Mina" groups. She is such a weak character and the whole fanaticism edge is so played out. Now one of the characters that I actually liked was Steel BrightBlade and bam he dies quick as all get out.
Why kill him and go through three books with a weakling such as Silvanoshei ? Why center on Mina constantly when it is known that she is corny as heck ?
I did not want Tanis and the crew to hang around(It was time for them to croak.) but the newer characters that could have given the 5th Age some life are not being centered on.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Is this Amber & Ashes out in the stores yet ?
~~~
AMBER & ASHES is Margaret's newest novel, and will release in August of this year.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Why kill him and go through three books with a weakling such as Silvanoshei ? Why center on Mina constantly when it is known that she is corny as heck ?
You're missing out on a lot of history there, bud. I'll try to summarize.
Steel Brightblade first shows up (along with Gilthas, Tanin, Sturm, and Palin) in The Second Generation. Which was an anthology of novellas from the previous three Tales books plus two new stories...essentially setting up Dragons of Summer Flame.
Originally, it was supposed to be a Chronicles II trilogy...but for reasons that I don't know but can guess at (because TSR was going under at the time) it was brought down from above that it can no longer be a trilogy, it must be one book.
That is why it feels so rushed. That's why (I assume) that two of my favorite potential characters die before the book even starts (Tanin and Sturm...although, perhaps this was inteneded all along).
And to say that the 5th Age centers on Mina and the elves...which are things people hate, it not only sounds ignorant...but...I mean...sorry, it's not even a remotely logical thought.
One trilogy of the 5th Age has Mina as a major player. And in this great war she's conducting...both elven nations are "destroyed." Four books...out of 33 current books set in the 5th Age (through the end of this year)...that's hardly "centering on Mina and the elves."
As for the "hate the elves and Mina" thing...well...I don't know if it's true or not...but there's no way you can know either, so to imply most of the Dragonlance fan base feel that way is a lot more than you should do. There are obviously people that do...but its impossible to tell if it's "most." (personally...I doubt it is...it's not even "most" people on-line)
All that being said...I am one of the fans that "hates" Mina...but that's "hate" in a good sorta you're-supposed-to-hate-the-bad-guys way. And because of that...I think Mina is one of the strongest characters Margaret and Tracy have ever written. I feel such a strong hatred for her...I've never felt that kind of passion for any character, good or bad, in any novel prior to these. Although my disgust for Silvanoshei is a close second. ;) But again...that's the point. You should hate Mina and her single mindedness, although perhaps feel some pity for her...at least until the end. And you should be disgusted by Silvanoshei and his abaondoment of his people and his possition for a crush. I don't think these are characters you're supposed to like...and certainly I hope you can't empathize with them.
But...after all that...it doesn't even matter. They aren't the focus of the 5th Age...hell, they're not even the premise behind it. They're just one more page in the story of the Age of Mortals (albeit a world changing page).
You're missing out on a lot of history there, bud. I'll try to summarize.
Steel Brightblade first shows up (along with Gilthas, Tanin, Sturm, and Palin) in The Second Generation. Which was an anthology of novellas from the previous three Tales books plus two new stories...essentially setting up Dragons of Summer Flame.
I was aware of this. As a matter-of-fact Steel BrightBlade is on the cover of 2nd Generation. Know this, Steel BrightBlade's time in the 5th Age in no way amounts to the huge amount of time spent focusing on the moronic character known as Mina.
And to say that the 5th Age centers on Mina and the elves...which are things people hate, it not only sounds ignorant...but...I mean...sorry, it's not even a remotely logical thought.
According to whom yourself ? Please let me know when your personal opinion began mattering to me ?
But again...that's the point. You should hate Mina and her single mindedness,
Thank you for instructing me on what Ishould hate. Next time I make a decision I shall be sure to log on first and consult Brimstone before making the decision.
CONCLUSION: You like Mina as a character, I don't like Mina as a character. Period.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I was aware of this. As a matter-of-fact Steel BrightBlade is on the cover of 2nd Generation. Know this, Steel BrightBlade's time in the 5th Age in no way amounts to the huge amount of time spent focusing on the moronic character known as Mina.
That wasn't my point...my point was explaining why Steel didn't get a whole trilogy. That's all.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
According to whom yourself ?
No...I just proved it. The 5th Age doesn't center around Mina and the elves...unless you consider 12% "centering."
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Thank you for instructing me on what Ishould hate.
You're welcome.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
CONCLUSION: You like Mina as a character, I don't like Mina as a character. Period.
~~~
Just like some people like d20 Modern... and some don't. Period.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Just like some people like d20 Modern... and some don't. Period.
Yeah...but you didn't arbitrarily select the term "most" where it would suit your argument.
By the way...how is this related? Is there a huge pro/anti d20 Modern debate going on or something?
According to whom yourself ? Please let me know when your personal opinion began mattering to me ?
This is great, coming from a fellow who's signature is solely occupied by personal opinion.
It seems as if you only spew forth negativity, and it's rather grating on the nerves of anyone who sets an eye on your posts, I'd imagine. For the love of Jeff, please, if you like Dragonlance, then make it seem as so.
As it is, it seems you simply dislike everything the name has become...and if this is so, then leave. Go play V:TM, or something.
By the way...how is this related? Is there a huge pro/anti d20 Modern debate going on or something?
It is not related and d20 modern has nothing to do with Dragonlance which is what this board should be focused on.
~~~
Originally posted by Ashaman Nash
As it is, it seems you simply dislike everything the name has become...and if this is so, then leave. Go play V:TM, or something.
Co-sign.
Originally posted by Ashaman Nash
This is great, coming from a fellow who's signature is solely occupied by personal opinion.
Which is why it is in my signature and not your signature.
It seems as if you only spew forth negativity, and it's rather grating on the nerves of anyone who sets an eye on your posts, I'd imagine. For the love of Jeff, please, if you like Dragonlance, then make it seem as so.
I suppose you have not seen the numerous posts I have made within this forum about my own Dragonlance campaign which I am running ? Know this, Just because one likes the Dragonlance campaign does not mean that they should automatically like everything about it nor does it mean that they should agree with everyone else that plays Dragonlance, etc.
If you do not like what I write then do not set an eye on my posts. It's that simple.
As it is, it seems you simply dislike everything the name has become...and if this is so, then leave. Go play V:TM, or something.
The simple fact that I play Dragonlance and have in my signature that it is a good setting first and foremost destroys this opinion you have. Nice try.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I suppose you have not seen the numerous posts I have made withing this forum about my own Dragonlance campaign which I am running ?
Those posts have a habit of being lost among the ones where you complain about delays, gripe about the focus of the materials and novels, etc. There were many occasions where I would have been more than happy to help you with your campaign issues but for the fact that the post was laden with negativity and hostility. It's no way to foster a community with others.
Cheers,
Cam
I am an individual and some things I like about Dragonlance(As stated in a previous debate that took place between Brimstone and myself on another thread where I actually heaped praises on the DLCS.), some I do not. This does not mean I hate Dragonlance.
I think you and others are upset because you are connected with S.P. and therefore take it personal when one does not like everything that is Dragonlance. That is life. One guy said the monster-in the Bestiary of Krynn- did not look scary(Which btw is a pretty good book although a bit costly.) enough yet that is not called out here. I say Mina is a moron(Along with others that also said they dislike her.) and my posts are centered on.
~~~
Man you guys do not get it and since I don't want this locked or for Brim and I to become mortal enemies I will chill.
Here goes, when I first saw the Dragonlance campaign setting book I ran over to my wife like a kid in the candy store and showed it to her. She bought the book for me awhile later.
It was so well done that I knew I had to run the Dragonlance campaign for my players. Then I heard that KoD was coming out and I heard how many pages it had in it and I was even happier. Then when I heard it was delayed I was like I am going to wait but Jamie released the preview so I started my campaign trusting S.P. to release it within a few weeks or so.
My players loved the adventure and now here I am not far from the date of my next session with absolutely nothing to go on after the preview. I don't want to DM Ravenloft or switch to Eberron(Although I am going to buy the Eberron CS.), I WANT TO RUN MY DRAGONLANCE AoM CAMPAIGN!
I even have a Yahoo account set-up for my players to get info on the campaign when I am not present. That is how much I am into it. What I am saying is I am feeling like those that have started their campaigns and that are at the end of their limb are being left out there with their campaign cold turkey.
That may not be true but that is how I feel.
Where is the hate for Dragonlance ? I see the opposite.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I am an individual and some things I like about Dragonlance(As stated in a previous debate that took place between Brimstone and myself on another thread where I actually heaped praises on the DLCS.), some I do not.
LOI, I want to point out that (negativity and what not aside) I did not criticise you for not liking Mina. You misunderstood my "should not like her." I meant, "the intention of the writer was to not like her"....which I thought was clear from the previous sentences, but taken out of context, it looks bad. But, even that was not my point of the post. My point was that you said that "most" Dragonlance fans don't like the 5th Age because they hate Mina and the elves which the 5th Age was centered on.
I did not debase you for that opinion...I debased the idea that this was the feeling of the majority of the fan base. You know...you may very well be right (it seems unlikely though)...but there is no way for you to know that...and so you shouldn't pass it off as fact.
That's what my post was about...but you chose to ignore that aspect of it, and instead decided to quote little things taken out of context to make it seem like I was personally insulting you. Which was not my intention.
Of course I was mad about the delays. Wouldn't you be if your favorite campaign had to go on hold and you were forced to play something as petty(IMO) as Ravenloft or FR ? Like I said before Chris really put it down when he wrote KoD and I wanted to run nothing else but KoD since then. Heck I even tried to help the moderator out when he was asking about Dragonlance(I never downtalked it once.).
Yeah sometimes my posts are going to be rough because I am passionate about the game. I hope you guys can feel me on this ?
~~~
Were I to meet you in real life, I'd give you a high five and buy you a beer, not seemingly direct my negativity toward you as an outlet for my passion.
And maybe you're not being as negative as you sometimes come across to be; it could very well be just the ineffectiveness of text as a communication medium, and I'll capitulate on that point.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I have always been forward with my opinions and at some times tactless but that is just me
Hmm...this seems oddly familiar to me...
Originally posted by Brimstone
Hmm...this seems oddly familiar to me...
LoL! Gamers have always been a finicky bunch.
~~~
My question for the boards members is this - beyond Mina, who do you consider the movers and shakers of the 5th age to be, and in what ways did they shape the 5th age?
How have these characters shaped your Dragonlance campaign?
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Just like some people like d20 Modern... and some don't. Period.
Chalk up another one for the good guys as B4Fake is smoked out of his hole and his mask is blown off of his face.
Originally posted by WizO_Drake
Perhaps it would be good for everyone to take 5 for a bit. Then when everyone has had a chance to cool off, we could get back to the content of the discussion.
My question for the boards members is this - beyond Mina, who do you consider the movers and shakers of the 5th age to be, and in what ways did they shape the 5th age?
How have these characters shaped your Dragonlance campaign?
Agreed. I will take the blame for this one-[begin rant]but man I really hate Mina.
[/end rant] Anyway, I think that Palin Majere is cool, and I like Dalamar the Dark too.
I am not sure how I feel about Galdar in the last WoS novel(Please excuse this.) he can be liked or disliked.
~~~
Originally posted by WizO_Drake
Perhaps it would be good for everyone to take 5 for a bit.
Chilled. :D
Originally posted by WizO_Drake
My question for the boards members is this - beyond Mina, who do you consider the movers and shakers of the 5th age to be, and in what ways did they shape the 5th age?
Well...there's the obvious Dragon Overlords and Dragonlords...they were definately the early shapers of the 5th Age and what happened.
Of course there's Goldmoon with her dissemination of Mysticism to the masses, and Palin who's responsible for disolving the millenia old Orders of High Sorcery and then disseminating sorcery to the masses.
Sara Dunstan would be another one...her idea of a knighthood based soley on justice and the protection of the people (all peoples) of Ansalon. Targonne would probably be another one, as well, since he was (although probably not solely) responsible for the change of the Knighthood into something just slightly above a group of thugs.
Sir Liam Erhling could be another good one. His new "vision" for the Measure of the Knighthood has the potential to reform the Knights of Solamnia into an order that does good for the people again...although as obvious from the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon, it hasn't happened yet. (perhaps in the new Knighthood trilogy next year :D)
And of course...General Hotak has been quite the figure in the current time of the Age of Mortals. His influence has completely reshaped the Blood Sea minotaurs.
There are others who either effected change on a smaller level or had the potential to inflict greater change but didn't...but I feel this is a good list to start with.
Originally posted by marius4
I think what smarts the most is having the "ideal" Krynn taken away, in that the official present of DL has moved beyond the 4th Age and entered murky waters; afterall, how romantic is it to escape into a fantasy world that sucks just like real life? (And let's face it, Summer Flame didn't exactly ease us into all of this!)
Very true...Summer Flame was very jarring as a first read.
But as for the "sucking" part...I think this may have been part of my attraction to the 5th Age. Like I stated in an earlier post (I think it was on this thread) I was lucky in that Chronicles was exactly what I needed at the time in my life to make me fall in love with it. And the new 5th Age stuff came at I time in my life where I could relate to it better than if it had been 5 years earlier (metaphorically speaking, of course...I wasn't actually fighting a 450 ft red dragon with a toothpick) :D
What got me was that even though Ansalon now sucked as much as the real world (although I don't think Ansalon has ever exactly been Camelot in that aspect) there were still heroes willing to fight for what was right...even thought they kept getting beat down again and again. And there was still romance and hope and love and magic.
That is what made the early 5th Age so powerful for me.
I must say, for the most part, I've enjoyed 5th age, so much has happened in such a short time. Gods have left, alien dragons appear, two different forums of magic take place of the old. The last of the Heroes of the Lance die off. Leadership of the Dwarves of Thorbardin change, Draconians begin to reproduce and star their own city. Some Kender mutate into a sad, fearful little shadow of their former selves. Both Elven Kingdoms are brought to their nears, a GOD DIES, another becomes mortal. And A host of other things. 5th age has had more action in what? 40 years?
My opinion, I hate Mina, but in the way I think they intended. I don't like Silvanoshei, but that's just me. I'm curious as to the fate of the elves and that of the Towers of High Sorcery. And how Sorcerers and Wizards will REALLY get along ;)
Like I said, just wanted to get my two sense in ;)
I love that people have so much passion for DL, it's nice to be a part of this community. :D
Heck, Dhamon has been central to far more books than Mina.
I am really PO'd to hear that Summer Flame was originally intended to be a trilogy cut down to one book.
I am sure my thoughts of how I feel about the 5th Age are probably already clear to most (as in I can't stand it). As for Mina I hate her, but not as she was intended to be hated. I just didn't buy into any of it. The whole WoS trilogy (at least for me) had no real compelling new characters aside from "The Lioness".
I don't/didn't even like the dragon overloads.
I literally had to force myself to finish those books. The whole "One True God" thing was very tiresome as well, as if most of us didn't know who that was literally from the beginning.
Going back to products and their released dates. Just because SP might push a product release date back does not bother me. I am not dependent upon SP to maintain my campaign for me. They are a resource for me and are utilized as such.
Heck, how long have we been keeping DL alive before it was put into 3e officially? While I appreciate the hard work that everyone puts into it. I pick an choose what I use.
Bottom line is we all like the campaign and setting and although we may not agree on certain aspects of the story or direction there is bond because of how we feel about DL.
Originally posted by Maladaar
I literally had to force myself to finish those books. The whole "One True God" thing was very tiresome as well, as if most of us didn't know who that was literally from the beginning.
Actaully...because I kept up with the 5th Age as it was going on...I was actually thinking it was Khellendros for most of the first two books (having missed the reference to him in book one being around).
So...I was disappointed that it was Takhisis...but happy she finally keeled over for good.
however, the end of wos has shown me how to compromise, since its a wonderful, politically charged setting with a lot more to do now =)
Originally posted by Dragontooth
Refused to see the bad side of Takhisis, but viewed it as disiplen(sp) from her goddess. I can't wait for the Dark Disciple.
I personally viewed it as a basic religious extremist trait (like the Branch Davidians...or more topical, Militant Islamic Extremists). Single purposed, close minded....brainwashed would be a good term. She has quite the superiority complex, too with her beliefs and believe all should believe as she does...or be crushed beneath her boot.
But then again...I have a real problem with organized religion in general because it has a tendency to breed this sort of behavior. Everything that I see bad in religion is epitomized in Mina...which, I don't know if that was Tracy and Margaret's intention...but it wouldn't surprise me. Taking all the traits that aren't so good with religion in general...then amplify them. Then, just to throw us off our guard, add some of the good religious traits too...like devotion and...uh...hmm...did Mina even have any other good traits? I guess love for her "mother." But that's all I can think of.
Originally posted by Dragontooth
I wonder if I'm the only person that feels this way. I actually liked Mina. I like how she was head strong. Re-buffed anybody's attempts to show, or tell the bad side of Takhisis. Refused to see the bad side of Takhisis, but viewed it as disiplen(sp) from her goddess. I can't wait for the Dark Disciple.
I liked Mina as well. I think she's a great character. I know a lot of people don't like her single-minded approach to things. Yet this is testament to the human spirit.
How many times have we seen someone, or some group, that was completely dedicated to a cause, so much so that it blinded them to anything else? You see this sort of thing with religion or politics often enough, sometimes in a bad way and sometimes in a good way.
I think, though, that the view of Mina presented in WoS is but one view, and we'll learn more about her in the upcoming Dark Disciple trilogy.
Originally posted by talinthas
i loved DL5A. it was a rebirth of the setting, with newer taladas elements fused with older classic stuff, with cool new extras and a renewed focus on dragons.
You know, I've often thought that Taladas was a better fit for the pre-WoS materials than Ansalon. Certainly, I can see the Taladas influence on the 5th age.
in contrast, when WoS came and started dismantling the setting piece by piece, i was so flaming mad that i couldnt see straight.
Careful there, Tal. One person's dismantling is another's rebuilding. ;)
To me, the outcome of the War of Souls is the best possible outcome for Dragonlance at this time. Yes, some elements of the 5th Age as we knew it are changing. At the same time, some of the classic elements we've known from prior ages are making a comeback (i.e. gods and focused magic). In the process, neither Takhisis nor Paladine will be there to hog the spotlight.
What this does is give us a whole new dynamic. The struggle of good and evil is different than it has ever been. The relationship of ambient and focused spellcasters will certainly be quite interesting. Seeing gods seeking followers amongst people who have lived nearly two generations without gods will be neat. Plus, what of the longer-lived races who remember a life without gods not only once, but twice?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Careful there, Tal. One person's dismantling is another's rebuilding. ;)
That is true in a sense...but technically Tal is right. WoS was dismantling the lots of stuff from the 5th Age piece by piece...systematically even (Academy, Shield, Citadel, Beryl, Skie, Nightlund's eternal twilight, Malys).
That being said...where your comment comes in...the rebuilding can't happen until the dismantling has taken place. (out of chaos, order comes...we see it all the time in nature
)I too was upset by the dismantling...but like Tal I feel post-WoS rebuilding of the setting is a beautiful combonation of the two previous settings. :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
That is true in a sense...but technically Tal is right. WoS was dismantling the lots of stuff from the 5th Age piece by piece...systematically even (Academy, Shield, Citadel, Beryl, Skie, Nightlund's eternal twilight, Malys).
Right, and I agree with that.
That being said...where your comment comes in...the rebuilding can't happen until the dismantling has taken place. (out of chaos, order comes...we see it all the time in nature
I thought order came out of Chaos (big C). lol
I think in a sense we're both on the same track. Like you said, a lot of 5th age elements have been dismantled. At the same time, a lot of 4th age elements have been dismantled as well. So in this rebuilding, elements from each will have to interact, which again provides a nifty dynamic.
I too was upset by the dismantling...but like Tal I feel post-WoS rebuilding of the setting is a beautiful combonation of the two previous settings. :D
Same here.
---------
1. The "science fiction" feel (alien dragons, gods stealing the world etc).
2. Mina as a concept (weird girl coming out of the blue and trying to "conquer" the world).
3. The current state of Silvanoshei (what an embarassment
).4. The whole "religion" staff. Goldmoon was "okay" to some extent. The current state is untolerable. I cannot stand reading about "One gods", "True faith", "Miracles in the name of..", "Come with the One or perish", "Religion..blah blah...."
----------
I do not know what the future holds for Krynn. My hopes lay on Dalamar, Dhamon and the Minotaurs. I hope they become points of focus.
I agree wholeheartedly, especially with 1 through 3.
The thing that I just couldn't get past with Mina was the fact that practically everyone just automatically followed right from the beginning.
I couldn't get into the "bloated" dragons that turned out to be alien dragons. I personally didn't see the need to add these new types of dragons, I don't know maybe I am a purist as I have always prefered to have only the 5 chromatic and 5 metallic dragons.
Brimstone,
Obviously we are opposite sides of the fence on the death of Takhisis. I absolutely hated the fact that she died and that Paladine become mortal. (I see it as "hopefully" that we agree to disagree.)
Someone posted about Paladine and Takhisis "hogged" the limelight. There were 21 gods that could have been written about while the two of them were still deities.
I had often wondered why you never saw trilogies that centered around Morgion and Mishakal. In my campaign, I often had those two battle through their worshippers.
Originally posted by Maladaar
I couldn't get into the "bloated" dragons that turned out to be alien dragons. I personally didn't see the need to add these new types of dragons, I don't know maybe I am a purist as I have always prefered to have only the 5 chromatic and 5 metallic dragons.
The alien dragons were chromatic dragons. They weren't native to Krynn, but they still came from the same 5 chromatic types. The "bloated" reference refers to their immense size and appearance, less sleek and agile-looking than some of the smaller dragons. So they weren't a new type at all.
Cheers,
Cam
Also, I am always surprised at those who dislike what they perceive as a strong religious tone in the War of Souls.
Did you not notice the heavy Mormon undertones of the Chronicles?
The Anti-Catholic depiction of Istar?
Originally posted by Maladaar
Obviously we are opposite sides of the fence on the death of Takhisis. I absolutely hated the fact that she died and that Paladine become mortal. (I see it as "hopefully" that we agree to disagree.)
On the one hand, I wish they hadn't died either. I always thought they were representative of the setting more than any of the other gods.
On the other hand, they've had their time in the spotlight (which they've tended to dominate), and it is time for other stories to be told. Logically, I think it's the best move they could do for the setting right now.
You're right, there should have been a spotlight on the other gods as well, but it just wasn't done. Now the authors have no choice.
I had often wondered why you never saw trilogies that centered around Morgion and Mishakal. In my campaign, I often had those two battle through their worshippers.
Hopefully we will now. Morgion was a big influence in a campaign I once played in too.
Are they the Noble Draconians that are in the BoK ?
~~~
Originally posted by Eaglos
What I generaly did not like
---------
1. The "science fiction" feel (alien dragons, gods stealing the world etc).
2. Mina as a concept (weird girl coming out of the blue and trying to "conquer" the world).
3. The current state of Silvanoshei (what an embarassment
4. The whole "religion" staff. Goldmoon was "okay" to some extent. The current state is untolerable. I cannot stand reading about "One gods", "True faith", "Miracles in the name of..", "Come with the One or perish", "Religion..blah blah...."
----------
I do not know what the future holds for Krynn. My hopes lay on Dalamar, Dhamon and the Minotaurs. I hope they become points of focus.
You took the words right off of my keyboard! I agree wholeheartedly! Especially with numbers 1-3!
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I just finished the WoS yesterday. I would like to know exactly who the Draconians were that helped Sanction in the end ?
Are they the Noble Draconians that are in the BoK ?
No, they're the draconians from Teyr (Kang's draconians).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
On the one hand, I wish they hadn't died either. I always thought they were representative of the setting more than any of the other gods.
On the other hand, they've had their time in the spotlight (which they've tended to dominate), and it is time for other stories to be told. Logically, I think it's the best move they could do for the setting right now.
Both gods could have been remove from the spotlight in the Age of Mortals without having to kill one and de-god (I'm sure this is not a word) the other.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, they're the draconians from Teyr (Kang's draconians).
Cheers,
Cam
Ok thanks Cam. I remember seeing his stats in my DLCS. I believe his alignment was Lawful Neutral so I guess that shows why he helped oust the thugged out dark knights.
~~~
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Both gods could have been remove from the spotlight in the Age of Mortals without having to kill one and de-god (I'm sure this is not a word) the other.
Maybe, but there's the temptation factor. In a sense, Paladine and Takhisis represent the "generic" gods of good and evil, being the epitome of those concepts. So if one of the other gods just isn't working for the story, one would default to Paladine and Takhisis.
Now, there's no choice about it. The temptation is gone, and the authors will have to work even harder with the remaining gods, not only putting them in the spotlight, but developing some great stories in the process.
Plus, this adds a whole new dynamic to Dragonlance. Many of the setting's key moments hinge around the battle between Paladine and Takhisis. But now, they're not the movers and shakers. The other evil gods can do whatever they want without fearing the presence of Takhisis, or worrying about interfering with her plans.
So yeah, they could have left Takhisis and Paladine in. I think, though, that the story would have suffered for it, as it would have been a "return to the 4th age". This is something new and exciting, and it will be interesting to see where the setting goes from here.
I am interested in the one that has the book. Gilean is his name I believe ? Shoot me for not knowing for sure. I just started DM'ing DL with the introduction of edition v.3.5.
~~~
Originally posted by Maladaar
Obviously we are opposite sides of the fence on the death of Takhisis. I absolutely hated the fact that she died and that Paladine become mortal. (I see it as "hopefully" that we agree to disagree.)
Yeah...I think so.
I was so incensed when I found out the "One God" was Takhisis...it turned the War of Souls in particular (the 5th Age in general) into another "Takhisis tries to take over the world" story. When I heard she was not going to survive the War of Souls...my jaw just dropped! I couldn't believe it. By far...the biggest surprise in a DL book...well...since the gods left in DoSF. It got me really excited. I've always viewed DL as a place that was not safe for anyone...you can't take anyone's survival for granted. This just played right into my own little personal vision of DL.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yeah...I think so.
I was so incensed when I found out the "One God" was Takhisis...it turned the War of Souls in particular (the 5th Age in general) into another "Takhisis tries to take over the world" story. When I heard she was not going to survive the War of Souls...my jaw just dropped! I couldn't believe it. By far...the biggest surprise in a DL book...well...since the gods left in DoSF. It got me really excited. I've always viewed DL as a place that was not safe for anyone...you can't take anyone's survival for granted. This just played right into my own little personal vision of DL.
Agreed!! Man we finally agree on something! LoL! When I found out that chic(Takhisis) was the one god I was like OH LORD NOT AGAIN! It is very believable that the gods just finally got tired of her
and decided to pull the plug on this "I can't be anything but evil," test tube baby !~~~
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
The Anti-Catholic depiction of Istar?
I'm not sure that Istar was supposed to be a direct metaphor for Catholocism. I think it was supposed to be more of a moral statement on when an organized religion gets too righteous and too powerful. Which yes...the Catholic church was like this once during the middle ages and Renaissance...but I don't think it was supposed to be anti-Catholic. I may be wrong...it's just a guess. That sort of agenda seems awfully hate oriented...which I just can't see Tracy doing.
Ok thanks Cam. I remember seeing his stats in my DLCS. I believe his alignment was Lawful Neutral so I guess that shows why he helped oust the thugged out dark knights.
The are many reasons he worked against the Dark Knights
Spoilers for Doom Brigade and Draconian Measures
*
*
*
*
Besides the fact that humans have never treated Kang or his command with any respect since the War of the Lance, when the summer of Chaos rolled around and he heard about these honorable knights he and his regiment left their peaceful (well relitively) home to join them... and were assigned to dig latrines. For combat engineers this is an insult. They deserted in the middle of the night and went on a series of misadventures where the Dark Queen used them and sent them on a suicide mission against a hoard of Chaos' Fire dragons. After they managed to survive they found those oh so vital female draconian eggs.
Years later after thefemales hatched a well trained and disciplined army of goblins and hobgoblins sought to destroy Kang's regiment as they tried to make their way to Teyr. These goblins were uncharacteristically well trained and nearly succeeded in ending Kang's dream of saving his race. Who trained these goblins? The Dark Knights, for the express purpose of wiping out Kang and his to make sure the draconians were never allowed to breed.
Kang has grievences with the Dark Knights and Takhisis.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I am interested in the one that has the book. Gilean is his name I believe ? Shoot me for not knowing for sure. I just started DM'ing DL with the introduction of edition v.3.5.
That's the one.
Originally posted by Brimstone
That's the one.
Ha ha!
[Entering Star Wars mode]My Dragonlance knowledge base is almost complete. If you strike me down now I shall become more powerful than ever![/End SW mode]
~~~
Originally posted by Brimstone
I'm not sure that Istar was supposed to be a direct metaphor for Catholocism. I think it was supposed to be more of a moral statement on when an organized religion gets too righteous and too powerful.
Right. One could as easily complain that the Kingpriest is a thinly veiled Ayatollah or Patriarch or Holy Roman Emperor. Chris Pierson has done an astounding job on bringing that era, already rich from Weis & Hickman's treatment of it in Legends, to a glorious light.
Our history has many kingpriests, and they weren't all popes. I think it's a valid fantasy element, used well in this instance (and rarely in other works of fantasy, in fact).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
[Entering Star Wars mode]My Dragonlance knowledge base is almost complete. If you strike me down now I shall become more powerful than ever![/End SW mode]
You realize you just quoted Vader and Kenobi in the same sentence, right?
Blasphemy!
:D
Originally posted by Brimstone
You realize you just quoted Vader and Kenobi in the same sentence, right?
Blasphemy!
:D
Err..uh. Your not my father!
*Figured I might as well include Luke too*
~~~
I'm not sure that Istar was supposed to be a direct metaphor for Catholocism. I think it was supposed to be more of a moral statement on when an organized religion gets too righteous and too powerful. Which yes...the Catholic church was like this once during the middle ages and Renaissance...but I don't think it was supposed to be anti-Catholic. I may be wrong...it's just a guess. That sort of agenda seems awfully hate oriented...which I just can't see Tracy doing.
I don't think he meant that it was intended to be representative...just that it was inevitable for it to be so. Because we are in real life, and history plays its roles in our writing, it is simply unavoidable for similiarities to exist. After all, Fantasy is nothing short of being based on real life in some way or another; were it not so, it wouldn't exist, just as light could not exist without dark to be its offset.
As for whether there were influential affects in the back of said writers' minds when things were written, there's no way to deny it, really. A rudimentary glance at how things happened and the whole "religious oligarchy" scenario just shows too many similarities.
Think of it much like if you were to write a fantasy novel...you'd find yourself having to actively dissuade your work from taking on precepts and ideals from fantasy books that you have read. It's innocent, unavoidable, but nonetheless there. No one can be blamed for it.
Originally posted by Ashaman Nash
I don't think he meant that it was intended to be representative...just that it was inevitable for it to be so.
Maybe so...it just seemed like to me that what he was saying. I mean...I didn't change the quote at all...he did just say "The anti-Catholic depiction of Istar." Maybe he didn't meant it that way...but it's a dangerous way to put it, I think.
Originally posted by Ashaman Nash
As for whether there were influential affects in the back of said writers' minds when things were written, there's no way to deny it, really.
Typically...I love a good theological debate...but this isn't really the place for it (and it's really to sensitive a subject for most people to have any other way than face to face...and for me, preferably over a good hefe weison
)So, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Does the 5th Age of Krynn leave you with an empty feeling ?
YES.
I have stated many times, both here and on other boards. I stopped reading and buying DL books & game accessories after Dragons of Summer's Flame (save for Gil's book). Before that I bought every single DL book and game accessory. Personally I thought DoSF was an attempt to kill the world. But didn't work so they had to come up with something and now we're left with 5th age.
These are just my opinions and are not meant to flame or bait anyone. I still love DL, just everything before DoSF.
If you've read the 5th age novels and don't like them, fine. However if you didn't like Summer Flame and decided to pout about it and boycott everything set after it then you just don't know what you're talking about.
The whole WoS trilogy (at least for me) had no real compelling new characters aside from "The Lioness".
Actually Kerianseray- afterwards known as the Lioness- appeared in The Puppet King(1999). Presumably she had been cut from Summer Flame.
Originally posted by cnposner
Actually Kerianseray- afterwards known as the Lioness- appeared in The Puppet King(1999). Presumably she had been cut from Summer Flame.
Interesting...I hadn't heard that. It's been a while since I read Second Generation but did she make an appearance in that short story about Gil, too?
If not...I know that she was around for quite a while before TPK...but only in SAGA gaming material, I think.
Originally posted by Rian Lightblade
Personally I thought DoSF was an attempt to kill the world. But didn't work so they had to come up with something and now we're left with 5th age.
My first impression of DoSF wasn't necessarily that they were trying to "kill" Dragonlance, but I did think it was supposed to "end" Dragonlance.
That said, however, Margaret (and maybe Tracy too...but I can't think of an example off hand) said on several occasions that that was never the intention of DoSF. I guess one will believe what one will, but that's the story from the authors at least.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Interesting...I hadn't heard that. It's been a while since I read Second Generation but did she make an appearance in that short story about Gil, too?
If not...I know that she was around for quite a while before TPK...but only in SAGA gaming material, I think.
Actually, she makes a very brief appearance in The Second Generation (p.364), as the girl who brings Gilthas his breakfast on the morning of his coronation: although she is neither named nor speaks, Dragons of a Fallen Sun makes clear that this was she.
I had not heard that she came into the SAGA material; which products, exactly?
Originally posted by Nived
But have you given the 5th age a chance? It seems you've already decided not to read the 5th age novels therefore your statement that the 5th age is empty is based on ignorance.
If you've read the 5th age novels and don't like them, fine. However if you didn't like Summer Flame and decided to pout about it and boycott everything set after it then you just don't know what you're talking about.
How do you know I didn't. I didn't know that I had to give a complete history of my xp with 5th age to answer a simple question.
For a matter of fact I have kept up with the changes and storylines though other gamers still devoted to the Setting. I've read the though the new sections of D20 books that detail the history of the setting post WoL and found nothing that I care for in the least. So I'll change my statement just to to keep it clear. I have not bought any DL Books and game assessories since DoSF. This is not to say I havn't examined them or recieved any as gifts.
How do you know I didn't.
Oh I don't know maybe it was this statement.
I stopped reading and buying DL books & game accessories after Dragons of Summer's Flame
Also 'keeping up with the storyline through gaming materials' is hardly a substitute. Many of the novels, for instance Dark Thane, have no mention in any of the gaming material but are none the less fantastic. Untill you actually read the various novels set in the 5th age I don't really care about your opinion of the 5th age because you do not know what your are talking about.
Originally posted by cnposner
I had not heard that she came into the SAGA material; which products, exactly?
Well...actually, I thought she was in it from the beginning. Maybe not in the Fate deck...but at least mentioned in the DL5A Boxed Set.
But now that you have said this...I'm beginning to question my thought. I'll have to check this weekend.
Originally posted by Nived
Also 'keeping up with the storyline through gaming materials' is hardly a substitute. Many of the novels, for instance Dark Thane, have no mention in any of the gaming material but are none the less fantastic. Untill you actually read the various novels set in the 5th age I don't really care about your opinion of the 5th age because you do not know what your are talking about.
A person can get a general feeling for the era, though - enough to know whether they want to buy any more books set in that era or not. Maybe they're missing out, maybe not. It's all relative.
I've often said that Dragonlance is a "setting of settings". It's much like Star Wars in this manner, as certain elements remain the same from era to era, and yet other elements change. The Rise of the Empire, Rebellion era, and New Republic eras (amongst others) are all different, each with their own feel.
The same can be said of Dragonlance. There's multiple eras, each one with its own feel, and each one with its own appeals. If I've learned anything from Dragonlance fandom since the start of the Nexus, it's that Dragonlance fans are of many varieties, and they're passionate about it.
This means that there are those who only like Chronicles and Legends, those who like anything prior to the Age of Mortals, others who only like the Age of Mortals, those who like the entirety of DL, those who prefer Taladas, and still yet others with various other viewpoints.
Each of these views are valid. I would like to think that through our rich diversity that we can learn from one another, and discover what makes Dragonlance special for us all.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
If I've learned anything from Dragonlance fandom since the start of the Nexus, it's that Dragonlance fans are of many varieties, and they're passionate about it.
:heehee
So true we are that indeed!
I wasn't saying Tracy Hickman is a bigot, or anti-Catholic, merely that the depiction of Istar in the backstory for Chronicles is very similar to the belief in "Great Apostasy" that is held amongst some members of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints.
It basically states that the teachings of Christ were peverted (accidently or otherwise) by the Church and that no true Christian Church existed again until Joseph Smith's revelation in 1820.
Now I'm not saying that Tracy Hickman holds this belief, or is anti-Catholic or anything like that.
I was merely pointing out the striking parallel between this belief, and the corrupt Church of Istar -> true religion rediscovered through disks.
I apologise for inadvertantly starting a theological discussion, as that wasn't my intention. I merely wanted to point out that strong religious undertones were present in Dragonlance from the beginning.
He's a religious guy, and writes his faith in his novels. The issue is interpretation on the part of the reader. For me, i didn't see any of this till much later, and used the DL morals to firm up my own hindu beliefs =)
The comparisons to LDS are valid, especially in chronicals 1.
Interestingly enough, there are some subtle Catholic undertones in the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon....
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
Agreed.
Interestingly enough, there are some subtle Catholic undertones in the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon....
That's courtesy of Matthew L. Martin, who is a Catholic.
But have you given the 5th age a chance? It seems you've already decided not to read the 5th age novels therefore your statement that the 5th age is empty is based on ignorance.
Hold baby, hold! Those words are kind of strong. His opinion is not based on ignorance they are based on preference. He does not prefer the 5th Age.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Hold baby, hold! Those words are kind of strong. His opinion is not based on ignorance they are based on preference. He does not prefer the 5th Age.
Actually...to give an opinion on something that you know nothing about does make it an "ignorant" comment...by the very definition of "ignorance."
But...I think there was a crossed wire because Rian did state that he checked it out, and decided he didn't like it. Making it an opinion of preference...not one of intolerance.
Just my 2cp.
~~~
I feel that Ansalon is almost dead. The Knights of Neraka and Solmania are in an uneasy truce, the wizards are trying to re-establish themselves. It is definately a time where no action appears to be happening.
Agreed. The 5th Age does have a dead feeling to it. I think that one of the worst decisions was to get rid of the Towers of High Sorcery.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Agreed. The 5th Age does have a dead feeling to it. I think that one of the worst decisions was to get rid of the Towers of High Sorcery.
What are you talking about? The 5th Age didn't get rid of the Towers of High Sorcery. Well...it did get rid of one...but it was pretty much closed off to most people for the last 383 years anyway.
The Wayreth tower was never closed (no matter how much the DLCS tries to beat it into you that it was). It may have been retconned that the Wayreth tower was closed down. But throughout the last 8 years of 5th Age and SAGA material, the Tower was always open to sorcerers...and Tests were still given by the Master of the Tower. Sorcerers and former wizards still called the tower home, studying was still being done there.
Sorry...it just upsets me that the DLCS essentially retconned my favorite SAGA material (The Last Tower: The Legacy of Raistlin) into non-existance.
I'm assuming more will be made clear in the Towers of High Sorcery book. But from the words I got from Jamie a few weeks ago...it definately sounds like it's been retconned to be closed by Palin at the Last Conclave.
To the original post:
Yes, the setting does seem dead.
From cliched motivations and character arcs (both Mina and Silvanoshei) to deus ex machina events (Chaos in DoSF) to events that are so oposite of deus ex machina (both the retreat of the gods during DoSF nd the displacement of the quintessential campaign deities in WoS) that they become by default deus ex machina in absentia (What meaningful role could PCs have played in the events of either DoSF or the WoS trilogy?). How screwed up does the world have to become in 50 years? Is it Ironic or going back to the well one too many times to have the gods leave 3 times in 500 years? How about 3 different versions of geography. One of these situations offered an interesting hook and great fantasy fodder. I am truely bored with the repetition at this point. Some fans wanted some changes. How different does the campaign have to be before you are OK with it? Do you need that kind of global change to enjoy the setting? Do you require changes so significant that it will nearly spoil the respect and enjoyment of a significant portion of the fan base (note I am not saying most, though I am sure that someone here will now question whether those frustrated by these changes amount to a significant portion. I have spoken to enough fans and former fans to know better as I am sure most do here.) Yes, some like these changes. To them, no doubt, the changes are acceptable. Do they know the alternative? Maybe not. They seem either unable or unwilling to concede to anything better than what exists. Proponents of the new ages often use an image of the good old days of DL as being completely static and so in need of change that the setting was dying. We did not have a purely binary choice between stagnating rehashes of the Heroes of the Lance and a complete reflavoring of the setting along the existing lines. Change is/was needed to enliven the campaign. I can agree with that. I would have been happy with a whole range of possible changes. I am confident that the talent of the various authors is/was such that they could have preserved the feeling and the historical continuity with the setting the way it was while still providing an acceptable level of change and variety for those that prefer the new age. I strongly believe that changes could have been made that would have satisfied and elated much larger portions of the old school, equal or larger portions of the new school, and brought in even more fans from both the RPG and literary sides. Were Pal and Tak used overmuch? Possibly. Could the other deities have been included more? Easily, and in our groups (8 strong) DL campaigns (3 active with 1 running 10 years, 1 8 years, and the third 6 years, from 2 different DMs), this kind of change continued even after the stagnation after the Legends trilogy. Our PCs felt like they were part of a vibrant world and we very much enjoyed contact or even hearing of the Heroes and other campaign notables. We used the history of the world and had large tasks cleaning up after the WotL. I have heard from some sources online, that DoSF was somewhat of a correction for W&H from the course that some of the novels had taken Krynn in. I hear on this very forum that this project was originally intended to be a trilogy. This makes sense. Perhaps with more novelization, W&H could have woven more of the feel of Krynn into the storie and rounded out some of the abruptness and provided some additional closure and direction at the end. I still do not think that I would have liked another Global War so soon after the WotL, but I can concede that this would have helped, and I am not sure what W&Hs original intent was for Krynn after DoSF. I have further heard online that W&H were cut out of Krynn again immediately following DoSF, and that the failing TSR allowed other authors to take Krynn once again in an even more drastic departure from what they had intended with the DoSF correction. Give this a couple of years and we end up with the second correction by W&H (WoS). This project needed to do 2 things. First, it needed to return some semblance of guidance of the world to the original authors. Second, it had to find a middle ground to appease both the old schoolers and the 5th agers and unify the fanbase to maximize the market for future products. While doing both of these things, it had to provide sufficient rationals/explanations for all of the drastically divergent directions that Krynn had taken in the last decade. I was hoping for a Bobby Ewing Dream sequence where all of the 5th age books would be summarily dismissed. This didn't happen. A noble effort was made, but the patchwork is obvious and so are the strains in the community. Of course the merge has been more acceptable to 5th agers, as they were ready to accept alien dragons, new unexplained magic, and little campaign continuity. They do not have as much invested generally as those who had grown accustomed to the original flavor. To them the changes are not as drastic, as they were already buying a specific spin on the drastic changes in DoSF. I buy neither, nor does anyone in my group. We play as if DoSF and the New age have never occurred. It is a shame that we cannot continue to follow Canon, but we are not stuck with the perfect static world either. We play in the Dragonlance we like. The only thing to do, is peruse gaming products on shelves for the portion that we can use, be discouraged by that which we do not want to use, and for the most part no longer support the product line. I thought DLCS was good, aside from the 5th age and age of mortals stuff. AoM was only useful for the Mariner Class, which I memorized and wrote down away from the hobby store. The Beastiary was stylized nicely, but i am not going tospend that kind of money to get such a high percentage of creatures that will never exist in our campaigns. And yes I understand the Marketing of the product. I very much look forward to any products that are completely without reference to post DoSF as that material is a different world. IMHO these changes didn't have to take place on Krynn at all for the 5th agers to enjoy them. They are altogether disjoint from the history of the campaign world expressed up to the DoSF. Change the names of the gods and the placenames and you have a completely different animal.
Later Question about movers of the 5th age (I'll add AoM too):
I have not read any of the 5th age or Age of Mortals novels. I have read excerpts in book stores, participated in many online discussions about them, discussed the main plot points and the ramifications of these on game play within our group. It seems to me that every character that has been set up to drive the campaign world in the new age is sterile, either by the specific limitations of their part in the world, horrid one-dimensionality/single-purpose or by the expectation and boredom involved with the drama escalation that has been prevalent since the Legends series. Mina was/is such a simple character, and is merely a Tool of Takhisis. I only need to know generally what hapened in WoS to know this. Goldmoon, Riverwind, and Tasselhoff were crutches with the same minimal evidence. The Dragon Overlords were Bizzarre. Palin's story was still part of the completion of Raistlin's story arc. Sara Dunstan helps prop up the Neutrals. That is one thing I have never quite liked about DL. The fact that Neutrality, especially the neatral pantheon seems aggressive neutral towards maintaining the balance instead of apathetic towards good and evil... I wonder what will happen with Valthonis? In effect, he is type-cast and only a few options are open to him as the story progresses. Will Mina come back? Will Takhisis come back? Do I wonder? No. I dont care. I don't need any of the old gaurd (Palin or Dalamar) playing a major role, and I don't think the story will go that way. The minotaur angle in Silvanesti is interesting, but we have already worked part of this in, without destroying the Elven Nation. I like the idea of reproducing draconians, but likewise, we were able to add this without turning the world on end. I never really liked the absurd humor that the Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes sometimes added, but seeing Goodlund raised, makes me miss them.
I have to go to bed now...
I was hoping for a Bobby Ewing Dream sequence where all of the 5th age books would be summarily dismissed. This didn't happen.
Nor should it. One thing that I know about writing in a shared setting is that you must be wholly inclusive. In other words, whether you liked the 5th Age materials or not, it happened, and “erasing” that would be a slap in the face to a good portion of the fan base, as well as lend little credibility towards your own writing ability.
A noble effort was made, but the patchwork is obvious and so are the strains in the community.
The strains on the community have been there since day one. I’ll agree that the aftermath of Dragons of Summer Flame worsened the strain, dividing the fan base into “4th age fans” and “5th age fans”. However, I think we’re at a point where there’s some good healing going on, and we can get back to being Dragonlance fans.
Of course the merge has been more acceptable to 5th agers, as they were ready to accept alien dragons, new unexplained magic, and little campaign continuity. They do not have as much invested generally as those who had grown accustomed to the original flavor. To them the changes are not as drastic, as they were already buying a specific spin on the drastic changes in DoSF.
I’ve seen all sorts of views on this. I’ve seen classic DL fans who still don’t like what’s going on with the setting, even after the WoS. I’ve seen 5th age fans who don’t like the changes going on right now, and aren’t accepting them any more than the classic DL fans who didn’t accept the 5th age to begin with. I’ve also seen DL fans who don’t care either way – it’s DL, so it’s good.
Reactions are all over the board here. I think for each one of us, our reactions are based on our own experiences, tastes, and preferences. Also consider that we, as human beings, are not ones who like change.
We play in the Dragonlance we like.
Which is exactly what you should do. Dragonlance is not only a “setting of settings”, it’s also something that one can mold to fit one’s own tastes. If you’re not happy with the changes post-Summer Flame, then by all means, leave them out and follow your own continuity.
The key is to have fun with your games.
Will Mina come back?
Yes, in Ashes and Amber by Margaret Weis, book I of the Dark Disciple trilogy. Mina will be further developed in this story.
Will Takhisis come back?
Nope! She’s outta here. ;)
Soulsong has the right idea here in that his group is doing their own thing. Dragonlance has a lot to offer anyone. We all have diverging tastes, and we may not all like the entirety of Dragonlance. Even so, as far as our own game tables go, we should go with the portions of DL that we like, and shape our own stories.
They do not have as much invested generally as those who had grown accustomed to the original flavor.
It's exactly sentiments like this that are causing rifts between the fan base. What a stupid thing to even suggest as the truth. I like the new stuff...therefore I must not have as much invested in Dragonlance. Come on.
Originally posted by wolffenjugend
I just hope they don't make another war or another "the gods have left us" scenario. It's getting ridiculous...
Agreed, they have beat that horse to death.
My wife(As a first time reader of Dragonlance.) was reading some of the books and was like :
"D@mn there are sure alot of wars in Dragonlance. Every other trilogy is about a war".
All I could do was shrug.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
My wife(As a first time reader of Dragonlance.) was reading some of the books and was like :
"D@mn there are sure alot of wars in Dragonlance. Every other trilogy is about a war".
Well...really...when you think about it..there haven't been that many big wars.
Over a 9500 year history (not including pre-historic Age of Starbirth) there has been the 1st Dragon War, 2nd Dragon War, Kinslayer War, 3rd Dragon War, Dwarfgate War, War of the Lance, Blue Lady's War, Chaos War, Dragon Purge (not really a war), and the War of Souls. Of course now there's the Minotaur Wars...
Damn...okay, so there are a lot. Now the War of the Lance and the Blue Lady's War is really the same war...and I suppose the Dragon Purge doesn't really count. And I know there are many many more little wars...but those are the main ones...so 8 in about a 10,000 year span...that's not too bad. Of course 4 of those happened in the last 500 years...
Originally posted by Brimstone
[b]Well...really...when you think about it..there haven't been that many big wars.
Over a 9500 year history (not including pre-historic Age of Starbirth) there has been the 1st Dragon War, 2nd Dragon War, Kinslayer War, 3rd Dragon War, Dwarfgate War, War of the Lance, Blue Lady's War, Chaos War, Dragon Purge (not really a war), and the War of Souls. Of course now there's the Minotaur Wars...
Damn...okay, so there are a lot.
:heehee
~~~
Originally posted by Brimstone
Of course 4 of those happened in the last 500 years...
Right, but consider this in comparison with the history of the United States in regards to wars. In 200 years, we've had roughly 11 or so wars (quick estimate).
It's true, the history of Dragonlance is centered around the history of its wars. Many nations can say that. Certainly, the events of World War I and World War II have drastically altered the world we live in. So too have the Third Dragon War, War of the Lance, Chaos War, and War of Souls (amongst others).
At the same time, only 3 such wars were chronicled in the present in the 20 year real-world history of Dragonlance (excluding the Blue Lady's War, which was not earth-shattering). That's 70 years in-setting, which again is still far fewer than what one sees in the history of the US.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Right, but consider this in comparison with the history of the United States in regards to wars. In 200 years, we've had roughly 11 or so wars (quick estimate).
It's true, the history of Dragonlance is centered around the history of its wars. Many nations can say that. Certainly, the events of World War I and World War II have drastically altered the world we live in. So too have the Third Dragon War, War of the Lance, Chaos War, and War of Souls (amongst others).
At the same time, only 3 such wars were chronicled in the present in the 20 year real-world history of Dragonlance (excluding the Blue Lady's War, which was not earth-shattering). That's 70 years in-setting, which again is still far fewer than what one sees in the history of the US.
But is Krynn trying to be the U.S. or its own world ? I think people play RPG's to escape the reality of the real world for a short time.
So why would you just thrust them back into it by trying to make the fantasy world even more similar to the world we live in ?
~~~
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Right, but consider this in comparison with the history of the United States in regards to wars. In 200 years, we've had roughly 11 or so wars (quick estimate).
You know, I keep forgetting how small Ansalon is...if we're just going to compare "small" wars, then I suppose since the Cataclsym the Goblin Wars, the Qualinesti Border "dispute," the Blue Lady's War, and the fight against the Overlords should be put back in...which brings us up to 8 wars in the DL timeline. Yeah...that's not bad when compared to world history (heck...even just US history...I mean, most of those 11 only involved a country or two...not the entire world).
So...in that perspective, I don't suppose it's really too bad.
Let's face it, when you put this many drastically different cultures and ideals in such a small space...you're going to have many wars...a lot more than a place like Faerun, anyway.
a lot more than a place like Faerun, anyway.
Is Ansalon bigger than Faerun ?
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Is Ansalon bigger than Faerun ?
Oh no...Ansalon is tiny in comparison. At least, that was the impression I was always given. Now that I think about it, I don't know if I've ever personally compared the two.
Ansalon is about the size of Australia.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Oh no...Ansalon is tiny in comparison. At least, that was the impression I was always given. Now that I think about it, I don't know if I've ever personally compared the two.
Ansalon is about the size of Australia.
Ok. Thanks Brimstone, You know one thing that I like about the FR setting is that there are various storylines going at the same time yet they do not always intertwine. For instance you have the purple knights of Cormyr that have nothing to do with the Sword Coast inhabitants.
IMO Dragonlance has much more believable characters so why not make up more characters like Linsha Majere ? I like the spin that they put on the novels with her trilogy. Why not continue inventing characters like that for the 5th age campaign setting ?
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
IMO Dragonlance has much more believable characters so why not make up more characters like Linsha Majere ? I like the spin that they put on the novels with her trilogy. Why not continue inventing characters like that for the 5th age campaign setting ?
I do believe that's the basic plan. More story arcs set in the present time. Stories that all happen at once but have little or nothing to do with each other. Hopefully they'll avoid more discrepencies that way.
I think we're seeing some of the arcs. The Linsha Trilogy, Dhamon Saga, Minotaur Wars, and the upcoming Knights of Solamnia Trilogy. All set in the present era. They all add to the flavor and the story of Dragonlance...but they do it without stepping on each other's toes...so far. And of course you've got a lot of one shot stories that are supposed to do the same. So, I think you'll see a lot of great characters to use in your game from these new stories.Originally posted by Brimstone
I do believe that's the basic plan. More story arcs set in the present time. Stories that all happen at once but have little or nothing to do with each other. Hopefully they'll avoid more discrepencies that way.
See that is the turn that I wanted the 5th Age to take. I will definitely look forward to these new characters being brought into the world of Krynn.
Also with Taladas being developed our playground has become that much bigger. :D
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
But is Krynn trying to be the U.S. or its own world ? I think people play RPG's to escape the reality of the real world for a short time.
So why would you just thrust them back into it by trying to make the fantasy world even more similar to the world we live in ?
~~~
All I was saying is that it isn't unreasonable for there to be that many big wars in that time frame.
RPG's are an escape from reality, yet are often based on real-life events, such as war. The shape of those wars are different, though, being fantasy-based (i.e. riding dragons instead of flying jets).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
All I was saying is that it isn't unreasonable for there to be that many big wars in that time frame.
Of course and I definitely understood what you were trying to convey.
RPG's are an escape from reality, yet are often based on real-life events, such as war. The shape of those wars are different, though, being fantasy-based (i.e. riding dragons instead of flying jets).
I agree that things such as war cannot be left out of the fantasy world. I have a war going on in my homebrew campaign right now. However, I was trying to say that people play RPG's to escape reality for a small amount of time therefore it might not be a good idea to attempt to change the fantasy world into the very thing they are trying to escape.
It just makes the fantasy world dull, dreary, and full of the same problems that people experience in day-to-day life. In the game, you want to go, or take the players, somewhere different. If the fantasy world is just like the real world what is the use in calling it fantasy ?
~~~
The Linsha Trilogy
In short, What is the Linsha trilogy about ?
~~~
Originally posted by Nived
I believe Dhamon is suposed to have a part in the upcoming Lake of Death. He wont be the focus but he'll be in it.
What kind of character is Dhamon ? Meaning class, race, etc....Is he the one with the scale in his leg ?
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
What kind of character is Dhamon ? Meaning class, race, etc....Is he the one with the scale in his leg ?
~~~
Yes, he is the character with the dragon scale on his leg. He is a former Knight of Takhisis, but now he is a thief.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Yes, he is the character with the dragon scale on his leg. He is a former Knight of Takhisis, but now he is a thief.
Did Dhamon first make his appearance in the 5th age books ?
~~~
Originally posted by BrimStone
I was so incensed when I found out the "One God" was Takhisis...it turned the War of Souls in particular (the 5th Age in general) into another "Takhisis tries to take over the world" story. When I heard she was not going to survive the War of Souls...my jaw just dropped!
When I heard she was not going to survive the WoS I was doing backflips.
~~~
Originally posted by Daedavias
Yes, he is the character with the dragon scale on his leg. He is a former Knight of Takhisis, but now he is a thief.
And that scale gives him the ability to become so much more...
Originally posted by frostdawn
And that scale gives him the ability to become so much more...
I was going to get to that, but I didn't want to ruin the story.
BTW, Dhamon first appears in Dawning of a New Age, if I remember right.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
In other words, whether you liked the 5th Age materials or not, it happened, and “erasing” that would be a slap in the face to a good portion of the fan base, as well as lend little credibility towards your own writing ability.
I agree. Spilled milk.
The strains on the community have been there since day
one.
Before DoSF, fans wanted the world to grow in different directions, but they were starting from the same general place. This is not necessarily true today.
However, I think we’re at a point where there’s some good healing going on, and we can get back to being Dragonlance fans.
Agreed. Time heals or forgets all wounds.
it’s DL, so it’s good.
I (and I suspect most on these boards) am a bit more discerning and I actually think that is the greatest disservice that can be done to the Campaign. I may disagree with many here, but I want them to have a passion and a vision of how great DL can be. I just wish there was a more unified big picture.
Also consider that we, as human beings, are not ones who like change.
I have nothing against change. I merely consider the changes that have been made poor.
Dragonhelm, thank you for understanding me.
I am sorry to any who took offense at my viewpoints. I am passionate about a world that I have considered mine. I was also very tired and wanted to contribute to the thread without losing my train of thought. I have had many years of fun in DL, and I am trying to do what I can to ensure that I have many more.
Originally posted by Brimstone
It's exactly sentiments like this that are causing rifts between the fan base. What a stupid thing to even suggest as the truth. I like the new stuff...therefore I must not have as much invested in Dragonlance. Come on.
I think it reflects more than causes. It was a long post and there is a lot for you to take offense with if you are so inclined. You are correct in that my statement was as valid as saying that all fans should like the way DL is now more than how it used to be, because that is just how it is, or because the authors write it that way. I am sure that nothing could be better than the way things are now.
Originally posted by Brimstone
You know, I keep forgetting how small Ansalon is...
So, in that case, how many of the wars in DL in the last 500 years have encompassed ALL of Ansalon? Most, if not all.
How many have encompassed all of the US? Well, that's a matter of opinion - troops didn't march through the midwest during WWII.
Now, comparing Ansalon to Europe, because of size, is more accurate. So... in European history in the last 500 years, you have constant war, but not alot of full-fledged, continent-wide wars (Napoleon, WWI, WWII are the biggest ones to spring to mind).
The wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation in Europe spread from Italy to Scandinavia. Look how far European armies travelled to undertake the Crusades.
I don't think Ansalon has had an unsual amount of conflict.
Originally posted by Soulsong
It was a long post and there is a lot for you to take offense with if you are so inclined.
Actually...I thought the post was mostly just your view point on how you feel Dragonlance should be. There's nothing wrong with that. I didn't feel it was offensive, I disagreed with it, but I didn't take offense to it. But that one comment, I did take offense to.
Originally posted by Soulsong
You are correct in that my statement was as valid as saying that all fans should like the way DL is now more than how it used to be, because that is just how it is, or because the authors write it that way.
I don't know what you're talking about. I took offense to the fact that you said I like the 5th Age...therefore I must not have as much invested in Dragonlance as you do. And that's just stupid. It had nothing to do with which version of Dragonlance is more valid. No version of Dragonlance is more valid than any other as far as I'm concerned (except for the version with kodragons ;)). But to insinuate that you have more invested in Dragonlance than I do simply because you don't like the 5th Age...yeah, I'm gonna take offense to that.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Now, comparing Ansalon to Europe, because of size, is more accurate. So... in European history in the last 500 years, you have constant war, but not alot of full-fledged, continent-wide wars (Napoleon, WWI, WWII are the biggest ones to spring to mind).
Yeah...then there's the Hundred Years War between England and France. England vs. Spain vs. France. This last centure has been Germany and Austria and Italy and Hungary. Then of course you've got all the little wars that have been popping up in Europe thanks to the capitalism vs. communism split at the end of WWII.
Yeah...Europe has been a pretty volitile place over the last 3000 years...much like Ansalon.
Good point, Craig.
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
Most Ansalonian wars don't encompass the whole continent (look at the War of Souls - mainly focus on Solamnia, Neraka and Silvanesti).
Yet it reached Qualinost as well, the influence of the KoT and Takhisis herself atleast, which is close enough to the western edge of Ansalon.
But then, with Ansalon being as small as it is, it isn't hard at all to encompass the entire continent in a war.
Originally posted by frostdawn
And that scale gives him the ability to become so much more...
I saw his stats in the Age of Mortals accessory. He becomes a shadow dragon right ?
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Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I saw his stats in the Age of Mortals accessory. He becomes a shadow dragon right ?
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HE BECOMES A WHAT????????? :OMG!
jk:D
Originally posted by Brimstone
Ansalon is about the size of Australia.
Good Gilean no! Ansalon is nowhere near the size of Australia, it is much smaller.
Australia at maximum is 2,500 miles east-west and 2,000 miles north-south.
Ansalon is 1,300 miles east-west and 900 miles north-south.
Ansalon is much closer to Greenland in terms of size.
~~~
Silvanoshei was fanatically in love with Mina, Takhisis is a fanatical villain, Mina was fanatically devoted to Takhisis, Dalamar is fanatically attached to the magic. I mean come on now. That is just too much.
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Originally posted by iltharanos
Good Gilean no! Ansalon is nowhere near the size of Australia, it is much smaller.
Australia at maximum is 2,500 miles east-west and 2,000 miles north-south.
Ansalon is 1,300 miles east-west and 900 miles north-south.
Ansalon is much closer to Greenland in terms of size.
Okay...now who's smoking crack? ;)
Greenland is about 500 miles wide and about 1000 miles long. It's less than half the size of Ansalon.
Now, according to my map and calculations...Australia is rougly 1700 miles east to west and about 1000 miles north to south (averaged...and not counting Tasmania). (I'm not taking the widest points...I'm taking the averages...so there can be a comparable size to the pre-Cataclysmic Ansalon).
Personally...I think Australia is a much better size comparison for Ansalon than Greenland.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Silvanoshei was fanatically in love with Mina, Takhisis is a fanatical villain, Mina was fanatically devoted to Takhisis, Dalamar is fanatically attached to the magic. I mean come on now. That is just too much.
Well...Takhisis is a goddess of evil, so she is incapable of anything else...that's how gods work (at least in DL). And Dalamar has always been attached to the magic.
But that's not the point. The point is that you still refuse to look beyond the War of Souls. Just because the WoS is that way, doesn't mean the whole 5th Age was. Like I said...that is 3 books in 30 (roughly). 3 in 30...you can't make a fair blanket statment (if such a thing even exists) on the whole era based off of one trilogy.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...Takhisis is a goddess of evil, so she is incapable of anything else...that's how gods work (at least in DL). And Dalamar has always been attached to the magic.
All I can say is I am sooo happy that she keeled over.
But that's not the point. The point is that you still refuse to look beyond the War of Souls. Just because the WoS is that way, doesn't mean the whole 5th Age was. Like I said...that is 3 books in 30 (roughly). 3 in 30...you can't make a fair blanket statment (if such a thing even exists) on the whole era based off of one trilogy.
I will be picking up some new novels this weekend along with the module. Maybe they will serve to brighten my outlook on the 5th Age.....I hope. And that still does not justify for the excessive usage of fanaticism. They milked that cow- along with the Takhisis trying to take over the world cow- to death.
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Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I will be picking up some new novels this weekend along with the module. Maybe they will serve to brighten my outlook on the 5th Age.....I hope.
It may. But it might not, who knows. What I do know is that you won't see much fanatacism (at least not in the essence you're speaking...although Malys is pretty fanatical)...but I can promise...no Takhisis.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Okay...now who's smoking crack? ;)
Um, you are. Seriously. You've gotta be on crack. That, or the map you're looking at was made by a crack head. Hmm, maybe both. ;-P
Don't believe my figures? Look them up in any encyclopedia or click on the link below.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=3413
It may help to take Ansalon's maximum lengths (1300 miles east-west and 900 miles north-south) and to measure them out on a map of Australia. You'll see just how tiny Ansalon is.
Greenland is about 500 miles wide and about 1000 miles long. It's less than half the size of Ansalon.
Now, according to my map and calculations...Australia is rougly 1700 miles east to west and about 1000 miles north to south (averaged...and not counting Tasmania). (I'm not taking the widest points...I'm taking the averages...so there can be a comparable size to the pre-Cataclysmic Ansalon).
Personally...I think Australia is a much better size comparison for Ansalon than Greenland. [/b]
Greenland is nowhere near smaller than Ansalon. As the link below will attest, Greenland has dimensions of 1,659 miles north-south and some 800 miles east-west. If anything, Greenland is larger than Ansalon. My sources? Every encyclopedia in existence, and the link below if you don't feel like looking in an encyclopedia.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=19979
The map of Greenland I used was:
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/gl.htm
And the map for Australia I used was:
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/australasia/australia/australia.htm
I didn't go the widest points, because you can't compare and contrast it to the size of Ansalon (which I used the pre-Cataclsym map because it's a nice symetrical shape that is only slightly smaller than post-Cataclysm Ansalon). You especially can't compare and contrast with Greenland or Australia's widest points because they have long slender protutions.
I still hold by my statement that Ansalon is closer to the size of Australia than it is Greenland (if the two maps I'm using are accurate).
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/oceania/au.htm
And it says (by my calculation) that Australia's land mass is over twice that of Ansalon. And I thought...there's no way that can be right...so I compare that with the Lonely Planet website. Now, I haven't measured it...but doesn't it look like to you that according to the scales...the Austrailia on "worldatlas" is twice the size of the on on "Lonely Planet?"
I give up.
Anyway...I still think Greenland is too small (it's at least 50% smaller than pre-Cataclysm Ansalon...by square milage). But I will succeed that Australia is a poor comparison as well.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I have no idea what you're talking about, honestly. Krynn's Age of Mortals is just as rich and brimming with locales, ideas, people, places, adventure hooks, and situations as it ever was, especially given the expansion of such things as magic, knightly orders, dragonkind, the removal of the monolithic gods of good and evil and focus on the other members of Krynn's pantheon, and so forth.
Eh, if you say so. I disagree. It details a teeny bit about what is going on random cities, but frankly they can all be summed up with:
"Construction contracts are through the roof".
Lord Toede is back in Flotsam, but he isn't doing anything beyond sitting by the ruins of his manor for pete's sake. He's not scheming, he's not plotting, or if he is there is no signs of fruition to tantalize us.
There is no sense of anything momentous happening except in Silvanesti, where there there is an active enslavement of the population going on. Solanthus could be interesting too, with the new governing merchant's council, but they just seem to want to be left alone. There is no charismatic leader among them, no idealistic movement or reason behind booting out the Solamnic Knights, and no real hint of what there is planned in the future.
This of course all stems from the lack of a good Geography chapter in the DLCS, which completely failed to explain the politics and culture of Ansalon. Without that, there are few adventure hooks and little excitement.
Imagine if the Forgotten Realms had not had its good geography chapter. We would know perhaps that the Drow are infesting Cormanthyr (the minotaurs infesting Silvanesti), there is a new Shadow magic (there is a new sorcery), the Wizards of Thay have shifted tactics (the WoHS are going to war with the sorcerers) but little else. There would also perhaps be the City of the Spider Queen superadventure, as we have our own Key of Destiny.
However, they have more grist for the mill and more excitement for their campaign setting because they took the time to explore the world. They know some of the schemes of the Zhentariam while we know nothing about what the Knights of Nereka are up to before ASHES and AMBER. They know what the politically unstable Cormyr looks like and what adventures could be held there, while we know nothing of who controls Solamnia. I could go on and on.
So don't be shocked Cam that people have an "empty" feeling about post-WoS Krynn anymore than we were shocked about exact same thing in both the Old 2e D&D era and the 5th Age. Explore the world, explore a variety of adventure hooks that you don't necessarily need to explore any further or save for an upcoming book and you'll have lots of excitement about the campaign world.