I understand many of you think my version of the Dragons is out there, but the thing about it is, in my opinion, the "flavor/filler text" defines the setting, not the gamesystem mechanics. The two were almost mutually exclusive in 2E - everything mentioned about the SK's, Dragons, and whatnot (other than when defining the gamesystem mechanics) gives the impression of a very, very long process. One that can't be completed as quickly as defined in the Dragon Advanded being writeups in Preservers & Defilers, or Dragon Kings.
Another point is that in the write-ups found in P&D and DK, it includes many things that don't fit for Athas - like travelling to the outer planes, getting the help of outsider beings, etc. This just doesn't juve well with me.
As such, I felt that, when I was concieving of the development of the progressions, I should look at making thm longer, and probably use a different approach to it. something that would mesh better with Dark Sun, without the feel of being "contrieved" - that is, using materials for things that don't apply to Dark Sun at all. I let this stew for a while. Then the Epic Level Handbook was released, and I saw a possibility, using epic spells for each stage - and I had even considered making it not even a class, but rather a collection of epic spells the spellcasrter would have to research, develop and then cast on himself in order to advance. But, after playtesting in 3 different campaigns with epic characters, I've come to the realization that the epic spellcasting ability is broken. The so-called epic spells are either too insignificant to do anything (and could be better done by simply casting any number of level 4 or higher spells anyway), or are downright lethal to the caster (unless the caster is somewhere in the area code of level 80 or so). I sat, and with two of my players, we tore the entire epic spellcasting system apart, trying to make it useful, for six full days. We couldn't. Not without really redesigning the system from the ground up. so, This kinda made me less interested in using a pure spell-based metamorphosis.
I came up with the four stages, losely based on the way the metamorphosis effects were written in the P&D and DK books. They have parts that are grouped for levels 21-23, 24-26, 27-29 and 30. Certian metamorphic changes happen in specific times, based on those patterns. So, I figured, make it a four-stage process. I was gonna make 4 prestige classes to do this - however, honestly, there wasn't a need for a fourth prestige class, since the last "stage" was effectively a single level, the completion of the metamorphosis. so, 3 prestige classes, and what to do for the last part? I needed something that would represent an instantanious change - a template works for that. So, the last stage could be a template.
How would te template be applied, however - ahh, yet another thing - use an epic spell (even though the system's broken, I decided I'd make an epic spell that lne without following the formulas for making epic spells in the ELH - so technically, they aren't "kosher" epic spells, but who cares, they are different than your normal epic spells anyway). so, an epic spell is used to apply the template - and I could do an epic spell & template for the start of each stage - represeting the immediate changes that affect the caster, followed by a prestige class for the slower changes & developments that follow for the first 3 stages (and get everything worked out right).
That's how I came to the process of:
Epic spell (1) -> template (1) -> Prestige Class (1)
-> Epic spell (2) -> template (2) -> Prestige Class (2)
-> Epic spell (3) -> template (3) -> Prestige Class (3)
-> Epic spell (4) -> template (4)
Originally, my prestige classes were between 8 and 12 levels each. However, it was suggested that every "epic" prestige class should probably be at least 10 levels. I restructured them to all be 10 levels each. so, it becomes a 30-level development process for the metamorphosis. Which is 3x longer than it used to be, with the inclusion of development and casting of 4 different epic spells, each progressively harder to do, and the application of a template after each spell.
This gave me a more "epic" feel for the development of a Dragon & an Avangion. this helped me visualize how the surviving Dragon Kings could be only so far in their progressions, even though they have hardly been inactive. I mean - apply the concept of how XP works for a PC - how much XP one gets for an encounter and such. Now, look at each of the Sorcerer-Kings, and tell me they have been sitting on their thumbs, doing nothing over the last couple thousand years. Look at Hamanu, and tell me that he's done nothing (killed Dregoth, sielba, assisted in the killing of Kalid-Ma, regularly declares war on different places, and rather than leading from the rear, he's out on the front lines, literally leading his army into combat). So, can you homnesly tell me he deserves to be only level 23? I say that is very unlikely.
Now, about the requirements for the metamorphosis. I did start with a level 20/level 20 requirement. I moved to "20 levels as an arcane caster & 20 levels as a psionic manifester" However, I had been discussing, on the Epic board here on Wizards of the coast (and some of the arguements were here on this very forum) about the usefulness of multiclassing as a spellcaster or manifester. The usefulness isn't nearly as good as multiclassing as a more melee tyle class (fighter, rogue, etc), because of spell & power resistances, and caster/manifester levels. Multiclassing as a spellcaster or manifester doesn't equate to meaning the same in D&D v. 3.0 or 3.5 rules as it did in AD&D 2nd Ed. Basically, they get short-changed. I even saw this play out in two of my campaigns - any caster who multiclassed out of their caster class into another one (rather than into a Prestige Class that increased their caster levels in their previous class, or just sticking to one class) became significantly underpowered, due to the differences I already listed above, as well as the sheer power jumps between each level of spells or powers. so, making such a hard requirement actually hurts the caster - if the prospective dragon had 20 levels of Wizard and 20 levels of Psion (for instance), compared to a level 40 Wizard, he'd be dead - the level 40 wizard could easily bypass any spell resistances he had, would be more capable at casting spells, and all together far superior to the prospective Dragon (make up 2 characters like that, and test it - the wizard 20/psion 20 would lose in a fight against a level 40 wizard or a level 40 psion). Not exactly something that inspires me to believe that the Dragon Kings are the most feared, and powerful arcane and psionic creatures on Athas. So, how to rectify this. I look to the Mystic Theurge (and well, now the Cerebremancer), which increases a +1 to two different classes (divine & arcane for mystic theurge, arcane & psionic for cerebremancer) each level. well, this helps significantly, and I don't see a problem in adding that to the Dragon & Avangion prestige classes (which I did). So, now the Dragon or Avangion increases a +1 in their arcane & psionic class level each level of the metamorphosis PrC's he takes. this means they get more and more powerful. However, there's still the issue about 20 levels of arcane spellcaster & 20 levels of psionic manifester (left open like that for people including the sorcerer class to Dark Sun, as well as it helps with the development of the Wilder class now in the XPH). this still cripples their ability. So, instead of levels in classes, I tried spell/power levels. 9th level spells/9th level powers would be the obvious choice. Note, however, this means that wizards would only need 17 levels to do this, Sorcerers would need 18 levels, Psion would need 17 levels, Wilders woould need 18 (I know, Wilders didn't used to exist, however the rules still apply for that class, I'd say). by not having a specific class requirement, this also means that a wizard/psion, wizard/wilder, sorcerer/psion, and sorcerer/wilder combination could achieve the metamorphosis- this allows for more customization, and, IMHO, more variations between dragons & avangions.
So, with the spell level requirement, instead of caster/manifester level requirements, I've stripped between 4 and 6 levels off of the total 40 requirement. Not too bad, especially considering that in the first stage of metamorphosis's prestige class, they'd make back those levels. However, a requirement of 34 - 36 levels still seems steep to me (from playtestig experiences with level 30-40 characters in the past). So, I thought about reducing one of the two requirements - but which one? I did a lot of digging around, and the Sorcerer-Kings are more associated with arcane magic than psionic powers in written text (by this I mean their magic comes up more frequently than their psionics). Further, the way level 10 spells are freferred to as "Psionic Enchantments", gives the impression that the psionics enhance magic, not magic enhancing psionics. This would mean that magic is the base power, with psionics adding to it to increase the effectiveness. So, I keep the magic requirement at 9th level spells. However I lower the psionic requirement. But, how much? well, there's a new class in 3.0/3.5e that didn't exist in 2e AD&D - the Psychic Warrior. And the Psychic Warrior can manifest up to 6th level powers. Seemed reasonable to me, so I adjusted the psionic requrement down 3 levels, and said that they need to manifest up to 6th level powers.
This means that psions now need to be only level 11, wilders need to be level 12, and psychic warriors would need to be level 16. This also means that the possible combinations for becoming a Dragon or Avangion could be: wizard/psion (28 level minimum), wizard/wilder (29 level), wizard/psychic warrior (34 level), sorcerer/psion (29 level), sorcerer/wilder (30 level), and sorcerer/psychic warrior (35 level) (once again, the sorcerer would only be included if a DM desires to include the sorcerer class). that's 6 possible variations, with bae classes only, that could become a dragon or avangion. Obviously, a Wizard/Psion would achieve this faster than the other combinations - guess hard work and extreme study pays off a bit, plus, this means that the wizard/psion, at level 24, would have been an epic character for 4 levels - so they still would be an epic metamorphosis process, it's not like you're gonna see level 18 characters beginning the transformation.
And like that, I adjusted the metamorphosis to include a few of the variant classes provided in the d20 system (3.0/3.5 rules). I also have dealt with (somewhat) the problems inherent in multi-classing as a spellcaster & a psionic character. the next one was - with version 3.0 rules, came the fact that any race could be any of the base classes. As such, I felt a need to rewrite the metamorphosis slightly to accept any race as a possible candidate - making the only restriction being that thedragon/avangion candidate is alive (or else, Dregoth would have achieved his final stage by now, and keeping with the "feel" of Dark Sun). I rewrote the size increases based on a variable size for the caster (from small Halflings to large Half-Giants, or really any height/weight/size possible in the system now). I used the height/weight changes from the write-ups in P&D and in DK to achieve this.
The end result was a process that was epic in feel and in time, as well as massive in it's overal requirements and ability. One that met, in my opinion many of the requirements to be 3e or 3.5e. One that would make for a tempting possibility for a spellcaster to undergo - as there was many advantages to the change. One made up of several actually quite simple solutions to the whole problem. It all fit so perfectly together, that it made complete sense - not only to me, but to others as well.
However, it is quite a deviation from the original 2e Dragon/Avangion Advanced Being kits/classes. But, I believe it is better suited for Dark Sun than a straight conversion. It keeps the feel and flavor of Dark Sun, using the feel & flavor found in writing for Dark Sun as it's basis, retaining much of the uniqueness that Dark Sun has provided. This is what I designed.
---
I know my Dragons & Avangions aren't up currently to be looked at, however I am working steadily t solving this problem.
I have the write-ups for Dragons and what as been done as yet on Avangions, on my computer: anyone wants to check out Xlor's advanced beings before his site comes back online, give me your email and I'll send the docs to you.
Gabriel Hargens template system is really, really good. What makes it unqiue is that you don't spend XP to progress, you use sphere's and life essence - a neat twist on the thing, and also explains WHY they took so long to transform.
Also then allows a 20/20 wiz/psion to take levels in say, Arch Mage, Epic Psion etc...
I'd advocate people read this one:
www.thornyscrate.com/~gabe/Dragon_Template.html
and have a think about the possibilites.... you could develop epic prestige classes to cover:
* Rajaat's champions
* Accelerated imposters (Hammanu)
* Epic Generals
* Epic Nobles / Tyrants etc
That way, the 10-class template system slowly progresses the character toward dragon hood... whils they accumulate levels in other things...
anyway, more detailed reply soon - and i promise Xlor, that i'll also point out the stuff i like about your conversion, not just what i think is wrong with it (which is my thinking, doesn't mean it's right)
Since your site is down, how could I get a copy of this work?
If possible, could you email me what you've done?
My email address is slingbld @ comcast . net
(sorry, I hate spammers that troll message boards)
Thanks!!
I plan to use what you got and I hope athas.org does too, though they will probably modify it some first.
Good job all around IMO though.
Originally posted by slingbld
Where can I get a copy of what you have done for this?
Since your site is down, how could I get a copy of this work?
If possible, could you email me what you've done?
My email address is slingbld @ comcast . net
(sorry, I hate spammers that troll message boards)
Thanks!!
Help me jog my memory, did I e-mail you a copy or not?
And, Athas.org is currently reviewing my rules. I really do need to sit down and formulate the "Avangion Magic" rules, to get everything more completed - as well as begin my massive overhaul to sort of "clean up" the metamorphosis (well, it may not be that massive) - I have a tendancy of making my projects simpler and make more sense over time... When I get the chance to do it.
I've one small point, though. One point you made was that a 40th level arcane spellcaster or manifester could wipe the floor with a 20th level spellcaster/manifester combination. This is certainly true, the 3.0/3.5 paradigm does focus on making a single class, especially a spellcasting one, more powerful than a split.
However, one aspect of Epic levels that's specifically stated in the Epic Level Handbook is that ascending to 21st level is never a small issue, and that you can state in any given campaign that it's not possible to do except in certain circumstances.
My personal opinion of Athas is that it's a setting where exceeding 20th level is only possible through certain means. For one thing, I hate the thought of the sorcerer-kings getting so powerful that the players have NO hope of even trying to challenge them. At least in 2E they stood a glimmer of a chance. In 3E, a 50th level epic character wouldn't even break a sweat fighting an army of 20th level characters.
I personally favor a prestige class system with 10 levels to represent "dragon" levels. The requirement to get the class would be the ability to manifest 5th level powers and cast 5th level arcane spells. So a prospective dragon would need to be 18th-20th level, this leaves a little room for a spare class. Then his dragon class adds +2 to his caster and manifester levels per dragon level for purposes of spellcasting/power manifesting. This means a 10th level psion/10th level wizard/5th level dragon would have the abilities of a 20th level wizard and a 20th level prion. Probably the old curves with physical and mental changes for dragons needs to be scaled up so the sane portion lasts up to 8th level, 9th level is the "insane with rage" level, and 10th is full dragon.
(Dregoth would be an exception to the rule, a dragon-king who actually didn't go mad during the process. To be honest, I think a decent addition to the fiction there would be Borys himself feared that Dregoth could be a more powerful full dragon than him.)
Anyway, I just threw some of that out on the cuff, so it's probably ragged. Feel free to rip my arguments to shreads, I just wanted to add my two ceramic bits in.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Help me jog my memory,
/me jogs DH's memory by hitting him on the head *hard* then promptly watches DH fall to the ground unconscious
I think I jogged him too hard.
:embarrass
Did you consider making some requirements different for a dragon than for an avangion? I can completely see how the 6th level power requirement is appropriate to allow psychic warriors the option to become advanced beings, and it fits with what we know about Hamanu and Borys in particular (aside from skipping steps with the aid of artifacts). I personally think it fits exceptionally well for dragon metamorphisis, but I feel like an avangion should have to be able to manifest 9th level powers.
For me, it's a way to emphasize the mastery of one's self that allows the corresponding mastery of magic that goes along with becoming an avangion.
Obviously this then creates the problem of SR and PR versus the caster / manifester levels for an appropriate challenge rating. (unless the character had been advancing as a cerbremancer I suppose) Possible solutions I've thrown around would be to allow the avangion to gain some credit for manifester levels towards caster levels and vice versa, like a Paladin counts half of his levels for his caster level on spells.
Alternatively there could be advanced being only feats that expand the power and spell penetration lines, but since they wouldn't become available until after beginning the change, this doesn't help the 20 wizard / 10 psion against the 30 wizard I suppose. A third suggestion would be a psionic enchantment feat that would allow the expenditure of PSP's when casting a spell to augment the caster level. This wouldn't help for power resistance obviously, but perhaps burning a spell slot for an augmented power would achieve the same impact for PR.
I also really like the extended progression, in abstract at least, it just feels considerably more epic. I would guess as a player I might consider it a bit long, we tend to level slowly in our games, so this represents years of real time.
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Very nice work, xlorepdarkhelm. I can tell you put a lot of work into this.
I've one small point, though. One point you made was that a 40th level arcane spellcaster or manifester could wipe the floor with a 20th level spellcaster/manifester combination. This is certainly true, the 3.0/3.5 paradigm does focus on making a single class, especially a spellcasting one, more powerful than a split.
True. Something to note - when dealing with melee-type classes that have no spellcasting (or manifesting) ability, multiclassing doesn't cripple the character like it does with spellcasters/manifesters. The crippling effect has a lot to do with spellcaster or manifester level reliance by the spells & powers, as well as to overcome spell or power resistance. For what it's worth, Unearthed Arcana has a ort of solution to this.
However, one aspect of Epic levels that's specifically stated in the Epic Level Handbook is that ascending to 21st level is never a small issue, and that you can state in any given campaign that it's not possible to do except in certain circumstances.
While true, it isn't something that is directly supported through rules mechanics, but rather roleplaying structures. But this is even MORE of a reason to reduce the initial requirement from being level 40 to being closer to 20 - like my setup which has the potential of a character starting at level 28. (with the Cerebmancer PrC, it is possible to start at level 21, but as I've said before, I don't like that PrC - and that character would most likely die from the casting of the epic spells for each stage)
My personal opinion of Athas is that it's a setting where exceeding 20th level is only possible through certain means. For one thing, I hate the thought of the sorcerer-kings getting so powerful that the players have NO hope of even trying to challenge them. At least in 2E they stood a glimmer of a chance. In 3E, a 50th level epic character wouldn't even break a sweat fighting an army of 20th level characters.
I point to the Mind Lords - who are psions that I'd guess are in their upper 80's or so in level. Some people would rather ignore the Mind Lords of the Last Sea supplement because of the silliness of many of the things in it, but I find parts of it useful - and the Miond Lords didn't undergo any Advanced Being changes. They abhor magic) In my campaigns, I allow for people, if they can reach those levels, to go above level 20. However the type of encounters they deal with changes. to include encounters with Sorcerer-Kings who may see them as a potential threat (or pawn).
I personally favor a prestige class system with 10 levels to represent "dragon" levels. The requirement to get the class would be the ability to manifest 5th level powers and cast 5th level arcane spells. So a prospective dragon would need to be 18th-20th level, this leaves a little room for a spare class. Then his dragon class adds +2 to his caster and manifester levels per dragon level for purposes of spellcasting/power manifesting. This means a 10th level psion/10th level wizard/5th level dragon would have the abilities of a 20th level wizard and a 20th level prion. Probably the old curves with physical and mental changes for dragons needs to be scaled up so the sane portion lasts up to 8th level, 9th level is the "insane with rage" level, and 10th is full dragon.
But the very nature of a Dragon is that they are Epic. They should never be possible for a less-than-epic character to achieve. The known Dragons on Athas not only are Epic, but have been doing the metamorphosis process for about 2,000 years. and short of those who found shortcuts (or Dregoth, who I personally believe had started the process early and actually invented the Dragon metamorphosis process all together, or Hamanu who I tfeel has his variant Dragon metamorphosis integrated into his becoming a Champion of Rajaat) - namely Borys (who had the help of the Dark Lens and the other Sorcerer-Kings to rapidly push through the process), Kalid-Ma (who had the....ahem..... help unknowingly from the Ravenloft Dark Powers and got nailed by it - a Sorcerer-King was made into a pawn by the Dark Powers to ensnare his high templar), or Kalak (who had to make a massive zigguraut and was planning on sacrificing his entire city to accelerate his development) they haven't completed the process (or gotten very close for that matter - especially for characters who are racking up a LOT of experience - like Hamanu, Mr. "fight his wars from the front lines, leading his armies into battle"). This leads me to believe that the process is long - and difficult. Which is why I changed it from 10 levels to 30 levels. I also added in 4 epic spells that have to be developed/researched by the individual, that result in a template being applied to them and the "unlocking" of the subsequent PrC.
(Dregoth would be an exception to the rule, a dragon-king who actually didn't go mad during the process. To be honest, I think a decent addition to the fiction there would be Borys himself feared that Dregoth could be a more powerful full dragon than him.)
I like tht the Sorcerer-Kings aren't even completely aware of what the process entails, and thus panic and kill Dregoth effectively after he would have gone insane from the metamorphosis. fear of the unknown is a strong motivator.
b[]Anyway, I just threw some of that out on the cuff, so it's probably ragged. Feel free to rip my arguments to shreads, I just wanted to add my two ceramic bits in.
Adamantyr [/b]
All in all, not really a bad line of thought, but they are things I have mulled over in my head before and came up with solutions to
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Help me jog my memory, did I e-mail you a copy or not?
Not to me.
I'd love to see a copy of it though. I'm looking to start a DS game this summer. They are going to start out at level 5 but I realy plan on trying to take them all the way to 30 or higher...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
While true, it isn't something that is directly supported through rules mechanics, but rather roleplaying structures. But this is even MORE of a reason to reduce the initial requirement from being level 40 to being closer to 20 - like my setup which has the potential of a character starting at level 28. (with the Cerebmancer PrC, it is possible to start at level 21, but as I've said before, I don't like that PrC - and that character would most likely die from the casting of the epic spells for each stage)
I disagree. If you don't use Epic level rules, you can't advance beyond 20th. It is not just a roleplaying issue to say you can't go beyond 20th. It is perfectly permissible to use templates and prestige classes only to exceed 20th level.
I point to the Mind Lords - who are psions that I'd guess are in their upper 80's or so in level. Some people would rather ignore the Mind Lords of the Last Sea supplement because of the silliness of many of the things in it, but I find parts of it useful - and the Miond Lords didn't undergo any Advanced Being changes. They abhor magic) In my campaigns, I allow for people, if they can reach those levels, to go above level 20. However the type of encounters they deal with changes. to include encounters with Sorcerer-Kings who may see them as a potential threat (or pawn).
Level 80? I don't think so. The most powerful of the Mind Lords was Thesik, and he had 401 PSP's. I would put the Mind Lords in the 21-30 range as Psions. Their "time scry" power is definitely epic, but it took all three working for decades to develop it. As for how they exceeded level, they're Green Age Psions, so you can easily say they don't follow the same rules.
But the very nature of a Dragon is that they are Epic. They should never be possible for a less-than-epic character to achieve. The known Dragons on Athas not only are Epic, but have been doing the metamorphosis process for about 2,000 years. and short of those who found shortcuts (or Dregoth, who I personally believe had started the process early and actually invented the Dragon metamorphosis process all together, or Hamanu who I tfeel has his variant Dragon metamorphosis integrated into his becoming a Champion of Rajaat) - namely Borys (who had the help of the Dark Lens and the other Sorcerer-Kings to rapidly push through the process), Kalid-Ma (who had the....ahem..... help unknowingly from the Ravenloft Dark Powers and got nailed by it - a Sorcerer-King was made into a pawn by the Dark Powers to ensnare his high templar), or Kalak (who had to make a massive zigguraut and was planning on sacrificing his entire city to accelerate his development) they haven't completed the process (or gotten very close for that matter - especially for characters who are racking up a LOT of experience - like Hamanu, Mr. "fight his wars from the front lines, leading his armies into battle"). This leads me to believe that the process is long - and difficult. Which is why I changed it from 10 levels to 30 levels. I also added in 4 epic spells that have to be developed/researched by the individual, that result in a template being applied to them and the "unlocking" of the subsequent PrC.
I don't dispute that Dragons are Epic. I think you're mixing up some context, here, though. Trying to tie correlations between time passed and experience gain causes problems. The Sorcerer-Kings are 2,000 years old, but they haven't done much in that time except rule their city-states. As for Hamanu's fighting, he's certainly gaining nothing from fighting anything less than his own level of power, and I'd personally rule that sorcerer-kings fighting sorcerer-kings gain no experience, win or lose, unless one or the other kills the loser. Hamanu's definitely got some gains from his Champion days, what with aiding in the killing of Kalid-Ma, Dregoth, and also taking out Sielba personally, but most of the other sorcerer-kings have had comparatively dull lives since the Cleansing Wars.
But let's not forget they are NPC's... NPC's are there for the sake of the players, not vice-versa.
I like tht the Sorcerer-Kings aren't even completely aware of what the process entails, and thus panic and kill Dregoth effectively after he would have gone insane from the metamorphosis. fear of the unknown is a strong motivator.
Agreed. I definitely think a system to define the abilities and powers of epic-level Athasian creatures is needed, but the players should not be aware of HOW to reach those points. A good example of this done badly would be the old Immortal rules with their "paths to immortality". Yeesh.
All in all, not really a bad line of thought, but they are things I have mulled over in my head before and came up with solutions to
And they are good solutions. My primary concern here is this: it seems to me a system that pumps up level requirements is going to essentially make the game unplayable for anyone less than Epic. I've seen some heavy epic-level campaigns, and the system gets less and less reliable as the levels increase.
Some of the factors that make Dark Sun fun is that the players are definitely overmatched, but they can and do have a chance to succeed. The Prism Pentad is essentially a story of a group of characters very much like a party of players doing just that.
Also, in context of the storyline, the sorcerer-kings would definitely band together, hunt down, and eradicate anyone who was a potential risk. A 40th level wizard may be able to fight a 20th/20th sorcerer-king, but see if he can actually live long enough to get that power!
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
I disagree. If you don't use Epic level rules, you can't advance beyond 20th. It is not just a roleplaying issue to say you can't go beyond 20th. It is perfectly permissible to use templates and prestige classes only to exceed 20th level.
But - the Epic rules are specifically for characters advancing past 20. Not just classes. So, any Character who is level 21, no matter how he came to that, is, by definition epic. It's a roleplaying issue if you are trying to say they cannot simply advance to level 21 without accomplishing something else besides XP. Period.
Level 80? I don't think so. The most powerful of the Mind Lords was Thesik, and he had 401 PSP's. I would put the Mind Lords in the 21-30 range as Psions. Their "time scry" power is definitely epic, but it took all three working for decades to develop it. As for how they exceeded level, they're Green Age Psions, so you can easily say they don't follow the same rules.
I'm not gonna argue about this. I feel they should be much more powerful than presented in the 2e rules. The rules don't make the setting, the setting defines the rules. Simple as that.
I don't dispute that Dragons are Epic. I think you're mixing up some context, here, though. Trying to tie correlations between time passed and experience gain causes problems. The Sorcerer-Kings are 2,000 years old, but they haven't done much in that time except rule their city-states. As for Hamanu's fighting, he's certainly gaining nothing from fighting anything less than his own level of power, and I'd personally rule that sorcerer-kings fighting sorcerer-kings gain no experience, win or lose, unless one or the other kills the loser. Hamanu's definitely got some gains from his Champion days, what with aiding in the killing of Kalid-Ma, Dregoth, and also taking out Sielba personally, but most of the other sorcerer-kings have had comparatively dull lives since the Cleansing Wars.
First, they are actually all about 6,000 years old (if I recall). Most of them have only been dragons for about 2,000. They might not have been doing much against each other directly, except for, once again Hamanu. Hamanu is responsible for the death of Sielba - a Sorcerer-Queen. He also had killed Dregoth, and had a hand in the slaughter of Kalid-Ma. This is a guy who has time & again attacked and killed Champion or mortal alike. sure, he probably doesn't get much for XP from charging into battle, however there's gotta be the occasional person who at least gives him *some* XP. I mean just because you are level 21+ doesn't mean you stop getting XP from CR 20 or lower. And yes, I think that time definitely DOES represent a lot. These individuals had to establish their cities, and ensure their domains. They frequently deal with all kinds of uprisings, while generally consindering them nuisences. You can't think that they have been sitting on their preverbial THUMBS for 2,000 years. I'm sorry, it makes no sense to think that to me.
b[]But let's not forget they are NPC's... NPC's are there for the sake of the players, not vice-versa.[/b]
And yet they are part of the game world. Just because they are NPC's doesn't mean they are simply props on a stage. I play my games as if it is a real, viable full world with living people in it, not statues.
Agreed. I definitely think a system to define the abilities and powers of epic-level Athasian creatures is needed, but the players should not be aware of HOW to reach those points. A good example of this done badly would be the old Immortal rules with their "paths to immortality". Yeesh.
I never tell my players how to achieve advanced being stages. They have to figure it out though good roleplaying.
And they are good solutions. My primary concern here is this: it seems to me a system that pumps up level requirements is going to essentially make the game unplayable for anyone less than Epic. I've seen some heavy epic-level campaigns, and the system gets less and less reliable as the levels increase.
Some of the factors that make Dark Sun fun is that the players are definitely overmatched, but they can and do have a chance to succeed. The Prism Pentad is essentially a story of a group of characters very much like a party of players doing just that.
Also, in context of the storyline, the sorcerer-kings would definitely band together, hunt down, and eradicate anyone who was a potential risk. A 40th level wizard may be able to fight a 20th/20th sorcerer-king, but see if he can actually live long enough to get that power!
Adamantyr
But Advanced beings MUST be epic. Period. That's always been the thing about them. I agree that level 40 is insane for Advanced beings to start - especially with a split between a spellcaster and a manifester. This is why I wrote the rules the way I did. I also had it so that each level of dragon or avangion would keep their spellcaster/manifester level rising (similar to how the cerebmancer PrC does), so they keep getting more powerful in spellcasting and manifesting powers. So my Dragons and Avagions are much more than what their original requirements were.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
But - the Epic rules are specifically for characters advancing past 20. Not just classes. So, any Character who is level 21, no matter how he came to that, is, by definition epic. It's a roleplaying issue if you are trying to say they cannot simply advance to level 21 without accomplishing something else besides XP. Period.
Hm, I think I was unclear on this point, so I apologize. I recognize that characters who are 21st level or above are epic. On the epic level threshold, here's a quote from page 5 of the EPH:
"But how can a character achieve 21st level? Some DM's might simply allow a character to reach 21st level by gaining the 210,000 XP necessary. However, this option may be too mundane for some players and DM's, who prefer the transition to epic gaming be accompanied by a suitable event such as a holy quest, series of tests, or similar great challenge."
I would certainly agree that Dark Sun definitely qualifies as a setting for epic level play. However, I do not think a 20th level Psion should just advance no problem to 21st when he accrues the experience. That is my personal preference as a game designer, so I wouldn't complain if someone else wanted things to be a smooth transition. However, any rules set must take both ideas into account.
That was all I wanted to point out, and it's not directly related to your Dragon rules, since they'll assume by hook or by crook the player got to the level they needed, which works fine.
I'm not gonna argue about this. I feel they should be much more powerful than presented in the 2e rules. The rules don't make the setting, the setting defines the rules. Simple as that.
It's true that the setting makes the rules. Of course, there are a number of interpretations even in Dark Sun itself. In the Prism Pentad they refer to psionics as "the Way", but almost everyone else calls them "Psionics." (I prefer "the Way".) Lynn Abbey had a completely different interpretation of Hamanu and the history of the Champions, some of which I liked, and other parts I didn't. (Generally I take what I like and consider the rest apocryphal.) So if you want to think that the Mind Lords are much stronger than the 2nd edition rules presented, no problem with me.
First, they are actually all about 6,000 years old (if I recall). Most of them have only been dragons for about 2,000. They might not have been doing much against each other directly, except for, once again Hamanu. Hamanu is responsible for the death of Sielba - a Sorcerer-Queen. He also had killed Dregoth, and had a hand in the slaughter of Kalid-Ma. This is a guy who has time & again attacked and killed Champion or mortal alike. sure, he probably doesn't get much for XP from charging into battle, however there's gotta be the occasional person who at least gives him *some* XP. I mean just because you are level 21+ doesn't mean you stop getting XP from CR 20 or lower. And yes, I think that time definitely DOES represent a lot. These individuals had to establish their cities, and ensure their domains. They frequently deal with all kinds of uprisings, while generally consindering them nuisences. You can't think that they have been sitting on their preverbial THUMBS for 2,000 years. I'm sorry, it makes no sense to think that to me.
No, I didn't say they were sitting on their thumbs. I meant that they are not out adventuring to gain experience, which is the way to advance in D&D. Because they're not players. That doesn't mean they don't advance, just that they advance really slowly.
Plus, setting-wise, the sorcerer-kings really don't have a lot to challenge them. They'd already perfected most of their fighting abilities, so they really haven't had to practice except to keep at the same level. Arcane and psionic research would certainly be useful, especially considering the losses incurred during the wars, so I'd argue that it's more likely the sorcerer-kings of today are stronger psions/wizards than they were 2,000 years prior. (A good explanation for why Nibenay is slightly more advanced than Hamanu, which otherwise seems rather odd.)
By the rules, when your level is 8 or more above the CR of the creature, you gain NO experience from fighting it. (Ad-hoc rewards are possible, but highly subjective.) So eventually the sorcerer-kings would gain nothing from fighting anything that isn't another epic creature. While they certainly would come around now and again in the 2,000 years since the end of the Cleansing wars, it's not enough, by the numbers, to advance levels in leaps and bounds.
And yet they are part of the game world. Just because they are NPC's doesn't mean they are simply props on a stage. I play my games as if it is a real, viable full world with living people in it, not statues.
Hey, I want to see complete biographic write-ups on every champion myself! That is, assuming I feel the source is legitimate. The background of Athas is absolutely rich with detail, in comparison with other D&D campaign settings.
But there's always the danger, especially with out-of-print materials, of falling into the trap of being more in love with the setting than the gaming. I've met many OOP DM's who simply sit back and create rules, backgrounds, and world details and never actually run games or play. They almost seem to resent the fact that players are screwing around in their "perfect" setting. Heh, kind of like a sorcerer-king in his domain, really.
But Advanced beings MUST be epic. Period. That's always been the thing about them. I agree that level 40 is insane for Advanced beings to start - especially with a split between a spellcaster and a manifester. This is why I wrote the rules the way I did. I also had it so that each level of dragon or avangion would keep their spellcaster/manifester level rising (similar to how the cerebmancer PrC does), so they keep getting more powerful in spellcasting and manifesting powers. So my Dragons and Avagions are much more than what their original requirements were.
Yes, advanced beings should be epic. I just think allowing epic levels to climb too high is not cool. The old rules put them in the 21-30 range, which is acceptable. I think it's better to aim low than high, because if you make the sorcerer-kings too powerful, than there's no point in playing any version of Dark Sun EXCEPT Epic.
To use a direct rules/story analogy: If Hamanu was a 40-50th level character, Rikus would have stood absolutely no chance to even get close in combat to drive the dagger into his back. The attack of opportunity Hamanu had would have killed him in a single blow. By the way the text reads, I think he sort of hit him anyway, just rolled low on damage.
Dark Sun was one of the first campaign settings to really embrace the idea of epic-level campaigns. (Well, except for the Realms, but you had to be Mystra's plaything to qualify. Or insane, apparently.) So it's definitely a part of the genre, and should be supported.
Out of curiosity, how do you rank Raajat? Is he a 1) Really high level epic sorcerer, or 2) A quasi-power, or 3) Something else?
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
It's true that the setting makes the rules. Of course, there are a number of interpretations even in Dark Sun itself. In the Prism Pentad they refer to psionics as "the Way", but almost everyone else calls them "Psionics." (I prefer "the Way".) Lynn Abbey had a completely different interpretation of Hamanu and the history of the Champions, some of which I liked, and other parts I didn't. (Generally I take what I like and consider the rest apocryphal.) So if you want to think that the Mind Lords are much stronger than the 2nd edition rules presented, no problem with me.
Abbey has the Way but also the netherworld. Its like the mindscape, but its not something ordinary people see (like mindscapes), only those sensible enough, like Hamanu. Abbey indicates that the netherworld is the Gray.
In 3E, aren't psionics linked to the astral (ectoplasm and all)?
A parallel there, even if unplanned.
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Out of curiosity, how do you rank Raajat? Is he a 1) Really high level epic sorcerer, or 2) A quasi-power, or 3) Something else?
He's definately going to have some divine ranks in my campaigns and have the power equal to that of a demi-god.
Originally posted by Pennarin
[b]Abbey has the Way but also the netherworld. Its like the mindscape, but its not something ordinary people see (like mindscapes), only those sensible enough, like Hamanu. Abbey indicates that the netherworld is the Gray.In 3E, aren't psionics linked to the astral (ectoplasm and all)? A parallel there, even if unplanned.
Well, the old D&D planeology had the Aristotle split of the universe into the physical and the mental. The Prime Material Plane, the Ethereal, the Energy planes, and the Elemental planes were all the physical aspects of reality. The astral and the outer planes are the mental aspects of reality. Which is why in Planescape people's beliefs and thoughts could physically alter the nature of the planes, given time and numbers.
The ethereal and the astral serve as a "medium of travel" between the normal realm of the Prime Material and the "pillars" that support it, the inner and outer planes.
Dark Sun takes a different approach. The Gray serves as both an ethereal and an astral plane at the same time, as well as the source of life and death upon Athas. The spirits of the living form in the Gray and return to it in a cycle. The Black, conversely, is similar to the plane of Shadows, but not quite. (David Noonan's explanations in Dungeon #110 were aimed at providing an easier split than representing the original ideas.)
In a world with psionics like Athas, a plane that encompasses the mental, physical, and spiritual aspects of life makes perfect sense. In some ways, it's better than the plain old astral by itself, which is thought alone. At any rate, planar orientations are always open to interpretation and should be addressed by each DM as he sees fit. "Preservers and Defilers" is an excellent sourcebook that gives detailed descriptions of Athasian planeology.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Hm, I think I was unclear on this point, so I apologize. I recognize that characters who are 21st level or above are epic. On the epic level threshold, here's a quote from page 5 of the EPH:
"But how can a character achieve 21st level? Some DM's might simply allow a character to reach 21st level by gaining the 210,000 XP necessary. However, this option may be too mundane for some players and DM's, who prefer the transition to epic gaming be accompanied by a suitable event such as a holy quest, series of tests, or similar great challenge."
I would certainly agree that Dark Sun definitely qualifies as a setting for epic level play. However, I do not think a 20th level Psion should just advance no problem to 21st when he accrues the experience. That is my personal preference as a game designer, so I wouldn't complain if someone else wanted things to be a smooth transition. However, any rules set must take both ideas into account.
That was all I wanted to point out, and it's not directly related to your Dragon rules, since they'll assume by hook or by crook the player got to the level they needed, which works fine.
Which, as I said, is handled through roleplaying, not specific game mechanics. My purpose was to design something that could be implemented in a wide range of different Dark Sun DM's games - not just something I could use for my own - because I don't use hit points, AC, and the like. I have vitality/wound points and defense bonuses, with the armor AC's being a damage reduction. Basically it's things from the Star Wars RPG that I liked, and IMHO fits for Dark Sun, and makes it a little more lethal. I also have been using a 3d6 system rather than d20, and variable modifiers. I don't expect others to do this. The rules I presented was for a much wider group than just my own personal gaming group, so I tried to keep closer to the d20 mechanics for 3.5e than I'd normally work with.
Personally, I don't see epic levels being all that much grander than non-epic levels. Actually, in many ways, they don't progress nearly as fast in epic levels (with saves & attack bonuses) as they did before, taking basically the slowest progression, while monsters seem to ignore that rule and become much more powerful than a PC, with a ever widening gap between the two. I also see them as being basically infinite in number - people can advance as far as they want within my campaigns. I also do use levels to help represent an amount of time. And I hold my NPC's to a similar advancement schedule as the PC's in my campaigns, representing that they aren't just there waiting around for the PC group to encounter them, but are actually actively persuing their own goals in life. I've had a NPC in one campaign who kept tormenting the group off and on, usually only if their paths crossed, who they first encountered at level 5, but didn't finally kill until level 29. And he was only a level above them the whole time. Then again, I also run my games usually by the seat of my pants - and work the story on the fly while the campaign is running, rather than plotting out a specific course the PC's must go. Which is why I have never been willing or even remotely interested in using a pre-canned adventure. I used one once (which was actually from the athas.org website) and tossed it aside after about 3 sessions, because we'd already gone off of that track into something else.
It's true that the setting makes the rules. Of course, there are a number of interpretations even in Dark Sun itself. In the Prism Pentad they refer to psionics as "the Way", but almost everyone else calls them "Psionics." (I prefer "the Way".) Lynn Abbey had a completely different interpretation of Hamanu and the history of the Champions, some of which I liked, and other parts I didn't. (Generally I take what I like and consider the rest apocryphal.) So if you want to think that the Mind Lords are much stronger than the 2nd edition rules presented, no problem with me.
Actually, "The Way" has been used almost universally in Dark Sun products. But "The Way" is Psionics, and in Dark Sun the terms are pretty much interchangeable. And yes, there are many Inconsistancies for Dark Sun - just look on these forums for the "Inconsistancy" threads to get an idea as to many of the ones heavily debated. I too like much of Rise & Fall's ideas - and had integrated many of them into my own write-ups, blending it with other sources.
No, I didn't say they were sitting on their thumbs. I meant that they are not out adventuring to gain experience, which is the way to advance in D&D. Because they're not players. That doesn't mean they don't advance, just that they advance really slowly.
I've never agreed with this. Why wouldn't a NPC be out adventuring and getting XP for things? Besides those who have very limiting and specific jobs they must do. Who says that in 2,000 years, the Sorcerer-Kings haven't done anything of note? Everything seems to support the opposite. And why should a NPC, by virtue of being an NPC, not be able to advance and develop at a faster rate? I mean, all of the surviving Dragon Kings except for Dregoth are level 24 or lower if I recall. So, we're basically saying that Hamanu, the great and mighty Lion of Urik, has only gained a whopping 3 whole levels in 2,000 years, with the amount of activity he alone has done, with the killing of 2 Sorcerer-Kings, and assistance in killing of another one, as well as all of the other wars he's led. You're telling me that he's gone up against opponents who haven't been higher than level 12 - 15, because otherwise he'd have gotten XP from it, and thus, with his warlike qualities, would have advanced much faster than he did? I keep going back to him, because Hamanu, even ignoring Rise & Fall, has been a very active Sorcerer-King throughout the Dark Sun timeline during the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings, period. and he's only supposed to be a level 23 Dragon. which would be, in 2e terms, a 20 Defiler/20 Psionicist/3 Dragon, converted to 3rd Edition, about level 27 over all, with the last 3 levels of dragon coming to about 1 level total when it's converted from 2e -> 3e. So, in 2,000 years, he didn't make enough XP, with ALL of his battles, didn't encounter people at least level 19 (with the converted stats) to make 53,000 XP (enough for him to reach level 28, from level 26). at that level, you're telling me that he was sitting on his proverbial thumbs. Or he's simply a statue, a prop to be used by a DM, and shouldn't be given any life of his own except for when PC's encounter him. This is just silly to me.
Plus, setting-wise, the sorcerer-kings really don't have a lot to challenge them. They'd already perfected most of their fighting abilities, so they really haven't had to practice except to keep at the same level. Arcane and psionic research would certainly be useful, especially considering the losses incurred during the wars, so I'd argue that it's more likely the sorcerer-kings of today are stronger psions/wizards than they were 2,000 years prior. (A good explanation for why Nibenay is slightly more advanced than Hamanu, which otherwise seems rather odd.)
Naa, Nibenay should very well be more advanced than Hamanu. and my write-up explains how. Hamanu (and only Hamanu), in my design, must automaically take a level of Dragon for every 5 levels he develops. this is the curse Rajaat gave him, a sort of "trump card". Hamanu knows this, and does what he can to slow the process within him, and has been developing in other areas that don't use magic. Nibenay didn't have the same compunction, except he discovered the time he believe is when he'd go mad, and has been too scared to take the plunge into animalistic rampage, so he's been also working on other areas of development, but was further than Hamanu has been. Plus, there's the epic spells to consider (which, by my ruiles, Hamanu doesn't ever need to actually cast, they automaticaly get triggered at the correct points during the process thanks to Rajaat's meddling).
By the rules, when your level is 8 or more above the CR of the creature, you gain NO experience from fighting it. (Ad-hoc rewards are possible, but highly subjective.) So eventually the sorcerer-kings would gain nothing from fighting anything that isn't another epic creature. While they certainly would come around now and again in the 2,000 years since the end of the Cleansing wars, it's not enough, by the numbers, to advance levels in leaps and bounds.
Except that actually they could, by the normal dragon rules, as well as the official conversion rules, be able to get XP from a range of level 18 - 20, depending on the level of the Dragon in question.
Hey, I want to see complete biographic write-ups on every champion myself! That is, assuming I feel the source is legitimate. The background of Athas is absolutely rich with detail, in comparison with other D&D campaign settings.
Well, it will probably eventually be done. My write-up is actually my own attempt to help define them in the mechanics - and not just the Sorcerer-Kings, but also just basic Dragons and Avangions without being SK's or Champions of Rajaat.
But there's always the danger, especially with out-of-print materials, of falling into the trap of being more in love with the setting than the gaming. I've met many OOP DM's who simply sit back and create rules, backgrounds, and world details and never actually run games or play. They almost seem to resent the fact that players are screwing around in their "perfect" setting. Heh, kind of like a sorcerer-king in his domain, really.
Well, you'll be glad to know I'm definitely not one of those. I regularly run games. Heck, I've found out tht there's a HUGE Dark Sun gaming community in this tow I've just moved back to. I also am a prospective game designer, and have my own homebrew campaign setting/worlds that I've been working on since I was in high school, that are very, very detailed, and I love running people through parts (the parts that are more or less completed). I probably have more material on each one of my four worlds in my campaign setting than there is written material for all of Dark Sun. Of course, it's not a d20 gamesystem, and I've been converting it to such, as well as cleaning it up to make it look better. I do plan on eventually doing at least a web publication of my setting so others could play in it if they desired.
Yes, advanced beings should be epic. I just think allowing epic levels to climb too high is not cool. The old rules put them in the 21-30 range, which is acceptable. I think it's better to aim low than high, because if you make the sorcerer-kings too powerful, than there's no point in playing any version of Dark Sun EXCEPT Epic.
I personally think that if you are going to go against the Dragon Kings, you'd better damned be at least Epic level, if not something else as well. Or else you'd just die. The point of Dark Sun is not to leap into direct confrontations against a Dragon King - that's suicide. they should be so powerful as to scare players - a LOT. something that may be the same level as what a Deity is, without being a deity. And most of those are level 40 with 20 HD's of outsider, for a total number of hit dice being 60. I think that fully-developed dragons and avangions should be near that number of HD's - something to make one stop and think "wow, they could challenge a god", even though there are no gods on Athas, and they don't have any Divine Ranks.
To use a direct rules/story analogy: If Hamanu was a 40-50th level character, Rikus would have stood absolutely no chance to even get close in combat to drive the dagger into his back. The attack of opportunity Hamanu had would have killed him in a single blow. By the way the text reads, I think he sort of hit him anyway, just rolled low on damage.
Well, first, Hamanu is rather distracted - I have considered giving the SK's a penalty to their initiative and ability to focus based on the fact that subconsciously they are constantly answering their Templars' requests for spell energy. Hamanu was also toying with him, and wasn't out-and-out trying to completely slaughter rikus, so when Hamanu got the AoO, he probably didn't put everything into the hit, and held back. That's well within the rules.
Dark Sun was one of the first campaign settings to really embrace the idea of epic-level campaigns. (Well, except for the Realms, but you had to be Mystra's plaything to qualify. Or insane, apparently.) So it's definitely a part of the genre, and should be supported.
Out of curiosity, how do you rank Raajat? Is he a 1) Really high level epic sorcerer, or 2) A quasi-power, or 3) Something else?
Adamantyr
I think I'd rate him as having achieved some sort of Divine Rank - after his meddling in the elemental planes. We know he's already got power over the paraelement pf Rain (with the Cerulean Storm), which could also be construed as him having direct control over water and air. He might have spent the last couple millenia solving the riddle of the elemental vortices that his students had accidentally encountered, and found a way to become one with the divine energy from the elemental planes, infusing himself with them, and becoming a god. I'd say he has a Divine Rank, however he hasn't learned *everything* there is to know about being a god yet. and as a god, it's well within his power to be able to jjust kill off the most powerful beings on Athas (besides himself, that is) with but a word or thought. He's also somewhere in the area code of level 100 or so in my books. He has the power of a druid (from his Pyreen heritage), of a wizard - both defiling and preserving, being able to cast any spell or use any arcane magical effect as a free action, and is a very powerful psionic character as well. He himself is proof against arcane magic, and it cannot be used against him directly. He's also quite mad.
1. Make a sinlge 10-level 'transformation' prestige class to cover the change to Dragonhood / Avignon.
2. Make a series of other epic prestiage classes... examples:
Champions of Raajaat
Archmage
Mystical Ruler (think Oba)
stuff like that.
Make the entry requirements easier, say 27th level, the single 10-level class turns them into a dragon, then they choose other classes to go from there.
See. i've been thinking....
Hammanu: probably has his own epic prestiage class "Wizard General" or something like that
Nibenay: Archmage / Mystic / Shadow Mage (epic?)
Daskinor: Some weird mega-psion.... instead of animalistic stages, he gets paranoid stages
Boris: Tough one to call
Oba / Tec: Mystic Ruler (religious trappings etc)
These classes could give various specalized skill sub-sets i.e military tatics (Hammanu) Anchient Lore (Nibenay) etc.
Basically, what i'm suggesting is that we look at the dragon / avignon transformation process as a single 10-level prestige class, that open up a plelthora of other options, thus allowing personalisation of the said epic characters.
That way you get a good way to explain level advancement over thousands of years, a way to personalise the SK's to thier representations in various source material, ability to fast-track advancement, a chance to write nifty prestiage classes... while the 'old school' people such as myself get a single 10 level class, keeps with the original flavour, allows us to fast-track character transformation (at the expense of power)....
Win win?
think about it: this way a character could rush to up to say, 27th level, and become a full-blow dragon (37 levels) but still be no match for a SK, who have say, 27 levels, 3-5 levels of dragon, + 5-8 levels of say, "Mystic rule" +3-5 levels Arch Mage +3-5 level epic psion....
makes for an interesting concept....
Where can I get a copy of what you've done for the Dragon/Avangion thus far??
Is there a link you could direct me to or could you email it to me?
My email address is slingbld @ comcast net.
Thanks a bunch!!
Slingbld~
P.S.: And, No i have not gotten a copy from ya yet
Originally posted by Jaanos
I'd like to suggest a compromise Xlor;
1. Make a sinlge 10-level 'transformation' prestige class to cover the change to Dragonhood / Avignon.
I'm sorry, but the very reason I did what I did was to make it longer. Why would I change the cornerstone foundation of my train of thought on this? so far, there's been no evidence to support me going back to a 10-level PrC, other than the 2e rules said that it was a 10-level class. And I'm primarily using the flavor of the setting guide my hand on this, not strict aherence to 2e rules. The flavor suggests a very long process, not something just anyone can complete. A process that would make people attempt to hunt for shortcuts, as is pointed out repeatedly in the setting.
2. Make a series of other epic prestiage classes... examples:
Champions of Raajaat
Archmage
Mystical Ruler (think Oba)
stuff like that.
Champion of Rajaat and Sorcerer-Monarch, by virtue of how they are explained in the timelines and the setting materials, should be templates, not PrC's. Simple as that. They are one-time single-shot effects that changed the character, not something built up over time.
Make the entry requirements easier, say 27th level, the single 10-level class turns them into a dragon, then they choose other classes to go from there.
But my requirements *are* far easier than the 2e rules dictate. However, they take longer to develop. This was the fundamentals I was working from, based on ever textual reference describing the sorcerer-kings, their lifespans, and the duration which they had been undergoing the process, as well as how long it took them to get there, and the amount of devotion and focus on achieving the metamorphosis that several of them have been shown to have done. Like Oronis. Oronis has been, probably the single busiest Sorcerer-King seen. He had spent a millenium redeeming himself and developing the Avangion spell, then another millenium just to get barely started in the process (I believe he's level 22, if I recall).
See. i've been thinking....
Hammanu: probably has his own epic prestiage class "Wizard General" or something like that
And he still could, but it would be independent of the dragon metamorphosis.
Nibenay: Archmage / Mystic / Shadow Mage (epic?)
Same as Hamanu, and I'd agree here.
Daskinor: Some weird mega-psion.... instead of animalistic stages, he gets paranoid stages
I think he's not a Psion, but a Wilder. with the intense emotional strain, it could be that the impulsiveness and emptional power of a wilder, when undergoing the dragon metamorphosis, makes them go crazy.
Boris: Tough one to call
Psychic Warrior all the way. very martial in his actions - with only Hamanu possibly more martial.
Oba / Tec: Mystic Ruler (religious trappings etc)
Interesting idea, but would beed to have the PrC developed.
These classes could give various specalized skill sub-sets i.e military tatics (Hammanu) Anchient Lore (Nibenay) etc.
Except that restricted skills are technically against the 3.5 rules (I know, hey seem to have done it with the XPH). And the idea of other Epic PrC's they are taking would be cool. After all - they are very much aware that there is a animalistic stage, even if, short of Nibenay, they aren't really all that certian as to when it happens (hense they killed Dregoth after he had pretty much completed the stage that had the rampage, rather than before).
Basically, what i'm suggesting is that we look at the dragon / avignon transformation process as a single 10-level prestige class, that open up a plelthora of other options, thus allowing personalisation of the said epic characters.
But - the Dragon Disciple PrC is also a 10-level transformational prestige class, and it only ends up with a half-dragon as a result. We're talking about a bad-ass arcane/psionic character transforming into an epic-scale, overly-powerful dragon with phenominal powers. The scale of the differences between the two is astounding. Even if you say it's an epic PrC and thus could represent more...... 10 levels just doesn't seem to be enough to represent this transformation.
That way you get a good way to explain level advancement over thousands of years, a way to personalise the SK's to thier representations in various source material, ability to fast-track advancement, a chance to write nifty prestiage classes... while the 'old school' people such as myself get a single 10 level class, keeps with the original flavour, allows us to fast-track character transformation (at the expense of power)....
I like everything except the 10-level PrC idea. I'm sorry, but it's something I'm gonna stick to. The four 10-level PrC's are more like Template classes - in that they slowly advance the character over a period of time with the effects of the spell that is cast. the initial Template applied at each stage represents the initial, immediate changes.
Win win?
Sorry, I don't see it as such. I see it as chucking my Dragon idea, going back to the inadiquite dragon/avangion development process from 2e, and completely disregarding my designs. exactly how could I possibly percieve that as a "win-win"?
think about it: this way a character could rush to up to say, 27th level, and become a full-blow dragon (37 levels) but still be no match for a SK, who have say, 27 levels, 3-5 levels of dragon, + 5-8 levels of say, "Mystic rule" +3-5 levels Arch Mage +3-5 level epic psion....
But he could very well be. After all - the fully-developed dragon is supposed to be able to do things that any partially-developed ones can't do. Which is the motivation that Kalak and Kalid-Ma had to finish the process - to be able to dominate over the other Sorcerer-Kings. Borys was undoubtedly the most powerful of the rebel Champions after he became the Dragon - they needed him to become a full dragon just in order to keep Rajaat imprisioned - implying that they couldn't do that on their own. so a character who rushes to level 27, and then takes 10 levels and becomes a full-on dragon at level 37, should by all means be able to lay down some serious whoop-ass on the other Sorcerer-Kings. Otherwise - what's the point of becoming a Dragon?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Help me jog my memory, did I e-mail you a copy or not?
And, Athas.org is currently reviewing my rules. I really do need to sit down and formulate the "Avangion Magic" rules, to get everything more completed - as well as begin my massive overhaul to sort of "clean up" the metamorphosis (well, it may not be that massive) - I have a tendancy of making my projects simpler and make more sense over time... When I get the chance to do it.
Nope, you have never sent me a copy.
You asked me that last time I requested a copy.
could you shoot me over a copy??
Originally posted by slingbld
xlore,
Where can I get a copy of what you've done for the Dragon/Avangion thus far??
Is there a link you could direct me to or could you email it to me?
My email address is slingbld @ comcast net.
Thanks a bunch!!
Slingbld~
P.S.: And, No i have not gotten a copy from ya yet
I'll try to remember to send it to you today when I check my e-mail.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'll try to remember to send it to you today when I check my e-mail.
YES!!!!!
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'll try to remember to send it to you today when I check my e-mail.
May I have a copy of it too??? May I?? Please, please, please???:D
Would you like me to PM (pester by mail) you??
send it to << mentor[at]darksun.com.br >>
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
done and done.
Thanx!!!:D
I'll start twisting it right now (just kidding)... ;)
A big hail to Xlorep (the author) and pennarin (who had the presence of mind to save it in a *.doc file)
A cute smile for you both!
Point about the dragon disciple well taken, but it's not exactly an epic Prestiage class - at least it's not listed in the epic handbook - so i'm not sure if comparing a full-blown dragon metamorphis epic prestige class to a 10-level non epic class is exactly... a fair comparison.
So, i'll re-iterate again, then suggest another two compromises:
1. Make it a single 10-level, EPIC prestige class, where they gains spell / manifester levles as they go, then have sperate prestige classes for which a qualiying requirement is to be a dragon fully transformed or otherwise.
Again, that way you CAN stretch out thier transformation process - i envisage that becoming a dragon, partiucally in one move like Kalak (attempted) or like Borys (forced / artifact) is actually a minor process in the overal transformation to an epic being of power.
Look a Nibenay - undoubtably, from flavour text and stats from canon books, one of the most powerful SK's around, but you get the feeling he is a little more *magical* than the rest... so part of his transformation process could have been taking 10 additional levels of.... Arcane Researcher... or Epic Shadow Mage... so that's why he's where he is now.
Now my other two suggestions -
2. Condense it into two 10-level classes. 1 low-level, with some animalistic stuff towards the end, the second encompasses the rest.
3. Have a single10-level epic prestige class, but at some triggers such as... you automatically go up a level in the transformation when you acquire X additional levels, regardless of what they are in - maybe a forced trade-off system like fallen paladins? concept is; they advance... but then it quickens the transformation... yeah i know it kinda smacks in the face of the stuff i suggested about nibenay, but it's an idea.
To be blunt, i think your current system misses the point, and i know i'm not alone if thinking that BUT you have gone to tremendous effort, and it has some really, really good stuff in it.... BUT i would like to think that you are amendable to suggestions. I know you see 4x10 as "core" to your concept, the way i see "1x10" as "core" to true DS, but i'm willing to meet half-way, as i've shown.
I think it would be good if you, and Athas.org as a whole, took into account, the views i, and others in this community, hold about the 10-level class. Even if you WANT to have more than one 10-level class, that's fine, but how about taking on board some of the suggestions about about unique epic prestige classes (with being a dragon as a requirement), or having 2x10.
over to you mate....
I do the 50 levels becuase I don't want players becoming advanced beings. As all advanced beings know of the existance of all other advanced beings, any player who tried would be stomped by the SKs anyway. I like to keep the SKs behind the scenes, rather like gods. I don't want them to be viable targets, or active participants in my campaign. Of course, if the players could actually challenge an SK legitimately, I wouldn't stop them. I just don't think that the SKs would allow any change to the status quo. That is the main reason for my prism pentad bashing. The Sks would realistically band together against a threat to their rule.
I see them rather like feuding family members, they hate each other, but they will defend their own against outsiders.
That is why any suggestion of Oronis moving against the SKs is ridiculous, they would annihilate him utterly. Especially so in that dragons are simply more destructive in combat. Avangions work better with others, and inspire truer loyalty.
Nicely done. I can tell you realy put thought into your work.
Also:
I sent you a PDF copy that I threw together.
I noticed several mistakes made (by me) when I converted it. Would you mind if I posted a corrected PDF file to the list here?
I'll look into cleaning it up & slimming it down so it should only be about 350kb or so (about 1/3 of a meg).
Let me know!
Slingbld~
Originally posted by Jaanos
The art of compromise is giving a little, taking a little. I'm gald you liked some of my idea's Xlor.
Point about the dragon disciple well taken, but it's not exactly an epic Prestiage class - at least it's not listed in the epic handbook - so i'm not sure if comparing a full-blown dragon metamorphis epic prestige class to a 10-level non epic class is exactly... a fair comparison.
Well, even if you look at the epic prestige classes presented in the ELH, they seem....limiting. Not nearly enough to qualify in my book for the process of transforming into a dragon. Please, understand, I didn'yt believe that the 10-level advanced being class in the 2e materials was enough. It seemed like a rushed-job to me, and not nearly enough to encompass the epic feel of the metamorphosis. I'm not going to budge on this one, as the entire reason I started my own conversion of the process was to make it be more epic and less like a rushed job, within the rules of 3e (and later 3.5e).
So, i'll re-iterate again, then suggest another two compromises:
1. Make it a single 10-level, EPIC prestige class, where they gains spell / manifester levles as they go, then have sperate prestige classes for which a qualiying requirement is to be a dragon fully transformed or otherwise.
Sorry, once again, this doesn't seem enough. It just doesn't for me. You'll have to do a lot of solid explaining to sway me in the slightest to be even remotely interested in this.
Again, that way you CAN stretch out thier transformation process - i envisage that becoming a dragon, partiucally in one move like Kalak (attempted) or like Borys (forced / artifact) is actually a minor process in the overal transformation to an epic being of power.
I've covered how they can accelerate the process in my system. For Dragons only. It's all right there, listed as an optional rule.
Look a Nibenay - undoubtably, from flavour text and stats from canon books, one of the most powerful SK's around, but you get the feeling he is a little more *magical* than the rest... so part of his transformation process could have been taking 10 additional levels of.... Arcane Researcher... or Epic Shadow Mage... so that's why he's where he is now.
Actually, I've always felt he was more of a sham - that he was lying about his ability, and the other Sorcerer-Kings knew it. In relations to power, of the surviving Sorcerer-Monarhs, he's actually, I'd say, about mid-range. I see it as Dregoth by far at the top, with Hamanu, purely because of his unique qualities that makes him damned near impossible to kill and his martial prowess, then a sort of tie between Lalai-Puy and Nibenay - they are really close, and always are picking on each other, even if I totally believe their little "war" is nothing but a sham to keep their respective peoples in line. then Oronis, and finally Daskinor - I don't think Daskinor is all *that* powerful, he's just so chaotic in his moods that it's impossible to predict what he does, and thus makes him dangerous. Oronis is so low, because he's got about a thousand years which he lost on development due to working on redemption and starting the Avangion process.
Now my other two suggestions -
2. Condense it into two 10-level classes. 1 low-level, with some animalistic stuff towards the end, the second encompasses the rest.
But the designs fit so well within 3 10-level classes, 4 templates, and 4 spells. I modeled that from the way the progressions were broken up from the way the metamorphosis is generalized and grouped from the 2e version.
3. Have a single10-level epic prestige class, but at some triggers such as... you automatically go up a level in the transformation when you acquire X additional levels, regardless of what they are in - maybe a forced trade-off system like fallen paladins? concept is; they advance... but then it quickens the transformation... yeah i know it kinda smacks in the face of the stuff i suggested about nibenay, but it's an idea.
Only Hamanu, the way I see it, should automatically advance. But that's my own view, and I've explained it a few times on this forum. The others don't automatically advance. And once again, 10-levels just doesn't feel right. I'm sorry, but you've gotta have some damned convincing arguements for me to see the validity of this.
To be blunt, i think your current system misses the point, and i know i'm not alone if thinking that BUT you have gone to tremendous effort, and it has some really, really good stuff in it.... BUT i would like to think that you are amendable to suggestions. I know you see 4x10 as "core" to your concept, the way i see "1x10" as "core" to true DS, but i'm willing to meet half-way, as i've shown.
Once again, it is not 40 levels. It isn't a, as you put it, 4x10 system. It is 4 epic spells (which aren't levels!), 4 templates (which once again, are not levels, and 3, that's right 3 10-level prestige classes (which comes to 30 levels). If you want to look at it another way, look up the ideas for template classes. Basically the prestige classes are similar to a template class. I do include methods for Dragons to skip the levels, and thus accelerate through the process faster - as I feel Kalid-Ma, Borys and Kalak did. They sacrifice some of the metamorphosis process for quicker power (access to higher levels of Dragon Magic). I have always felt that the 10-level progression in 2e for Advanced Beings was inadiquite. Back when I first bought my copy of Dragon Kings when it came out from TSR. I felt that is....well....was kinda anti-climatic. It has never sat well with me, and seems like something that was developed in the heat of a rush to meet a deadline, not something that was reviewed with any sort of focus or in-depth study or attempt to make a decent process. It was slapped together, and released to meet the deadline that TSR had set. Now, with 3e and 3.5e rules, I felt it would be a ripe time to fix this error I had seen from 2e.
My system does allow, for the Dragon who wishes to hurry through the process, to develop means to reach the metamorphosis end in 10 levels, or even less. It takes a LOT more energy from them to cast the spells, but it's all very entirely possible to do so. Which is what was done for Borys to make him a full-on dragon, or when Kalid-Ma got screwed by the Dark Powers of Ravenloft and was effectively used as a pawn to capture his high templar, and then again, when Kalak attempted to slaughter the entire population of the city of Tyr to fuel his metamorphosis. It takes great, and generally uite lethal power to do this. However, it's possible. I fully believe that the Dark Lens can focus the energy necessary to accelerate the process without needing any other energy than that from the sun.
I think it would be good if you, and Athas.org as a whole, took into account, the views i, and others in this community, hold about the 10-level class. Even if you WANT to have more than one 10-level class, that's fine, but how about taking on board some of the suggestions about about unique epic prestige classes (with being a dragon as a requirement), or having 2x10.
over to you mate....
Ok. Please, tell me what is the reason you really despise the length of my process? I mean, honestly - do you plan on having characters in your campaigns reach full dragon metamorphosis? Ifv so, what do the other Sorcerer-Kings do, and how effective do the greatest powers in the Tablelands look like if a player character can accomplish in a year or two, or even a couple centuries, what none of them could do in the last 2,000 years? The very beings who very nearly succeeded in annihilating every one of the races Rajaat tasked them to destroy, the best of Rajaat, the first sorcerer's students of defiling magic, who also combined psionic prowess into the mix? Wow, they could annihilate entire cultures, but they can't figure out how to develop in the Dragon process, much less control the rage inside them to keep from wiping out everything that's left? Boy, these great and powerful dunces should just hand over their crown and resign as sorcerer-Kings. After all, they are only NPC's, which means that since they don't have a player actively controlling them, they should be crippled in their ability to advance.
Why this strong desire to keep to a 10-level prestige class, when it seems so inadiquite? When such massive changes in power aren't even close to being reflected in such a prestige class, ever. We're not talking about them becoming some standard-level dragon. I make them into an epic, advanced dragon - something that would be able to kill great wyrms of any of the other Dragons in D&D. I make them into something that would be closer to the power that is shown to the Dragons that controlled & divided up Krynn in Dragonlance after the Chaos War. They are something to be feared. They are something that any player with a brain in their head would go "oh, damn" and not "I could kill that!". The Dragons should not be something players just habitually hunt and destroy. There are no knights off to kill dragons on this world - the Dragons would consume the knight before he even got within range to see his quarry.
I do see your arguement - but it sounds to me like the arguement of someone who's afraid of change. Even when the change is possibly a good one, and works very well for the system, you don't seem to want it. You fight against it as hard as you can, because it alters part of your perception of what Dark Sun is. After all, you can't be blamed for wanting the 2e gamesystem mechanics to define your campaign setting, and since the 10-level classes were already there, it would be a drop in the bucket to just use what's already existing, and no need to make ay innovative or radical changes. Don't rock the boat, right? Now, this isn't a flame, please don't take it as such - but that's what I see the arguement is over. I wanted to change something in the campaign setting, and you don't like the change. You want something that is less drastic a variation from the original write-ups, because you feel that maybe they are adaquite. You feel there's no reason for my massive rewrite of the design. Sure, you see some of the changes might be good, but not the sheer length of the process.
I understand this. Trust me, I do - however I've been mulling this over for such a long time, and have looked at it at all kinds of angles. I've discussed the ideas with fellow DM's and other gamesystem fanatics (the rules lawyers of games I've run). I've looked at it from the novels standpoint, as well as from the rules that existed in 2e - all of them, not merely those for Advanced Beings. I've even discussed various ideas with members of this very forum before I wrote my first draft of my changes - and got into rather heated arguements with many of them, in order to refine the process and provide different insights. On my own message forums, I had continued the discussions, and helped refine it a bit more. I've even slapped together characters using this system, without actually playtesting them, just to see what it all would look like. I've studied the 3e and 3.5e rules so much, that I almost don't need to look up something in the PHB or DMG any more, but still do - and I've applied many of the patterns I've found within 3e/3.5e that I felt applied to the advanced being changes that I could.
And yes, I understand that I'm so embroiled within my own write-up that it's difficult to step back and possibly see other options. Which is why I take breaks from it from time to time, to clear my head. I'm not completely ignoring your ideas - but a few of them had been reviewed, worked out, and rejected by me a long time ago. The only thing I haven't done is match up a Dragon against an Avangion, or other Epic character, and compared the results, to make for CR/LA adjustments as well as to make them balance out more.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
I do it as a direct conversion, hopefuls must be 20lvl wizard/ 20 lvl psionicists + 10 lvls of the avanced being prestige class. I don't count them as "creature-dragon/avangion"s because advanced beings aren't natural creatures, they are manifestations of defiling and preserving magic.
I do the 50 levels becuase I don't want players becoming advanced beings. As all advanced beings know of the existance of all other advanced beings, any player who tried would be stomped by the SKs anyway. I like to keep the SKs behind the scenes, rather like gods. I don't want them to be viable targets, or active participants in my campaign. Of course, if the players could actually challenge an SK legitimately, I wouldn't stop them. I just don't think that the SKs would allow any change to the status quo. That is the main reason for my prism pentad bashing. The Sks would realistically band together against a threat to their rule.
I see them rather like feuding family members, they hate each other, but they will defend their own against outsiders.
That is why any suggestion of Oronis moving against the SKs is ridiculous, they would annihilate him utterly. Especially so in that dragons are simply more destructive in combat. Avangions work better with others, and inspire truer loyalty.
Well, you are violating all kinds of 3e gamesystem mechanics nby doing it that way. However, while I don't mind players starting the process, I don't like the idea that they can complete it - not without some extraordinarily long campaign that spans years of play to achieve it. I want them to look at it, go "Wow, that's COOL!" but then "Oh my god, it would take FOREVER to complete it!" I am gonna fight tooth and nail about the lowered restrictions as much as my reasons for making it so much longer than the previous version. consider it a fair warning. You'll have to come up with a good, justifiable, solid reason to make me sway on those.
Originally posted by slingbld
Ok, first off:
Nicely done. I can tell you realy put thought into your work.
Also:
I sent you a PDF copy that I threw together.
I noticed several mistakes made (by me) when I converted it. Would you mind if I posted a corrected PDF file to the list here?
I'll look into cleaning it up & slimming it down so it should only be about 350kb or so (about 1/3 of a meg).
Let me know!
Slingbld~
Cool. I can make PDF's, but I didn't, becaus usually I make PDF's when I want to add in pictures and make a sort of "final" version. I did it once with some cpyrighted pictures from the 2e books, but this time, I'm hoping someone will whip up some of the transformational process pictures that I could then use in it, if not, oh well. .doc format works for me, for now, regardless of the fact that I detest Microsoft, and don't even *have* MS Word. My word processor does read it at least. I put it in web-format for my site, because I figured that would be the easiest way to pass the info onto the rest of the community. Pennarin just was smart enough to snag it for himself and put it in .doc files before my site went down.
I actually have quite a bit of experience in doing destop-publishing types of things, having arranged & generated my old unit's monthly newspaper when I was in the Army. didn't write the articles, just made everything *mesh*.
You write too much... :OMG! Gosh! I can't follow everything you write...
Originally posted by FabrÃcio Madruga Lopes
Xlorepdarkhelm,
You write too much... :OMG! Gosh! I can't follow everything you write...
:ROFL:
Sorry, I just kinda write in complete thoughts. it's not something I really pay much attention to, and n no way do I expect others to match the post length. I just like to try to make sure people actually understand my points, and try to circumvent any possible misinterpretations.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Cool. I can make PDF's, but I didn't, becaus usually I make PDF's when I want to add in pictures and make a sort of "final" version. I did it once with some cpyrighted pictures from the 2e books, but this time, I'm hoping someone will whip up some of the transformational process pictures that I could then use in it, if not, oh well. .doc format works for me, for now, regardless of the fact that I detest Microsoft, and don't even *have* MS Word. My word processor does read it at least. I put it in web-format for my site, because I figured that would be the easiest way to pass the info onto the rest of the community. Pennarin just was smart enough to snag it for himself and put it in .doc files before my site went down.
I actually have quite a bit of experience in doing destop-publishing types of things, having arranged & generated my old unit's monthly newspaper when I was in the Army. didn't write the articles, just made everything *mesh*.
BTW: Thanks for letting me post your work xlore!
Here's a Link to get a PDF copy of his Avangion/Dragon
Hope you all enjoy it!!Here it is!!
Slingbld~
Originally posted by slingbld
BTW: Thanks for letting me post your work xlore!
Here's a Link to get a PDF copy of his Avangion/Dragon
Hope you all enjoy it!!Here it is!!
Slingbld~
Slightly erroneous URL. too many h's in http. here's a better one:
Here it is!!
also - your bookmarks has the word "Dagon" instead of "Dragon" for one link, but other than that (and it's rather minor), nice job!
Originally posted by Jaanos
To be blunt, i think your current system misses the point, and i know i'm not alone if thinking that
You're not alone, but you are in the minority from what I can tell.
To be blunt myself, I think xlorep's idea hits right on. It probably needs a few small tweaks here and there, but that should be it.
I know athas.org is also taking a look at it and know from one of the guys on the epic bureau that there are some issues with his rules (not surprised since they like to stay strictly D&D with things), so I'm hoping they don't overhaul it too much cause I would like to use what they come out with, otherwise I will just be using xloep's as is.
I don't think a single or even two 10 level Epic PrCs cuts it at all though. Nor does a straight conversion. Take it from someone that has covnerted quite a few things from 2e to 3e and then again to 3.5e, sometimes things you loved in 2e are going to get lost in order to deal with the new mechanics, and I think this will be one of those instances on a major scale. One or two 10 level epic PrCs is not enough IMO, and a straight conversion is entirely way too harsh.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
You're not alone, but you are in the minority from what I can tell.
To be blunt myself, I think xlorep's idea hits right on. It probably needs a few small tweaks here and there, but that should be it.
I know athas.org is also taking a look at it and know from one of the guys on the epic bureau that there are some issues with his rules (not surprised since they like to stay strictly D&D with things), so I'm hoping they don't overhaul it too much cause I would like to use what they come out with, otherwise I will just be using xloep's as is.
I don't think a single or even two 10 level Epic PrCs cuts it at all though. Nor does a straight conversion. Take it from someone that has covnerted quite a few things from 2e to 3e and then again to 3.5e, sometimes things you loved in 2e are going to get lost in order to deal with the new mechanics, and I think this will be one of those instances on a major scale. One or two 10 level epic PrCs is not enough IMO, and a straight conversion is entirely way too harsh.
The only other possibility I see, using the rules, might be something that is a 10-stage, epic-spell-based metamorphosis that is independent of classes and levels. But I think that 10 epic spells and 10 templats for them, might be a bit much, and would be far more complicated than what I've done. Also, I am no big fan of the epic spellcasting rules, and that would be almost too reliant on a broken rule mechanic.
Now i want to know how you view on each Sorceror-King, like for Hamanu and his curse.
And a brief stats like: Hamanu psychicwarrior20/defiler18/dragon16 (just an exemple)
I'm just curious. :P
If you have all written down, you can email me at:
al_lajeunesse_qc @ Hotmail dot com
Excellent work and very good explanations on this thread. Keep up the good work.
I see Dregoth as a wizard(defiler)/psion(egoist?) or possibly erudite/metamind/archmage/archdefiler/dragon combo. I see him as really a research-oriented one, focused on many things, and possibly the inventor of the Dragon process.
I see Lalai-Puy as some wizard(defiler)/Psion(telepath?)/Dragon combo, not certian how it all works together with her yet tho.
Nibenay I see as a Wizard(defiler)/Psion(telepath)/Shadow Mage(uses the black for power)/Dragon, but I also don't have him really mapped out.
And for Daskinor, I see him as a Wizard(defiler)/Wilder/Dragon combo - the wilder class seems to have almost been written specifically for this deranged, emotionally-charged psycho.
For Oronis, I see a Wizard(preserver)/Psion(kineticist?)/Avangion process going on there. I'll need to dig through material and see what I can get for him.
the other Champions -
Borys is a Psychoic Warrior/Wizard(defiler)/Dragon progression. He's too martially-oriented, and I feel that he was given the Scourge to augment this ability.
Myron also is a Psychic Warrior/Wizard(defiler) progression, without the Dragon. Once again, the sword gifted from Rajaat tips me that direction.
Kalak, Andropinis, Sielba, and the others, I see as a Wizard(defiler)/Psion(???)/Dragon. I haven't given them much thought beyond that.
I've jugggled it around, but haven't come up with definitive answers quite yet. I keep weighting the different things and tring to make the best of the classes, based on what's known about them.
Originally posted by WilliamPall
xlorepdarkhelm, quick question fro ya. I was looking over the pdf ofyour av/darg progression and I am curiosu if you had access to the Books of ED/VD when you wrote them up, if they had any influence on the build, and if there are any revisons you would wantto make with the release of the XPH.
1. Vile Darkness did, I'm still looking over Exaulted Deeds for the second. Primarily the influence was in Dragon Magic (wth the Vile Damage). I don't know if I am going to make the Avanhion a definitely good-guy - after all, Preservers can run the gambit from good to evil. I made Dragons definite bad guys, because even in 2e, it had Defilers able to be any non-good alignment, and to me it makes sense to keep them like that. But, I might still integrate some of the ideas from ED for it. But there's so many things that influenced my write-up/design for them, that I really can't point out everything.
2. Actually, surprisingly, I haven't seen anything in the XPH that I can think of that requires me to make modifications to my Dragons and Avangions. I generalized a LOT of the rules to be able to be used for both Psions and Psychic Warriors, and effectively have included Wilders in the mix without trying. My rewrite of "Psionic Enchantments" still works in the new system, and the +1 manifester level per level of dragon or avangion still works as well. If I find anything outstanding, I will probably modify it to reflect the system change, but so far, I haven't seen the need.
*holds up hand*
Still waiting for the PDF to be sent to me.
Originally posted by Heretic Apostate
Ahem...
*holds up hand*
Still waiting for the PDF to be sent to me.
Ok.... just for you, since you didn't see it 4 or 5 messages above this in the thread,
Here it is!!
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Here it is!!
Nope, sorry, still can't quite see it.
Where's the link again?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Nope, sorry, still can't quite see it.
Where's the link again?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Nope, sorry, still can't quite see it.
Where's the link again?
NytCrawler, sorry . . I'm all out of teet's and boobs to give you. You'll just have to take what I have left.
Now quit being so difficult.
Originally posted by WilliamPall
Are you trying to say I'm being a c o c k? :D
in your descriptions for psionic enchantments and dragon/avangion magic, just join those 2 rules sets into just dragon/avangion magic and use the epic rules for psionic enchantments. (with a few tweaks) As I always felt the psionic enchantments should be more earthshattering in their effects..... like the metamorphosis spells themselves.
Here are the changes I would make to the psionic enchantments and why:
Epic Spellcasting/Manifesting:
The Epic Manifestation feat is used in Dark Sun unmodified, but the Epic Spellcasting feat cannot be taken by normal spellcasters in Athas. Here are the reasons why they cannot use this feat. (Important notes, a wizard that uses a source other than plant and animal life would be able to take the Epic Spellcasting feat as normal.)
The plant life used by preservers and defilers is not a strong enough power source on its own to power epic spellcasting. For this reason preservers and defilers must use psionic power to be able to harness both plant and animal life energy to cast spells of this magnitude.
The power of the elemental planes has more than enough energy to power epic spells, but the mortal frame is too frail to control. So Cleric need to transform their very bodies to be able to harness more energy.
Druids however have to link themselves to an existing Spirit of the Land to be able to focus enough energy to power epic spells, and in doing so forever join with the land itself.
Templars draw their power from a Sorcerer King. (Or Queen) Thus, they are only able to cast what their monarch feeds to them. This is why templars cannot cast epic level spells at all.
Psionic Spellcasting: (Epic, Psionic Feat)
The most powerful masters of the Will and the Way as well as magic, have found there is a way to focus the Will to control magical energies to create effects undreamed of with spellcasting alone.
Prerequisites: Ability to manifest highest level powers from their psionic class, (9 for Psion or wilder, 6 for Psychic warrior.) ability to cast 9th level spells, (of either arcane or divine.) knowledge 24, (arcana for defilers or preservers, nature for druids, and planes for clerics. Templar spells cannot be used to create Psionic Enchantments) knowledge (psionic) 18, spellcraft 24, and psicraft 18.
Benefit: Allows character to research and cast Psionic Enchantments. (This replaces Epic level spellcasting in Dark Sun.)
Normal: A caster cannot cast Psionic Enchantments without this feat.
Special: Arcane Psionic Enchantments require so much energy they drain from both plant and animal life. For preservers this does not change much, however for defilers this means any Psionic Enchantment defiles both plants and animals in its radius. (Defiles plants as usual and animals are drained of 2hp/spell level, every round of casting, as if the defiler had the Obsidian Focus feat as a virtual feat for Psionic Enchantments only.) Psionic Enchantments are treated as 10th level spells for the purpose of defiler radius and drain.
and the way to balance epic spellcasting to show the effects of and the power of psionic enchantments comes in some new mitigating factors for them:
New mitigating factors: (Psionic Enchantments only)
Spell requires the expenditure or Power Points each time cast. -1 per 2 Power Points used. *
Minimum animal life energy drain. (Defiler only.) -1 per 10 HD drained. **
Sacrificing through combat creature of opposing force. -1 per HD of sacrificed. ***
Rage state for 1d10 years after spell cast. (Will save to resist) -1 per 2 points over 15 on DC
Increase duration of rage state. -3 per 1d10 years (max +9d10)
Casting spell within 60 yards of a tree of life. -5 (may only be taken once)
Casting spell in an area that has not been defiled. -2/mile diameter ****
* Power Points are spent at beginning of casting and are lost even if spell fails.
** This increases casting time till the amount of drain required is reached.
*** To cast the Psionic Enchantment, caster must personally slay a creature of opposing force, of no less than 20HD. Must begin spell within 48 hours of the death. (For defilers, opposing is preservers or druids. For preservers or druids, opposing is defilers. For clerics, opposing is a cleric or elemental creature of the opposing element.)
**** This land must be walked by the caster and marked out as part of the spellcasting.
As I said before I am really coming to like your system and may just drop the prestige class system I have been working on. (similiar to yours in a way but has 10 templates and 1 prestige class which advances the templates automatically if you do not "rush" the proccess. but you lose powers if you rush it.
let me know what you think of what i did to "fix" some of the holes in epic casting to bring it more in line with psionic enchantments
I think you will find you can get a more accurate DC for the spells you did up this way, and this would even allow for some customization of particular dragons metamorphosis. (some could for instance sacrifice more creatures to forgo the buildings, or to make the transformation a little easier on themselves)
Obsidian Focus: (psionic)
Wizards have found that by focusing their draining through obsidian that they can draw from the animal life in an area instead of the plant life. While this seems at first glance to be a form of preserver magic, because they are focussing through a third party medium (the obsidian) the caster loses the ability to determine how much they should drain. So this is actually one of the most insidious forms of defiler magic. Several preservers who have used this ability have found that without obsidian to focus their magic, they have lost control of the draw on magic and find themselves defiling without meaning to.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast arcane spells, knowledge (arcana): 8, knowledge (psionic): 8
Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. Casting spells in this manner is considered defiling, so has the standard chance of converting a preserver to a defiler and does count against the number of times they have defiled. Important note, this would allow an arcane caster to cast spells in areas devoid of plant life, but the abundance of animal life follows a similiar table to that of the plant life table.
By using a piece of obsidian to focus the drain prior to casting a spell, the caster draws from the surrounding animal life instead of the plant life. The drain radius remains the same, 5 ft/spell level radius. All living creatures (including caster) in the defiler radius are drained of 2hp/spell level per round. (1hp in the case of 0 level spells) This means if the caster continues defiling for the an additional round, per the rules on defiling, then all the living creatures in the radius would be drained of 4hp/spell level total.
Normal: A wizard can only drain plant life to cast their spells.
Special: If the wizard "attunes" a flawless orb of obsidian, of cost no less than 1,000cp, they can use the orb as their obsidian focus without draining from themselves when they cast in this manner. The attuning process involves the swallowing of the orb and allowing it to pass through their body.
though it could just as easily refference your versions of the obsidian orbs.
And if you wanted me to combine the effects of Psionic Enchantments with Dragon/Avangion magic, you apparently didn't understand the purpose I made for those. ALL advanced Beings will have psionic enchantments. Dragons also have Dragon Magic, and Avangions also have Avangion Magic - but the psionic enchantments are something they share, as well as with Cleric-Elementals and Spirits of the Land.
And there's no reason to have a special feat for the Obsidian Orbs. I was working towards basically a set of psionic items that would be various green-age uses for obsidian orbs - primarily for the Last sea region, while the Dragon Magic also utilizes another type of Empowered Obsidian Orb. They are psionic devices, not arcane. However, they augment Arcane magic, whern made according to the rules I have presented. It helps represent the interdependency of the two forces within the Dragon, where Psionics are used to augment, and boost arcane magic above and beyond the "norm" - producing effects that aren't even part of Epic Spellcasting.
Rewriting the Epic spellcasting and epic Manifesting feats - well..... Until you've done some serious research, and playtesting of that system (I spent months with a group of players looking it over, and ripping it apart), you probably won't understand when I say this: The system is horrendously broken. It's broken more than Paizo's version of Dark Sun is broken. I have found absolutely no (nada, nil, nein) value whatsoever in the Epic Spellcasting system as it is presented in the Epic Level Handbook. Each and every one of the spells it lists are either extremely ineffectual when compared to 9th (or even lower) level spells, or are downright lethal to the caster, or have way too high a Spellcraft DC, so much that a character would need to be closer to level 80 before attempting them, or any combination of the three. further, their design/construction system for new Epic Spells are even more restrictive - it's a horribly pointless system all together, and is far better, less stressful, and more effective, as well as significantly better balanced for a character to simply get the Improved Spell Capacity feat and all the metamagic-related epic feats. My use of Epic Spellcasting in my system is only because I think it's a great idea. And, I do not rely on it beyond the spells I designed, without using their rules for contructing the spells, which would have resulted in people not starting the metamorphosis process until about level 70, or they would die from it.
I will take your points 1 at a time to try and more clearly state my idea:
first I was not making epic manifesting province of only advanced.... as psionics is so prevelent that is the exact opposite of what i was wanting. I want epic manifesting as usual.
Now on epic spellcasting. In all other worlds arcane magic is a pervasive and almost unlimited resource, not so in Dark Sun. All the fluff leads us to see a limited and dimminishing magic source in plant life. (and the fluff even shows the most powerful magic requires animal life in addition.) Also to be honest when I first saw epic spellcasting when it came out, the first thing I thought of was that they had updated the old psionic enchantment system to 3.0. (there are major simiarities) Now the only changes I made to epic spellcasting was to add new mitigating factors, (with a darksun specific theme from the old 2ed rules and fluff. I have playtested the epic spellcasting ..... extensively.... and I agree, as written it is pretty flawed. The primary flaw I found with it was the limited amount of mitigating factors, which prevented higher power spells from actually being useful. The mitigating factors for psionic enchantments, I made cover this quite well.)
And on divine casters, I was going by the idea that they draw from the elemental planes, and the very land itself...... and the mortal frame cannot withstand that kind of power without some kind of focus. (psionics) in normal worlds they have a god or other force that helps protect them, but I just do not see the elemental forces being that benevolent
Also I should point out that I was stating that wizards using a different power source, ie the grey or the black or tyr storms.... would be able to take epic spellcasting as normal. It is only standard wizards (preservers/defilers), elemental clerics, and druids that must take psionic enchantments to wield the most powerful spells. (and each of these classes are already significantly different from normal dnd so making a minor adjustment on their epic levels is not a big thing)
Next, I was saying that the form of "psionic enchantments" that you have in your version seems to fit more as part of the dragon/avangion magic that you have, rather than as a seperate system for the psionic enchantments. (IMHO it just does not seem powerfull enough to fit the fluff for how far reaching psionic enchantments are.)
On the Obisidian orbs, that is not the feat to make orbs or even defining what they are, I just had to list it as I refferenced that feat in the Psionic enchantment section of my post, this is just a feat for a wizard to use the orbs in a different way.
Actually on obisidian orbs I feel similiar to you, they are a psionic device not magical. (loved the mindlords btw, gotta love surfer "druuuiidss" lol) I personally see them as a specialized version of a coznigance crystal, that is designed to store life force. whole minds in the case of the mindlords and in Dregoth's city of guistall (the psionic "elevator") and life energy in the case of what dragons use them for.
I have loved Athas since it first came out and have been looking at converting the epic stuff since the epic handbook first came out. (I have like 15 or so rejected versions,likely to add a couple more now, after having seen yours, as I think it fits better than mine on the actual transformations for the 2 wizard types.)(dark sun has been my favorite setting since it was released and unfortunately I normally end up running it instead of playing in it because I know the fluff, and most of my players dont know the history and such..... which is good)
As I said before, I love your version and I am actually looking to adopt some of it for my epic stuff in my campaign. (actually most of it) I just had some constructive critism/ideas that I feel could define it a bit better. just my opinions to give you another view on it.
oh and on the stuff I have posted on this thread I already got rid of the advanced being prestige as being needed, (as I am looking as using most of the stuff from yours for the metamorphosis. I am just trying to streamline it a bit.) I just presented the psionic spellcasting as a Epic Feat which replaces the epic spellcasting feat for most casters..... so a nondragon or avangion could cast psionic enchantments..... they just need the psionics still to focus it... (which will get rid of the chicken and the egg problem [or catch-22 as you said] with the old 2ed, and most of the other versions of the transformation I have seen, for needing to cast a psionic enchantment to be able to learn them. This also explains elemental clerics who are transforming as they can cast psionic enchantments even though they are technically only changed for a limitted portion of the each day at the earlier stages.)
They however CANNOT cast dragon magic/avangion magic. (oh btw been working on an alternate for that that is simplified but keeps the feel of what you were doing also.)
The idea is set dragon magic/avangion magic to be specific type of spells. (memorized as normal and everything) That can be augmented with power points (like powers in the Exp Psi Handbook) and are treated as both magic and psi so only the lesser of PR or SR works against them. (this even fits with tithian using the powers in the second of the pentad books as he had sacha and wyan assisting him in the casting of the "dragon magic")
This could give you spells that are soley the provinence of the advanced beings without making the rules overly complex, and even fits near seemlessly into the existing 3.5 rules for spellcasting and manifesting. (and you can customize the spells by what kind of effect they have on how they can be augmented... just like the powers)
On them gaining dragon magic in stages, the stages could control max level of a dragon magic spell the dragon could cast. (each template x 3 for max level of spell for instance with the final 4 template allowing unlimited. so a 2nd stage dragon could cast up to 6th level dragon magic spells, while a 4th stage - final form dragon could cast ones of 10+ level)
btw you do realize I am using you as a sounding board on some ideas, (that I have been testing out) as you have already taken care of most of the issues I saw with designing the dragons/avangions right?
Originally posted by seker
I agree we both see it slightly differently, and as I have said I think yours is very well thought out.
Aye, I need to remember that, and keep in mind that my way isn't necessarily the only way. But yep.
oh and on the stuff I have posted on this thread I already got rid of the advanced being prestige as being needed, (as I am looking as using most of the stuff from yours for the metamorphosis. I am just trying to streamline it a bit.) I just presented the psionic spellcasting as a Epic Feat which replaces the epic spellcasting feat for most casters..... so a nondragon or avangion could cast psionic enchantments..... they just need the psionics still to focus it... (which will get rid of the chicken and the egg problem [or catch-22 as you said] with the old 2ed, and most of the other versions of the transformation I have seen, for needing to cast a psionic enchantment to be able to learn them. This also explains elemental clerics who are transforming as they can cast psionic enchantments even though they are technically only changed for a limitted portion of the each day at the earlier stages.)
Interesting.
They however CANNOT cast dragon magic/avangion magic. (oh btw been working on an alternate for that that is simplified but keeps the feel of what you were doing also.)
The idea is set dragon magic/avangion magic to be specific type of spells. (memorized as normal and everything) That can be augmented with power points (like powers in the Exp Psi Handbook) and are treated as both magic and psi so only the lesser of PR or SR works against them. (this even fits with tithian using the powers in the second of the pentad books as he had sacha and wyan assisting him in the casting of the "dragon magic")
This could give you spells that are soley the provinence of the advanced beings without making the rules overly complex, and even fits near seemlessly into the existing 3.5 rules for spellcasting and manifesting. (and you can customize the spells by what kind of effect they have on how they can be augmented... just like the powers)
I've toyed with the idea, but I decided it was too much effort to make up spells that would be the province of advanced beings alone. And many of the 10th level spells from AD&D are....underpowered or ineffectual, compared to other spells that anyone can cast from 3e.
On them gaining dragon magic in stages, the stages could control max level of a dragon magic spell the dragon could cast. (each template x 3 for max level of spell for instance with the final 4 template allowing unlimited. so a 2nd stage dragon could cast up to 6th level dragon magic spells, while a 4th stage - final form dragon could cast ones of 10+ level)
Interesting take on it.
btw you do realize I am using you as a sounding board on some ideas, (that I have been testing out) as you have already taken care of most of the issues I saw with designing the dragons/avangions right?
Yep, I usually do the same here - which sometimes includes arguing against something that I eventually incorperate into my write-ups. I sometimes attack an idea, to help see the support and rationale behind it, and give it as much scrutiny as I do with my own ideas. Unfortunately, I can also go off the deep end on them as well.
so for instance a good third level would be a new form of fireball
but you can advance it in the following ways....
1 power point per additional damage die
3 power points per increase in damage die type.... to d8, d10, etc..
5 power points to split it to 2 identical balls.....
etc..
not too hard to do and pretty simple..... and also means characters who get that high need to RESEARCH to gain the advantages of their newfound power. (no freebies here on spells)
Psionic Enchantments = world changing events, like raising a city of undead, transforming into a dragon, sealing off a city from magic, etc... But requires massive rituals and power expinditure.... ie anyone could learn it with discipline and magical power. (mastery of spells and the way in this case)
dragon and avangion magic = the ability to meld psionics into magic in a lower scale without the trappings of psionic enchantments........ ie innate ability of those who have changed themselves with a being linked into both. (this would explain Borys need to aquire energy to keep Raajat imprisoned and why he had to be fully changed..... it was a 10th level or higher spell he was augmenting...)
I was also looking as the dragon magic spells being considered both magic and psionic, even if not augmented, so only the lower of SR and PR works against them.
and by using the epic spellcasting rules (with the mitigating factors I mentioned in my previous post to even them out somewhat) you get a good general psionic enchantment form that gets rid of the old catch 22 on defiler and preserver metamorphosis.
btw when I get home from work, I plan to take a look at your template spells you did to see how they would even out with my rules...... just to see how my DC's would equate vs. how you have it..... cant hurt.... and might even give you a solid creation method that would give it a basis right out of 3.5 epic. (looks good as it is but this will give you another argument against detractors)
Originally posted by seker
That is kind of what I was going at with it. I was looking at it as the following:
Psionic Enchantments = world changing events, like raising a city of undead, transforming into a dragon, sealing off a city from magic, etc... But requires massive rituals and power expinditure.... ie anyone could learn it with discipline and magical power. (mastery of spells and the way in this case)
dragon and avangion magic = the ability to meld psionics into magic in a lower scale without the trappings of psionic enchantments........ ie innate ability of those who have changed themselves with a being linked into both. (this would explain Borys need to aquire energy to keep Raajat imprisoned and why he had to be fully changed..... it was a 10th level or higher spell he was augmenting...)
I was also looking as the dragon magic spells being considered both magic and psionic, even if not augmented, so only the lower of SR and PR works against them.
and by using the epic spellcasting rules (with the mitigating factors I mentioned in my previous post to even them out somewhat) you get a good general psionic enchantment form that gets rid of the old catch 22 on defiler and preserver metamorphosis.
btw when I get home from work, I plan to take a look at your template spells you did to see how they would even out with my rules...... just to see how my DC's would equate vs. how you have it..... cant hurt.... and might even give you a solid creation method that would give it a basis right out of 3.5 epic. (looks good as it is but this will give you another argument against detractors)
I have almost a completely opposite view.
Psionic Enchantments: the ability to blend magic and psionics together, allowing for one to make spells work like powers, complete with augmentation that allows for them to extend beyond the "normal" magical limits, and forcing creatures to have both Spell and Power Resistances to compensate for it, and for Powers to be useable like spells, allowing for metamagic and other advanced being-specific abilities to treat them as if they were spells. this is something universal to all Advanced Beings, and separates them from "normal" Epic Spellcasters or Manifesters.
Dragon/Avangion/etc. Advanced Being Magic: Specific to the type of Advanced Being - theyse are the powerful, world-changing abilities with magic and psionics they each possess that can significantly augment and empower magic, and with psionic enchantment rules, powers as well. The Dragons' ability to raze animal life as well as plant life (leading to some impressive power at Stage-4 that allowed Borys to keep the seals on Rajaat's prison even), the Avangion's power to begin using himself as his exclusive power source and become independent of the land (as well as help restore the land, and have some sort of temporal link to the past), these are the types of things that this encompases. For Cleric-elementals, I was thinking of them integrating with a stronger and stronger connection to their plane (maybe becoming..... something like powerful elemental vortices?), and thus can tap that connection for much more power, but their spells become "tainted" or "colored" with their respective element. with Druids, I was thinking they get more powerful due to the communal nature of Spirits of the Land, as they get integrated into it, and can gain a significant amount of power as long as they are within the proper range of the "core energy" of their respective Spirit of the Land they are joining. This augments, and boosts the power that each advanced being has with magic and psionics, overlaying it all with a unique power increase to each, and basically helps make the different advanced being types separate, and more well-defined.
Epic Spellcasting/Epic Manifesting - The special collection of researched spells and powers that are considered "10th level" for many purposes, while not the same thing, that any Epic spellcaster of Manifester can undertake. The spells needed to initiate metamorphosis processes for people undertaking Advanced Being changes, as well as an expanded array of new, individually-researchable spells or powers. I am planning on significantly overhauling this system, especially since it is now listed in the SRD, into something far more useful and effective. Arcane spellcasters of Epic Level can use Epic Spellcasting, but it requires a larger drain on the plant life (or the cerulean storm, the gray, the black, etc. based on their choices during advancing) around them. Advanced Beings, like Avangions and Dragons can further boost this with their mastery of other sources of power - like that of animal life (dragons), and their own newfound inner reserves (avangions).
Basically - Epic Spellcasting/Manifesting can lead to different people becoming Advanced Beings, which all share "psionic enchantments", while each has their own unique powerful type of "Magic" that the utliize.
Also - much appreciated. I kinda pulled the numbers "out of my ass" for the spells, and haven't had rthe chance to really, truely review them with a fine-toothed comb yet.
You know we are both looking into the same house just from windows opposite each other right? I get the feeling we are both looking for the same thing just have slightly different ideas.
I propose the following comprimise on the psionic enchantments, lets make a feat that combines our two ideas: (this would give the feel for it you were looking at and I was looking at, as well as givnig a new prerequisite to make those going for advanced beings more focussed..... as well as explaining Nok from the pentad novels, and possibly tithians use of "dragon magic" under the instructions of sacha and wyan prior to him getting anywere near high enough to transform.)
* has high knowledge (psionics, and one of the following arcana, planes, or nature), spellcraft, psicraft, and a minmum spellcasting and manifesting ability as requirements. (not sure if we would want to make this epic or just really high as they would also need epic spellcasting also to cast psionic enchantments.)
* Allows the casting of psionic augmented spells per the format I gave earlier and also makes the given spells combine both psionics and magic you use the lower of your SR or PR. (up to you if you think the pther augmented aspects of your psionic enchantments should be added)
* Allows the casting of Psionic Enchantments if you have Epic Spellcasting.
Then we can have epic spellcasting as it is printed in the epic book for normal casters. But those who devote enought of their energy into psi and magic get the new mitigating factors I worked up which allows their powers to be much more powerful and would allow for the metamorphosis. (this should explain away how someone who is not a advanced being is able to cast the first change which requires psi as well as magic.)
on the advanced being magic, in your last post I think you nailed it, I might have some ideas if you are interested on how to make working rules to go with concepts. (that is one of the things I have always been good at, rules to fit fluff.)
Originally posted by seker
Sorry dont have the spell DC with me at the moment, right after I got off work, the wife and son wanted to go to gram's to swim. So posting from her computer so do not have all my stuff with me to make the DC's. will do it when I get home.
You know we are both looking into the same house just from windows opposite each other right? I get the feeling we are both looking for the same thing just have slightly different ideas.
I propose the following comprimise on the psionic enchantments, lets make a feat that combines our two ideas: (this would give the feel for it you were looking at and I was looking at, as well as givnig a new prerequisite to make those going for advanced beings more focussed..... as well as explaining Nok from the pentad novels, and possibly tithians use of "dragon magic" under the instructions of sacha and wyan prior to him getting anywere near high enough to transform.)
(In my opinion, from how the novel explained it: ) What Nok used, and Tithian used, were empowered obsaidian orbs, which are a prerequisite to Dragon Magic, and what I covered in my Empowered Obsidian Orb descriptions. what Dragon Magic, in my system is, is actually more and more powerful versions of that, enhancing it significantly at each stage of development. He didn't use "psionic enchantments", and Nok didn't need to either - the cane had an obsidian orb in it, and had been fixed to allow for a more preserver-like capability with it.
* has high knowledge (psionics, and one of the following arcana, planes, or nature), spellcraft, psicraft, and a minmum spellcasting and manifesting ability as requirements. (not sure if we would want to make this epic or just really high as they would also need epic spellcasting also to cast psionic enchantments.)
* Allows the casting of psionic augmented spells per the format I gave earlier and also makes the given spells combine both psionics and magic you use the lower of your SR or PR. (up to you if you think the pther augmented aspects of your psionic enchantments should be added)
* Allows the casting of Psionic Enchantments if you have Epic Spellcasting.
Then we can have epic spellcasting as it is printed in the epic book for normal casters. But those who devote enought of their energy into psi and magic get the new mitigating factors I worked up which allows their powers to be much more powerful and would allow for the metamorphosis. (this should explain away how someone who is not a advanced being is able to cast the first change which requires psi as well as magic.)
on the advanced being magic, in your last post I think you nailed it, I might have some ideas if you are interested on how to make working rules to go with concepts. (that is one of the things I have always been good at, rules to fit fluff.)
I dunno. I kinda like the idea of making it a feat, but.... I really don't know about this. Psionic Enchantments should be the privy of the Advanced Beings [u]only[/i], not something that any Epic Spellcaster/Manifester could achieve without starting the metamorphosis. As such, I either could see it as a feat they all automatically get at level 1, and is specifically only for all Advanced Beings, or it just becomes a class or template feature of the beginning part of the metamorphoses, which makes a little more sense rules-wise. and again, you're wanting to blur the lines that I see as well-defined and precise, which are covered in my categories I've already presented above. We appear to be talking about the same thing, but the differences are mre than simply color or angle, unfortunately.
Nok: the way you have dragon magic and the orbs draining just does not fit with how either Nok, (with his orb) the sorcerer monarchs, sadira, (when she had the cane) or the dragon drained...... they drained all around them not just who they targeted...... by your rules a dragon could avoid draining their friends when it was indesciminate in all the fluff and the 2ed rules. Now I concede, that it is possible that Noks power was only from orbs, (as he actually had one on a necklace he used when fighting Sadira) but his knowledge of them and apparent ability to create them is really suspect and (just a personal opinion) by my point of view using obsidian orbs would just be a more subversive version of defiling...... because while the power you drain can be replunished, since the actual focus for the energy is outside your body, you would have less control of the flow. Nok always struck me as being a defiler/psionicist in 2ed and a psion (telepath)/wizard (defiler) in 3.x due to his attitudes in the novels...... plus from the descriptions he would have both 9th level spells and powers.
Now tithian is a totally different case because the second novel states clearly he was using "dragon magic", when he sent his head to look over the army. Magic that combined both the way and arcane ability. (mind you he was getting help from sacha and wyan..... but by the fluff, neither of them were actually dragons, so how could they cast dragon magic, or even psionic enchantments by your rules. They were both champions who were beheaded PRIOR to borys making the others sorcerer kings and dragons.) And while the later books talk of him having several obsidian orbs of Kalak, they are very specific in that he could not use them for anything yet.
I am really not trying to blur the lines more than they already were from both the fluff and the old rules.....
The whole catch 22 of a defiler or preserver metamorphosing is that it take a psionic enchantment to make that kind of change to a character, but in the old rules you could not cast a psionic enchantment till after you had transformed. not to mention the elemental clerics were able to cast them at any time..... not just in their changed state.
I personally have always preffered to keep psionic enchantments solely the provence of the advanced beings but am having problems justifying it now. What we really need is some kind of intermediary feat, or something that would allow the first transformation for the arcane casters without giving them full psionic enchantments.
one posibility would be a feat that allows you to be able to cast a single psionic enchantment if you have epic spellcasting and the appropriate requirements for manifesting.
btw working on the DC's right now
Even though 2e seems to indicate the psionic enchantments are the realm only of advanced beings... i can see, with 3e mechanics.... that maybe they should be a little more accessible to powerful individuals... who chose not to become advanced beings (or maybe don't know how?) but could do it...
hmmm
without them the Avangions basically cannot be done short of going 50+ in level with any chance..... with them.... I hate to tell you this but the first one has a DC of 28 and the next three stages are in the negatives, by what you have for the requirements on them.
On dragons it is even worse...... even under standard rules the transformations are in the negatives unless you skip all the stages save the last to start with..... and even then the DC is really low. (main issue on dragons is they only need one spell seed till the the final stage and it is already a permanent one.
And this was with standard rules I did not even try with the mitigating factors. (you spaced all your changes out to the prestige classes and made the actual changes easy because of it.)
if you would like I can take a look at what I could do on the base 4 templates of each (not touching the prestige classes) and try to keep them in line with what you were wanting, but up them to the point where they get a decent DC..... if you have target DC's I can work from there for you.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Hey Seeker, you raised an interesting point about the whole psionic enchantment / advanced being thing... i mean, in the old system, if you were a defiler (necromancer) / psion... and got to 20/20 but decided NOT to become a dragon... but instead, maybe became undead... do you really think that being couldn't cast psioinc enchantments? i think it would...
Even though 2e seems to indicate the psionic enchantments are the realm only of advanced beings... i can see, with 3e mechanics.... that maybe they should be a little more accessible to powerful individuals... who chose not to become advanced beings (or maybe don't know how?) but could do it...
hmmm
Actually I personally preffer the Psionic Enchantments to be the provence of the Advanced beings, but I see there being possibly a lesser form that could be learned that is not as strong for the unchanged.
Originally posted by seker
Actually I personally preffer the Psionic Enchantments to be the provence of the Advanced beings, but I see there being possibly a lesser form that could be learned that is not as strong for the unchanged.
I am only looking into ways to adjust fluff to rules at this point to balance out the systems.
Originally posted by seker
Xlor I did the calculations on the spells using both epic rules without my mitigating factors and with them.
without them the Avangions basically cannot be done short of going 50+ in level with any chance..... with them.... I hate to tell you this but the first one has a DC of 28 and the next three stages are in the negatives, by what you have for the requirements on them.
On dragons it is even worse...... even under standard rules the transformations are in the negatives unless you skip all the stages save the last to start with..... and even then the DC is really low. (main issue on dragons is they only need one spell seed till the the final stage and it is already a permanent one.
And this was with standard rules I did not even try with the mitigating factors. (you spaced all your changes out to the prestige classes and made the actual changes easy because of it.)
if you would like I can take a look at what I could do on the base 4 templates of each (not touching the prestige classes) and try to keep them in line with what you were wanting, but up them to the point where they get a decent DC..... if you have target DC's I can work from there for you.
Basically - I want DC's to be somewhere around a 50/50 chance for someone who doesn't rush the process. For dragons and avangions, use wizard/psion as your base. What would the DC be for the spells, for a wizard/psion be, in order to have a 50/50 chance of success for developing the spell? At, let's say, level 26. This will make it harder for lower levels, and easier for higher ones.
The problem is, right off the bat, that... umm... epic saving throws go up all sucky. hmm....
now on the fort save, to be honest your fort saves kinda confused me for a second. (I know in 2ed they had to save or die but just the DC's you chose are a little strange) Here is why:
A wizard going for avangion if they go straight classes to get requirements. (no crerebromancer class or anything) has less than a 50% chance to make any of those saves with a standard con. (if uses crerebromancer class to get there quicker has only a 30% chance) Untill there first size increase and then they are fine on the saves.
Dragons however have it easy unless the skip stages on the save to survice. As their DC is 5 less at every stage. (and as they gain several sizes in the transformation pretty much at the end they dont even need to roll. Even on a skip stage, with the size changes they will be fine on the later spells)
To be honest you would be better off using backlash to represent the chance of death on it. (which is what backlash was designed for to show the chance of death from drain in casting spells.) just let me know the percentage chance of a standard char dying you want is on the spells and I will work it up. (this will also make the dragon tranformation more risky and the avangion one a little less so.) The fort save you had for dragons though, was really pretty useless save against a total shortcut character who was skipping.... and even then they had a better chance than an avangion to succeed.
your concepts on it are great we just need to massage the system to get the rules the way you want is all. If you let me know what survival rate you want on a average transformation I can work up either a good fort save (which I would not reccomend but will do if that is how you want it.) or a decent backlash.
An idea I was using on some template spells I created along these lines was have a base spell for characters but they could "modify" it (ie adding new mitigating factors, to up the drain, or backlash) to make it easier for them to do. Remember by the old rules and epic, each person must research their own version. If you want something like this I would do up the spell and then have a list in the spell of how they could lower the DC.
Let me know and I will get to work on them and post the prototypes on them, probably tonight for you.
Lets work on this first then we can go back to our other topics on kinks on psi enchantments and such
you have no idea how much I enjoy challenges like this....... this is fun for me.
Originally posted by seker
no problem (btw the easiest way to find the DC for one that would gove a 50/50 change on any specific level on the epic spells is level + 13 for the DC) So for one going through at proper levels with no shortcuts ( no taking cerebromancer or such) the DCs at each stage would be 39, 49, 59, 69. I will get to work on that.
Oops forgot to take in account for high stats........... so the 45 55 65 and 75 are good DC's
first how exacting do you want me to stay to your requirements, the reason I am asking is your exp loss actually exceeds the maxes for epic spells, and wanted to find out on the overwhelming magic items if you must have them be artifacts or if epic level items would work. (from a rp standpoint, that becomes a limitting factor for avangions to advance if it is only artifacts.) Also do you want magic items to be required for the tranformation or an option to lower the DC's
second what are the preffered general type of abilities would you like to see added to the initial templates to raise the DCs a bit to even out with the requirements. (remember changes in physical stats, natural armor, movement rates due to body parts and such do not increase the DC for transform seed, but things like mental boosts, supernatural or extrodanary abilites, SR/PR, spell/psilike abilities, and the like do.)
Let me know and I will get to work on them for you.
just had a couple of epiphonies on the way to work this morning. thought I would let you know as they have to do with our discussions
first I have an elegant solution to our conflict on the psionic enchantments that also closes out the grey area in the fluff.
We do the psionic spellcasting feat..... BUT it requires you have fey, dragon, elemental, or <? whatever we make spirit of the land.. most likely elemental> type to take it. Also give avangions and Dragons the feat as part of the 1st template. But do not give clerics or druids it when the change for free.... they must buy it with a feat.
this keeps the nonadvanced from taking it ...... but gives it as an option to some of those that were altered by the sorcerer kings..... such as the dray, (who are already partially changed by the same kind of spell as the metamorphosis) or half elementals. As they are already linked to the specific power types.
on being able to cast the first spell prior to getting psionic enchantments..... the solution is simple, a defiler metamorphosis feat and a preserver metamorphosis feat. It is a slight change along that of what the elans had done to them making them similiar to the elans in stats. (ageless, possibly psi changes to body) and grants them the ability to research and cast the first template spell.
third..... you were mentioning that avangions magic draws from an inner reserve kinda thing..... made me wonder, if the sorcerer king template (ie the ability to grant templar spells) did not actually pull from avangion magic, you know the linking up to a source to give a inner reserve for granting power..... that would definately give characters an additional reason to want to go the preserver route...... they get to grant powers to templars... (I would say in the mid stages if we do decide to go this route.)
let me know what you think xlor
Originally posted by seker
oh two more questions while I build the spells....
first how exacting do you want me to stay to your requirements, the reason I am asking is your exp loss actually exceeds the maxes for epic spells, and wanted to find out on the overwhelming magic items if you must have them be artifacts or if epic level items would work. (from a rp standpoint, that becomes a limitting factor for avangions to advance if it is only artifacts.) Also do you want magic items to be required for the tranformation or an option to lower the DC's
second what are the preffered general type of abilities would you like to see added to the initial templates to raise the DCs a bit to even out with the requirements. (remember changes in physical stats, natural armor, movement rates due to body parts and such do not increase the DC for transform seed, but things like mental boosts, supernatural or extrodanary abilites, SR/PR, spell/psilike abilities, and the like do.)
Let me know and I will get to work on them for you.
Ok, I know the XP loss actually exceeds the loss for Epic Spells - because the rules for making epic spells are significantly BROKEN. However, I'm curious what you think it should be following the epic spell design, so I'd appreciate if you stick it to that.
The overwhelming magic options - well, actually, as I see magic items being rare as hell anyway.... Epic Level items could work. I thought I had that detailed in the spell descriptions.... hmm...
Also - the use of the magic items to be destroyed/drained for the spell is very much a requirement - they need that to supplement the requirement that Dragons have with life energy.
Umm.... the templates arenot' to be changed. The PrC's aren't to be changed. I want to see the spells changed to fit better. Don't worry about the "accelerated" processes, unles syou think you can tackle them - I'll review them after you get the new values for the other.
Now, when you are asking about DC's - do you mean the Spellcraft DC, or something else? If either, adjust them according to the guidelines I gave above. Bear in mind - I feel that the Avangion process should be a little harder than the Dragon one. And that the initial transformational spell should be a 50% (IE: A roll of 11+ on a d20) chance of success for someone at level 26 - for the Dragon. I'd say closer to a 40% (IE: A roll of 13+ on a d20) chance of success for an Avangion.
Originally posted by seker
argh I am the multiposter now.
just had a couple of epiphonies on the way to work this morning. thought I would let you know as they have to do with our discussions
first I have an elegant solution to our conflict on the psionic enchantments that also closes out the grey area in the fluff.
We do the psionic spellcasting feat..... BUT it requires you have fey, dragon, elemental, or <? whatever we make spirit of the land.. most likely elemental> type to take it. Also give avangions and Dragons the feat as part of the 1st template. But do not give clerics or druids it when the change for free.... they must buy it with a feat.
this keeps the nonadvanced from taking it ...... but gives it as an option to some of those that were altered by the sorcerer kings..... such as the dray, (who are already partially changed by the same kind of spell as the metamorphosis) or half elementals. As they are already linked to the specific power types.
on being able to cast the first spell prior to getting psionic enchantments..... the solution is simple, a defiler metamorphosis feat and a preserver metamorphosis feat. It is a slight change along that of what the elans had done to them making them similiar to the elans in stats. (ageless, possibly psi changes to body) and grants them the ability to research and cast the first template spell.
third..... you were mentioning that avangions magic draws from an inner reserve kinda thing..... made me wonder, if the sorcerer king template (ie the ability to grant templar spells) did not actually pull from avangion magic, you know the linking up to a source to give a inner reserve for granting power..... that would definately give characters an additional reason to want to go the preserver route...... they get to grant powers to templars... (I would say in the mid stages if we do decide to go this route.)
let me know what you think xlor
I still don't like it - Psionic Enchantments should only be able to be done by Advanced Beings. Period. No exceptions. It's something that they can do and nobody else. It's something they all get for free when they start to undergo their metamorphosis processes. It's a sort of "special bonus" that kid of ties all Advanced Beings together. I'm not boyinbg into you "Psionic Spellcasting" feat idea - and honestly, I don't think I ever will. Sorry, just not even remotely close to how I percieve it. I don't agree with the feat because it would be a waste of a game mechanic - why havew a feat if the only creatures that can ever get it, automatically get it at level 1? It's pointless, just have it be a feature of the advanced beings themselves, like I did.
All of them can do it - from dragons to avangions to cleric-elementals to spirits of the land. And please, don't confuse a cleric-elemental with a "Elemental". Half-Elementals are half of an Elemental, not a Cleric-Elemental. Cleric-Elementals are far more powerful (you'll see when I get the write-up done, but they are in leage with Avangions & Dragons). I already feel like the Spirit of the Land from MM2 is crap. It's not nearly powerful enough. So, I use that as a "core" creature that druids all join, in a community-like collective-based being composed of multiple druids and this one, original "Spirit of the Land". As such, the metamorphosis doesn't make the Druid into something like is presented in the MM2, it makes them into something else - an extension of a greater being. They are still individuals, with boosted powers, but also gain even more power due to the collective nature of this being they became. They too, are on par with Dragons and Avangions - they are Advanced Beings, not "normal" Creatures (ie: the non-epic creature Spirit of th Land from MM2).
that was not the main epiphonies I was speaking of..... the other two were, just sidetracked myself
I was more curious about what you thought of my my idea around the fix for allowing the first spell change to be cast.
the 2 new epic feats defiler metamorphosis and preserver metamorhosis.
Taking one of these feats would grant the following: becomes ageless, grants the ability to research and cast the FIRST and only the first metamorphosis spell, (later ones require psionic enchantments.) and possibly some minor psi abilities (similiar to the elan abilities)
and what you thought of the idea I had on the avangion magic, possibly leading to the ability the sorcerer kings have of granting templar spells.
oh on the spells, yes I am reffering to the spellcraft DC's. The big problem I was seeing on why the spells DC's were in the negatives is because the changes you have in the templates are MUCH lower in cost to create than the costs you have in mitigating factors on the spells. You spaced out all the gains into the actual prestige classes so there is almost no changes made due to the actual spells.
on adding to the templates I meant something minor, that would just pull in another one or 2 spell seeds.... that would really increase the spellcraft DC's alot for us to offset the costs. (this could be something as minor as a save bonus, SR or PR, changes to mental stats, anything non earthshattering. The reason is if we add in the fortify or ward or any of a bunch of other seeds we get to add the permenancy modifier which multiplies the base modifed DC by 5 before we start removing for mitigating factors. )
Originally posted by seker
that was not the main epiphonies I was speaking of..... the other two were, just sidetracked myself
I was more curious about what you thought of my my idea around the fix for allowing the first spell change to be cast.
the 2 new epic feats defiler metamorphosis and preserver metamorhosis.
Taking one of these feats would grant the following: becomes ageless, grants the ability to research and cast the FIRST and only the first metamorphosis spell, (later ones require psionic enchantments.) and possibly some minor psi abilities (similiar to the elan abilities)
and what you thought of the idea I had on the avangion magic, possibly leading to the ability the sorcerer kings have of granting templar spells.
I don't like this. I don't think another step in the process, and the inclusion of Feats is necessary - it is extra complexity for the sake of complexity. I'm against such things - I only add complex rules when I see a need for them, and even then I work to eventually making them simpler while keeping the same feel. The Metamorphosis Spells should be Epic Spells. They just have a power point cost - which oculd be handled by a requirement of a material compoinent of Cognizance Crystals stored with a specified amount of power points. This way, psionics are included into the mix, without technically being included in the mix.
And I don't think that the power to grant spells like how the Sorcerer-Kings do to Templars, should have any relation to the Avangion or Dragon metamorphoses. It's an independent feature, that they have, due to Borys using the Dark Lens to start their dragon metamorphosis and attracting the living vortices. Especially because you'd be basically making Arcane magic eventually lead to Divne magic - which I think would blur the line, and not keep them as distinct, separate energies. Now, I might include something along those lines for Spirits of the Land, in being able to grant spell energy to Druids - because that's what they do.
oh on the spells, yes I am reffering to the spellcraft DC's. The big problem I was seeing on why the spells DC's were in the negatives is because the changes you have in the templates are MUCH lower in cost to create than the costs you have in mitigating factors on the spells. You spaced out all the gains into the actual prestige classes so there is almost no changes made due to the actual spells.
The Prestige Classes are part of the spell - Think of them as "template classes" - the Spell reaches out and affects throughout the class, not merely the template. Basically, you develop the spell, cast it, the template is the immediate, non-level-connected effects that are applied within the first minutes after successfully casting the spell, and the Prestige Classes are more like the slower ripples, or "aftershocks" from the spell that affect the character at later points. So, apply the DC accordingly. Yes, XP is needed for the different levels of the PrC - but the PrC's are technically even more powerful than other Epic Prestige Classes - they have more things going on. Size/Physical changes, power changes, granting both an incr4ease in arcane magic and psionics, granting a new level of ability with avangion & dragon magic, etc. There's a lot going on with them.
on adding to the templates I meant something minor, that would just pull in another one or 2 spell seeds.... that would really increase the spellcraft DC's alot for us to offset the costs. (this could be something as minor as a save bonus, SR or PR, changes to mental stats, anything non earthshattering. The reason is if we add in the fortify or ward or any of a bunch of other seeds we get to add the permenancy modifier which multiplies the base modifed DC by 5 before we start removing for mitigating factors. )
SR and PR, as well as DR would be kinda nice. Mental Stat changes are already worked in - I've been planning on reviewing the SR, PR and DR anyway. Avangion should have more than Dragon, but with DR's - please remember to stay within the 3.5e limits of this. I don't want to see 40+ DR's for Avangions - because then they'd be better off than GODS.
first on requiring there to be conzigance crystals for the transformation takes care of the problem on the first spell nicely... good idea. (did not see that worked into the requirement on the spell previously but I will note on the first spell that "personal" PP's cannot be used only external and that should get that rid of the catch - 22 without needing to use a feat or such.
on the avangion and templars..... it was just a quick Idea I had, nothing major. ignore it
on the spells..... okay I was not aware you were wanting the prestige classes added into the spells..... the reason why is there is a firm line between templates and prestige classes, and to be honest the changes involved at each level of your prestige classes are not more powerful even than some of the epic prestige classes in the epic handbook. (some of thse are granting heal or planeshift multiple times per day as innate powers, and almost all what your prestige class is granting are just epic level feats. and changing size and shape into a dragon by itself is a really minor spell in the epic spellcasting. just the physical abilities and breath weapon and such would give you a low DC of 50-70 without mitigating factors at all and that would be permanent, and give you the physical stats of a dragon too.) and I will build a new mitigating factor for that, if you are wanting that, no problem.
one other question, on the magic items on the avangion, do you want lifeshaped to count towards them for the purpose of magical or psionic items or not?
btw it is great working on this with you, I get the feeling we are really getting somewhere on this.
Originally posted by seker
on the spells..... okay I was not aware you were wanting the prestige classes added into the spells..... the reason why is there is a firm line between templates and prestige classes, and to be honest the changes involved at each level of your prestige classes are not more powerful even than some of the epic prestige classes in the epic handbook. (some of thse are granting heal or planeshift multiple times per day as innate powers, and almost all what your prestige class is granting are just epic level feats. and changing size and shape into a dragon by itself is a really minor spell in the epic spellcasting. just the physical abilities and breath weapon and such would give you a low DC of 50-70 without mitigating factors at all and that would be permanent, and give you the physical stats of a dragon too.) and I will build a new mitigating factor for that, if you are wanting that, no problem.
one other question, on the magic items on the avangion, do you want lifeshaped to count towards them for the purpose of magical or psionic items or not?
btw it is great working on this with you, I get the feeling we are really getting somewhere on this.
Well, that firm line was altered by Wizards of the Coast with Templte Classes, which to me, fits better for this. Templte Classes are classes you undertake as part of template, or even in lieu of a templatre all together. They had it as a means to have the effects of a template be mitigated to a progression over time, rather than all at once. I liked the idea, and have used it to my own purposes
something to keep in mind with the DC - the PrC's do cost more XP effectively when advanced - the levels of each. As such, this could potentilly lower the DC a bit.
Also - I'm thinking, at level 26, there should be a 25% chance of success (16 or better on a d20), rather than 50% chance, for Dragons (wizard/psion), while it should possibly be only a 15% chance for avangions (18 or better on a d20). My reasoning is this - it should be hrd. It's possible at level 26 to do it, but more likely to be able to do it later. This also makes it very hard for people who are merely level 21 to achieve this.
Then, it should be the same percentge chances for each of the later stages, for someone who actully completes the 10 levels of each stages' class - so, stge 2 should be checked against level 36, stage3 gainst 46 and stage 4 against 56, with the 25% chance of success for dragons, and 15% chance for avangions.
Understand where I'm coming from for this? basically this sets the "optimal" development rate, for the "optimal" class combination, characters then, if they deviate from it, either find it easier or hrder to do so.
I'm also looking into making the Fort saves to suvive each spell reflecting this - so that characters who ttempt it too early, find themselves more likely to be killed from the spell. characters that try it lter, are safer from the effects.
I also think that Avangions should have a higher XP cost than Dragons - about 1.5x that of a Dragon - hopefully I'll be able to reflect the reason behind this with my Avangion Magic write-up. I'm doing it primarily to hrelp give the same "feel" of a longer process to become an Avangion - in 2e rules, Preservers took longer to level, and the XP cost for the spells should potentially reflect this.
Also - the items to be consumed - these should be magic items. Not psionic, and not life-shaped. They need the magical energy from the items - to supplement the magical energy (lifeforce) that a dragon consumes to fuel their metamorphosis, as well as the reliance on Obsidian Orbs that a Dragon has. I probably need to review these items, and balance them more - either increasing the number of them, or the power of them, for the Avangions' spell stages. Once used, these items cease to exist - so effectively, the Avangion is destroying items to further their progression, which, in light of othe method Dragons do, this provides two things. First - it harms no one. Second, it requires more dedication on the part of the Avangion to find the requisite items they need for their spell.
The Avangion eventually becomes something likened to a Tree of Life - for themselves. They have a font of energy to draw from for their power that is inexhaustable, and completely internal. They will be able to use this to restore what has breen taken from the land by Defilers, and to help restore Athas completely. They can willingly supplement/replace the life-energy that Dragons or other Wizards use to power their spells, with this energy, thus protecting plants (nd animals) from the effects of arcane energy gathering. They quite literally become the ntithesis of what a Dragon is, in this regard.
and ye, it's kinda nice to get some improvements done on my spells. That's something I've been planning on working on, but hadn't achieved as of yet.
You realise when we are done with this, people are just going to look at it and their jaws are gonna drop, right.....
Getting what you are looking at spelled out, is really helping me to see your vision on this...... and I like it.
This should be great fun to work up.
the fort save should work pretty good no major problems, (I will just work up a conversion from backlash to fort save, no biggy.) just how dangerous do you want the fort save? percentage like for the chance to succeed would be best. (let me know how likely you want them to die and we can work it from there. oh btw you do realize with a fort save psychic warriors have less chance to succeed but higher chance of surviving it right?)
Originally posted by seker
You realise when we are done with this, people are just going to look at it and their jaws are gonna drop, right.....
Getting what you are looking at spelled out, is really helping me to see your vision on this...... and I like it.
This should be great fun to work up.
the fort save should work pretty good no major problems, (I will just work up a conversion from backlash to fort save, no biggy.) just how dangerous do you want the fort save? percentage like for the chance to succeed would be best. (let me know how likely you want them to die and we can work it from there. oh btw you do realize with a fort save psychic warriors have less chance to succeed but higher chance of surviving it right?)
Oh - just realized, I had the level off. adjust for level 28, not 26. Should only be 1 point difference on the save DC, while the Spellcraft DC would be two (it takes a level 17 wizard + a level 11 psion to become a dragon or avangion, off the bat, and I use that for a point of reference).
Let's see. I'd say.... for Dragons, at level 28, a wizard/psion should have.... a 50% chance of success. This is something rather nasty, and failure means death. Now - this is without any mitigating factors, like feats to boost saves, or anything, just a strict 17 Wizard/11 Psion with nothing special on their Fortitude, they get a 50% chance to succeed the 1st stage spell. The 2nd Stage spell should be a 45% chance at level 38, the 3rd Stage spell at level 48 should be a 40% chance to succeed, and the 4th stage spell should be a 35% chance to succeed at level 58. This does mean it's getting harder each time.
For Avangions.... make it umm..... 10% better odds- it's harder to develop the Avangion spells, but safer to cast them. So, stqage 1 at level 20 should be 60% chance, stage-2 should be 55% change, stage-3 should be 50% chance, and stage-4 should be 45% chance.
ALSO - the Animalistic Rampage - I was looking for a better willpower saving throw scheme - something where it's kind of within reason to make the save - if you completely develop as a dragon, without skipping levels, and have 20 manifester levels as a psion, with 20 spellcaster levels as a wizard. So, a 20 wizard/20 psion/10 Dragon (stage 1)/10 Dragon (stage 2), or level 60 character total, could potentially make a save on the will save (5% chance, a natural 20), to resist the animalistic rampage. Each level of the Stage 3 reduces this DC by 1, as the character goes up in level. Once they succeed on the save, they've made it through the animalistic rampage. However, if they fail, they cannot try again for 2d12 years (or something like that), and suffer the effects of it. People that rush the process, suffer the consiquences.
If you could get me a good DC scheme for that stage's class for this, I'd appreciate it, after all, you're setting other DC's anyway :P
And yes, I realize that a Psychic Warrior has a harder time making the spell, but an easier time surviving the spell. That was one of the intentions of my design
Why do Avangions not gain any Spell or Power Resistance while Dragons do? I do realize that the Avangion gains ability boosts, and huge saving throw bonuses, as well as their Globe of Invulnerability later on in the metamorphosis, but I felt that this was a huge ability they had in 2nd edition that seems oddly missed out here.
Also, while gaining huge bonuses to saving throws is good, some spells would still sneak through such as a fireball (assuming no globe of invul.) and deal tremendous amounts of damage to fledgling avangions. All those save partial or save 1/2 spells would still be able to pound on the avangion. Even a puny 3rd level defiler could hit him with certain spells which to me, is just wrong.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Just downloaded your Avangion rules, and while I know they are not exactly complete, I noticed a very disturbing special quality that seemed to be missing.
Why do Avangions not gain any Spell or Power Resistance while Dragons do? I do realize that the Avangion gains ability boosts, and huge saving throw bonuses, as well as their Globe of Invulnerability later on in the metamorphosis, but I felt that this was a huge ability they had in 2nd edition that seems oddly missed out here.
Also, while gaining huge bonuses to saving throws is good, some spells would still sneak through such as a fireball (assuming no globe of invul.) and deal tremendous amounts of damage to fledgling avangions. All those save partial or save 1/2 spells would still be able to pound on the avangion. Even a puny 3rd level defiler could hit him with certain spells which to me, is just wrong.
Umm.... because I forgot to get it in there
You're finding a few of the known errors in the Avangions I'm working on :P When it's done, they will be far harder to attack/effect with a spell or power, and will have a pretty decent defense against physical attacks as well.
Still working on it, but yea - you're right
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
ALSO - the Animalistic Rampage - I was looking for a better willpower saving throw scheme - something where it's kind of within reason to make the save - if you completely develop as a dragon, without skipping levels, and have 20 manifester levels as a psion, with 20 spellcaster levels as a wizard. So, a 20 wizard/20 psion/10 Dragon (stage 1)/10 Dragon (stage 2), or level 60 character total, could potentially make a save on the will save (5% chance, a natural 20), to resist the animalistic rampage. Each level of the Stage 3 reduces this DC by 1, as the character goes up in level. Once they succeed on the save, they've made it through the animalistic rampage. However, if they fail, they cannot try again for 2d12 years (or something like that), and suffer the effects of it. People that rush the process, suffer the consiquences.
If you could get me a good DC scheme for that stage's class for this, I'd appreciate it, after all, you're setting other DC's anyway :P
I am already working on this for us..... btw you pretty much have the same idea as me on this. wanna run one thing by you on the rampage though. I am looking at the time frame of it being (stage)d12 years (and this being the amount of time after failed subsequence checks as well using the system you already have of the decreasing by 10 each time.) and it is on both stage 3 and stage 4 spell (and possibly a check when you hit 3,6, and 9 levels on the stage 3 template class. All stage 3 checks will have the same DC (which would be 72 at stage 3, going up to 82 at stage 4. Although I am tempted to make it 76 and 88 to take into account boosts on fort save due to size increase.)
sorry it it taking a bit longer than expected. (been building new mitigating factors and balancing them.. (esp the template classes added as a mitigating.... by the way by making it a mitigating as I am it will give a valid alteratino to what would be needed to skip levels in the prestige classes.)
should have the final spells this evening for avangions at the very least.
Originally posted by seker
I am already working on this for us..... btw you pretty much have the same idea as me on this. wanna run one thing by you on the rampage though. I am looking at the time frame of it being (stage)d12 years (and this being the amount of time after failed subsequence checks as well using the system you already have of the decreasing by 10 each time.) and it is on both stage 3 and stage 4 spell (and possibly a check when you hit 3,6, and 9 levels on the stage 3 template class. All stage 3 checks will have the same DC (which would be 72 at stage 3, going up to 82 at stage 4. Although I am tempted to make it 76 and 88 to take into account boosts on fort save due to size increase.)
sorry it it taking a bit longer than expected. (been building new mitigating factors and balancing them.. (esp the template classes added as a mitigating.... by the way by making it a mitigating as I am it will give a valid alteratino to what would be needed to skip levels in the prestige classes.)
should have the final spells this evening for avangions at the very least.
Well, I didn't want the DC to automatically drop 10 each time any more. I want it to be something that those who are patient have a chance of succeeding on, those who wish to rush things, get caught up in it more likely.
Also - it's something from the 3rd template. It keeps affecting them until they get over it - even if they don't get over the rampage until after they are in the 4th stage, ala Borys. Possibly have the time increase by an additional d12 years if the individual hasn't overcome the animalistic rampage by stage 4, for between checks. IE: Stage-3 is every d12 years, but if they still are in it with stage-4, it becomes 2d12 years...
final version (basics) at casting 3rd stage spell. make will save DC 76 (taking into account the size changes) or go into animalistic rage for d12 years. At end of this time they make another check with DC (76-level in 3rd stage prestige class) failure indicates another d12 years in animalistic rage. If still failing after casts 4th stage the time frame for failure becomes 2d12
is that what you meant?
(btw once I have this finnished for these 2 classes, I should have enough mitigating factors for any kind of psionic enchantment and some new to balance out regular epic spellcasting as well...... we might fix epic spellcasting just creating these spells )
Originally posted by seker
kay got you, will build that in no problem.
final version (basics) at casting 3rd stage spell. make will save DC 76 (taking into account the size changes) or go into animalistic rage for d12 years. At end of this time they make another check with DC (76-level in 3rd stage prestige class) failure indicates another d12 years in animalistic rage. If still failing after casts 4th stage the time frame for failure becomes 2d12
is that what you meant?
Exactly what I meant. Cool, sounds great!
(btw once I have this finnished for these 2 classes, I should have enough mitigating factors for any kind of psionic enchantment and some new to balance out regular epic spellcasting as well...... we might fix epic spellcasting just creating these spells )
Coolness. There's been the additional, improved mitigating factors I've seen was needed, and I'd like to see the system end up being more flexible as well. One direction I was looking at was basically letting each of the things like range, duration, target (or area of effect), casting time, etc.all play parts in the spellcraft DC's - and smoother. We might just get that knocked out as well
What about:
Dragon (Stage 1): Dragon Initiate
Dragon (Stage 2): Dragon Ascendant
Dragon (Stage 3): Dragon Storm / Dragon of Fury
Dragon (Stage 4): Dragon of Tyr / Dragon King
Avangion (Stage 1): Avangion Ascesion
Avangion (Stage 2): Avangion Crysalis
Avangion (Stage 3): Avangion Apotheosis
Avangion (Stage 4): Lightbringer of Athas
Any other ideas for more compelling names for the class? I am sure there are better ones ...