So here's what I'm wondering. What sort of Greyhawk material would you want to see? How would it be done such that you'd be happy with it?
Second, adventures, good ones of decent length. I know Dungeon does them, but I'd really enjoy a good 50-70 pager like RttToEE except a bit more um...in line with the flavor I think GH should have (see below).
Third, I think GH should become the "mature" setting of D&D, like the darker more realistic world since they already have FR for high fantasy, and Ebberron is going to be a high fantasy/everything type setting. I think GH would make a perfect gritty setting to market for older people.
That's really what I'd like, oh and I wouldn't mind if they asked me to write some of the content too heh.
I know that this is not quite the same of having Greyhawk as a fully supported setting, but I think it is a reasonable compromise.
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625 ... GH Campaign Setting book organized like the FRCS. I love the FRCS, it has absolutely everything I ever wanted in a campaign setting except the actual setting isn't to my liking, but if they stole the table of contents from the FRCS and substituted GH content I'd love that... Third, I think GH should become the "mature" setting of D&D, like the darker more realistic world... I think GH would make a perfect gritty setting to market for older people...
Exactly what ColdPenguin said (almost). I'd take a Greyhawk Campaign Setting book in the tradition of the one for Forgotten Realms. Like James Ward's 1986 Greyhawk Adventures, but way expanded. Then, the supplements will be EVERYTHING by Carl Sargent, Anne Brown and (I dare say) Roger Moore.
And I really like the "darker side" idea, CP - good take. The only bad thing is I am one of those older people. Dang!
I must say, I like the idea of marketing Greyhawk as a gritty place.
I also like the idea of fleshing out the Baklunish. But how so? I've posted elsewhere that I would love to see a generic 3.5 Arabian Adventures. Having Al-Qadim as the featured setting would be cool, but I think using the Baklunish lands would be even better. Would that be the sort of thing you had in mind, with lots of flavorful crunch, or did you want more fluff?
(Edit: Just clarified some wording.)
- plus a quick mention of Names from the Past and biographies - for folks like Leomund, Galap-Dreidel, Kyuss and other luminaries who made Oerth what it is...
- PLUS adventures tied into some of these characters, such as a foray into the abandoned undersea fortress of Kwalish, a plot by House Eilserv, a conspiracy launched by cultists of Kyuss, and a quest to recover the bones of Lady Sharn to be canonized by the Heironean faith.
Boo-yah.
Just to play devil's advocate (after all, I started this thread because I wanted to know what people thought about this), what's wrong with using the fluff from LGG with the crunch from various supplements, such as Complete Warrior?
Whats wrong is its more expensive to be a GH fan. All you need to play FR is the supplements with the FR logo on them technically, whereas a hardcore GH fan must virtually buy everything in the catalogue just for a few vital pieces in each book.
I would like to see a general city supplement focusing in The City of Greyhawk as their main example
A book covering Greyhawk City to me would not be worthless but more like tiring. I am aware its the typical starting point for adventures, but to make a new splash on the scene, it would be fresh to see the campaign start out of a new city, exploiting a new corner of the Flanaess, like Irongate.
Instead of Nation-books, let's have City-books.
Each would offer an in-depth description of a city, and then explore the surrounding lands/country.
I could really use an Irongate, Rel Astra, Rel Mord, etc.. book!
Originally posted by Burgoyne
Seems logical. At least release a campaign booklet that gets us up to speed on what is going on while providing some crunch to go with our fluffy Greyhawk Gazeteer. Or release those nifty region specific manuals that they seem to be keen on over in the FR. I want to see some 3.5 edition Greyhawk art.
Ooo, I want the Sheldomar Valley supplement now, with a great portion of it devoted to the Yeomanry. :P~
Ooo, I want the Sheldomar Valley supplement now, with a great portion of it devoted to the Yeomanry
I know Keoland is a highly popular spot from the attention it has been given by fans/authors post-GH Wars. I could see this place winning if a vote was taken for a new base setting.
I could really use an Irongate, Rel Astra, Rel Mord, etc.. book!
From what I gather, there IS an Irongate gazetteer article coming soon. Dungeon I assume. Rel Astra would make for a good dark-gritty urban campaign. A sort of anti-GHC.
I think than an official supplement in file card format with separate cards for Ancient History, Recent History, Culture, Politics, Military & Major Organsiations, Geography, Locations, & NPCs for each country would be invaluable. Something in a similar format to the LGG Gazeteer but more easily updatable. Major Npc's could have their own cards, while minor ones could be listed in a card attached to the country in question. Ancient History, Geography, and Culture would need updating infrequently (barring another war) while Recent History, Politics, NPCs, and Locations could be kept up to date as new events, new modules, new locations, and new npcs are added as part of the ongoing campaign.
I think it would be a good way of keeping Living Greyhawk breathing for those of us who can't actually play in it.
Bugger to organise though and it's dependent cpntinued updates. I'm converting the existing data I have into 'resource cards', on my own computer which I can add to, alter, and update as events happen. Unfortunately, I find it difficult to track down what has actually happened without scouring the forums. For example, I know something has happened in Tenh but I have no clue what it is.
I would like to see, ala FR (I know, please don't label me a heretic), in depth treatment of the various geographical areas, with good maps and more than the bare-bones geopolitical descriptions. I own (or have owned)practically every GH product since 1st ed. and have rarely been satisfied with the detailing of the world. GH products try and cram too much broad material in one book rather than spacing it out over multiple products like FR. I'd gladly shell out the cash for a world detailed like FR (not FR since I don't like the overall feel of the campaign, but I have to admire the wealth of information available for DMs and players).
I'd agree that a "Who's Who of Oerth" would be great. There's so much material that's already been produced, but it's getting harder to find (unless you want to buy it in a .pdf file). Granted, some of it will be contradictory, but I think it would be fine to just present the differing versions without trying to define which is "canon." I'd love to see some of what's already out there catalogued and made into an easy reference source. Along that same line, I'd love to see the old adventures reprinted (and maybe even updated to 3.5).
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Along that same line, I'd love to see the old adventures reprinted (and maybe even updated to 3.5)
I'll second that IF they are updated to 3.5 but NOT changed into another "Return to ..." c***
We got enough of those as it is ...
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
... is if each chapter or section had a sidebar called "Alternate Oerth's" where they can present different paths history might have taken ... That way, people who hate all the changes made to GH over the years could still enjoy the book and find something useful.
That is a fantastic idea, CP. I like that a lot. Contemporary products do have sidebars with alternatives to varying degrees. Or, how about an Unearthed Arcana for Greyhawk. A book of alternate themes, rules, histories, etcetera - but exclusively Greyhawk specific.
pauln6--I'm not sure if I'd like the card format. It reminds me too much of the Monstrous Compendium from 2nd ed, and I didn't like that.
Originally posted by mortellan
Whats wrong is its more expensive to be a GH fan. All you need to play FR is the supplements with the FR logo on them technically, whereas a hardcore GH fan must virtually buy everything in the catalogue just for a few vital pieces in each book.
That's a slightly flawed argument.
It's logically and safely assumed that anyone buying 3e products, be they Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, is a 3e player, and therefore buying up all the core books anyway. In that eventuality, the FR players are getting milked a lot worse than we are.
*******************
Yes, I wasn't a great fan of those Monstrous Compendiums either. Too big & unwieldy for general use when playing the game. Still, I'm just looking for a format that's updatable without full reprints where you don't have to go hunting through a dozen books looking for that little bit of a write up you need.
If the supplement was on tough or laminated card the older stuff wouldn't get so tatty. And the old Compendiums were never updated properly so you ended up with cards all out of sync.
If its done right you throw away the old cards and insert new ones so no more hunting is necessary. I think it's the best way to keep the gazeteers fresh and in the right order w/o reprinting the same info over and over again.
You would only need an annual update for retired LGG modules with a (suitably vague) 'official' write up of the mods in the Recent History card section for each country. Plus updated cards for any countries where new locations or NPCs have been detailed in the mods or other 'official' articles.
If they threw in spare cards or online templates fans could even add extra cards suited to their own campaign in the same format.
I think it would be kewl.
Of course I would like to see the return of the Living Greyhawk Journal as it's own magazine so updated material could be found in one magazine. I don't like looking up information in small bites through several Dragon and Dungeon mags, but of course I am happy that we at least have something new getting into our starving 'hawker hands. Why couldn't more Greyhawk Journal info be offered in PDF form or posted on Paizo and Living Greyhawk sites?
Lastly I would like to have gazeteers on all of Oerth just like you see in the new 3.0-3.5 Ravenloft books sold now. The Ravenloft gazeteers gives you all you would want to know about every land in the dreaded realms. Once again if WotC doesn't think they will gain enough profit from this undertaking, why not release in PDF form? Wouldn't it be great to have information on every single populated area represented on that new Greyhawk Map Folio at your fingertips? Oh and don't forget that monthly Greyhawk Journal you get that updates the insane 'hawkers we are on any changes as time goes by.;)
Originally posted by Kingdom Of Sunndi
Once again if WotC doesn't think they will gain enough profit from this undertaking, why not release in PDF form?
I think .pdf files are a great idea. Material at Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press is going gnagbusters in .pdf format. Most stuff is between $2 and $9 a file. I have bought most of my Malhavoc material in .pdf. Then, I print what I need, if printing is necessary. Everything in Living Greyhawk is issued in the same format.
1. LGJ complilations as I hate flipping though mags to reseach what I need. New one every year please.
2. A 'Marklands' type accessory for the Keoish states
3. A proper release of Ivid, updated too please
Cost to WotC would be a bag of doughnuts and a cherry coke in relative terms but I'd have all of the major states detailed. Then all I need is a month off work to read it all
An occassional "Volo's" style travel guide.
In lieu of that some "Basic Fleshing" out of the Major Greyhawk Kingdoms and Countries incorporating and expanding on 2E material like the Marklands and 3E with the Greyhawk Player's Guide and Living Greyhawk Gazetter.
Just devoting one or two pages (I wouldn't have a problem with three or four either) in Dragon or Dungeon (GH adventure) every issue or every other issue.
As I mentioned earlier Nyrond and Furyondy (one of my favorite settings) had some fleshing out in the Marklands listing some history, nobility and some cities. Each has a populace over 1,000,000.
How about a brief breakdown on some of the other nobility and gentry that wasn't addressed. There are _____ great noble houses and ______ noble houses and give the house names for the majority.
There are ______ landed gentry and give some "typical" examples. Typically a Level 4-6 NPC managing 400 - 1,000 people: a village or two, or a few hamlets or several thorps and a few or several square miles.
Expound on some of the major cities "DEMOGRAPHICS" as per The Silver Marches entries. I'd really like to see that on Greyhawk, Chendl (Would like seeing populace doubled so it is a Metropolis (It's his land and one of the 3 tax sources for the King according to the Marklands), Rel Mord, Niole Dra and Kalstrand along with capitals of provinces.
Simple one or two page black and white or basic color maps with villages and greater populace centers for a country.
There were slightly more than 200 Furyondy Knights of the Hart before the Greyhawk wars and struggling to reach 170 after the wars with a level requirement of 3 (Greyhawk Player's Guide) despite a populace of over a million while Gran March had 6,500 Knights of the Watch with a level requirement of 3 before the wars and a population of a quarter of a million.
So what is the most common order or what are the most common orders of knighthood in Furyondy?
My pet peeve is PRCs. WOTC develops a PRC like Knights of the Chalice in Defenders of the Faith and Complete Warrior saying this is an organization of more than several thousand individuals.
9 Masters Level 10+ each in charge of 9 Chalice Marshals Level 7-10 who are each in charge of 9 Chalice Commanders Level 5-8 who are each in charge of 9 chalice sergeants Level 3 - 6 (that's 6,561 people before any recruits) with an 8% attrition rate annually requiring 524 replacements (before recruits).
How about some common low level (1-4) "PRCs" with a few additional skill points and a bonus feat at first level for Border Patrol, Army/City Guardsmen/Officers.
Giving Graduates of one of the Magical Universities something like: The Greyhawk Method Feat, Nexus Feat or Sagacious Society Feat from recent dragon articles like issue #319 for their first wizard or sorcerer level?
According to demographics over 90% of the populace live in villages, hamlets or thorps. So where are all these high level heros coming from? Demographically they are not supported.
That being said, I have never played in GH, but I would love to do so.
Originally posted by castlemike
Never understood why Prince Thrommel wasn't recovered with the resources available to King Belvor and Lady Jolene....
Thrommel's fate is covered in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. However, if you don't have that product, you'd never know what happened to him. The same is certainly true of other characters and other products. Sure would be nice to have some kind of encyclopedic reference covering every NPC in the Flanaess...
What are the odds of seeing a Greyhawk Encyclopedia?
Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Project Lives!
Consider you are the King of Furyondy one of the four or five most powerful kingdoms in the world with the resources that commands from a country with a population over 1,000,000 and allies like Veluna (Canon of Veluna, Lady Jolene daughter of The Plar, The Plar), High Folk and the Shield Lands your only son and heir (a Knight of the Hart) is missing and engaged to the daughter of the Plar of Veluna.
Supposedly these people want the marraige to happen. Could your PC recover the prince as the king, a cleric of Heironeous, Rao or another power, or a Knight of the Hart with some of the resources available to these groups? What kind of boon could one of the Seven Families get from the king for recovering his son?
The Knights of the Hart or Knights of The Holy Shielding would certainly benefit if they found the missing prince and they both have many allies and resources. All the powerful and wealthy folk and mercenaries that want to be enobled or richly rewarded. Clergy of lesser known or poorly esteemed faiths like Wee Jas in Furyondy and Veluna could get a foot in the door. Why aren't they sponsoring communes and mercenary companies?
How is a simple Demi-God like Iuz blocking an Intermediate (Heironeous) and Greater Power (Rao) among other questioned Powers when according to game mechanics from 2E to 3.5 and Deities and Demigods he can't and on top of that you mention having wandering paladins checking out the temple of elemental evil? (Putting in sensing zones)
Remember the basic rewards for each rescuer: Knighthood or Elder of Veluna and Furyondy with silver star badge of Veluna and the gold crown of Furyondy honors, +1 ring and 2,000 PP with additional magical rewards to the two most helpful and the broad sword Scather to whoever helped recover Fragarach.
Like many would like to see more material about the setting.
Originally posted by caeruleus
Just to play devil's advocate (after all, I started this thread because I wanted to know what people thought about this), what's wrong with using the fluff from LGG with the crunch from various supplements, such as Complete Warrior?
I must say, I like the idea of marketing Greyhawk as a gritty place.
I also like the idea of fleshing out the Baklunish. But how so? I've posted elsewhere that I would love to see a generic 3.5 Arabian Adventures. Having Al-Qadim as the featured setting would be cool, but I think using the Baklunish lands would be even better. Would that be the sort of thing you had in mind, with lots of flavorful crunch, or did you want more fluff?
(Edit: Just clarified some wording.)
I also like the idea of marketing Greyhawk as the dark, gritty setting and would love to see the Baklunish areas expanded. I don't really like the way the terms fluff and crunch are used, though. To me, the meat of the product is the background material. That's what I can use to make my campaign feel more real. When lots of game statistics are provided for the various NPCs and such, it does not actually cut down on my work. I don't use 3.5e (or DnD for that matter), but even if I did, I would still have to tinker with those stats and adjust them in order to surprise my players. So I want background material, details of cities and cultures, and adventure hooks.
Originally posted by Adhevan
I don't really like the way the terms fluff and crunch are used, though. To me, the meat of the product is the background material. That's what I can use to make my campaign feel more real.
I'd agree with that. The terms "fluff" and "crunch" connote certain value judgments about the described content: "fluff" being extraneous stuff, of little value; "crunch" being the really important stuff. I would value them exactly opposite to those connotations - I couldn't care less about getting yet another batch of new prestige classes, feats, spells, etc., but I would love to get more descriptive information about Greyhawk people, places and things.
Originally posted by Adhevan
To me, the meat of the product is the background material. That's what I can use to make my campaign feel more real. When lots of game statistics are provided for the various NPCs and such, it does not actually cut down on my work. I don't use 3.5e (or DnD for that matter), but even if I did, I would still have to tinker with those stats and adjust them in order to surprise my players.
So I want background material, details of cities and cultures, and adventure hooks.
I agree 100%, particularly fleshing out the cities description with a theme and NPC character demographics helps makes it more real but if it doesn't work for your campaign you can tweak or ignore it.
I'd like to see Furyondy Wizard Demographics before and after the war after reading the Marklands.
I'd like the larger countries with populations of 500,000 + fleshed out a bit more. If there are 14 or 26 noble houses name the majority, outline their holdings on a simple black and white 8" by 11" map, (Like Verbobonc did in Living Greyhawk).
How about a short paragraph. House leader is Sir Paulus, Baron, LN, F5, St 14, Wis 14, Char 14 mid 50s allied with...., works against......, strong/middling or weak supporter ruler, his heir is an idiot Int 8, Wis 8, St 16 F2 or his only heir is his willful CG beautiful daughter Int 15, Char 14 Wiz 2
I really like how they break down the NPC demographics for the cities in the population descriptor in FR accessories like he Silver Marches. It helps give the PCs a measuring stick of where they stand on the hero or anti-hero meter. It's 300+ miles to a city where somebody may be able to raise dead and you can't teleport.
Back on topic though. I would not mind seeing a Greyhawk Gazetter in the format that the FRCS is in but I would be very wary of NPC write ups and such. The thing that turned me cold on FR in the first place was that it seemed like every other page there was a new kick butt NPC with 35 character levels that could hand my PCs their tails. I like the idea that in GH YOU are the heroes not just the lackeys of the "real" heroes.
What ever is released I think the focus should be on continuity. For instance, in the TOEE novel Elmo dies and Prince Thrommel is released. In RTTOEE Elmo is alive and Thrommel is a vampire? I would kind of like some baseline to be established so when my players and I sit down at the table we are all on the same page.
As for the Greyhawk novels, I'd agree that it's clear they weren't written with continuity in mind (which, I think, the FR and Dragonlance novels probably are). I've read the "Temple of Elemental Evil" novel, and I'm running my PCs through RttToEE, so I noticed the discrepancies with Elmo and Thrommel, too. I prefer to think of them as alternate Greyhawks and let them exist side by side rather than get too upset about the lack of continuity, and I think that's how all novels should be viewed. Otherwise, the PCs may feel like they can't do anything important, because that's not how it happened in the books.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
The terms "fluff" and "crunch" connote certain value judgments about the described content: "fluff" being extraneous stuff, of little value; "crunch" being the really important stuff.
Good point. I didn't intend those connotations when I used the terms, but they're definitely there. I'll endeavor to avoid using these terms in this way.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
As for the Greyhawk novels, I'd agree that it's clear they weren't written with continuity in mind (which, I think, the FR and Dragonlance novels probably are). I've read the "Temple of Elemental Evil" novel, and I'm running my PCs through RttToEE, so I noticed the discrepancies with Elmo and Thrommel, too. I prefer to think of them as alternate Greyhawks and let them exist side by side rather than get too upset about the lack of continuity, and I think that's how all novels should be viewed. Otherwise, the PCs may feel like they can't do anything important, because that's not how it happened in the books.
Yes, while the NPCs in the Forgotten Realms take center-stage because they're ultra-powerful, NPCs in Dragonlance take center-stage because the novels have taken precedence over the game.
Mind you, I'm a fan of Dragonlance in addition to being a Greyhawk fan. But what I said of Dragonlance does happen to be true so far. Although, in all fairness, the claim is that they're moving away from that with the new adventure modules that are being released.
But enough of Dragonlance. Yes, I'd also like to see Greyhawk NPC stats. Not necessarily in the detail given to the NPCs in FRCS, but a little bit more than just race, class, and level.
I put Undermountain under Greyhawk in one campaign which was a blast and moved it to Chendl for another figuring there are always some planning mistakes. Also made it one on the reasons the 7 Families were willing to let the King hold a little more land of his own (according to Marklands he technically owns all the land in Furyondy but has very little of his own) also gave the the Nobility in Furyondy another reason for disliking Wizards and Wizardry as per the Marklands. The crazy wizard under the capital and the trickle down theory. Really now being a farmer, craftsman, merchant..... was good enough for me and your grandparents. If that's not good enough for you when you grow up. I'd recommend the Clergy and if that's not what you want really now what would you rather be a powerful, respected Knight of The Hart or a crazy old wizard who lives underground in the sewers with monsters and adventurers?
Back to original topic almost any new material is appreciated if not always used or incorporated into a campaign unless packaged in an adventure.
I hardly can think of a way to improve the LGG book unless WOTC is willing to expand the page count. I too would love to see new Greyhawk material in print but I just doubt it will ever happen outside a few sparse magazine articles.
In a perfect world, I suppose I would like to see:
1. Hardcover reprint of LGG with more pages. Keeping the rules lite or no new rules format.
2. A "Player's Guide to Greyhawk" book that contains the FRCS type rules that everyone is asking for. I want them too, just not at the cost of campaign content in the main book.
3. Regional Gazzetters covering three or four nations each.
4. Greyhawk-specific adventures.
See, it is a short list in my opinion. All we need is a solid campaign setting (just like the LGG book), a FRCS rules-type book for players, and some gazzetters and adventures.
Good Gaming.
Originally posted by Roger_Bert
In a perfect world, I suppose I would like to see:
1. Hardcover reprint of LGG with more pages. Keeping the rules lite or no new rules format.
And a better campaign map.
2. A "Player's Guide to Greyhawk" book that contains the FRCS type rules that everyone is asking for. I want them too, just not at the cost of campaign content in the main book.
I'd not purchase that, but I'm sure many people would.
3. Regional Gazzetters covering three or four nations each.
I would love to see entire books full of background on places like Ahlissa or Keoland, especially if such books fleshed out some of the cities like Niole Dra or Rel Astra.
4. Greyhawk-specific adventures.
Doesn't Dungeon magazine already publish adventures for Greyhawk?
-Adhevan
Doesn't Dungeon magazine already publish adventures for Greyhawk?
-Adhevan
Not specifically, no. Dungeon magazine prints adventures set in the default D&D world, which happens to be Greyhawk, but they aren't specifically written for the world.
I get the feeling that requests for Greyhawk adventures are really requests for a series published in book format by WotC with continuity, which meshes with the background of the setting.
Originally posted by UnderToad
I disagree. There has been more attention given to Greyhawk since Erik Mona's arrival at Dungeon magazine, and the most recent issues bear that out. Look at Hardby, for example. The previously undetailed city gets a full write-up in Dungeon and then, before you know it, we have an adventure set in Hardby. Sure, it only takes a few key locations into account (the harbour and the lighthouse), but it's still Greyhawk worthy. I know a few friends who are already planning to run the adventure. It deson't have to every fix encounter to a specific location and a specific persona to qualify as Greyhawk. Does it?
Not at all. But in my opinion an adventure set in Geoff shouldn't run with conflicting background information to other adventures set in Geoff.
I get the feeling that Dungeon contributors do a hasty (or not so hasty) re-write of their adventures o fi with the information in either the Dungeons and Dragons Gazetteer or the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer before they submit them, changing the names of places and swapping for the most appopriate gods out of the core pantheon.
Unfortunately here in Tasmania the Paizo magazines arrive on the shelf anywhere up to two and a half months after the cover date, so I am a little behind on the most recent developments. I really appreciate the Greyhawk articles that do crop up.