Originally posted by Knight of the Lily
Tell me how Lord Soth can dieing,when all Souls keep at krynn. When he die, he go in takhisi army of souls. I think he is now a other undead or he is the same undead.
Takhisis' army of souls was released from its bondage once the gods had returned and Takhisis was defeated. Soth's soul, like many thousands of others, was free to join the progression of souls and pass into the hereafter, which is the normal way things work.
The real question I had was, if Takhisis was rendered mortal, what happened to her soul when she died? Where did it go? Very mysterious.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Knight of the Lily
I have read the book. But i cant believe that mighty Person of death or undeath lost his Power so fast.
That's the nature of such a curse. When you're freed from it, even if you gained substantial power or ability from it, it's gone when it is lifted. Soth became a man, not a death knight, and once the Keep crashed down upon him he was as dead as any other normal man would be in similar circumstances.
Cheers,
Cam
For those wondering if that means no more death knights, that's also not a problem! Lord Ausric Krell (in the DLCS) is a character in Margaret's novel AMBER & ASHES, and will probably play a role in future game products. The former Knight of the Lily has some of the same powers, but is very different than Soth in both appearance and personality.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by jechambers
Lord Ausric Krell (in the DLCS) is a character in Margaret's novel AMBER & ASHES, and will probably play a role in future game products.
If that's the case...I think it's important that his stats be revisited...because what he's done (ie. create skelletal warriors) does not coinside with his level/stats/abilities of Death Knights.
As he stands now...he's too low a level to have created either his dragon or the minotaur (sorry...can't remember either one's name) or any other skelletal warrior for that matter.
Just FYI. I'm sure it has been noticed by the SP folks...but in case it wasn't, I wanted to make sure it was pointed out.
Thanks.
Originally posted by GrandBonum
Now that´s bad news! Raistlin, Thakisis, Soth... taking away all cool villains and replacing them with new but uninteresting ones like Mina isn´t a good idea. Guess I simply put Soth back into Ravenloft for my campaign. Thanks for the answer though, Nived!
uh, raist, taky, and soth were great villains twenty years ago. don't you think it's time the setting got some new heroes and bad guys?
Originally posted by Brimstone
If that's the case...I think it's important that his stats be revisited...because what he's done (ie. create skelletal warriors) does not coinside with his level/stats/abilities of Death Knights.
As he stands now...he's too low a level to have created either his dragon or the minotaur (sorry...can't remember either one's name) or any other skelletal warrior for that matter.
Just FYI. I'm sure it has been noticed by the SP folks...but in case it wasn't, I wanted to make sure it was pointed out.
Thanks.
It was one of the things that slipped through when the book when through development with our colleagues over at WotC. Certain abilities were changed to reflect a creature of specific level, but Krell never changed with them. It may be the description that changes rather than his stats, though, based on what I know of the story so far.
But enough spoilers from me! Wait until August and read it for yourselves.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Either way, I am going to perform Chinese nipple torture on you until you spill the beans...
BTW, I absolutely love that Krell is entering the DL Novel Canon, I really found his story interesting. Now, it's just a matter of getting him off the friggin island.
Originally posted by jechambers
It may be the description that changes rather than his stats, though, based on what I know of the story so far.
Really? That's too bad...I really liked the idea of there being a blue dragon skelletal warrior.
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Originally posted by talinthas
uh, raist, taky, and soth were great villains twenty years ago. don't you think it's time the setting got some new heroes and bad guys?
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Of course, it´s always good to bring on some new villains and heroes. However, getting rid of nearly ALL important bad guys without presenting equally fascinating new ones is another thing. Without the aid of Takhisis, Mina isn´t a real threat. I guess, Weis/Hickman wanted some kind of tabula rasa.
Of course, I may have some of the details skewwed, but it's still my opinion that Soth was and is the best Death Knight in the Dragonlance setting.
I agree that we haven't really seen any bad guys yet that have stepped in and presented the same ominous threat and awe that the likes of Raistlin, Soth or Takhisis presented. Even the dragon overlords are gone save the last 2, and from what we've seen, they are more or less isolationists and don't want to overstep their boundaries anymore since being cowed with the return of the gods. Even before that though, they weren't as ambitious or truly as dangerous as Malys, Beryl, Brindle or Skie. Ah well, just my $.02
I think those who read AMBER & ASHES will enjoy Krell for completely different reasons than they liked Soth. And the death knight has some great potential in campaigns, both on and off Storm's Keep.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by jechambers
Lord Krell was never intended to be the same kind of powerful, romantic figure as Soth. While both are death knights, there the similarities end. While Soth was a tragic figure, a good man brought down by his passions, Krell is a vile betrayer and has always been evil.
I think those who read AMBER & ASHES will enjoy Krell for completely different reasons than they liked Soth. And the death knight has some great potential in campaigns, both on and off Storm's Keep.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
But it's the romantic notion that made characters like Soth so great and epic in the first place. Whenever he made an appearance in a story, part of me respected him, the other part was like "holy crap, it's Soth, someone's gonna get messed up". His noble background and past suggested he was capable of reigning in his evil, so you never truly knew what his plans were. But he was a creature of great power and evil, so he had the capacity for doing horrible things at the same time. This was VERY true with Raistlin. One minute, he's plotting the destruction of all, the next he's making a big sacrifice for others. A character like Ausric, being a truly evil, betraying SOB holds none of the romantic ideals that made his evil predecessors so great. Someone goes to Storm's Keep (why?) and he kills them and raises them. So they stay on the island. Not a lot of grey area there with Ausric which makes his character kinda 2 dimensional, and not all that interesting in comparison to Soth and others IMO.
I truly hope something happens with Ausric to make him more interesting, but the way his character is currently portrayed, he seems like nothing more than Dragonlance's answer to the Bermuda Triangle. People go out there, and they wind up missing, and never heard from again.
Originally posted by frostdawn
I truly hope something happens with Ausric to make him more interesting, but the way his character is currently portrayed, he seems like nothing more than Dragonlance's answer to the Bermuda Triangle. People go out there, and they wind up missing, and never heard from again.
I think this is part of why Jamie's encouraging you to suspend judgment until Margaret's new book comes out. I like the idea of a vile betrayer, since to be honest there haven't been nearly enough of those in the setting (and Hiddukel's doing all the work, which is just not fair on the guy). I've injected vile betrayal into my own campaign with some success so far, so it's pleasing to see it.
On the other hand, I think you're absolutely right that it's nice to have characters of epic tragedy and passion in the setting, too. There's plenty of room for them to crop up in the near future, one imagines - with the resolution of the War of Souls, it's quite a turbulent period. An elf would be a good choice, as would Dauroth of the ogre titans, who seems pretty much an obsessive psychopathic megalomaniac, which helps to fit the bill.
More villainy!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by frostdawn
But it's the romantic notion that made characters like Soth so great and epic in the first place. Whenever he made an appearance in a story, part of me respected him, the other part was like "holy crap, it's Soth, someone's gonna get messed up". His noble background and past suggested he was capable of reigning in his evil, so you never truly knew what his plans were. But he was a creature of great power and evil, so he had the capacity for doing horrible things at the same time. This was VERY true with Raistlin. One minute, he's plotting the destruction of all, the next he's making a big sacrifice for others. A character like Ausric, being a truly evil, betraying SOB holds none of the romantic ideals that made his evil predecessors so great. Someone goes to Storm's Keep (why?) and he kills them and raises them. So they stay on the island. Not a lot of grey area there with Ausric which makes his character kinda 2 dimensional, and not all that interesting in comparison to Soth and others IMO.
I truly hope something happens with Ausric to make him more interesting, but the way his character is currently portrayed, he seems like nothing more than Dragonlance's answer to the Bermuda Triangle. People go out there, and they wind up missing, and never heard from again.
If we had tried to create another death knight with a romantic, conflicted past then he would be a Soth clone. Characters who have already been "done" before hold little interest for me.
My own opinion, too, is that a character's popularity shouldn't mean that he lives forever. From a pure business point of view, Margaret could have kept Raistlin alive and churn a new novel out every year--but from a story point of view that is not nearly as satisfying. Soth was very cool, and perhaps no villain will ever be quite like him. But his day is done.
Perhaps you'll like Lord Krell in the new novel, but perhaps not. But hopefully you'll wait and read the novel before you decide!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I mean that Lord Soth ist not more a death Knight, but just a Knight haunt.
Originally posted by jechambers
If we had tried to create another death knight with a romantic, conflicted past then he would be a Soth clone. Characters who have already been "done" before hold little interest for me.
My own opinion, too, is that a character's popularity shouldn't mean that he lives forever. From a pure business point of view, Margaret could have kept Raistlin alive and churn a new novel out every year--but from a story point of view that is not nearly as satisfying. Soth was very cool, and perhaps no villain will ever be quite like him. But his day is done.
Perhaps you'll like Lord Krell in the new novel, but perhaps not. But hopefully you'll wait and read the novel before you decide!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Not a prob Jamie, and I agree with you, a character's popularity should not mean that they are kept around forever either, less they start to take on a cheesy quality. (then again, Soth was around for hundreds of years, and was still cool, but I digress ;))
Ausric may have some big things going on in the future, but so far, what we've seen of him isn't a whole lot. I'm not really looking for another death knight like Soth persay, though I can see where one could interpret that from the context of my earlier posts. All I'm saying is I want to see villains that are deeper character wise, characters that you want to see foiled by the good guys, because you know if they have their way, things will be really bad for everyone, but at the same time, you don't want them destroyed because a part of us deep down inside have a fondness for the character. The blood thirsty, megalomaniacal, back stabbing, unreasoning bad guys don't evoke the same contradictory feelings that characters like Soth and Raist did. The bloodthirsty thug types I actually want to see die in the stories. When the bad guys devolve to this state without any of the romanticism that made the series great IMO, then the bad guys become stale. Unfortunately, the good guys start to become the same, because they don't seem as heroic if they aren't fighting epic/romantic bad guys.
It's not my intention to sound argumentative or pessimistic, I just want the style of bad guys there used to be. Not only not, but the more diabolical the bad guys are, the more heroic the good guys seem in comparison.
How many people were as tied to Dhamon, Rig, Blister, Feril, Groller, Shaon, Jasper and Fury as they were to say Tanis, Flint, Tas, Goldmoon, Riverwind, Laurana, Tika, Caramon, and Raistlin? I'm sure they have a fan following, but I would dare to wager they aren't anywhere near as popular or well liked as the classics. How many bad guys did they actually fight that you could find yourself rooting for on some level, even albeit on a subconscious level the way the Heroes of the Lance did? They caused indirect trouble for Dragon Overlords, and fought some thugs and dragonspawn. By and large, that was about it. Laurana and Riverwind actually engaged the Overlords face to face. Even dying they were more epic and to me, heroic than their successors because of it.
I had emotional ties to the Heroes of the Lance. When Sturm and Flint died, *thumps chest* right here man, right here. The same with the other HotL. When Shaon died, I didn't feel anything. When Jasper died? A slight twinge since he was Flint's nephew, other than that, nothing. No real connection. That is what I crave. If the new stories provide that, I couldn't be happier.:D
Originally posted by frostdawn
How many people were as tied to Dhamon, Rig, Blister, Feril, Groller, Shaon, Jasper and Fury as they were to say Tanis, Flint, Tas, Goldmoon, Riverwind, Laurana, Tika, Caramon, and Raistlin? I'm sure they have a fan following, but I would dare to wager they aren't anywhere near as popular or well liked as the classics.
That might be the case, but I bet it's more than you might think (they are Best Selling books, after all).
I don't know...I understand where you're coming from...but some of us (myself included) did connect with the 5th Age characters. I connected with the original characters too...but in a different way...it was a different time of my life. I guess I just got lucky that Chronicles and DoaNA hit me at times when I think I could relate to them both the most.
The hopelessness of the early 5th Age was quite smothering...and this small band of heroes that beat up, pushed around, all around abused continued to push forward, to fight on, to not give up hope. That was inspiring. (I will agree with you on Shaon's death, though...I didn't like her as a "person" very much anyway...heh heh).
Then the Dhamon Saga comes along...and takes these characters to a whole 'nother level. You see that Dhamon did lose hope, which is a hard thing to watch. You root for him, especially once Rig and Fiona show up...you hope that they can help him back to where he was before Malys had her way with him. But after a while...you start getting sick of his attitude, and don't know what to think anymore. The Dhamon Saga was quite the emotional roller coaster for me. Then Fetch dies and that really sucked. Personally...that was a hard one for me...I really liked the little guy. But the heardest deaths in the Dragonlance world for me, personally, would be Rig and Fiona's. (although I was robbed of the chance to know if Sturm's death would have affected me at all). But those were hard core.
The problem with the HotL deaths (most of them) are that the timeline has advanced so far...it's almost silly for them to still be living...then it becomes a dis-service to the character to keep them around. It's unfortunate that they all don't get heroic deaths like Sturm or Riverwind or Jasper or Laurana...but it makes the world that much more real for me...if not sucky (in a realistic sorta "life sucks sometimes" way).
Oh yeah...that reminds me...Laurana's death was the hardest death in the DL saga for me. Then Rig and Fiona are about even. Riverwind and Laurana and Sturm all had the most powerful deaths, I think (although Goldmoon's original "death" would have been on par with those if it had been allowed to stick)...but Riverwind's wasn't hard to take...it was more like being proud of him (if'n you take my meaning). Laurana and Goldmoon's (original) were hard...and Sturm's I don't know about because I was informed about it long before I read it.
Okay...now I've gone way off topic...so I'll end this now.
For the idea that all heroic characters must die in brutal combat, I have to disagree. While it would be nice for everyone to go out in a blaze of glory, it's not always what happens. Lord Soth's original death (where he became a death knight) was during a fire raging in Dargaard Keep. His final death was also there, and some how appropriate. Tanis died in combat, but stabbed in the back by an anonymous foe, a testament that not every hero dies with glory. Poor Flint expired because of a heart condition, and could not even make it to the final hour with his companions. Caramon also died of a heart attack, shocked at the sight of someone who should not be there.
Some fans may feel that the more mundane deaths to stack up to the exciting ones, but Flint's goodbye in Dragons of Spring Dawning touched me more than many heroes' deaths I've read in other novels.
Back to games (which is on-topic!), most characters die in combat or some dangerous situation just because of the nature of the game. (There aren't any die-of-a-heart-attack rules in D&D 3rd Edition.) Heroic deaths are more the norm.
Just a few heavily-scattered thoughts...
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
here is a man that has for all his life lived the code and the measure, even though he is not a fully fledged knight. but to him that didn't make a difference. then when he finally sees the truth about the knighthood, the poor man is gutted. here he is living his own form of truth, and then to have that truth thrown in his face as a joke, must have made him very angry.
at the high clerist tower, where the spirital heart of the knighthood is supossed to reside, there is nothing but political intrigue. so for sturm he finds that there is no reason for him to continue, this man's dream has not only been broken, but has been picked up shattered and stomped on, he has nothing but shame for his fellow knights. when he sees the dragonarmies coming he sees a chance to die, like his hero, huma.
but the way that it was written touched something deep in my heart. for most of the chronicals i followed sturm, he was one of my favourites, and the tenderness of the words and the sheer simplicity of his death brought home the power of his life.
now in contrast to sturms death, the life of caramon and tanis and riverwind, brings the importance of sturms decision to me. his death allows those others of the HotL to have a full and happy life. the only downpart is that sturm wasn't around for flints farwell, but it had to happen that way.
it also made me thought, that out of all the other fantasy books i had read, that perhaps this time the good guys don't win.
as for villians, my favourite is verminaard. at the end of Dragons of autum twilight when verminaard battles sturm, tanis, and caramon, he quickly and ruthlessly takes two of them out of the battle, all calmly and cooly. but that is what a villian is spose to do. and then just before he dies you get a glimpse of his fear when takhisis abandons him.
and lord soth was the best undead i have ever read about, during the test of the twins book, his assault on palanthas was daunting. he could have taken the city by himself, yet he left when he got kitiaras soul.
he gave up on his vengence for love.
anywho i've gone on long enough about this. :D
I'll extrapolate on the Sturm entry so I don't seem like some kinda bandwagon jumper...
I hated Sturm.
He was quite possibly the fictional character I dislike the most. When he died, I jumped up and down for joy. I danced. I sang. I called all my friends and did my rendition of "Ding Dong the Douchebag's Dead". It was one of the happiest moments of my life.
Then I found out other people actually LIKED Sturm, and that put a damper on my dancing. Mostly out of confusion, however. I disliked Sturm with the same fury that many people dislike Kender. I disliked him moreso than most people dislike pineapple suppositories.
The ironic thing is, I liked Steel. He just seemed like a more "real" person to me. Sturm was just 2 dimensional and boring.
*shrug* I guess I'm the only one who doesn't like him, though. Oh well, more party for me.
Back on topic, I'm glad Soth finally died. He earned it. He's survived the horrors of Ravenloft (though not according to revisionist history), the Abyss, and Kitiara. He's seen enough. It was his time.
-TRRW
"We do not mourn the loss of those that die fulfilling their destiny".
When I read the books at 11, (which was 11 years ago for those who wish to know my age) I too was touched by his death. But at the same time, I wasn't that sad, or outraged as some people were, and the very reason for that is that he died fulfilling that destiny. A true knight. Did I cry? Like a baby... but not because it was sad.
Sturm realized that his strict adherence of the Measure, and the knighthood that he had been dreaminging of becoming was found wanting. He realized that everything that he'd been living up to at that point had been meaningless. This was his greatest fear, and was played on in an attempt to get him to fail. But he made a decision. His death would not be meaningless. It would buy time for Laurance to use the Orb, and he would live up the true measure of a knight.. and that was the Code.
His selfless sacrifice united an increasingly divided knighthood on the common bond of what it truly means to be a knight. And that is what turned the tides of the War of the Lance. I don't see how someone could not like Sturm.
So is Soth's death such a bad thing? No. Why? Well.. he was cursed. A curse placed on him, so that he would relive his mistakes over and over again. As it's already been mentioned, this curse was placed on him by his lover and the pantheon. But not out just of spite, or hatred (disregarding the evil deities... who for the most part are jerks). By being cursed, he had the option of doing incredible evil, which he did time and again. But he also had the capacity to learn from his mistakes, and in the end atone. So when I read of his death, I was overjoyed, for he was now free.
This is what makes the Dragonlance setting so great. It's not like Forgotten Realms where characters like Elminister and Drizzt are untouchable. Nobody's infallable.. and nobody's untouchable. Sure, this means that our favorites will come, and go. Which is great, because what would make the characters special if nothing ever happened to them? If they were always around, would we enjoy their pressence as much? I think not. How was Flint's death pointless? He lived a good life. He did heroic things, and helped lots of people. It was his time to go.. and in his passing, gave a new outlook to a certain Kender, who would have an enormous impact on the rest of Krynn in the time to come, who wouldn't have been capable of doing so without that new outlook.
As long as Margaret and Tracy are even slightly involved in the setting, I think it's safe to say that we'll continue to get Heroes and Villains that we'll love, hate, love to hate, or love and hate. They'll die. But none of them will die needlessly.
And if they aren't involved in the setting anymore?? Than why should I care.. cause I would have no involvement in it either, playing, reading, or otherwise.
His selfless sacrifice united an increasingly divided knighthood on the common bond of what it truly means to be a knight. And that is what turned the tides of the War of the Lance. I don't see how someone could not like Sturm.
Short Answer:
I despise the Knights of Solamnia.
Long Answer:
I despise the Knights of Solamnia because of the whole "mindless persecution of Wizards" thing. At least the Knights of Tahkisis let Wizards into their ranks. Haughty, self-absorbed, single-minded, and tunnel-visioned; that's my image of the typical Knight of Solamnia.
Sure, Sturm turned the tide of the war due to his sacrifice. I do not doubt that. I just don't him or any of the other Knights. Heck, even Tanin and Sturm Majere weren't nearly as cool as they could have been because of that stupid "Oath and Measure" crap. An "honorable" order of knights wouldn't persecute a group of people just for being different from them. I'm willing to start to forgive the KoS after the institution of the Solamnic Auxilliary Mages, but it's still a long way from true forgiveness. Heck, they aren't even anywhere close to actual Knights.
When the day comes that Wizards have their own division in the KoS like they had in the KoT, then and only then will I start to like the KoS in any real capacity. I'll probably never be able to like the blind honor type.
At least with Wizardry, you study and there are visible "fireball-like" results. You study honor, devote your life to it, and what do you get? Stabbed by Kitiara.
I guess I just have a different way of looking at them.
-TRRW
that is exactly the deal with DL.
and miss redrobe
well a rather narrow view of things, but certainly your opinion.
but... there is always a but
don't you think that sturms, or any 'honourable' knights devotion to honour and a code, is any different to the devotion that raistlin, par-salin and dalamar have to their magic?? take for example the 'brothers in arms' book, when the resident war mage was calling Lunitari, 'luni' and raistlin got all protective of his devotion to the red robes. isn't that the same as a knights chivilric code??
as for the KoS and their dislike of magic users (which is slowly getting reversed) is it not similar to the hill and mountain dwarves?
now i'm not trying to ridicule your opinion of the KoS, i'm just trying to bring a new perspective to your view
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
I despise the Knights of Solamnia because of the whole "mindless persecution of Wizards" thing.
To be honest, the KoS do not persecute Wizards. The just do not trust them. There is a very large difference there. The KoS are fearful of anything that they cannot understand. As Thordoc pointed out, the Dwarves also mistrust Wizards, as do Plainsmen. It is a cultural thing.
As to Soth, he was an integral part of this world for nearly 400 years. The fact is he also was very honorable. He was a KoS after all. He was forced into an evil role, took on this Death Knight persona and did what he could to get revenge on all parties involved. His final defiance against Takhisis, I feel, was his last bit of revenge against those who made him what he was.
He deserved some rest at last. He may have been evil, but I still feel that he deserved to sleep at last.
These new characters may not initially seem as nasty (or "cool") as the old, but give them time. I found the new characters in War of Souls to be my favorites, rather than the old.
On the game side, the Age of Mortals campaign (begun in KEY OF DESTINY) reveals a nasty new villain. Keep your eye on Dragonlance.com for a peek at him on an upcoming product cover!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Don't let them get ya, they're up to something :D
i know there must be something having to do with Krell, but he doesn't invoke the same compassion as Lord Soth.
and Raistlin was very very cool, but he must have done some very evil things to get where he was.
obviously there is something coming, but i don't want to see the magic leave and the gods leave, because they are an integral part of the dragonlance universe.
Originally posted by Thordoc
yeah, they are up to something, and i along with most people are looking forward to some very evil villians. but most people at this point are saying that there is nothing really happening. and i understand that not every age can be exciting, just think after the cataclysm, and besides all the looting and rapine. there was almost 300 years of nothing much.
i know there must be something having to do with Krell, but he doesn't invoke the same compassion as Lord Soth.
I think the War of Souls qualifies as a big event in the Fifth Age.
As for Krell, he isn't supposed to be a sympathetic villain, like Soth. He's one of those bad guys you love to hate.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.