Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 05, 2004 10:19:55	is the head of each order of magic the highest level magic-user around? in my campaign, our white-robed wizard has reached caster level 19... we're playing a campaign were Par-Saliaan is still the head of the white robes, and of the conclave, but he is near to retirement... i plan to make justarius new head of the conclave, and since i never really liked Dunbar Mastermate, i wondered if there were any guidelines to choose the head of each order... could a PC qualify? i guess that the "travelling" nature of PC's rules them out, but then, Dunbar said he's often out on his ship, so... any ideas?
#2 Nived May 05, 2004 11:00:47	Tell you the truth I'm not sure, seemed to be a lot about politics not just power. For instance if it was simpley the most powerful Raistlin would have just walked in and taken his seat as the head of the Conclave durring the Legends Trilogy. I suspect this will all be made more clear in June when Towers of High Sorcery is released.
#3 iltharanos May 05, 2004 21:35:17	Originally posted by Delazar is the head of each order of magic the highest level magic-user around? in my campaign, our white-robed wizard has reached caster level 19... we're playing a campaign were Par-Saliaan is still the head of the white robes, and of the conclave, but he is near to retirement... i plan to make justarius new head of the conclave, and since i never really liked Dunbar Mastermate, i wondered if there were any guidelines to choose the head of each order... could a PC qualify? i guess that the "travelling" nature of PC's rules them out, but then, Dunbar said he's often out on his ship, so... any ideas? Don't know about the high level part, but chances are the heads would be among the highest level mages. There were guidelines to how each Order chose their heads, if I remember correctly: White: They voted. Red: They drew randomly. Black: Direct spell battle, with winner becoming Head.
#4 maladaar May 06, 2004 2:07:04	Level....shmevel. The scenario would go something like this: A would-be Wizard of High Sorcery might pose the question like this: "Uh, yeah I am here to take the test. Oh by the way, if I pass, is there any openings for Head of an Order or maybe even conclave?" Wizards of High Sorcery response would be something like this: :sad: :sad: :sad:
#5 zombiegleemax May 06, 2004 3:20:05	Originally posted by iltharanos Don't know about the high level part, but chances are the heads would be among the highest level mages. There were guidelines to how each Order chose their heads, if I remember correctly: White: They voted. Red: They drew randomly. Black: Direct spell battle, with winner becoming Head. I think this is the way they do it! Lot's politics, not really just who's REALLY the most powerful. More likely who is powerful enough and also charismatic/scheaming enough. I also think there should be just some guidelines: Like head of order should be 10th level Wizard of High Sorcery Prestige class in that order, and maybe have one or two levels as Arch Mage prestige class...
#6 zombiegleemax May 06, 2004 5:49:41	Originally posted by iltharanos Red: They drew randomly. randomly? wow, i thought neutrality meant "balance", not complete chaos...
#7 zombiegleemax May 06, 2004 12:00:48	If it's YOUR game, then make it YOUR campaign. If you don't know a rule, make it yourself. Anyway. Generally the head of each order is the highest level magic user in that order. Raistlin could become the head of the black robes and the head of the conclave, but he didn't want to. Personally, I don't think a PC would be suitable for the head of a order. Being a head would take too much time. But it's your game afterall..
#8 zombiegleemax May 06, 2004 13:15:24	Well we're on the subject of the WoHS... I had an interesting conversation last night, about Sorcerer in the WoHS, a few of my players argued that a sorcerer could meet all the requirements to get in to the Orders. I let him run with it (the arguement, not actually doing it, because it isn't possible), just to see what kind of discussion would arise from it, and just for the heck of it, I backed him (even though we were wrong). I find with my players, these sort of discussions help them better understand different aspects of the DLCS and DnD in general. NOTE: As I'm sure most of you are aware, Sorcerers can not join because they fall short on one requirement, they cannot prepare spells, they just cast them. I just thought it was a neat argument to have, of course, I love discussing Krynnish Mythos and Magic with my players. One could argue though, since the WoHS's main loyaly is to that of Magic first, and praise to the Cousins (Sol, Nui and Lun) 2nd, a sorcerer could fit in, ackwardly of course, I wouldn't want him in, as a Wizard, but could. Any thoughts?
#9 cam_banks May 06, 2004 13:24:10	Originally posted by Darlantan One could argue though, since the WoHS's main loyaly is to that of Magic first, and praise to the Cousins (Sol, Nui and Lun) 2nd, a sorcerer could fit in, ackwardly of course, I wouldn't want him in, as a Wizard, but could. Any thoughts? Well, the magic sorcerers use and the magic wizards use is different, and comes from different sources. Added to this the fact that wild magic is tied up with Chaos and was once responsible for years of uncontrolled raging storms of arcane energy (which the wizards of High Sorcery are never going to forget), I think loyalty to the magic more or less effectively brands the sorcerers as dangerous renegades (or at least potentially dangerous ones). Cheers, Cam
#10 brimstone May 06, 2004 13:26:13	I once thought they could become Wizards of High Sorcery, too. But...as it has been pointed out to me the Order is all about...well...order. Everything and everyone has its place. The magic is focused and refined and therefore "safe." The sorcerer is an individual. Sure there was the Academy and even the learning center at the Tower in Wayreth, but there was no heirarchy...each individual was as important as the next. All teachers were students and all students were teachers. The sorcerer depends very much on the fluidity of his or her magic...casting on the fly, so to speak. And while this isn't represented as accurately in 3e...that aspect of fluidity and maeleability of the magic (not necessarily the spells anymore) is still there, and very important. I don't think it would mesh well at all with the Order. But...if they would just lighten up...perhaps they could at least...get along. Maybe... I guess we'll find out in July from Wizard's Conclave (and probably some in June, too from Towers of High Sorcery).
#11 cam_banks May 06, 2004 13:30:18	The White Robe diviner in my Dragonlance campaign is an idealist and thinks that sorcerers deserve a fair shake. I've been utterly ruthless, however, and made sure that all of the sorcerers he's met so far have been either Thorn Knights or somewhat suspicious and lacking real control over their power (namely, Cole, the young pyromancer from the Sylvan Key, who's been traveling with the heroes.) The intent here is to challenge his character's ideals and high aims. Objectively, I don't have a problem with sorcerers, but for the purposes of this campaign they're a real mixed bag. Cheers, Cam
#12 zombiegleemax May 06, 2004 13:43:49	how do you recognize a sorcerer? i understand they don't have to prepare spells, but, when it comes to casting, do they cast spells in a way that you can say "hey, he's not a wizard, he is a sorcerer!" ? could a sorcerer pretend to be a wizard? a couple of campaign ideas coming to my mind...
#13 brimstone May 06, 2004 13:51:59	Originally posted by Delazar could a sorcerer pretend to be a wizard? Yes, a sorcerer could very easily pretend to be a wizard. In the old SAGA era...the sorcerer only needed to focus on creating the spell. How they focused was completely dependent upon the individual. Some chose to speak the spells in old Magius language...speaking the words that would have powered the same spell before the gods left. The words no longer had any real power to them...but it helped the sorcerer focus. Some used a item like an arcane focus. I think this was what Feril did. Maldred (Dhamon's ogre-magi "friend") would hum while performing his magic. They're all different...or they used to be. The new 3e rules state all the spells have to have semantic, verbal, and/or component. I personally will make the sorcerer choose which is thier method of focusing. They can of course use something else (like if they are gagged) but the ability to cast the spell will be diminished...somehow. Anyway, I think it would be very easy for a sorcerer to imitate a wizard (especially now with 3e rules).
#14 caeruleus May 06, 2004 14:59:13	Originally posted by Delazar randomly? wow, i thought neutrality meant "balance", not complete chaos... I also recall reading that the Red Robes drew lots. However, I've taken it to mean that they draw lots from some list of potential candidates. I doubt a wizard who just passed his test will be selected. Plus, if each individual Red Robe is dedicated to the balance, then I would imagine that whoever is selected to be Head will do what they can to maintain that balance, even if each one would do so in a different way (there's that free will gift from the Grey Gods, remember).
#15 iltharanos May 06, 2004 15:23:04	Originally posted by caeruleus I also recall reading that the Red Robes drew lots. However, I've taken it to mean that they draw lots from some list of potential candidates. I doubt a wizard who just passed his test will be selected. Plus, if each individual Red Robe is dedicated to the balance, then I would imagine that whoever is selected to be Head will do what they can to maintain that balance, even if each one would do so in a different way (there's that free will gift from the Grey Gods, remember). Per the Old Dragonlance Adventures hardcover, the Red robes drew lots from their seven members of the Conclave to determine who became head of thier Order.
#16 zombiegleemax May 06, 2004 15:55:17	Yeah, I was wondering about Sorcerer recongnization too actually, my party is becoming very magic oriented. As I mentioned in another thread, we have 3 Wizards (The Black, White and a soon to be Red/Fighter). We also have a Sorcerer/War Mage, a Fighter/Cleric of Kiri-Jolith/Annoited Knight, a Ranger of Habbakuk (her chosen God) and a Mystic. Everyone in my campaign has magic, one way or another. But the White and the Black both approached the Sorcerer. Since she told us she is Sorcerer and wears a Blue Robe, we were able to tell (obviously ;) ). The Black is trying to corrupt her, and get her to join him. The White is trying to get her to join any order and the Red is just keeping an eye on her, figuring as long as we can watch what she does, she won't cause any problems with her magic. Besides, 3 on 1, she doesn't stand a chance :P
#17 Nived May 06, 2004 17:22:17	Man I wouldn't want to be in that part and run into an antimagic field.
#18 raistlinrox May 10, 2004 1:42:32	If I were the White or Black Robe mentioned above, I would do as much talking to the Red as to the sorcerer, because the Red is leaving some of his focus to become a fighter... Not a very good thing to do if you are in the Orders. Magic is supposed to be your weapons and armor. Silly apprentice...
#19 zombiegleemax May 10, 2004 14:51:16	No, he started as a fighter, took like 4 levels, then decided to become a mage. Don't worry, when he goes to talk to the high level mages (my level 17 White and Black NPCs, who are former PCs (not part of the adventuring party, they just pop in and ask for my group to help them with minor tasks)) take him for his test, he'll have some problems using weapons in the future. ;) He's not playing a good wizard actually, he keeps forgetting he has spells. His purpose for wizardy was actually to build magic weapons to sell to in his shops, so he's being greedy. They will... make him see the light... *runs off cackling evily*
#20 Nived May 10, 2004 17:19:13	*runs off cackling evily* A DM after my own heart. You know you haven't come up with a good plot line till it makes you cackle evily. Maniacal laughter is, of course, also acceptible.
#21 zombiegleemax May 10, 2004 22:43:53	Well yes, manical laughter is always exceptable, but I save that for my truly evil schemes, the ones that guarentee at least on PC death ;) In the past, I've never killed a PC... ever, but this campaign, two have died, on by my hand and one by a guest DM. Of course, that death was inflicted by the PCs... the one who died was attacked by a Cloaker.. well, the PC's decided to beat it off him... including the Black Wizards Giant Boulder Tossing Skeleton, who did 30 points of damage... the PC takes half... he was already at -5 or so, but the PC's couldn't tell... dark cave... the cloaker kept him from crumpling down... *wipes away a tear* it was a proud day. Of course, I've also killed off two of the Rangers wolves. But that's small potatoes. When PCs know they can die, it makes them play harder and helps everone have a better time. I had never thought about that, until I read through the DMG. So, words to live by: PCs can die, don't forget that... more importantly, don't let THEM forget that! *runs off, eyes bulging sadistically and with a crooked smile*
#22 zombiegleemax May 11, 2004 0:21:30	2 PC Deaths and your Proud! Heh, in my current homebrew game i'm above 20 PC's killed by now, and they're barely even level 9 yet. Yeah, i'm evil, and sadistic, and cruel, and malicious, and fiendish, and.....
#23 zombiegleemax May 11, 2004 2:36:00	Considering I've NEVER killed a PC until now, yes, I'm very proud. Technically I've killed 4, but the other 2 were just my declaring PC's dead (usually eaten by stray goats). But yes, I try to keep things balanced, sometimes that shifts and they die. I didn't like killing them before, I'd actually fluff ALL my rolls so they wouldn't. Now, I may fluff their first vs. death roll, the 2nd, is fair game. I should have actually killed 7 or 8 (not including the extra 2 goat baits). Give me time, I've got stuff planned... as a matter of fact, we're headed into Skullcap now ;)
#24 Nived May 11, 2004 3:12:34	You're going to want a special folder set aside for when you take their Character Sheets away from them. The DM's graveyard is a sacred thing. Mind you I don't set out to kill my PCs, I just don't baby them. My Graveyard isn't all that thick, but my buddy has one that puts fear in the hearts of the most stalwart gamer. Thing must be an inch or two thick....
#25 zombiegleemax May 11, 2004 11:45:58	Yeah, I've collected the ones I've killed, the PC Graveyard is sacred. In another game, non-DnD, the character's PC was a real jerk, ended up doing battle with one of MY characters, he didn't win, but he ripped up the sheet... I kept them anyway. ;) I don't set out to kill them, but lately, I can just tell, one will die unless he makes an intelligent decision... which never happens.
#26 darthsylver May 11, 2004 18:58:09	Yes the DM's graveyard is a sacred thing. Especially when you go grave-robbing and pit the PCs up against resurrected clones of former characters. Oh the surprise they show when that happens.
#27 zombiegleemax May 12, 2004 22:40:23	heh. I've not yet actually killed any PCs yet, although I think our thief, who is *ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS*, will soon lose his hand. His main hand. So he will have to take a -10 penalty to attack because he uses his off-hand. i don't really have a problem with DMs killing PCs, but I just have no desire for any of the characters dying. What I have a problem with is when DMs kill players they don't have a right to kill. A friend of mine, in a campagn ran by the wrothless thief, had a level 70 character(like I said, worthless. How almost every session would go for them, a great red wyrm appears, he sits on one of them and he goes up its butt, and then he fireball's it from the inside, insta-kill. That happened like, 12 times. It got kinda creapy.), and another DM was stupid enough to let them play their super-overpowered characters in his game, and got mad because they were really powerful, so he had one of them die, and even though they were using their characters stats, not their actual characters(his game had no bearing on theirs), but he ripped up his sheet anyway, and burned it. I'll admit they were all stupid, but still, it doesn't give you the right to destroy someone else's character sheet just because you've decided you didn't want his uber-powerful character around anymore.
#28 zombiegleemax May 12, 2004 23:46:37	My players know, they can die. I don't necessarily wanna kill them. But sometimes the character just doesn't wanna be compatible with a given group. i.e. I've mentioned my group before (bunch of Silvanesti, a half elf and a human. All magic users in one form or another), throw into the mix, a human that characterizes all the prejudice that a Silvanesti believes to exist, add to this, he's a straight out fighter, who refuses to lift a finger to help anyone else with anything. He wouldn't even take a watch because he wanted rest. For the sake of my other players, he had to die. Got lucky too, didn't even have to do it on purpose, he just died fighting Ogres. As for the PC I killed in hand to hand. He challenged my character, he didn't want to tell me how low his HP was, he ended up dying. This wasn't in DnD though, it was a Palladium game (Rifts).
#29 nuke May 13, 2004 21:55:35	I always use death as a teaching tool. I usually end up DM'ing for new groups of players just getting into DL or even D&D for that matter. Coddling them would only give them bad habits.. so like a father letting his child touch the searing red hot heating coil on the stove... I'll let my players touch it. And they start playing with their heads pretty soon after that. Not that I don't get a kick out of it sometimes.. Oh.. right, original topic. How each order chooses their head has been mentioned. But as for the order of the entire conclave, I think they're voted on by the entire council, with the 3 heads of each order as the candidates. And I'm pretty sure the leaving head of the conclave has a really important say in who suceeds him. An adventuring PC couldn't be a head.. he'd definately have to retire from adventuring
#30 zombiegleemax May 13, 2004 23:10:36	This is from the TotL book: One of the seven delegates from each order serves as the order’s Master. The means of selecting the Master differ from order to order: White Robes hold an election; Red Robes draw lots from the seven Conclave members; Black Robes hold contest to prove magical prowess and domination. Once a Master is chosen, he or she serves for life unless convicted of a serious breach of loyalty by unanimous vote of that order’s delegation. The Master of the Conclave, the highest official in the Order of High Sorcery, is elected from the twenty-one Conclave delegates. This election takes place through a consensus spell, which instantaneously gauges the collective will of Krynn’s wizards on a specific topic. Of course, this is 2nd Edition (AD&D). :D
#31 quentingeorge May 14, 2004 1:45:26	The Heads of Conclave so far named have been: Vincil - Red (pre Lost Battles) Joreila - white (Lost Battles) Some guy I forgot the name of - White (post Lost Battles) Par-Salian - White (War of the Lance) Justarius - Red (Up to Chaos War) Dalamar - Black (Chaos War) Palin - White (Briefly in the Fifth Age) Dalamar - Black (post War of Souls) Now there seems to be a roughly equal number from each order. I would think that the voting method of gauging the opinions of all mages at once would favour the Red Robes. Any thoughts?
#32 wdarkk May 14, 2004 1:54:07	Originally posted by Darlantan This election takes place through a consensus spell, which instantaneously gauges the collective will of Krynn’s wizards on a specific topic. Reminds me of a species from one of my worlds. Their leader has a power like this that's active continuously. I used "Consensus" as their title, too.
#33 brimstone May 14, 2004 9:35:49	Originally posted by QuentinGeorge The Heads of Conclave so far named have been: You forgot a few. Dunbar Mastermate (or mane) is one...he was head of the White Robes after the Blue Lady's War. Ladonna was a Black Robed leader in the War of the Lance time frame. Jeanna will be head of the Red Robes in the post-War of Souls. Aside from that...I'm sure that they heads of orders were mentioned in the Divine Hammer. Also...I know that Justarius' predecessor was mentioned in the Defenders of Magic trilogy. There have probably been others...but that's all that come to mind at the moment.
#34 zombiegleemax May 14, 2004 9:37:08	I always wondered what Ladonna looked like. Anyone know where I can find a pic of her ? ~~~
#35 brimstone May 14, 2004 9:38:42	Originally posted by LordofIllusions I always wondered what Ladonna looked like. Anyone know where I can find a pic of her ? There is a very unattractive depiction of her in the SAGA Fate Deck. But I never pictured her that way...not sure why. Maybe because she was so hideous, I couldn't picture Par-Salian ever being in love with her. heh heh
#36 zombiegleemax May 14, 2004 9:39:39	Originally posted by Brimstone There is a very unattractive depiction of her in the SAGA Fate Deck. But I never pictured her that way...not sure why. Maybe because she was so hideous, I couldn't picture Par-Salian ever being in love with her. heh heh What did she look like ? Was it that bad ? ~~~
#37 brimstone May 14, 2004 9:49:20	Originally posted by LordofIllusions What did she look like ? Was it that bad ? She looked like a grey haried sea hag.
#38 zombiegleemax May 14, 2004 9:51:00	:heehee ~~~
#39 brimstone May 14, 2004 9:54:48	Originally posted by LordofIllusions I always wondered what Ladonna looked like. Anyone know where I can find a pic of her ? Apparently she was card 28 in Spellfire as well. Not sure if it's the same picture or not. (chances are...it's not even a DL pic...the Spellfire art wasn't exactly what one could call...accurate) heh heh
#40 zombiegleemax May 14, 2004 9:56:15	One of my players has that deck I will ask him can I check them out. ~~~
#41 quentingeorge May 14, 2004 18:19:27	Actually, I was just talking about Heads of the Conclave, no Heads of the Orders. That's why I didn't include Ladonna.
#42 brimstone May 17, 2004 10:08:39	Originally posted by QuentinGeorge Actually, I was just talking about Heads of the Conclave, no Heads of the Orders. That's why I didn't include Ladonna. Ah...my bad. I misunderstood.
#43 Matthew_L._Martin May 17, 2004 17:40:11	Originally posted by LordofIllusions I always wondered what Ladonna looked like. Anyone know where I can find a pic of her ? ~~~ She and Par-Salian played a substantial role in the DRAGONLANCE comic by DC, issues #13--16--the only material to cover what happened to those two after Legends . Greying black hair, dusky skin, very stern-looking woman. Then again, these comics also made Dalamar a blond. :-) In fairness, their portrayal of Dunbar Mastermate is just perfect, IMO. Matthew L. Martin