| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1prophet_of_chaosMay 08, 2004 6:32:38 | Who did he trap, and how did he do it? Doesn't anyone think it's odd that NPCs get away with things normal characters can't? How is this even possible? |
| #2bdpenneyMay 08, 2004 6:46:35 | This all dates back to the beginnings of the first edition of D&D which was played in Gary Gygax's basement. At this time there really wasn't a LOT of differene between mortals and gods, particularly mortals and demi-gods. Take a peek at the 1st edition Deities and Demigods and you'll quickly see that the only thing that really separtes demigods from mortals is a low level of magic resistance and great saving throws (yeah, there's more, but it really isn't -THAT- significant). Zagyg was an arch magi (level 20+), and at that time a wizard of his level could pretty well nuke nearly any demi-god in the book. As examples of first-edition gods: Lolth was a lesser-goddess who had spellcasting powers of a 16th level cleric, 14th level wizard, a 70% magic resistance and 66 whole hit points. One Temporal Stasis (no saving throw) from Zagyg (who would levy at LEAST a -40% reduction of Lolth's magic resistance, due to 1st edition rules) and "BAM!" Lolth is now a prisoner of the mad arch mage... |
| #3mortellanMay 08, 2004 8:26:31 | Fundamentally yes, 1st edition deities were weak. They also nearly all had psionic powers which was very rare in 1st edition IIRC. But anyhow, the contemporary theory is Zagyg had help in his capture of the nine which consisted of other godlings that he happened to be associated with. Which gods he captured is debatable, with one exception, Iuz. The rest I'll leave up to someone else. |
| #4zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 9:03:14 | Please read this Good discussion... |
| #5zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 12:29:45 | Originally posted by Prophet of Chaos Oh it's possible alright, I didn't believe it myself but when Wolfgang Puck defeated Iron Chef Morimoto A thought occured to me..."Wow...imprisoning demigods is possible." Sorry...lack of sleep... |
| #6ArgonMay 08, 2004 21:08:57 | Zagig is simply a munchkin character if you take his capturing of nine gods to be taken in the literal sense. I think of Zagig as a powerful mage who was also so insane that at times he would become delusional. So Zagig envisioned himself battling gods and taking them back to his castle and imprisoning them. In reality many of these so called gods were actually men or women who Zagig saw as being gods which contested him at every turn. Zagig could of caught a few demons but gods, come on now! Maybe just maybe Iuz but you can add that Iuz was not yet a deity if you like. Remember Iuz had to answer to his Mother Iggwilv for a long time and she never ascended to godhood. So Iuz could of ascended to godhood during of after his escape from Zagig's prison. If you subscribe to the fact that Iuz actually helped construct the Temple of Elemental Evil while he was supposedly imprisoned. Then my first analogy would hold much more weight! That's my two cents! |
| #7GreysonMay 08, 2004 23:16:15 | Hey, all. This is always an interesting discussion, and one that I never tire of reading. I have a question this time around. What is the Obelisk refered to in Iquander's The Final Word on Iuz and Company article? Note that one sentence reads, "... Zagig Yragrene, in order to steal a portion of the Obelisk's power ..." Is it the Obelisk below the moathouse in (area 32 in Return to the Temple of Lelmental Evil)? Or is Iquander refereing to another obelisk? Also, what is the year of the above artcile? Toran posted a say and month, September 8, but no year. How old, or new, is The Final Word on Iuz and Company? I think, as a side note, that The Final Word on Iuz and Company is a great artcile. And, I don't brook any agrument against it. |
| #8grodogMay 09, 2004 0:08:30 | Originally posted by Greyson What is the Obelisk refered to in Iquander's The Final Word on Iuz and Company article? Note that one sentence reads, "... Zagig Yragrene, in order to steal a portion of the Obelisk's power ..." Is it the Obelisk below the moathouse in (area 32 in Return to the Temple of Lelmental Evil)? Or is Iquander refereing to another obelisk? No, this is the Obelisk from WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins---it's a massive artifact. From WRG1: The obelisk is a large 9’ diameter stone which looks as if made from obsidian. One large shield-sized and -shaped chip is missing from it as well as four smaller such chips. It rests in the Here are the other references to it (from Zavoda's index): Obelisk [ITM] Returning to Greyson's query: Also, what is the year of the above artcile? Toran posted a say and month, September 8, but no year. How old, or new, is The Final Word on Iuz and Company? I think, as a side note, that The Final Word on Iuz and Company is a great artcile. And, I don't brook any agrument against it. IIRC, that was posted in 2001, since the article id is #77, and one of my Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles was #78. |
| #9mortellanMay 09, 2004 0:17:50 | The Obelisk in question is below Castle Zagig. The middle tower IIRC. Its power is to mask the existence of the Earth Stone, which to my knowledge was never found by Zagig or anyone. |
| #10zombiegleemaxMay 09, 2004 1:51:41 | According to Oerth Journal #7, written by Robert Kuntz and Edited by Erik Mona the Nine were: Iuz, Heironeous, Hextor, Celestian, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Obid-Hai, Olidammara, Erythnul. That's the list I've always gone with. |
| #11mortellanMay 09, 2004 3:05:44 | That list seems better than the one on canonfire if just for the quality of gods detained. the problem i have with this OJ 7 list is: a) Iuz is the only demi-god on the list, why not go the whole 'nine' yards and capture a lesser god of evil? b) According to 1st edition sources, isn't Zagig and Celestian pals? I could be wrong. c) Not that the other gods wouldn't feel slighted but, capturing Trithereon would be a huge slight to his ethos and I'd say the priesthood would have an antipathy towards Zagig adherants because of this. |
| #12grodogMay 09, 2004 12:41:59 | Originally posted by mortellan The way I've heard it explained is that the difference between greater/lesser/etc. gods wasn't as refined way back when EGG created D&D---so that quasi vs. demi vs. lesser vs. greater gradations weren't significant from a rules POV. It was a literary device moreso than a rules expression---DM fiat at work :D b) According to 1st edition sources, isn't Zagig and Celestian pals? I could be wrong. Yep! c) Not that the other gods wouldn't feel slighted but, capturing Trithereon would be a huge slight to his ethos and I'd say the priesthood would have an antipathy towards Zagig adherants because of this. That would make perfect sense. Don't forget that Zagig also captured and imprisoned Fraz'Urb-luu as well.... |
| #13avfanaticMay 09, 2004 15:44:45 | According to 'Greyhawk Ruins' and 'Living Greyhawk Gazetteer' all nine were demigods. In LGG they mention Iuz, Merikka, Wastri and Rudd. In 'Greyhawk the Adventure Begins' they mention Iuz is the only one to escape under his own power in CY570 (he was imprisoned in CY505). From "Greyhawk Ruins" by Blake Mobley and Timothy b. Brown: "He summoned all the powers he could muster to capture each, one at a time, and seal them into specially prepared spherical cells..." He did this so that, with Boccob's sponsorship, he could ascend to demigod status. |