The arguement against them is that on Athas, Arcane Magic is not a natural force (like the Weave), it's a constructed, invented form, developed by one person, Rajaat. It doesn't seem likely that someone could be "born" to be able to wield a power that normally takes years of study.
The analogy would be someone spontaneously able to speak Latin, having never heard the language.
So, what might have happened in 300 years to change this? Why are there Sorcerers?
The answer to the question might lie in more questions: What is the source of Arcane Magic? Whose essence has been in the Hollow for centuries? Who might be trying to come back? Projecting shards of his consciousness into those minds most receptive to his gifts...
"Sorcery" perfectly fits the ability for creatures born wielding the ability to use and, importanlty, improve thier magical potential.
Ok, so how the heck can belgoi etc be BOOK-learned defilers, who don't have access to magical components, hm? Obiously they *have* to be sorcerors, as it's a semi-innate ability.
(Oh, and I agree with the current arguement proposing sorcrors should in general, not require spell components)
As PCs in Athas they can be troublesome, but also fit the strange, mutated concept of the world. Of course, as DM , it's up to you which can include saying to heck with the "cannon", including Rajaat and the entire official history *evil chuckles*.
You can imagine those showing "sorcery" in their blood lines maybe exterminated, OR controlled by the sorceror kings..boy wouldn't that be fun, the SKs' having templars who no one knows are sorcerors as well bar themselves, a selected few higher ups, and the SK!.
It would be very reasonable to say sorcery is rare in the normal races because there is or was a spell/ability that showed sorcerous ability in the blood, and such folk were mercilessly hunted down.
Magic doesn't HAVE to have an explanation, unless you, the DM wishes it. I much preffer the idea that magic is some "unknown or unknowable force", same across many Planes, but, in Athas, some folks discovered a way to amplify it, by defiling. Defilers IMHO should be more powerful than normal wizards. That's the whole point of the conflict and catastrophy.
I think if I can manage to get a DS cmapaign going again, I'd use the Athas.org 3.5 rules but say that those who are defilers, get the defiling feats as FREE, BONUS feats, or similar. Defilers should have more power, at the cost of their arcane powers being destructive, and ultimately, cataclysmic. It's the lure of absolute power ;)
be a crack Templar Witchhunter force. Who hunts down enemies of the City-State like Defilers, Preserver, or even Psionics.
But this has given me an idea to implement in, in which
sorcerors would be a huge thorn in the SK's side when they can
easily hide (better w/o their books, and dont need masters).
They are an abomination and a mutant which needs to be cleansed. Call it the new Cleansing Wars on Sorcerors.
I have a lot less problems with Athasian sorcerers than I do with paladins or monks.
And I guess the line between sorcerer and psion may be blurred a bit in 3e as psions are so similar to arcane casters, which I think was a mistake in the first place. But I don't think they are close enough to worry about.
Also, I don't think it takes anything away from psions. While similar, there are differences, especially if you run it from the "Psionics are Different" perspective. That's kind of like saying that Rogues and Bards are the same. They are very similar, but have different abilities. I could post them, but you know them. I don't see what the big deal is.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Mechanically though, the distinction between a psion and a sorcerer is slim. If you include sorcerers, it removes some of the mechanical uniqueness of the psion (though I suppose templars do that a little as well).
The distinction is a bit more obvious with the XPH than it was with the PsiHB.
It's worked fine in play, actually. I've altered the sorcerer spell-list to differentiate it from the wizard, allowed psicrystals as (or rather, in place of) "familiars," and converted a couple of psionic feats for use with the sorcerer class, meaning altering them for use without those damnable cursed psionic power points or whatever in Hel they're called in this latest edition.
Why? I hate psionics. Despise and hate. Ungodly, cursed, annoying, blasphemous, disgusting, foul, filthy, abominable psionics.
And yes, this goes all the way back to 2nd Edition.
Heck, I even changed 2nd Edition psionicists into something I called "sorcerers" and began rewriting the powers as spells with funky, mystic-sounding names...way before 3rd edition was ever announced or even rumored, because I couldn't stand psionics.
I mean, yeah, just what we really bloody need, another type of magic that, ooo-ooo, "isn't really magic at all!" {bum-bum-baa} and makes references to "cells" and "molecules" and a hundred other things the medieval world had no conception of. Way to ruin the flava and kill my suspension of disbelief!
Die, psionics, die! Cursed bane of my existance!
And that, gentlemen and ladies, is why my Athas has sorcerers...they're Students and Masters of the Way, not pseudo-wizards. And I don't need a whole gull-darn new magic system just to deal with them: they work like every other "spell" caster.
Have a boobie...
or some cotton candy...
Use this one:
Oh, back to the topic at hand:
Sorcerers == why not? I kind of understand the argument against them, but as I've pointed out many times, they still have to use preserver or defiler magic to cast their spells. What's the big deal?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Sorcerers == why not? I kind of understand the argument against them, but as I've pointed out many times, they still have to use preserver or defiler magic to cast their spells. What's the big deal?
They trump too much on psionic manifesters for my tastes. Even if you use XPH and the psionics are different optional rule.
Templars do too, but not nearly as bad.
Besides, magic and su abilities should be rare in Athas IMO, not on every friggin street corner. One less spell caster to make the setting that much more to my liking.
Stroke your boobie and call it good.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
They could still be rare, it just gives the player another option. I think Wizards actually did a pretty good job of balancing psions, wizards, and sorcerers. While sorcerers would be exceedingly rare, so are adventurers and heroes. I'll go back to my old standby: if it works in your campaign, as it does in mine, use it. If not, don't worry about it.
My overall complaint is that there are way too many spell casting classes on Athas as it is, adding one more just adds salt to the wound.
Hence why I'm using my own conversion and only having wizards, druids, clerics, psions, psiwarrirors, and wilders as any sort of "spell caster".
"Magic" is suppose to be rare on Athas after all, whether it's items or actual casters.
Stroke your boobie and call it good.
Mmmmm so soft, so feathery...
/me eats some cotton candy too
He mentioned that maybe they could be something akin to a minor conduit for Rajat's power. (Oh btw its pre FY10)
Any player that wishes to play a sorcerer is quite free to do so, although they might have a slight shock in a little while.
Oh and Nyt:
A pair of **** to go with your boobies
Just throwing out an idea. I don't agree that sorcerers trump Psionic classes. I do agree that magic should be limited/restricted on Athas. however, I wouldn't mind to see Sorcs make their way into Athas. But the way the flavor text works from the PHB, I just plain can't see it.
But it really does fit Athas.
I always see magic as some vast power that the Comos is based on: the Quantum field?? Where as psionics is the direct application of will to force change or thought on the microscale
.
Hm, kind of goes with the Egyptian idea, and others, of SOUL, MIND and BODY.
Magic is the Soul, Psionics is the Mind. Magic should be a damn sight more powerful than psiinics in a gross sense (that is, in macroscale), but psionics better on the small scale.
Anyway, years ago I did a simple conversion system for 2nd ed psionics to allow it to use the Player's Handbook, thus no need for the Psionics Handbook and it's unwieldy stuff. Got published in Polyhedron too!
Even if it really got Half-Giants wrong in the process.Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
learn arcane magic by "figuring it out" from watching preservers & defilers, picking up their own unique brand of arcane casting
I think I mentioned this here, but I may not have, what do you think about the idea of sorcerers being cerulean wizards, necromancers, or and shadow wizards (illusionists)?
I'm particularly enamored of the first of those options, it seems exactly the way cerulean wizards would have come about: a voice whispering to them in the storm, or a would-be wizard attracted to drawing the power of the Tyr storms.
Necromancers, too, might have some sort of attachment to the Gray caused by exposure to death energies, or the undead...and have learned to manipulate that connection as might a wizard.
Originally posted by felixmeister
Oh and Nyt:
A pair of **** to go with your boobies
Woohoo!
Yeah, found some of those too but I called them teets since the boards find the other spelling offensive. :P
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Just throwing out an idea. I don't agree that sorcerers trump Psionic classes. I do agree that magic should be limited/restricted on Athas. however, I wouldn't mind to see Sorcs make their way into Athas. But the way the flavor text works from the PHB, I just plain can't see it.
I think just leaving the sorcerer-type casting for templars and advance beings is fine. Don't need the core class added IMO.
Originally posted by greyorm
I think I mentioned this here, but I may not have, what do you think about the idea of sorcerers being cerulean wizards, necromancers, or and shadow wizards (illusionists)?
I'm particularly enamored of the first of those options, it seems exactly the way cerulean wizards would have come about: a voice whispering to them in the storm, or a would-be wizard attracted to drawing the power of the Tyr storms.
Necromancers, too, might have some sort of attachment to the Gray caused by exposure to death energies, or the undead...and have learned to manipulate that connection as might a wizard.
I personally believe that the Cerulean, Necromancer & Shadow Wizards should be Prestige Classes. If the requirements were set up for being generalized to arcane spellcasters on the whole rather than wizards specificaly, this could allow for Sorcerers to become them. If I recall, Jon has them as Prestige Classes, and rather good ones.
I'm perfectly happy for a player to take a Sorcerer though, they're simply vastly more likely in an 'uncivilised' world where knowledge and learning are so restricted, especially beyond the City-States and of course, where so often it's difficult or just impractical to keep spell-books.
The vast majority of my NPC's that cast arcane spells are Sorcerers who Defile, presenting them as either unaware of the alternatives and/or unwilling to put the work in.
I only grant Sorcerers spells from the PHB though - if they want a spell from another source they have to go through the work of 'developing' the spell from scratch. It'll look a little different from anybody elses but is mechanically identical to what is written in the source it's from.
Don't forget the differences in feats available to Wizards & Sorcerers further differentiate them... though Defiling with the new method (D#315) breaks that somewhat... though a Sorcerer under those rules is far more likely to Defile than a Wizard, which supports the above stated perspective.
Suggesting that Sorcerers attain their power from the blood of Dragons is of course unsuitable on Athas (but then, I think it's a fairly lazy conclusion anyway), I prefer to grant my players a little license in the source of their mystical powers; My campaign holds (without going into too much detail) that many Sorcerers gain their powers (sometimes even through deals with) Elemental Lords (as per Sorcerer Kings but whose background is of my own devising & with a rather extensive story tied in with the origins of Athas).
Basically, you have a spellbook, but you cast spells spontaneously. You select a number of spells per day (from one chart), and then you have a spells per spell level casting chart. Want to memorize new spells? Fine, you can do it tomorrow, and have a whole new batch of spells to spontaneously cast.
1) Reactions:
Sorcerers are going to cast arcane spells, which means defiling or preserving. Except for how they learn spells and spontaneous casting, there should be no difference in the rules that apply for wizards casting spells and sorcerers casting spells. This means that the populace in many, many places will respond wearily or worse to sorcs if their spell casting abilities are revealed. The only real difference is that sorcs don't have to worry about spell books.
2) Plot:
The point was raised that magic isn't natural on Athas in the way it is on other game worlds, where it is assumed that magic is something not natural or normal -- you have to leech off life energies to use magic, etc. This may or may not be the case, but if sorcs started appearing recently in the game history, the best way to use it is as a plot hook. Why are they appearing? Is magic integrating into the people, possibly the world itself? Or is it something more sinister? Or just another survival tool developed by those enduring under the red sun of Athas? Further, how do different factions react? Some will try to kill off sorcs that are born or become identified as such? How would the sorcerer kings react? What about the Vield Alliance? Sorcs make regulating training and keeping track of arcane casters more difficult for both sides. And what about people in general? Would a rash of something resembling witch burnings errupt in places where arcane magic is viewed as something evil? Any of these concerns and more can be used for a major plot line to a few side encounters with templars or towns folk doing an athasian version of the salem witch trials.
3) Flavor
Magic and psionics carry a very different flavor, and given the fact that on Athas the psionics is different rule variant is used, combined with the above points, should provide even more of a seperation between psionics and sorc magic.
Further on this point, the issue has been raised that psionics doesn't fit in setting of most D&D settings, such as Grey Hawk, etc. However, while this is true in the general (Dark Sun is the only setting specifically designed for psionics as far as I know, but you have to love the infinite flexibility of Planescape in this regaurd), playing a psionic character may give a refreshing change from the standard classes, especially if the psionics is different variant is used. Your character would have powers and insights many others would not, but can anyone honestly say that the rare psion's knowledge of molecules, etc. would be any different than a mage's insights into magic or a cleric's knowledge of divine power? The only thing that seperates the psion in Greyhawk from the mage is the relative level of rarity -- there are more mages and magic than psions and psionics. But consider Dark Sun for this if nothing else. This is a system where magic is rare in the Table Lands, especially before the revolt in Tyr. Magic in Dark Sun before the Tyrian revolt wasn't as uncommon as psionics is in Grey Hawk or a similar setting, but it was far less common than psionics. Think about playing a Dark Sun game right when magic was new, and it was a wonderous new science/art (before Rajaat's 'fall') yet to be fully explored. That would be something like what a character might experiance, on a personal scale, if he/she developed psionic powers in a Grey Hawk-ish, or other setting lacking psionics in any real numbers.