According to the Dragon article, "Athasian paladins worship no particular god, but they have a strong and unbending belief in the supremacy of law and goodness." That doesn't really seem to cut it, given that paladins in other D&D worlds are strongly tied to powerful gods. Which we don't have on Athas.
The equivalent - the sources of Clerical power - on Athas are the Elemental Lords, Spirits of the Land, and the Sorcerer Kings.
The Elemental Lords are too self-centred to "have a strong and unbending belief in the supremacy of law and goodness", and besides, they have their champions - the Elemental Clerics. The same goes for the Spirits of the Land, and the Druids.
And the Sorcerer-Kings are pretty much the antithesis of "law and goodness"...
Except one.
To my mind, the only real source of Paladins is Oronis, and Kurn.
Now, we all know Oronis has been quiet, and subtle, for several hundred years. Why might he suddenly send out champions, who are almost custom-designed to inflame the Dragon Kings?
Perhaps that's why these paladins have had their memories altered - so when you probe their minds, instead of their devotion to Oronis, all you get is a "strong and unbending belief in the supremacy of law and goodness".
Imagine the fun when your unsuspecting paladin player begins to realise that their memories of their home life don't quite make sense. And the event that drove them to their solitary life of devotion doesn't appear to have actually taken place... and all the signs appear to point North...
These are the only type of paladins I would allow in my campaign, they make the most sense anyways.
Having said that, I think an Elemental (or Druidic) Champion is a cool idea in and of itself...
...and sometimes I find that intriquing possibilities arise when you do. I'm almost tempted to think about what Oronis might be up to...
Originally posted by Korvar
Yeah, the problem with the "elemental champion" idea is the lack of "law and goodness" which is a pretty strong part of the paladin class...
Having said that, I think an Elemental (or Druidic) Champion is a cool idea in and of itself...
So take out the law and good part.
Originally posted by Korvar
I should point out for the record that I'm pretty anti the whole Sorcerer and Paladin thing. I guess I just like finding ways to make things work, finding a way from A to B...
I don't think sorcerers should exist other than PrCs that the SMs have that allow them to spontaneously cast.
I can't see paladins as they are in core, fit into Athas, but I can see something similar to it fitting.
to hell with Paizo and their absentminded DS release. there is no reason why Athas.org should be forced into adopting Dragons and Dungeons conversion. As far as I'm concerned I'm not adopting anything from those two releases... paladins on Athas... bearded dwarves.. communing elves... c'mon give me a break.. Why not just play FR and make a desert campaign? you get to have all the gods and paladins you want...
Athas.orgs conversion is for lack of a better word: Perfect. it preserves the DS feel and the class conversions have been done with a lot of thought.
Originally posted by Korvar
ITo my mind, the only real source of Paladins is Oronis, and Kurn.
Now, we all know Oronis has been quiet, and subtle, for several hundred years. Why might he suddenly send out champions, who are almost custom-designed to inflame the Dragon Kings?
Perhaps that's why these paladins have had their memories altered - so when you probe their minds, instead of their devotion to Oronis, all you get is a "strong and unbending belief in the supremacy of law and goodness".
Imagine the fun when your unsuspecting paladin player begins to realise that their memories of their home life don't quite make sense. And the event that drove them to their solitary life of devotion doesn't appear to have actually taken place... and all the signs appear to point North...
Still, it doesn't seem to be something that Oronis would do, and has a very contrieved feeling to it, and gives the impression of someone trying to rationalize the existence of Paladins for the sake of making paladins exist, rather than a deeper integration into the Athasian core. Look - Athas.org did a preey good job bringing Barbarians into Athas, renaming them Brutes and providing some decent descriptive text that helps make them make sense for Dark Sun. If you want Paladins - find a tangable source that fits for Athas, I'd strongly suggest not redefining what Oronis is. don't make the Dark Sun campaign setting fit the class, make the class fit the Dark Sun campaign setting. Same goes for Sorcerers - if someone can make them fit into Dark Sun good enough, I'll be more than happy to have that class available. I just haven't seen it done yet, and my own head's too mixed up into Advanced Beings to give it a shot currently.
Originally posted by Korvar
But what Oronis is isn't static. Oronis' plans will change over time, as circumstances change. It's 300 years since the huge upheavals - maybe something's changed in that time. Something that requires a change in strategy.
Something drastic, that radically affected him that didn't happen in the last 1,000 years? We're not talking about someone who is impulsive here - it took him about 1,000 years to redeem himself, develop and begin the Avangion process, and another 1,000 years of actually undergoing it by the time of FY 10. He had shown two other people how to become Avangions, and they both died because of it. as such, he even became more of a recluse, and had sworn never to teach another person the process - which, I'd say that maybe, in 300 years, he might have done that again. Remember - he's not fighting for what's necessarily right & good - he's fighting to save the planet from total desecration at the hands of Defilers, of which he himself had a part in. There's a difference between doing that (and tending to be more favorable to Druids) and making an order of devout followers of law, order, justice and goodness, like Paladins. Now, unless the world somehow miraculously cured itself of the blights set in place by Defilers, I just don't see him doing a complete 180 on his stance - which making paladins would be. He's far more interested in bringing green to the world than defeating & overthrowing the other Sorcerer-Kings. True, if the opportunity presented itself, he'd still not mind killing (or attempting to redeem?) the other SK's, it's just not his priority, and I don't see a mere 300 years changing that for him. But that's just me.
Originally posted by zerpentor
ok.. here's my take on this..
[snip]
Athas.orgs conversion is for lack of a better word: Perfect. it preserves the DS feel and the class conversions have been done with a lot of thought.
Amen to that brother.
The horse whisperer.
:D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
So sayeth the mighty Grummore.
The horse whisperer.
:D
:D :D :D
Just hanging around when I can. Very busy lately
I had some idea about being "reborn as a champion of the elements"...a slain individual's spirit (or body?) is chanced upon by the elemental lords and played with as a toy, imbued with elemental energies and returned to life.
If just the body, as the idea, the paladin is really an elemental spirit bound into flesh -- a way to bring the fight back to the destructive, vicious paraelements: creating warriors who grow in strength and power, until they become unparalelled elemental warriors through the trials they face upon Athas.
Or here's an idea that just occurred to me: hunters of the dead. Champions of the Gray. Scourgers of the Shadows. Cerulean Knights.
Man, I'm getting ideas.
Paladins are those who put to rest the unquiet spirits of Athas. All the living dead are their foes, whether out of a desire for revenge, or a desire to put these lost souls to their final rest in the Gray, or whatever.
The living and the dead should not mix, the dead must move on, making necromancers their ultimate foes.
Or maybe just making them hunters, period, who tie themselves to a specific supernatural class of enemy and gain the powers to resist and defeat it: shadows, undead, illusions and psionic spirits (I don't know, "mindbenders"?), paraelementals, defilers.
I like that last one...someone has to hunt defilers...hunt wizards, because everyone on Athas hates and fears them (or at least that's the common sentiment). Maybe there are folks who are dedicated to that pursuit.
Ok, that's my stream-of-consciousness.
Originally posted by greyorm
Or here's an idea that just occurred to me: hunters of the dead. Champions of the Gray. Scourgers of the Shadows. Cerulean Knights.
Man, I'm getting ideas.
Paladins are those who put to rest the unquiet spirits of Athas. All the living dead are their foes, whether out of a desire for revenge, or a desire to put these lost souls to their final rest in the Gray, or whatever.
The living and the dead should not mix, the dead must move on, making necromancers their ultimate foes.
Or maybe just making them hunters, period, who tie themselves to a specific supernatural class of enemy and gain the powers to resist and defeat it: shadows, undead, illusions and psionic spirits (I don't know, "mindbenders"?), paraelementals, defilers.
I like that last one...someone has to hunt defilers...hunt wizards, because everyone on Athas hates and fears them (or at least that's the common sentiment). Maybe there are folks who are dedicated to that pursuit.
Ok, that's my stream-of-consciousness.
Actually, those are cool ideas - and ones that might just allow Paladins to not get killed out of hand by the Sorcerer-Kings. Sure, they espouse an opposing philosophy, but they're just lone warriors, and they do perform a useful service...
next we will be seeing halfling wizards...
[searches for cover - you are a Holländer after all]
next we will be seeing halfling wizards...
You realize halflings weren't allowed to be wizards because 2nd Edition didn't allow certain races to take certain classes? The mechanics of the existing game rules influenced the flavor of DarkSun when it was written for play?
As such, "no halfling wizards" cannot be said to be an actual part of the flavor of the world, only an adaptation of the world to fit the game system of the time. That is, the world was created with explanations of the mechanics of the existing system.
If DS had been first developed under the 3E system, who's to say that halflings would have been disallowed to be wizards? Since the flavor, in this instance, is so strongly affected by (and generated by) the mechanics, we can't really claim it is intentional flavor, since it is not independent of the system mechanics.
But what in Hel do halfling wizards have to do with creating a working paladin-like class in DarkSun?
(Seriously! If you want to complain about DS flavor being "ruined" could you start your own topic thread about it so as not to drag this one off track? Thanks!)
Something like this:
- Cannot cast spells.
- Uses psionic abilities such as "sever the tie" that specifically target undead.
- Maybe lower hit points than your standard paladin - making them almost more of a pyschic warrior prestige class with benefits.
- Universal relationships with the elements. Maybe making them a warrior class of the druids?
Just some thoughts.
***u twist the words of the flavor right around, because i think story wise they said no possebility of halflings becoming wizards was a problem Rajaat had, and if they wanted him to not have that prob. then they could have just said that halflings were allouwed to become such...
As such, "no halfling wizards" cannot be said to be an actual part of the flavor of the world, only an adaptation of the world to fit the game system of the time. That is, the world was created with explanations of the mechanics of the existing system.
If DS had been first developed under the 3E system, who's to say that halflings would have been disallowed to be wizards? Since the flavor, in this instance, is so strongly affected by (and generated by) the mechanics, we can't really claim it is intentional flavor, since it is not independent of the system mechanics.
*** not true it was stated (as i did above that halflings could not learn magic and thats why Rajaat used humans as his pawns..
But what in Hel do halfling wizards have to do with creating a working paladin-like class in DarkSun?
***it has to do with bringing classes into darksun witch should not be there at all, it is not as you put it new topic or something...
(Seriously! If you want to complain about DS flavor being "ruined" could you start your own topic thread about it so as not to drag this one off track? Thanks!)
***no offtracking....
Originally posted by Korvar
Much to my own irritation, I've found another possibility, having read through the Dungeon article about Gulg. It appears that the Oba of Gulg is sending out "missionaries" to spread the word of her beficent rule, and how she will spread the fertile forests over the face of Athas, and all that. It's not unreasonable that she might create "paladins" of a sort, who are truly convinced of her divinity, and wish to do good deeds in her name...
Actually, I beleive that this was in the revised Dark Sun campaign setting. I haven't read the new article that seems to be drawing the ire of DSUN fans, but I am quite sure that the Oba sends out her templars to spread her word. Of course these are Templars, not paladins. Paladins cannot exist on Athas, its the hierachy of needs. You can't go around doing good if you don't know where your next meal is coming from or you must constantly defend yourself from attack.
As for Oronis, he cannot move against the SK's, they would annihilate him utterly. 6 or so against 1, even Dregoth couldn't stand, and he was far stronger than Oronis is.
Elemental Champion
Lay on hands works the same way but has an elemental twist to it like Fire closes the wounds (painfull yes, but nobody said the elements were gentle) or Water pouring from the wounds cleaning them and regenerating them
Blessed weapon becomes Elemantal weapon
Divine might - become elemantal might
Holy Sword - Elemantal Sword/Axe/hammer/whatever
The Variant Paladin does not gain divine spellcasting abilities, But these more reliable abilities instead.
Originally posted by zerpentor
Lay on hands works the same way but has an elemental twist to it like Fire closes the wounds (painfull yes, but nobody said the elements were gentle) or Water pouring from the wounds cleaning them and regenerating them
Wow, thats the exact way i've always imagined that cure *x* wounds cast by an elemantal cleric would work. Especially the cauterizing of wounds by a fire cleric.
Originally posted by Burningspear
i dont like the "total disregard" with witch the flavor of darksun is being ignored.....
next we will be seeing halfling wizards...
Hey, I've already accepted the idea of potential Halfling Wizards. Rare as they may be. And believe me, in my campaign, it's probably easier to find an elusive Rhulisti than it is to find a Halfling Wizard.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Hey, I've already accepted the idea of potential Halfling Wizards. Rare as they may be. And believe me, in my campaign, it's probably easier to find an elusive Rhulisti than it is to find a Halfling Wizard.
ok here's a laugher =) there's actually a Halfling Preserver NPC in one of the TSR releases. Ill try to find it
Originally posted by Burningspear
u twist the words of the flavor right around, because i think story wise they said no possebility of halflings becoming wizards was a problem Rajaat had, and if they wanted him to not have that prob. then they could have just said that halflings were allouwed to become such...
not true it was stated (as i did above that halflings could not learn magic and thats why Rajaat used humans as his pawns.
I'm afraid that doesn't disprove my point. The reason for the ruling about halfling wizards, for the development of the idea of Rajaat not being able to use them, was still spurred by the mechanics originally.
Now, I do recognize what you are saying, that halfling wizards conflict with the established history of Athas, and thus would not work; however, the source of the flavor remains in question, and whether or not that restriction and bit of history would have become part of cannon if DS had been first written under 3E rules is debatable.
But that's neither here nor there...
it has to do with bringing classes into darksun witch should not be there at all, it is not as you put it new topic or something...
Then, I believe, you should have made that point more clearly, rather than dragging halfling wizards into it. And, perhaps, posted a critique of the use or development of the paladin (or paladin-like) class on Athas, rather than simply declaring you don't like the idea (an ultimately empty addition to the conversation, to which a person can only respond "OK").
***no offtracking....
The phrase you're looking for is "My point wasn't off-track for the discussion." Perhaps not off-track, but not really useful, either.
So, here are my questions for you: why won't paladins work on Athas? How do they completely disregard the flavor of the world? That in mind, how do you think they could then be rewritten for use in a DS campaign, to match and enhance the flavor?
I look forward to your thoughts on these matters!
ok here's a laugher =) there's actually a Halfling Preserver NPC in one of the TSR releases. Ill try to find it
Dragon's Crown. As I mentioned above, an Illusionist.
*** r u an insider of TSR?, then how can u so surely know how the game was written in regards to game mechanics and story flavor?...
Now, I do recognize what you are saying, that halfling wizards conflict with the established history of Athas, and thus would not work; however, the source of the flavor remains in question, and whether or not that restriction and bit of history would have become part of cannon if DS had been first written under 3E rules is debatable.
*** it is not meant to be rewritten just to make the game more "playable" so some fool can go play a palladin in athas..
its a story line witch should be kept in line as it was and not like o lets change the whole flavor of the game by adding all the classes and a few ne races as well coz we have nothing else to do than just screw a good story.....
But that's neither here nor there...
quote:
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it has to do with bringing classes into darksun witch should not be there at all, it is not as you put it new topic or something...
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Then, I believe, you should have made that point more clearly, rather than dragging halfling wizards into it. And, perhaps, posted a critique of the use or development of the paladin (or paladin-like) class on Athas, rather than simply declaring you don't like the idea (an ultimately empty addition to the conversation, to which a person can only respond "OK").
***by stating my opinion i thought i would make the point clear, witch it seems it did not.
neither paladins nor halfling wizards in any form (incl. there own disregard for flavor..) should be brought into tha darksun story.
if u do want to bring a palladin into darksun just import a character from another world into darksun and let him play along...
The phrase you're looking for is "My point wasn't off-track for the discussion." Perhaps not off-track, but not really useful, either.
***dont go insulting me on my spelling and grammar, thats when i start taking it to personal...!
ok but i am not angry or such..just making a point..
So, here are my questions for you: why won't paladins work on Athas? How do they completely disregard the flavor of the world? That in mind, how do you think they could then be rewritten for use in a DS campaign, to match and enhance the flavor?
***did u ever read the original setting?, it seems unlikely that u did coz otherwise u would not ask such questions..
and there r enough prestige classes to still have the feeling of a righteous character, even in the darksun campain..
***TSR has a had a habbit of undermining theyre own rules..
***and the idea of oronis having such type of chars. is a good starting point but i still think it should not be done from the startingpoint of the palladin.
more something like militant nature wizards or such as is a "prestige" class in defilers and preservers of the original setting.
Originally posted by Burningspear
r u an insider of TSR?, then how can u so surely know how the game was written in regards to game mechanics and story flavor?...
Two reasons: Logical Deduction and Being a Game Designer, hence I know how it works.
When creating a new setting for an existing game system, the game system forms part of the basis for the setting being created (it influences it), because the setting must support and explain the way the mechanics work in the existing system (such as magic, racial restrictions on classes, etc).
Obviously I can't know for certain that this particular aspect of the game was written in support of the rules of the time, but by the same token, neither can you know that it was not. Hence, in making your above query, you cannot logically claim the opposing position -- that the story was developed without reference to the mechanics -- unless you were an insider of TSR.
(Note, if you check, I did not say it was, I said it was reasonable to assume it was, being aware of precisely the problem of knowledge of development. Similar, but fundamentally different statements).
*** it is not meant to be rewritten just to make the game more "playable" so some fool can go play a palladin in athas..
I wasn't aware that if someone dares change or alter anything about Athas, they're fools and idiots? I thought part of the lure of RPGs and their settings was the ability to alter them to suit our own group's needs and desires, rather than slavishly adhere to someone else's ideas?
That said, you would be right if you were to counter that there are good changes and bad changes. You obviously feel new races and classes are the latter, though you haven't really stated why, beyond the vague proclamation that it "would be bad for the flavor," and in one particular instance (halfling wizards) does not match the established history.
But let me come back to this...
***by stating my opinion i thought i would make the point clear, witch it seems it did not. {snip}
You'll note, I asked "Why?" Your opinion, thus far, has not made that point particularly clear. "Because I don't like it," isn't an answer, or at least it isn't a very good answer.
Why shouldn't they be there? You appear to be saying because it will "ruin the story" (or rather, the setting flavor), but why? Certainly the paladin can be altered enough that it fits the flavor of DarkSun? Exactly as the traditional races and classes were altered to create/fit the flavor of the setting? How does matching the flavor with an addition ruin the flavor?
So while I agree that "[the] story line...should be kept in line as it was" is a good supporting argument for not including certain items (such as halfling wizards*), I fail to see how adding new classes or races will change the whole flavor of the game if the style of the setting is kept regarding those additions?
How, if we change the flavor of the paladin to match that of DarkSun, will it upset or ruin the flavor of the world? Could you explain that for me? (Yes, I keep asking...it is a very important point of the discussion)
* And that only if you accept the reason Rajaat used humans was because halflings couldn't be wizards...perhaps it was rather that Rajaat did not want to "taint" them by teaching them his magic, because then he could not perfectly restore the Blue Age.
***did u ever read the original setting?, it seems unlikely that u did coz otherwise u would not ask such questions..
An Ad Hominem, an excellent dodge of my question, but completely unacceptable as such.
Normally, I'd not respond, since it is merely an avoidance of the question posed, an attempt to put myself on the defensive and remove the pressure to respond from yourself, but just so you have the information, should it ever be relevant:
I've been playing DarkSun since junior high school...I bought the original boxed set right when it was released. I've been involved on the DarkSun mailing list for at least six years (I forget exactly, it could be longer), and with a number of official and unofficial projects. Hence, I am intimately familiar with the campaign setting and its "flavor."
And yet I'm still asking those questions! Maybe now you'd like to actually answer them? I did have reasons for asking them, quite beyond being ignorant, as you presume.
So you don't have to scroll up to find them again: why won't paladins work on Athas? How do they completely disregard the flavor of the world? That in mind, how do you think they could then be rewritten for use in a DS campaign, to match and enhance the flavor?
To make my motives more clear: the last is the lynch-pin question. I only ask the first two questions so as to establish a base for you to answer the last question from.
***dont go insulting me on my spelling and grammar, thats when i start taking it to personal...! ok but i am not angry or such..just making a point..
Son, I would suggest you not even begin to criticize me about "insulting you" when you hurl around vindictives and value-judgements like "fool" ("so some fool can go play a palladin") regarding others.
I suggest that if you take observations about the state of your spelling and grammar so personally, it is because you realize how bad it is and are rightly embarrassed about it. But, if you'd like me to actually insult you about your spelling and grammar, I can, and I can get very personal about it. You see, normally I figure if you can not type (or speak) like an adult, you aren't worthy of being treated or spoken to like one. I'm foregoing that for the moment in the hopes that we may yet have some sort of productive discussion.
Why? You have a very strong belief on this issue that, I assume, must be based on some logic, and I'd like to find out what that is; and I also have some specific questions regarding it. Perhaps I'll learn something through this, and/or perhaps you will as well.
So, the ball is in your court, you can either take this as a challenge and an insult, or can deal with it maturely and proceed to openly discuss the issue.
I look forward to your answer.
So, even if I was to add Paladins, my players would be so scared of playing a Paladin, they'd never do it. Am I being too harsh? On a harsh world, in a lethal campaign setting, actually, if I was to allow Paladins, that would be, to me, being too soft on them - because I'm then bending the nature of the setting to better fit a mold it doesn't belong in.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
either city Templars would get them...or the Sorcerer-Kings would make them into their pet toys to torture on their whim. In the desert, when the decision to be honorable, valorous and what-have-you would be challenged by the simple need for survival...Either he'll get killed for attempting to keep the moral highground, or he'll break his vows and ignore his moral standing, and thus become an instant ex-Paladin
Not that I'm disagreeing, but I have to wonder how this differs from being a preserver or druid? Or heck, even just taking a good alignment?
Preservers are constantly tempted to defile for the sake of survival. It's easier, it's more powerful, it's quicker...yet they can not defile because of their personal, moral code...they have chosen to always take the moral high-ground. Templars (to say nothing of the populace) hate them, the SKs want to use them to make mops and skull-goblets for their palace floors, and so forth.
(Hrm, interesting...preservers = Athas' paladins?)
If the paladin has a limited life-span, then so, too, the preserver.
Druids are similar: protect the land against defilers (including the SKs), bandits, raiders, loggers, and the horrors of the deserts. It would seem they would also have a notoriously difficult time surviving. I admit, that's a weaker argument, but not terribly so, in my mind.
Regardless of this question, you'll note this thread isn't about putting paladins whole-cloth into Athas, it's about how to remold paladins to fit Athas. So, I have the same question for you that I posed for Burningspear...how would you do it?
I'm not looking for how it couldn't be done, or how you wouldn't...I'm saying, if you had a gun to your head, if you had to include them, how would you do it to be fair to both players and to keep the style and flavor of Athas intact?
Originally posted by greyorm
I'm not looking for how it couldn't be done, or how you wouldn't...I'm saying, if you had a gun to your head, if you had to include them, how would you do it to be fair to both players and to keep the style and flavor of Athas intact?
- Oronis' agents, for Some Very Good Reason, memory-wiped before going out.
- Lalali-Puy's dupes; her missionaries, convinced that the Oba is going to return Athas to a new Green Age
- Obsessed hunters of the supernatural; tolerated because a) they're going to get themselves killed all on their own, and b) because they might just kill some inconvenient undead before they do
Originally posted by Korvar
Lalali-Puy's dupes; her missionaries, convinced that the Oba is going to return Athas to a new Green Age
Honestly, that is an awesome idea, and probably one of the few that really works without changing the core class.
They gain their paladin powers via the Oba, exactly as do templars, and see it as proof of her divinity. They can heal and cure disease because the Oba is life, and through them, she works her restoration of Athas. They can summon mounts because the creatures of the land are the Forest Goddess' to command.
They go on missions to spread her word and hunt down those who defile the living land and spread dissent in the kingdoms of false gods (the other SKs).
"Only the Oba may defile, for she is a goddess, gathering the life that is hers to give back to her bosom. For mortals to defile is blasphemy, reaching for power that is not theirs, stealing from the goddess!" (and hey, they might even extend that to preservers, once they learn the difference -- it's still stealing from the Oba, sinful and blasphemous -- and the slaying of preservers works out in the Oba's favor, too (no one to challenge her))
Rather than being loners, they have a support network backed by the Oba herself, of converts, (templar) missionaries and fellow paladins, so escaping the clutches of the templarates of other Sorcerer-Kings is much easier when they cause too much trouble in other lands.
They seek out new lands far from the tablelands, where the Forest Goddess has not been heard of, seeking help and spreading the word of the Oba's grace and power; and work towards gathering ancient artifacts of power to help their cause -- the restoration of Athas! (or at least that's what the Oba tells them these things are for)
They protect the sacred forest of Gulg from the scum of Nibenay, who would log the blessed woodlands and stunt the return of the Green Age. They seek out druids to call them to their cause, telling of the Oba's plans to restore the forests for the good of all Athas.
I mean, can you see a bunch of halfling paladins in service to the Oba? A band of vicious little cannibals utterly devoted to the restoration of Athas through the will of the Goddess of the Forest, attacking defilers, performing heroic deeds to prove the words of the Oba to those not yet blessed in devotion to her, passing on the wisdom of the Forest Goddess of Athas? (since halflings have this thing for the wisdom and wise sayings, anyways)
They're good and upstanding and heroic because...the Oba wants them to be. The only way for her to increase her power and achieve her ultimate ends is to show (dupe) the inhabitants of Athas that she stands for a better way of life, and her agents are there to prove it, and die for the cause, for "the Oba's beloved children." I mean, really, what better way to make a name for yourself and earn the respect, worship, and loyalty of others than to stand up for them and make a sacrifice for them.
The people of Athas would be stunned! Bereft of this for so long, their loyalty would be hers: because they "know" she cares about them, that she would give everything for them...her agents did! The Oba protected us, she made a sacrifice for us...so she must be telling the truth.
And it's so perfect...because the paladins actually are good, and believe in what they're doing..."detect lie" and mind-reading psions will uncover nothing but "the truth" held by the paladins: that they're sincere...and yet they are dupes as well, doing good, but ultimately bringing one more defiler greater power.
You have to hand it to the SKs, they're evil and sick, but they're an incredibly cunning and clever bunch of bastards.
Knights of the Oba! They bear the symbol of the twisted tree, upon their bodies, and ritual scars upon their flesh.
Originally posted by greyorm
"Only the Oba may defile, for she is a goddess, gathering the life that is hers to give back to her bosom. For mortals to defile is blasphemy, reaching for power that is not theirs, stealing from the goddess!" (and hey, they might even extend that to preservers, once they learn the difference -- it's still stealing from the Oba, sinful and blasphemous -- and the slaying of preservers works out in the Oba's favor, too (no one to challenge her))
Damn I hate you!
Starting to like this idea now.
Much better than Oronis being the one to call upon, bleah, doesn't fit him IMO.
Anyways, the class would still have to change some, I can't see them written as is fitting in with this idea either.
Don't ask me how to change them though, still contemplating that.
greyorm, you get a
and some cotton candy 
You expressed my idea so much better than I did!
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Damn I hate you!
Starting to like this idea now.
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHA!
{sits back and munches on his cookie}
Anyways, the class would still have to change some, I can't see them written as is fitting in with this idea either.
Ok, so what are your insights into that? I mean, not specific changes you would make (since you don't know), but what about their current write up doesn't work with Athas? I thought I'd hit all the major points, but if I missed some, fill me in.
Originally posted by greyorm
Ok, so what are your insights into that? I mean, not specific changes you would make (since you don't know), but what about their current write up doesn't work with Athas? I thought I'd hit all the major points, but if I missed some, fill me in.
I just thought of something, that *might* invalidate my previous statements.
1. Paladin Spells - where would they get them from, and why. Every spellcaster on Athas gets their power from some tangable source. I cannot see how it would even be possible that any Dragon King would have the ability to grant positive enrgy effects to anyone. And I can't see Oronis doing anything that could eventually lead the other Dragon Kings to becoming aware of his existence - and believe me, they'd probably have some way of determining where the power's coming from. So, without those options, where would they get it from. and no flimsy idea of getting power from "goodness" and whatnot.
2. Special Abilities - Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of courage, Divine Health, Turn Undead, Remove Disease. These are all effects based on Positive Energy. Of which, you would need to have a defined source of poitive enrgy that they could then gain these effects/abilities from.
3. Special Mount - as horses are not in existence on Athas, this would have to be slightly altered. I can see Crodlu being the replacement, which to me would be an obvious change.
4. Code of Conduct - This would have to be *much* more lenient than your typical Paladin.
--------
Ok, all in all, basically everything that makes a "Paladin" a "Paladin" would have to be changed. However, there is a possibility. Change the Paladins to Lawful Evil. Have them be a sort of "Warrior caste" of the respective city Templarates. The bodyguards and protectors of the Templars, and physical enforcers of the laws. Maybe they are actually called Paladins - which would still make the Templarates have a sort of twisted-church feel to them. they also do the bidding of the Sorcerer-Kings as the Templars do. Use the rules as presented in Unearthed Arcana (which is under the Open Gaming License, so the gamesystem mechanics could be included into the athas.org documentation, or be put up online legally, with the text being rewritten for Athas).
to me, this would give the Paladin more of an Athasian feel make them spontaneous casters, with their limited spell list anyway, I don't think it's much of a problem - however it may have to be reviewed to balance out. I'd suggest looking at the spell progression of the Assassin PrC from the DMG for a basis, as the Assassin also only has 4 levels of spells, and is a spontaneous spellcaster - but use the list of spells as in the Unearthed Arcana for the Paladin of Tyranny - maybe adding/swapping some of the spells from DS3 into it as well.
Ok.... After a few minutes, I'm starting to see a way for Paladins to be added. They wouldn't be bastions of honor and goodness, but be the iron, military fist of the Sorcerer-Kings to ensure their rule. With the exception of Oronis, who I guess would have Lawful Good ones, popssibly as a form of military force protecting New Kurn, and possibly his Aarokocra allies. guess I won't get shot in the head after all. For that matter, maybe Daskinor has Paladins of Slaughter, who are Chaotic Evil. I actually can envision Lawful Evil Dray Paladins of Tyranny in Dregoth's army.
Ok. So now I've come up with ways for my own campaigns how to include both Sorcerers and Paladins.... perverted and twisted into the Athasian perspective as they are.
Another possibility for Paladins is to erase their spellcasting ability and replace it with something else, ala the Complete Warrior. Just need to adjust the abilities for a Lawful Evil (or Chaotic Evil for Daskinor & leave it alone for Oronis) Paladin. Actually, I like this better than giving them spells, as I'm really big on keeping spellcasting very restricted on Athas all together. I donm't even let my Rangers cast spells (using the Complete Warrior non-spellcasting Ranger variant).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I just thought of something, that *might* invalidate my previous statements.
1. Paladin Spells - where would they get them from, and why. Every spellcaster on Athas gets their power from some tangable source. I cannot see how it would even be possible that any Dragon King would have the ability to grant positive enrgy effects to anyone.
I don't have my books in front of me... Can Templars (Clerics of the Sorcerer-Kings) cast "heal" spells? Are any of their spells "positive energy effects"?
Bear in mind that Sorcerer-Kings can grant Clerical magic through their "elemental vorteces", which basically means it's not the Defiling/Dragon/IkkyNastiness-related Sorcerer King granting the spells, but whatever the elemental vortex is attached to...
Originally posted by Korvar
I don't have my books in front of me... Can Templars (Clerics of the Sorcerer-Kings) cast "heal" spells? Are any of their spells "positive energy effects"?
Bear in mind that Sorcerer-Kings can grant Clerical magic through their "elemental vorteces", which basically means it's not the Defiling/Dragon/IkkyNastiness-related Sorcerer King granting the spells, but whatever the elemental vortex is attached to...
You're missing the point of this. Even PHB Evil Clerics can cast healing spells, However, other positive-energy effects, like turning/destroying undead, are not theirs to use. I see templars of evil Sorcerer-Kings as having the same situation with positive vs. negative energy - regardless of the Templar's alignment. Same with those of Oronis having the powers for positive energy that a "good" cleric from the PHB would have. So, Templars of Dragon Kings rebuke or control undead, while those of Oronis tunr or destroy undead. Of course, I also simply disalow my elemental or paraelemental clerics from being able to ever rebuke or control undead, claiming that undeath is an abomination to nature and that the clerics of Athas are champions of the basic building blocks of nature itself.
However, if Paladins of Evil Sorcerer-Kings were possible, I'd also rule the same situation applies with them. And thus, the Unearthed Arcanas variant Paladin classes could be very useful in this regard - as the adjustments from positive-based effects that a Lawful Good paladin would have are changed to negative-based ones.
I make such distinctions because the Sorcerer-King effectively is the source of the templars (and possibly paladins') power. And the personal motivations and moral standing of the Sorcerer-King affects what power these followers recieve, almost like putting a filter on the energy flow.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Paladin Spells - where would they get them from, and why
The spells? Same place templars get them from: their SK. As to the "why," I laid that out above regarding paladins being in service to the Oba and "the Restoration" to be brought by the living goddess.
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of courage, Divine Health, Turn Undead, Remove Disease. These are all effects based on Positive Energy. I cannot see {that any} Dragon King would have the ability to grant positive enrgy effects to anyone.
That's a good question, and a definite problem! But can't the templars cast healing spells and similar? So I'd suggest the ability draws from the same source as the templar's use of spells with similar effects, and not worry about it too much.
Or perhaps the Oba specially "blesses" each of her paladins -- enchanting them so that elemental energies flow through them, resulting in the same effects you see with the paladins of other worlds. It opens up a conduit for him, allows him to draw elemental spell energy through the Oba (like a templar).
However it actually works, the paladins certainly have no idea themselves, and like the Oba's templars and the populace, it is simply because "she is a goddess." I see no reason we "really need to know" either, since using the bond with an Elemental Vortex allowing worshippers to cast spells (even those that are non-elemental) and turn/rebuke undead is accepted and a fine explanation in this case as well.
Special Mount - as horses are not in existence on Athas, this would have to be slightly altered. I can see Crodlu being the replacement, which to me would be an obvious change.
Yes, you're right, of course. That's so obviously a minor cosmetic change I didn't even consider it to be a problem, and the solution immediately apparent. I should have spelled it out, better, however.
Code of Conduct - This would have to be *much* more lenient than your typical Paladin.
I see no reason why. Reference my previous post(s) on this subject.
Addition:
[b]the personal motivations and moral standing of the Sorcerer-King affects what power these followers recieve, almost like putting a filter on the energy flow.[b]
However, that is obviously not the case, since the SK can only restrict or allow access to the actual forces behind the spells, not control the spells which are granted (or even know which ones are). One's SK is an on-off switch, not a power converter.
Hrm...damn, I just read over the templar description again in Athas.org's conversion document. I must be recalling the Paizo version regarding the above. Canon conflict. If we take Athas.org as the final word, then I can see your point. That's a serious problem, of course.
On the other hand, there's nothing stated about templars not being able to cast cure (and positive energy) spells, so there's a discrepancy in how spells were handled and how turning/rebuking undead was handled in reference to one another in the Athas.org document.
Originally posted by greyorm
That's a good question, and a definite problem! But can't the templars cast healing spells and similar? So I'd suggest the ability draws from the same source as the templar's use of spells with similar effects, and not worry about it too much.
Well, it's true Templars can do that. Just like it's true that PHB evil clerics can cast healing spells. They can use the positive energy, but are much more inclined to use negative energy - like harm spells (for the PHB clerics), or to rebuke & control undead instead of turning & destroying them. to me, this is a significant problem in having "Lawful Good" Paladins following a "Lawful Evil" creature, like Lalai-Puy. Remember - the Oba isn't *really* out for the restoration of Athas, she's got her own plans for things, and they are to benefit her, regardless of what she claims publicly. Like every other Dragon King, she's evil to the core.
Or perhaps the Oba specially "blesses" each of her paladins -- enchanting them so that elemental energies flow through them, resulting in the same effects you see with the paladins of other worlds. It opens up a conduit for him, allows him to draw elemental spell energy through the Oba (like a templar).
Once again.... this seems...contrived. Making an order of Lawful Good followers twho have such a strong tie to positive energy following a Lawful Evil character who is very much a part of Negative Energy (Arcane defiling magic, in it's extreme) just doesn't logically make sense with me - regardless of the Oba's apparent "intentions". Now, if they were Paladins of Tyranny, which are Lawful Evil, and were pretending, like their "goddess" to be good, that's something else entirely.
However it actually works, the paladins certainly have no idea themselves, and like the Oba's templars and the populace, it is simply because "she is a goddess." I see no reason we "really need to know" either, since using the bond with an Elemental Vortex allowing worshippers to cast spells (even those that are non-elemental) and turn/rebuke undead is accepted and a fine explanation in this case as well.
But I don't see her templars even being able to turn/destroy undead. I think that the tie she has with the elemental vortex is tainted, and becomes filtered based on her own motivations - so if she's evil, then it is stronger with negative energy than positive. Oronis is good, so his is more positive than negative.
Yes, you're right, of course. That's so obviously a minor cosmetic change I didn't even consider it to be a problem, and the solution immediately apparent. I should have spelled it out, better, however.
I see no reason why. Reference my previous post(s) on this subject.
Addition:
However, that is obviously not the case, since the SK can only restrict or allow access to the actual forces behind the spells, not control the spells which are granted (or even know which ones are). One's SK is an on-off switch, not a power converter.
Hrm...damn, I just read over the templar description again in Athas.org's conversion document. I must be recalling the Paizo version regarding the above. Canon conflict. If we take Athas.org as the final word, then I can see your point. That's a serious problem, of course.
On the other hand, there's nothing stated about templars not being able to cast cure (and positive energy) spells, so there's a discrepancy in how spells were handled and how turning/rebuking undead was handled in reference to one another in the Athas.org document. [/b]
Addition:the personal motivations and moral standing of the Sorcerer-King affects what power these followers recieve, almost like putting a filter on the energy flow.
However, that is obviously not the case, since the SK can only restrict or allow access to the actual forces behind the spells, not control the spells which are granted (or even know which ones are). One's SK is an on-off switch, not a power converter.
Hrm...damn, I just read over the templar description again in Athas.org's conversion document. I must be recalling the Paizo version regarding the above. Canon conflict. If we take Athas.org as the final word, then I can see your point. That's a serious problem, of course.
On the other hand, there's nothing stated about templars not being able to cast cure (and positive energy) spells, so there's a discrepancy in how spells were handled and how turning/rebuking undead was handled in reference to one another in the Athas.org document.
Re-read about positive & negative energy, and it's effects on good & evil clerics in the Player's Handbook. Those that are good have stronger access to healing spells and can turn/destroy undead. However, it doesn't mean they *can't* cast inflict spells. Just like Evil PHB Clerics can cast cure spells, but are better at casting inflict ones. So, I'd say that Templars could cast either. They don't have to worry about the spontanous casting of either, as they spontaniously cast any spell by virtue of their class. And I've said time and again - the Paizo articles are C R A P . There's, maybe, 2-5% of those articles that have any merit. The rest of them are about as useful as toilet paper. It's unfortunate, as basically Paizo blew a really awesome chance to show off Dark Sun, and they dropped the ball, hard. but, what's done is done. and now there is an entire group of people who believe them to be good articles, and are corrupting the real Dark Sun with this bizarro distortion that many have, courtiously called "watered down".
I now feel that there may be a place for Paladins - but one using the variant rules presented in Unearthed Arcana, giving them a more Dark Sun feel, by using (primarily) the Paladins of Tyranny, while also using the Paladins of Slaughter for Daskinor, and the "noraml" Paladins for Oronis (if they remain in and around New Kurn as sort of protectors). Making a group of paladins who are following a Dragon King, and are good, but are unaware of the actual source of their power, seems very contrieved, and feels like an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Re-read about positive & negative energy, and it's effects on good & evil clerics in the Player's Handbook.
You're correct. I should have double-checked that. Given this information, honestly, I do see your argument as valid, and it causes serious problems with implementation of my idea. Which is disappointing.
However, if I were to take what the Paizo conversion document says is canon for this situation (regarding the SKs, spells, and templars), the problem goes away. So, ultimately, it depends on which ruling a person decides to use in this situation.
And I've said time and again - the Paizo articles are C R A P .
Eh. That's overstating the case. So, whatever.
Pure value judgement.
I now feel that there may be a place for Paladins - but one using the variant rules presented in Unearthed Arcana
If that's your thing, then go for it. I'm not down with that option personally, since I'm not much of one for playing (or allowing) evil characters, but there's nothing stopping you from implementing it. It's certainly a workable solution.
Now, if they were Paladins of Tyranny, which are Lawful Evil, and were pretending, like their "goddess" to be good, that's something else entirely.
That really wouldn't work with the write-up I had above, as the minute you cast "Detect Lie" or have your thoughts read by one of an infinite number of psionicists, your organization is outed. I mean, come on, these are nth-thousand year old sorcerers we're talking about here, they wouldn't make that sort of beginner mistake.
Making a group of paladins who are following a Dragon King, and are good, but are unaware of the actual source of their power, seems very contrieved, and feels like an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Are you kidding? No, seriously. Double-crosses and betrayals, great evils using the best of intentions of others to work their own ends is the stuff great literature is made of! For example, if you have read the Silmarillion, the elves, the most noble of creatures, are subtly swayed into doing Morgoth's dirty work for him by his lies.
Athas is all about corruption, destruction, and betrayal. It would be the ultimate horror for a paladin of the Oba to suddenly realize all the good he's been doing all those years was really in service to a false goddess, perpetuating her terrible schemes and increasing her grip on Athas. Sealing its doom rather than bringing its salvation.
Compared to a bunch of evil guys running around lying about what they stand for...well, the lying evil folks cliche pales in comparison.
Besides, I don't think DarkSun should be so clearly moralistically divided a world as, say, the Forgotten Realms -- where good is good, and evil is evil, and everyone knows it.
Now, if you don't want to go the route of innocent dupe, there's more than enough room for the conflicted hero: making the best of a bad situation, trying to play the odds and come out on top, dealing with the ends justifying the means (serving a defiler for a cause you believe is greater than the sin).
Besides, no one ever wants stories about being an evil liar; they like stories that resonate with them, about people like them, good people trapped in bad situations -- or at least stories with some sort of moral uncertainty to it (not just evil people being evil). Besides, as stated above, the SKs wouldn't implement anything that would become so obviously transparent to such a large portion of the citizenry, they're far too intelligent and have been around far too long.
(Which gets into issues of all templars being evil, maintaining state-sponsored religious truth, and so forth -- but that's another thread.)
Originally posted by greyorm
You're correct. I should have double-checked that. Given this information, honestly, I do see your argument as valid, and it causes serious problems with implementation of my idea. Which is disappointing.
However, if I were to take what the Paizo conversion document says is canon for this situation (regarding the SKs, spells, and templars), the problem goes away. So, ultimately, it depends on which ruling a person decides to use in this situation.
To each their own.
If that's your thing, then go for it. I'm not down with that option personally, since I'm not much of one for playing (or allowing) evil characters, but there's nothing stopping you from implementing it. It's certainly a workable solution.
Well, considering the likelyhood of my players even being Templars (which, I feel should be under a similar alignment restriction as the PHB cleric - in that they should be no more than 1 step away in alignment from their master - so Lawful Evil SK's could have LE, LN or NE templars) are rare when I'm not playing an evil campaign, it's a non-issue with me. However, I do love running Evil campaigns from time to time. The most interesting aspect of that for me is that Evil characters usually live in a very selfish world, and they don't congregate together for much, usually resulting in backstabbing and betrayal. This means there's a lack of real support to an evil character, usually. dark Sun is an exception, especially when we're dealing with the city Templarates and such, but even so, your buddy Templar might want to let you die so that he gets the promotion instead. This is, to me, an avenue of roleplaying that isn't as available with good campaigns - where the adventuring party has several options for help and sanctuary (well, in Dark Sun, I shouldn't say several, but there's a few more than for evil characters). This is compounded further when you throw a Defiler into the mix. I also work off of the idea that a Defiler cannot be good - period. I simply don't allow this in my campaigns. They can be any non-good alignment. Preservers can be any alignment, good, neutral or evil - doesn't matter. but I believe that the very act of defiling corrupts the soul and is inherently evil - and have already had an extensive arguement with someone on this subject before in these forums, and we could never see eye-to-eye on it. However, in my games, this ruling stands.
That really wouldn't work with the write-up I had above, as the minute you cast "Detect Lie" or have your thoughts read by one of an infinite number of psionicists, your organization is outed. I mean, come on, these are nth-thousand year old sorcerers we're talking about here, they wouldn't make that sort of beginner mistake.
Come on, there's plenty of things that could be done to prevent such beginner-style effects from being cut off - like a divine focus that is actually a magical item crafted by the Sorcerer-King using an epic ability that wards the wielder from such things. Then only another SK, or another Epic character (potentially) could detect it. And yes, I know that's contrieved, especially for me, but I'm tired and it's an idea that popped in my head this second.
Are you kidding? No, seriously. Double-crosses and betrayals, great evils using the best of intentions of others to work their own ends is the stuff great literature is made of! For example, if you have read the Silmarillion, the elves, the most noble of creatures, are subtly swayed into doing Morgoth's dirty work for him by his lies.
there's a difference here between making an order of lawful good characters be dup[ed or tricked into working for evil, and Morgoth's twising/distorting of the Elves to do evil (and eventually transforming many into Orcs to make better servants) The Elves, even those of Middle-Earth, aren't 100% Lawful Good. Paladins are. They have to be. It's kinda in the class definition, and a fundamental part of being a Paladin. Unearthed Arcana provides a useful alternative to this - by having Paladins of Slaughter, Freedom and Tyranny (and calling the PHB ones "of Honor") It's been a while (LONG while) since I read the Silmarillion, and may be a longer while still, as that book is a very hard read (too much like a history book, which was Tolkien's intent), and I have to be in the right frame of mind to have the desire to open it. I know where you're getting at here, and can see your point. I just don't think it's a justifiable one (yet).
Athas is all about corruption, destruction, and betrayal. It would be the ultimate horror for a paladin of the Oba to suddenly realize all the good he's been doing all those years was really in service to a false goddess, perpetuating her terrible schemes and increasing her grip on Athas. Sealing its doom rather than bringing its salvation.
As I said it is a decent, and relatively cool frame of mind for this - but I think that would possibly be better served as some sort of Prestige Class or something rather than the base paladin class, y'know? Maybe not. But it sounds like something that isn't very fitting for a base class to be defined by. It's too specific to a single Sorcerer-Queen (Lalai-Puy) - which would make it very unique, considering how no other base divine-spellcaster class is like this. The Templars are generalized across the board to be useable by any of the Sorcerer-Kings. the Druids have their Spirits of the Land. Clerics have their respective elements & paraelements. Even rangers have lesser spirits (if you make them spellcasting, which I don't for my Dark Sun campaigns). But the Paladins you have defined aren't generalized, they are specific to a single Sorcerer-Queen. This makes them stand out in my mind as more along the lines of a Prestige Class than as a base class.
Compared to a bunch of evil guys running around lying about what they stand for...well, the lying evil folks cliche pales in comparison.
Well, that was sometrhing thrown in at the end. Personally, I'd have them very much be known as being the guardians & warriors of the Sorcerer-Kings' Templarates. They'd be a feared and respected order within their cities. They'd also have a similar short life expectancy as Templars do if discovered within another Sorcerer-King's city.
Besides, I don't think DarkSun should be so clearly moralistically divided a world as, say, the Forgotten Realms -- where good is good, and evil is evil, and everyone knows it.
Actually, I don't make them be very strongly defined moralistically. but the Paladin is a moralistically and motivationally defined class. Period. You're the one who wanted the class in the setting, so don't complain when I stick to the strictures of that class and try bringing it into the setting. The class itself is very strict and very much defined by their alignment. More than any other class in the system. even Barbarians or Monks (chaotic or lawful) aren't as restrictive as the Paladin is when it comes to alignment.
Now, if you don't want to go the route of innocent dupe, there's more than enough room for the conflicted hero: making the best of a bad situation, trying to play the odds and come out on top, dealing with the ends justifying the means (serving a defiler for a cause you believe is greater than the sin).
Ok, the conflicted hero is now dropping to a personal level. this would be an individual going through this, not every single member of a base class. I could see it for a character, but not an entire order. a single character who is a conflicted hero makes sense. Everyone of that same class being conflicted heroes sounds contrived.
Besides, no one ever wants stories about being an evil liar; they like stories that resonate with them, about people like them, good people trapped in bad situations -- or at least stories with some sort of moral uncertainty to it (not just evil people being evil). Besides, as stated above, the SKs wouldn't implement anything that would become so obviously transparent to such a large portion of the citizenry, they're far too intelligent and have been around far too long.
No arguements here. I always love running campaigns where my players go that extra mile to make a real complex, and very impressive character, that goes beyond the numbers on the character sheet and makes a personality and life for that character. I frequently reward them more often for their troubles too when they do this.
(Which gets into issues of all templars being evil, maintaining state-sponsored religious truth, and so forth -- but that's another thread.)
I don't think all templars are evil. But I think they are no more than 1 step away in alignment from their Sorcerer-King. For most this means they are LE, LN or NE. Daskinor (and I think technically, in 2e Dregoth also, but in my setting I have him be lawful) CE, CN or NE. And for Oronis it's LG, NG or LN. simply following the ideas presented in the PHB for clerics, and adapting it to the Templar class from athas.org.
Now, you asked me to come up with a way to present the Paladin, one that would work and possibly fit for Dark Sun. then you disregard my answer, or complain about the reasons I did what I did. So, let me ask you - did you want me to actually come up with a solution, or did you just simply want me to be a "yes" man, and agree with your solution, regardless of how I really felt about it?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, I like this better than giving them spells, as I'm really big on keeping spellcasting very restricted on Athas all together. I donm't even let my Rangers cast spells (using the Complete Warrior non-spellcasting Ranger variant).
You're not the only one, but I will probably use the old spellless ranger from athas.org, always liked that variant and wish they would go back to it.
Originally posted by greyorm
Ok, so what are your insights into that? I mean, not specific changes you would make (since you don't know), but what about their current write up doesn't work with Athas? I thought I'd hit all the major points, but if I missed some, fill me in.
After reading what xlorep has to say on the issue, I pretty much agree with him.
At this point, I think I'm going to leave them out due to complications, or maybe make them a PrC. Not sure yet.
It was a good idea though Raven.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Now, you asked me to come up with a way to present the Paladin, one that would work and possibly fit for Dark Sun. then you disregard my answer, or complain about the reasons I did what I did. So, let me ask you - did you want me to actually come up with a solution, or did you just simply want me to be a "yes" man, and agree with your solution, regardless of how I really felt about it?
Sorry about the short reply, no time today: no, I wasn't looking for a yes-man answer. The truth is, I don't consider the alternate alignment paladins to be paladins, so I didn't really consider it a solution.
And I'll note your posts did more than simply present your version of the paladin solution, they dissected my own version as unplayable; if you consider my defense of my choices to be complaining about your presentation an alternate version, I can't say you're seeing the two sides of the conversation as seperate as they are.
Regardless, you showed how my solution doesn't work as well as I thought it did. Am I disregarding that? No, not at all. I even admited to it above.
The only answer I can see is that is going to make us both happy here is that the solution which works for you doesn't work for me, and vice versa. We obviously have two different styles and expectations of play -- you don't mind evil campaigns, I can't stand them. That's going to seriously color what we each consider to be an acceptable solution to the dilemma.
So, I'm sorry if my posts seemed to indicate that I was disregarding or complaining about your answers. That was assuredly not my intention. Again, my apologies.
I think BELIEF itself should have power. Point is, in Athas, the gods are dead, gone or didn't exist, depending on how you play the setting. Thus people have beliefs in raw elemental forces, which are understandable.
There is no "ancestor worship" in most cultures due to lack of history (fragemented society) and the Black/Grey screw up palanar contact. Indeed does anyone's soul escape or is allowed to endure after death, hm?
You can think of the Grey and the Black "screwing up" contact to the other planes, hence, in any Dark Sun variant, it drastically interferes with access t o the Astral and Inner Planes, but especially the Astral, ergo, gods and such have little chance to interact.
Paladins, 1st and foremost are *NOT CLERICS!*, ugh, the insistance on paladin's following a deity is improper. Paladins, like rangers and monks, follow a moral and ethical belief system, which MAYBE personified or championed by a god.
They are *NOT* shiny knights on white steads following Christianity, though that's what they come from ;)
In Darksun, there is no god to champion, help, believe in, promote etc, paladins and thier beliefs. This doesn't mean they can't get spell power, it just means, de facto, it's incredibly rare for paladins to exist at all. Darksun doesn't lend itself to isnitlling lawful good morality and ehtics ot the extreme, far from it, and there is NO one to see as a role model, where as monks and rangers you can (unarmed fighting is good in Athas, and rangers are hunters..by the way, I find monks having to be LAWFUL also foolish, note one of the greatest exponents of "Monk" style unarmed combat and abilities is King Monkey, who was very definately Chaotic)
So your odds of ever finding a Paldian on Athas is as likely as prolonged rain in the Tablelands, and the chances of them surviving in a desperate, brutal world, longer than a few years is even slimmer....
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
I like dthe point, shown in 2nd ed, that spells up to level 2, didn't require the intervention of a supernatural agency, merely for the person to have BELIEF.
But we're working with 3rd Edition, not 2nd edition. Or more to the point, 3.5e. Every other spellcaster on Athas has a well-defined, and tangible source of their power, not just a concept like "righteousness". Wizards have life-energy, clerics have the elemental & paraelemental planes. Templars have their Sorcerer-Kings (who siphon from the elemental & paraelemental planes). Druids have Spirits of the Land (who gain their power through the pact of Earth-Air-Fire-Water that allows them to use power from all four elements together), and Rangers have the lesser spirits (if you permit Rangers to have spells, as presented in the athas.org write-up). See, all nice and neat. Doesn't matter the level of the spells - they use these sources from 0-level spells on up. Belief isn't enough - on Athas. There isn't a "divine pool of energy" (if you will) on Athas, as is on other worlds where gods exist.
I think BELIEF itself should have power. Point is, in Athas, the gods are dead, gone or didn't exist, depending on how you play the setting. Thus people have beliefs in raw elemental forces, which are understandable.
Well, the elemental beliefs were around since the Blue Age. Divine Power comes from the Elemental and Paraelemental planes on Athas. Period. Every Divine spellcaster traces their power back to these, so, Paladins *must* use the same in order to be a Divine spellcaster on Athas. Otherwise, they aren't matching the setting, and you begin to bend the setting to fit the class instead.
There is no "ancestor worship" in most cultures due to lack of history (fragemented society) and the Black/Grey screw up palanar contact. Indeed does anyone's soul escape or is allowed to endure after death, hm?
Actually, there is ancestor worship. doesn't do much, but there *is* such a thing here - in certian cultures. The souls are absorbed into the Gray.
You can think of the Grey and the Black "screwing up" contact to the other planes, hence, in any Dark Sun variant, it drastically interferes with access t o the Astral and Inner Planes, but especially the Astral, ergo, gods and such have little chance to interact.
There is no Astral or Ethereal planes for Athas - the planar designs and layout is documented in Preservers & Defilers. There is Athas, the black, The Gray and The Hollow - but the latter is more of a Demiplane, really.
Paladins, 1st and foremost are *NOT CLERICS!*, ugh, the insistance on paladin's following a deity is improper. Paladins, like rangers and monks, follow a moral and ethical belief system, which MAYBE personified or championed by a god.
Paladins are Divine Spellcasters. As such, there are certian rules for ALL divine spellcasters to follow. They are also more closely tied to Clerics than to Druids, just as Rangers are more closely connected to Druids than to Clerics, based on their spell lists and the overall "gist" of their powers. Paladins, as written in the PHB are connected stronger to Positive Energy - hense their healing abilities and ability to turn/destory undead. this cannot be in dispute, as it is very well defined as such. Defenders of the Faith also gave many clues to that Paladins have a similar effect with positive & negative energy as Clerics do - but you don't see Negative-energy Paladins as they are restricted to Lawful Good alignments, while Clerics can be any alignment, based on their Deity. Paladins can, in fact, follow a deity. And they are usually depicted as doing so - in most literature. So locking them to be as such isn't far fetched. Templars, the case can be made, are not clerics as well - but they do follow many of the same rules when pertained to spellcasting. I'm simply using the same precidents already provided for Divine spellcasting, and applying them to the Paladin. As such, the Paladin should be adjusted to fit Dark Sun, not Dark Sun redesigned to fit the Paladin. Hense, my solutio, using the paladin variants from Unearthed Arcana.
They are *NOT* shiny knights on white steads following Christianity, though that's what they come from ;)
But that's exactly what they are depicted as in the PHB.
In Darksun, there is no god to champion, help, believe in, promote etc, paladins and thier beliefs. This doesn't mean they can't get spell power, it just means, de facto, it's incredibly rare for paladins to exist at all. Darksun doesn't lend itself to isnitlling lawful good morality and ehtics ot the extreme, far from it, and there is NO one to see as a role model, where as monks and rangers you can (unarmed fighting is good in Athas, and rangers are hunters..by the way, I find monks having to be LAWFUL also foolish, note one of the greatest exponents of "Monk" style unarmed combat and abilities is King Monkey, who was very definately Chaotic)
Actually, by the very nature of how magic works on Athas, it does mean they can't get spell power, unless you define a tangible source for them. and it doesn't lend itself for Lawful good - which is why I gave the chance to use the variations presented in UA.
So your odds of ever finding a Paldian on Athas is as likely as prolonged rain in the Tablelands, and the chances of them surviving in a desperate, brutal world, longer than a few years is even slimmer....
Exactly my original point. However, I was told that rather than showing the reasons why it "can't" be done, I should show a way it can be done. Which is what I did. I personally won't permit Paladins except for maybe those Evil campaigns I like to occasionally run, when I open up and have groups that have a higher percentage of Templars & defilers in the mix, so a Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter could potentially fit right in.
The Oba's Prophets work very well with my style of gaming- SKs are the best deceivers on Athas and the whole concept fits very well. cut and paste paladins from the PHB for this one.
Hammanu's Hammers (just an example) are also an interesting add. Clearly Lawful Neutral by my book but that's ok. Lawful evil takes active twisting of law to further your own power. I see these guys as more absolute enforcers of existing law without bias one way or another. In fact, Hammanu might sponser these guys just to keep his templarate in line! Devout followers with the ability to more directly enforce the will of a SK....fits beautifully. the Paladin gets a few minor tweaks, but that's not that big a deal.
The main issue I saw being discussed was how the Code would be applied, if at all. With the Prophets that's not an issue. Since I do not allow pc's to play evil characters that leaves the Hammers as a non-issue as well.
Thank you for such a lively discussion and the addition to my campaign!
Originally posted by mekillot
this discussion has swayed me. I was dead set against Paladins in my campaign, but I am now reconsidering.
The Oba's Prophets work very well with my style of gaming- SKs are the best deceivers on Athas and the whole concept fits very well. cut and paste paladins from the PHB for this one.
Hammanu's Hammers (just an example) are also an interesting add. Clearly Lawful Neutral by my book but that's ok. Lawful evil takes active twisting of law to further your own power. I see these guys as more absolute enforcers of existing law without bias one way or another. In fact, Hammanu might sponser these guys just to keep his templarate in line! Devout followers with the ability to more directly enforce the will of a SK....fits beautifully. the Paladin gets a few minor tweaks, but that's not that big a deal.
The main issue I saw being discussed was how the Code would be applied, if at all. With the Prophets that's not an issue. Since I do not allow pc's to play evil characters that leaves the Hammers as a non-issue as well.
Thank you for such a lively discussion and the addition to my campaign!
Interesting idea. I do see a point with Hamanu's Paladins. And from that I could possibly extrapolate the possibility for the Oba, but I'm still thinking that a Paladin who is 2 steps or more in alignment from the Sorcerer-Monarch that they get their power from (wittingly or otherwise) doesn't seem right. It just doesn't fit the mold for Divine magic and it's influence, based on extrapolation from the existing divine magic underlying mechanics & game system defined by the d20 system.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Why is it necessary to shoehorn paladins in to Darksun? Templars already provide the role, and completely selfless crusaders don't fit. The sorceror kings aren't benevolent monarchs, they are ruthless dictators, and they do not inspire love from their citizens. A paladin serving a SK is quite possibly the most delusional individual ever. How would they get protection from evil, when they would gain their powers from a physical embodyment of it? What would they crusade against? There is nothing *to* crusade against besides the enemies of the king, and that role already has soldiers and templars. While you guys are at it, you might as well find a way to fit gods in, and add some drow for good measure.
Hey, I didn't want them myself. However, I provided a means and method to include them so that the class could effectively fit into Dark sun without losing the overall flavor of them, and keeping to the divine magic system, as well as providing a tangible source for their magical power. Raven had a different idea. Personally, I'm not going to put much thought into it myself beyond that which I've alreayd posted here, because I still am not thrilled by the idea of a Paladin on Dark Sun. My solution solved the protection from evil and other bizarre problems in the fitting of them here, because I use the variant rules from Unearthed Arcana. Who knows, I might implement a class and write it up on my site when I get it turned back on again. I might even do Sorcerers, just for the heck of it, and maybe even get a good base class-modification for the Monks and Soulblades so that they are more balanced with the rest of the classes. Why have so many there, when the other classes aailable are really all that's needed? It's great to give players a freedom of choice on the development of their Characters, at least in my opinion.. There also may be some merit in the idea that all of the PHB classes should be represented in Dark Sun, as it is a D&D game setting. Even if they are a bit different, possibly showing the distortion & corruption the world's overall history have had on these classes - like the Bard, or my version of Paladins could represent - they, like Elves, Dwarves and Halflings sound like hey are part of a "normal" Fantasy setting, but a look at them, and one finds they are not the same thing as other settings depict. But that's a minor reason, and hardly a justification. I guess the biggest reason is it may be fun to do so. And to do it far better than Paizo did in their Magazine articles.
Also the three drajian PrCs from City-State of Draj, the Eagle, Jaguar and Arrow Knights are pretty close to paladins of war or ruthlesness or something.
Most paladin-like classes in DS should be PrCs IMO, evil and working for the SKs as part of the templerate, like a Templar Knight.
A new force has appeared somewhere on Athas; it's existance is unknown. It/ they have found a way to imbune a number of beople with special powers and desires - those with these powers know nothing of this. The new force is hoping that the wave Avengers will rise up and topple/weaken the Sorcer Kings…paving the way for a new regime to enter Athas.
I do realise that this is could be a rather campaign changing element but it does present a fiew interesting posobilitys…
Please excuse me (and politely correct me) with any mistakes that I make about Athas, as I am a DS newbe. (I do not, at present, have the dragon that contains the info on the Avenger either).
Game mechanics points:
*No mount (unless I'm mistaken)
*Spells come from something compleetly diferent (or someone else has rigged up one of those energy chanelers that the SK's have).
Have fun.
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*** it is not meant to be rewritten just to make the game more "playable" so some fool can go play a palladin in athas..
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I wasn't aware that if someone dares change or alter anything about Athas, they're fools and idiots? I thought part of the lure of RPGs and their settings was the ability to alter them to suit our own group's needs and desires, rather than slavishly adhere to someone else's ideas?
***with stating "some fool" i meant that anybody who wanted to change the setting as it is would be a "fool" cos i dont see a real need to do so, but that does not mean i regard all people as fools, if they want to change theyre campaign to that end and have fun with it go ahead but dont make a basic setting of it, keep it in as house rules....
You'll note, I asked "Why?" Your opinion, thus far, has not made that point particularly clear. "Because I don't like it," isn't an answer, or at least it isn't a very good answer.
***good or not good it states my feelings about breaking the flavor of the original setting.
Why shouldn't they be there? You appear to be saying because it will "ruin the story" (or rather, the setting flavor), but why? Certainly the paladin can be altered enough that it fits the flavor of DarkSun? Exactly as the traditional races and classes were altered to create/fit the flavor of the setting? How does matching the flavor with an addition ruin the flavor?
So while I agree that "[the] story line...should be kept in line as it was" is a good supporting argument for not including certain items (such as halfling wizards*), I fail to see how adding new classes or races will change the whole flavor of the game if the style of the setting is kept regarding those additions?
How, if we change the flavor of the paladin to match that of DarkSun, will it upset or ruin the flavor of the world? Could you explain that for me? (Yes, I keep asking...it is a very important point of the discussion)
***if someone needs to have a feeling of justice and righteousness then go play in another world..no need to make a palladin in athas.
and if u do need to bring a new class into darksun dont call it paladin but use another nomer to identify the class, so the feel of the "palladin" does not stick to the new class..
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***did u ever read the original setting?, it seems unlikely that u did coz otherwise u would not ask such questions..
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An Ad Hominem, an excellent dodge of my question, but completely unacceptable as such.
***it defines what i regard as the original setting and the feeling i have towards it, not saying that u r not right in your own way towards darksun as everybody is entiteld to have its own mind..
but if u know the setting so well i cannot reasonably understand the need for extra added changes...
I've been playing DarkSun since junior high school...I bought the original boxed set right when it was released. I've been involved on the DarkSun mailing list for at least six years (I forget exactly, it could be longer), and with a number of official and unofficial projects. Hence, I am intimately familiar with the campaign setting and its "flavor."
So you don't have to scroll up to find them again: why won't paladins work on Athas?
***palladins as is r not compatible with athas 's mindset as survival is to high a priority to begin phylosophising (did not spell that right i know.) about wrong or right...
How do they completely disregard the flavor of the world? ***moral issue as stated above
That in mind, how do you think they could then be rewritten for use in a DS campaign, to match and enhance the flavor?
*** if the need to rewrite the class still existe then use a different nomer....
To make my motives more clear: the last is the lynch-pin question. I only ask the first two questions so as to establish a base for you to answer the last question from.
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***dont go insulting me on my spelling and grammar, thats when i start taking it to personal...! ok but i am not angry or such..just making a point..
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Son, I would suggest you not even begin to criticize me about "insulting you" when you hurl around vindictives and value-judgements like "fool" ("so some fool can go play a palladin") regarding others.
*** you r younger than me so dont go son-ning me plz...lol, and i do think it is a waste of flavor if someone takes a phb palladin and playes it in a darksun campaign.
I suggest that if you take observations about the state of your spelling and grammar so personally, it is because you realize how bad it is and are rightly embarrassed about it. But, if you'd like me to actually insult you about your spelling and grammar, I can, and I can get very personal about it. You see, normally I figure if you can not type (or speak) like an adult, you aren't worthy of being treated or spoken to like one. I'm foregoing that for the moment in the hopes that we may yet have some sort of productive discussion.
*** english is not my native language but i do not feel that i am doing so bad..(i just type to fast or such..)lol lol lol
and in regards to your questions..:
i do not see any need to import new classes into Darksun(except for the templar and the mysticwitch seemed a good added effect without flavor changing.) but if people need to bring it in anyway they can do so , but not plz use the misnomer of "palladin", coz thats not what it is anymore if u change it so that it fits and then the feeling of the palladin will not be imported into Darksun and i will be happy.....
I came accross something rather interesting in the same article: The Incarnate; a neutral Paladin variant that gets it's power from the Elemental Plains. This cass could be adapted with a minimal amount of tweaking (posibly removing the neutrality of the class and changing Smite Extremist to Smite Paraelemental).
P.S. Could Greyorm and Burningspear please stop picking at eachother, if you reely want to continue this discussion then could you please PM each other. This is a forum and everyone is entiteled to their own opinions. Thankyou.
P.S. Could Greyorm and Burningspear please stop picking at eachother, if you reely want to continue this discussion then could you please PM each other. This is a forum and everyone is entiteled to their own opinions. Thankyou
Thnx for putting us in our place, as u r right , i apologize to ALL for letting any form of "picking" be inserted into my reactions...
as is the idea of Oba's preachers and Hamanu's hammers,
it sounds nice but is no longer a copy of the "paladins feel",
hence i am not apposed to it, but would rather see it as a PrC for templars and the like to take...as a sort of 10 lvl PrC
Not sure I like the idea myself but for the sake of discussion.
A couple thoughts: we've been slavishly devoted to canon 3E rulings here, about paladins serving good forces and how that restricts them from gaining positive energy effects.
Yet we have immoral elves, feral halflings, wizards who destroy the earth by merely invoking magic, and wild psionicists galore...so why not break the mold here, too?
Paladins who serve an evil power out of ignorance or necessity, and gain positive energy effects from that relationship, seems to fit the bill as a mold-breaker as well.
However, there's still another problem with paladins serving the Oba: Detect Evil. Damn near every one of her templars and, of course, the Oba herself would detect (though she could easily defeat and confuse such magic).
Thus, an additional reason the PHB paladins wouldn't work well, and I can't think of a way past that which isn't contrived, nor beyond more than cosmetically changing the power (ie: Detect Defiler), which makes them not a PHB paladin anymore.
Your original idea though, Raven, with the elemental champion thing or whatever will work, it just won't be the PHB paladin, but more of a paladin-like class.
I think that's the way we are going to have to go with it in order to bring something like that into DS, IMO anyways.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
there's just way too many issues with that class.
Assuming we can even agree on what those issues are!
I still like the concept of a crusader for the Restoration, perhaps unwittingly working for the Oba. I'll just have to rework it in some fashion. I'm also liking what I've taken to calling the "Hunter" -- a class dedicated to sniffing out and destroying wizards (defilers).
I might toy with the other ideas, too -- those who put the restless dead to final sleep, and those who deal with shadow-things/illusions/mind-benders. Don't know where to go with those, really -- with the former being easier than the latter to work something out of.
But yeah, the "elemental champion" idea is something in the brew -- I'm becoming partial to the "embodied elemental spirit" idea as a rather fun concept, since it isn't just a warrior-druid or warrior-cleric cliche.
Originally posted by Demon Gnome
Some suggestions for paladins in dark sun is variant paladin without spellcasting (from complete warrior i think) and/or the paladins of other alignments besides LG that was printed in earlier dragon magazines.
You're referring to the suggestions I've given, in quite a lot of detail, above. The Paladins of other alignments were also printed in Unearthed Arcana. But, I guess you could say great minds think alike?
As for, say Hamanu's guys I think I would swap detect evil for detect chaos and along with the alignment change to LN call that not TOO terribly far off from the PHB paladin.
I was also kind of intrigued by the possibility of making them prestige class Paladins. They had to worm their way up the SK's graces, proving themselves uncorruptable and completely dedicated to pursuing lawbreakers before he acknowledged them. that kind of reinforces the idea of H's paladins as watchdogs over the templarate to ensure they don't get too far out of control. I see H as a very hands-off ruler. Once he put the machinery in place he likes to watch his system run- a form of entertainment for him.
the prestige paladins would be even more fearsome on the battlefield for H. say the summoned mounts are kanks or erdlus. Stong elite cavalry with spell casting (from previous class), decent martial skills, bonuses against magic, and unquestioned loyalty to H. Worth their weight in steel, Hamanu might think.
1) I'm planning on adding an elemental champion class to the Athasian Manual of the planes. While not true paladins, they will be about as "paladin" as an Athasian can get (eg. not very).
2) The Oba is a 22nd level dragon (at least), so that means she's at least a 20th level wizard and a 20th level psion and capable of creating empowered items for both. You don't think she can camouflage her alignment?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Two things to add to this:
1) I'm planning on adding an elemental champion class to the Athasian Manual of the planes. While not true paladins, they will be about as "paladin" as an Athasian can get (eg. not very).
Cool idea, I've never jumped on the Elemental Champion boat tho, but it could be interesting none the less.
2) The Oba is a 22nd level dragon (at least), so that means she's at least a 20th level wizard and a 20th level psion and capable of creating empowered items for both. You don't think she can camouflage her alignment?
Don't bring logic into this arguement!
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Two things to add to this:
1) I'm planning on adding an elemental champion class to the Athasian Manual of the planes. While not true paladins, they will be about as "paladin" as an Athasian can get (eg. not very).
The problem I keep running into with this is, as I pointed out above (I think), is how to make them more than just a cleric-warrior, or a "better ranger." I haven't really found any real solution to that yet, other than the "elemental spirit" idea, and I don't know about that yet. But I look forward to seeing what you do with the Elemental Champion concept.
2) The Oba is a 22nd level dragon (at least), so that means she's at least a 20th level wizard and a 20th level psion and capable of creating empowered items for both. You don't think she can camouflage her alignment?
Hey I said the Oba could easily get around the alignment detection. As I said, it's her templars that would be the problem ("Hey, howcome all of your other servants are evil..?").
("Hey, howcome all of your other servants are evil..?").
"Well, I'll tell you. Could you step into my chambers real quick?"
Zot!
A little background on myself in regard to DS. I've been playing since it was released, read all of the novels, own most of the source material. I read most of the articles in Dragon and Dungeon (still reading them!), was a little disappointed, but also intrigued. Any idea is a good idea, just depends on what you want to do with it.
I looked up paladin at thesaurus.com just for kicks, some interesting synonyms poped up. I thought this might stir the cauldron-of-ideas:
advocate, challenger, conqueror, defender, endorser, expounder, guardian, hero, heroine, master, partisan, patron, protector, supporter, sympathizer, titleholder, top dog (funny!), upholder, vanquisher, vindicator, warrior, white knight, champion, conservator, keeper, overseer, preserver, safeguard, sentinel, shepherd, vigilante, warden, martyr
Let the ideas flow....or something like that!
But my other train of thought is the idea of a more psychic paladin being appropriate both to the githyanki and to Dark Sun. (At present I'm working on a D&D campaign set on the world where the githyanki originated and I'm toying with the idea of a paladin-like order serving the githyanki hero-founder Gith. I figure they wouldn't have any gods they worship but having been slaves of the mind flayers would probably have developed some form of psychic power.)
So perhaps such paladins draw on the collective unconscious of their race, acting for the greater good. If they're focussed on defending/fighting for their race then perhaps they were developed as elite warriors in the Cleansing Wars to defend humanity/attack other races. Over the years many have forgotten them and the secrets of training somebody in this way, but a few may have passed the secrets down or even some of the sorceror-kings may remember how to create these. Even Oronis?
That having been said, a couple things have to be asked:
Q. What is a paladin in the broad sense of the word?
A. To me, it means a humanoid that does good and fights undead.
Q. Where would a paladin receive his power from?
A. It was stated in Dungeon #110, DS DM guide, that there are vortices of positive energy in the Gray, as there is negative energy in the Black. It might be possible, albeit in rare cases, that a humanoid is born with a connection to these votices of positive energy. It could also be possible that through this connection, paladins can feel the prescence of another paladin. This might lead to an experienced paladin finding a young potential and teaching him, helping him adjust to his powers. Or the young paladin seeks out this knowledge on his own in the back-alleys and mean streets of a city-state, vowing to help others, not wanting other people to suffer as he had without anyone to turn to(or something like that). I suppose also, it's possible that a humanoid is born with a connection to the negative energy in the Black, i.e. an anti-paladin. Which in turn would also lead to the positive and negative paladins being able to feel the prescence of one another(yes, it does sound like the highlander, but it might work).
Q. What about the moral and ethical problems?
A. The paladin would have a sufix alignment of good, and a prefix alignment of either Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic. On Athas, it's hard enough just being good. The same could be said toward anti-paladins, they would have a sufix alignment of evil and a prefix alignment of either Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic.
This brainstorming has given me pictures of a lone warrior, traversing the wastes of Athas, helping those in need, when he can. Cleansing the world of the undead and trying to find his place in a world where truly good people are as rare as water.
Originally posted by neoshade
That having been said, a couple things have to be asked:
Q. What is a paladin in the broad sense of the word?
A. To me, it means a humanoid that does good and fights undead.
Pretty close, if a little incomplete, you forgot that they are strictly honorable, and quite martial in their abilities - but basically, yea.
Q. Where would a paladin receive his power from?
A. It was stated in Dungeon #110, DS DM guide, that there are vortices of positive energy in the Gray, as there is negative energy in the Black. It might be possible, albeit in rare cases, that a humanoid is born with a connection to these votices of positive energy. It could also be possible that through this connection, paladins can feel the prescence of another paladin. This might lead to an experienced paladin finding a young potential and teaching him, helping him adjust to his powers. Or the young paladin seeks out this knowledge on his own in the back-alleys and mean streets of a city-state, vowing to help others, not wanting other people to suffer as he had without anyone to turn to(or something like that). I suppose also, it's possible that a humanoid is born with a connection to the negative energy in the Black, i.e. an anti-paladin. Which in turn would also lead to the positive and negative paladins being able to feel the prescence of one another(yes, it does sound like the highlander, but it might work).
Except that in the Dark Sun materials besides Paizo's rendition, the Gray is where undead come from, and where p[eople's spirits go to dissolve and die. So, unless negative and positive energy decided to change sides and views somewhere, it's really quite unlikely that positive energy comes from the Gray - more likely it is tied somehow to negative energy. the Black is closer to the Shadow Plane, and positive energy seems to be tied to the elemental/paraelemental planes. So, basically, Paizo's version decided to throw the Athasian cosmology on it's ear.
Q. What about the moral and ethical problems?
A. The paladin would have a sufix alignment of good, and a prefix alignment of either Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic. On Athas, it's hard enough just being good. The same could be said toward anti-paladins, they would have a sufix alignment of evil and a prefix alignment of either Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic.
Ok, now that ytou are bending the alignment, you start dealing with how to handle the Paladin's abilities. Leaving the moral alignment of good keeps this minimal, however. But, if you see the write-up of the Paladin of Freedom in the book Unearthed Arcana, yuou'd see how this can cause potential problems and consistancy errors in having a Chaotic Good paladin with Lawful Good powers.
This brainstorming has given me pictures of a lone warrior, traversing the wastes of Athas, helping those in need, when he can. Cleansing the world of the undead and trying to find his place in a world where truly good people are as rare as water.
hehe and getting eaten by the first creature that he sees attacking some "defenseless" individual. But, if this idea works for you, I'd say run with it.
In that respect, I would just have my players take a Lawful Good Fighter. A Paladin, in D&D at least, denotes divinity of which their is none on Athas. Sure, you could have the Elemental Lords be some form of power for a Paladin, but they simply do not care about humanity enough or perceive things on the same timeline. There is simply no way to make a true paladin make sense. I'm working on an Elemental Champion, but its resemblence to a Paladin will be passing.
I would disagree. According to strict D&D 3.5 rules, clerics don't need gods to cast spells, just faith. Why not Paladins? Many things in Dark Sun are different from the 'standard' setting, so I see no reason why gods, dragons, wizards, clerics, bards, metal availability, and intelligent undead can change but paladins would have to conform to the expectations of previous settings.
Originally posted by Objulen
I would disagree. According to strict D&D 3.5 rules, clerics don't need gods to cast spells, just faith. Why not Paladins? Many things in Dark Sun are different from the 'standard' setting, so I see no reason why gods, dragons, wizards, clerics, bards, metal availability, and intelligent undead can change but paladins would have to conform to the expectations of previous settings.
Actually - for Dark Sun - there is only one type of Cleric - those that follow a specific element or paraelement. It is from those [para]elemental powers that they gain their power. There also is the Templar class - which is like a spontaneous-casting cleric class, that gains their magic from the Sorcerer-Kings, who in turn, are technically stealing it from the [para]elemental powers. There is also the Druids, but they get their power from Spirits ofthe Land, who are given the ability to provide divine magic to Druids by virtue of the pact of Earth - Air - Fire - Water, which once again, comes from the elemental planes (and rangers get theirs from lesser spirits, who get it from the Spirits of the Land, and as stated already, get that from the elemental powers). So, divine magical power/energies, on Dark Sun, all stem from the [para]elemental powers. None of them have an intangible source, like some cause or whatever, where following it is enough. Magic is a relatively foreign element into the existence of Athas - Arcane Magic steals life-energies, and Divine Magic comes from the inner planes. None of it is just freely around on Athas for people to just pick up and use for whatever cause they desire.
Now, if you want to throw that out the window, and decide that for your own campaigns, that Paladins don't have to have a tangeable source of power - that's ok - it is your game. Many of us, however, are rather interested in making rules systems that fit within the Dark Sun setting - Dark Sun's always been different than the typical D&D setting - and forcing such significant changes to the very nature of the setting - for no real purpose other than to attempt to rewrite the setting to match the D&D rules completely, effectively decays and destroys a major part of Dark Sun - making it into a watered-down clone of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, except for you are in a desert rather than lush forests and green hills.
Originally posted by Ruy
Maybe paladins could be more moral and martial templars with a little tweaking.
yeah, that's what I was thinking ...
Still a Paladin, but with templar flavor
Now, if you want to throw that out the window, and decide that for your own campaigns, that Paladins don't have to have a tangeable source of power - that's ok - it is your game. Many of us, however, are rather interested in making rules systems that fit within the Dark Sun setting - Dark Sun's always been different than the typical D&D setting - and forcing such significant changes to the very nature of the setting - for no real purpose other than to attempt to rewrite the setting to match the D&D rules completely, effectively decays and destroys a major part of Dark Sun - making it into a watered-down clone of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, except for you are in a desert rather than lush forests and green hills.
Here we have a divergence of opinion, because I think that implementing paladins simply as another class with elemental powers would damage the setting. The problem with trying to mesh Paladins into Dark Sun is that Paladins conflicts with the setting in and of themselves, as was stated in the Dark Sun setting material previously, IMO. The way I see it, the altruistism and code paladins adhear to died out as everything became more brutal and geared toward surival. The ethical landscape is harsh, as is the evironment, and paladins don't exist or are so rare because they can not survive in the harsh evironment full of harsh people. Even good characters have to worry about getting something, in some way, for what they do, up to a certain point, simply to ensure their short-term surivial. If paladins are going to be used, I would personally use them as rare, precious individuals, saintly people sustained by the faith and purity that they live by. This wouldn't watter down the setting of Athas anymore than having metal does. Greyhawk and Forgotten realms both have metal, as does Athas. The difference is rarity. Like metal, a paladin on Athas would be a rare and become more precious because of that rarity.
Having an intangible source for a paladin's power would accent the power of the paladin's moral conviction, and would not harm the setting as long as they were rare. Flooding Athas with metal would degrade the setting, as would flooding in this type of paladins. The key for both the rarity. And it's not like drawing upon one's self for power is anything new for Athas, given the psionics. Paladins could draw upon their purity in a fasion similar to psions drawing on their power points. These would not be people you would find in a City State; such a brutual environment would sully or destroy a paladin. You might run across a strange wandering mystic who exudes a calming holiness and purity. Or you might draw the PC's to a small village around an Oasis with surprising kindness and mercy, a village they may come to value (especially a good party) and defend from destruction as they would defend a beloved innocent.
If you simply want paladins to mesh with the setting, that would be easy. You have Lawful Good clerics who draw upon elemental powers for their spells. Paladins can be the same way. Form a knightly order dedicated to the virtues of a Paladin that draws upon some elemental powers in addition to their martial skills that have to be Lawful Good. The elements don't care who uses their powers, so if a group of paladin's decide to start using them, it won't matter. Or they could be the annointed of the spirits of the land, trying to restore Athas and promote good and law. Given the apathetic attitude of the sources of divine power on Athas, the only real difficutly would be developing balanced and setting specific elemental powers for each of the elements. But I think establishing that kind of order would harm the setting, especially if placed in the Table Lands. It might work better in post revolt Tyr, but Kurn would probably be the best place, having them go into the dunes to help the backward Table Lands. Which might mean that all Paladins are servants of Oronis and draw power as templars do.
Originally posted by Objulen
Here we have a divergence of opinion, because I think that implementing paladins simply as another class with elemental powers would damage the setting. The problem with trying to mesh Paladins into Dark Sun is that Paladins conflicts with the setting in and of themselves, as was stated in the Dark Sun setting material previously, IMO. The way I see it, the altruistism and code paladins adhear to died out as everything became more brutal and geared toward surival. The ethical landscape is harsh, as is the evironment, and paladins don't exist or are so rare because they can not survive in the harsh evironment full of harsh people. Even good characters have to worry about getting something, in some way, for what they do, up to a certain point, simply to ensure their short-term surivial. If paladins are going to be used, I would personally use them as rare, precious individuals, saintly people sustained by the faith and purity that they live by. This wouldn't watter down the setting of Athas anymore than having metal does. Greyhawk and Forgotten realms both have metal, as does Athas. The difference is rarity. Like metal, a paladin on Athas would be a rare and become more precious because of that rarity.
Which is why I presented, in this very thread, a very lengthily explained reasoning for using the Lawful Evil paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana for paladins of basically all the sorcerer-Kings except for Daskinor and Oronis. daskinor has the Chaotic Evil ones, while Oronis has Lawful Good ones. they are a more militant class that derives their power from the Sorcerer-Kings, possibly as bodyguards & protectors of the Templars, as well as a more magically-empowered form of military. This way, they get their power, like the Templars, from the Sorcerer-Kings who siphon it from the Elemental Planes. And presto - no "elemental champion" effect, and the paladin then fits, snug like a bug in a rug, into Dark Sun. sure - it's not the same "type" of Paladin that you'd see in other settings - but honestly, what in Dark Sun is?
Having an intangible source for a paladin's power would accent the power of the paladin's moral conviction, and would not harm the setting as long as they were rare. Flooding Athas with metal would degrade the setting, as would flooding in this type of paladins. The key for both the rarity. And it's not like drawing upon one's self for power is anything new for Athas, given the psionics. Paladins could draw upon their purity in a fasion similar to psions drawing on their power points. These would not be people you would find in a City State; such a brutual environment would sully or destroy a paladin. You might run across a strange wandering mystic who exudes a calming holiness and purity. Or you might draw the PC's to a small village around an Oasis with surprising kindness and mercy, a village they may come to value (especially a good party) and defend from destruction as they would defend a beloved innocent.
Having an intangable source of power for the Paladin would make them stick out, compared to every other spellcastin class on Athas, and be an anomaly. It wouldn't mesh with Dark Sun, and would feel very contrieved. Even if rare, we're talking about something that makes no sense speaking from the flavor of the Dark Sun setting. Especially since magic is supposed to be rare anyway - and is almost a foreign, unnatural thing - Arcane and Divine magic don't flow freely here, they are mgiven in measures, rationed, through the use of Arcane magic, or the elemental divine energies.
also - bear in mind - Psionics are [u]not[/i] magic. I repeat again, in case you didn't catch it the first time, psionics are not magic. Especially for Athas. Sure, there's some similarities, and I think Athas.org did a great job attempting to work out a decent system for the interrelationship between the too, but they are two different things. Psionics are mostly accepted, and perfectly normal for Dark Sun. Magic is the abberation to people - Magic destroyed the world. Magic is the privy of the Sorcerer-Kings - who are foul tyrants that kill people on a whim, and a couple even expect their people to worship them as gods. Magic is evil. Psionics are ok, and academies of psionics are scattered across Athas, in almost each of the cities. Magic users, especially Arcane magic users, are freequently killed by mobs of scared and angry people, if not Templars or other Arcane users. Templars also tend to not be fond of Druids and Clerics, who are not commonly found in cities either, as a result. The Templars tend to wish to keep a sort of monopoly on the whole Divine Magic access within their cities. Clerics are rather individualistic and roam or found/protect elemental shrines. Druids are frequently tied strongly to a specific region of land, where their Spirit of the Land guides them. Psions, wilders, Psychic Warriors, and probably Soulblades pretty much can roam free - within the regulations and laws of the cities they are in.
You simply can't make the comparason of getting magical energy from within yourself, as you suggest, and point to psionics as your justification. Magic on Dark Sun always comes from a tangible source. There is not a single magic-using class on Athas that this doesn't apply to.
If you simply want paladins to mesh with the setting, that would be easy. You have Lawful Good clerics who draw upon elemental powers for their spells. Paladins can be the same way. Form a knightly order dedicated to the virtues of a Paladin that draws upon some elemental powers in addition to their martial skills that have to be Lawful Good. The elements don't care who uses their powers, so if a group of paladin's decide to start using them, it won't matter. Or they could be the annointed of the spirits of the land, trying to restore Athas and promote good and law. Given the apathetic attitude of the sources of divine power on Athas, the only real difficutly would be developing balanced and setting specific elemental powers for each of the elements. But I think establishing that kind of order would harm the setting, especially if placed in the Table Lands. It might work better in post revolt Tyr, but Kurn would probably be the best place, having them go into the dunes to help the backward Table Lands. Which might mean that all Paladins are servants of Oronis and draw power as templars do.
Nope, sorry. but making Lawful Good paladins who follow strictly Neutral sources, would once again be contrieved. I do believe that there's a more lawful tendency to the elements and the paraelement of rain, while a more chaotic bent to the paraelements of magma, silt and sun, but they still are quite Neutral. Show me one Neutral god in the Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms settings that has an order of Paladins. It just doesn't cut it, and that would still end up with a very contrieved feel. You'd be fitting the proverbial square peg into the round hole.
And the arguement about Oronis being the leader of all of the members of an entire class across Athas - well.... that's been discussed, in length, in this very thread. Basically, I see it make more sense if the majority of the Paladins are Evil - primarily Lawful, with the ones from Eldaaritch (who tend to remain there, due to the nature of their Sorcerer-King) being Chaotic. The ones following Oronis would be Lawful Good - but they'd be probably, due to the secretive nature of Oronis and his plans, guardians and protectors of New Kurn, and not exactly sent out into the world.
Please, try to keep up, I already don't like repeating myself across several threads, I'm really not thrilled with repeating myself within the SAME thread.
Can't find one? Alright then, let's not even mention alignment as a barrier, then. It isn't restricted, it isn't listed as rare, its adherents aren't listed as "endangered."
Basically, it's just a very weak argument, and there are far stronger ones that support the point much better.
Originally posted by Objulen
...can change but paladins would have to conform to the expectations of previous settings.
Actually, that's a good point to use with many of the anti-paladin arguments (no pun intended, but vastly enjoyed).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Nope, sorry. but making Lawful Good paladins who follow strictly Neutral sources, would once again be contrieved.
No more contrived than a Lawful Good cleric of one of the elements, I would think.
Actually, I wanted to point something out, Xlorep: you keep mentioning how "Athas is different" but in the same breath, you mention how "No other world does that." Well, which is it?
For example, you argue that there are no Neutral gods who have paladins in Greyhawk...but this isn't Greyhawk.
My point is, you can't argue both that Athas is different AND base your arguements about what fits and works based on the baseline of standard worlds and rules.
Please, try to keep up, I already don't like repeating myself across several threads, I'm really not thrilled with repeating myself within the SAME thread.
Chill, dude. You don't have to repeat yourself unless you're trying to convince someone of something or "be right" -- and these are pretty silly things to get all worked up over.
An elemental champ, like Xlor pointed out, would be serving guarded neutrality, so the main tenants of the Paladin class (Galahad-like purity) don't really fit. I'd say that you could make something that emulates the paladin-class, such as a Cleric Warrior that has powers against defilers instead of undead or evil, but not something as black/white as a paladin.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Why not just change everything that reads "evil" to "defiler," drop the alignment prereq, and call it good? Okay, a few other tweaks in there, but that's about the only way I see a paladin class making sense on Athas.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I could see a prestige class that's "paladin-like" that serves Oronis, but not a pure Paladin class.
An elemental champ, like Xlor pointed out, would be serving guarded neutrality, so the main tenants of the Paladin class (Galahad-like purity) don't really fit. I'd say that you could make something that emulates the paladin-class, such as a Cleric Warrior that has powers against defilers instead of undead or evil, but not something as black/white as a paladin.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Why not just change everything that reads "evil" to "defiler," drop the alignment prereq, and call it good? Okay, a few other tweaks in there, but that's about the only way I see a paladin class making sense on Athas.
That could work.
Originally posted by greyorm
No more contrived than a Lawful Good cleric of one of the elements, I would think.
Actually, I wanted to point something out, Xlorep: you keep mentioning how "Athas is different" but in the same breath, you mention how "No other world does that." Well, which is it?
For example, you argue that there are no Neutral gods who have paladins in Greyhawk...but this isn't Greyhawk.
My point is, you can't argue both that Athas is different AND base your arguements about what fits and works based on the baseline of standard worlds and rules.
While yes, I do point out that Athas is different, at the same time, I feel there should be some evidence or an example of what's going to be done, drawn from things. Either within Dark Sun, or if attempting to add things from outside of it, looking for correlations to how they work outside in order to bring them in. It's actually a simple pattern recognition and adaptation technique that can help ensure Dark Sun's uniqueness, while providing for expanded ideas, like Paladins into the setting.
But, at the same time, you are right. If I want to bend the rules for Clerics, I guess I should think about bending them for Paladins as well.
Chill, dude. You don't have to repeat yourself unless you're trying to convince someone of something or "be right" -- and these are pretty silly things to get all worked up over.
Part of the wonders that makes communication and discussion work is that each party gets to pose their queries on a subject while the rest can get the opportunity to respond. However, stagnation results when several people keep asking the same question, and then get the same answer - this is also referred to as not paying attention to the answer. If you don't like the answer, state that you don't agree with it and that you are looking for a suggestion or idea from someone else, or of a different direction, don't just keep rephrasing the exact same question. doing such things is very rude to those who have already provided the answer to that very query, as it is a blatant, communicable disregard of those people and their ideas or suggestions.
From xlorepdarkhelm
Which is why I presented, in this very thread, a very lengthily explained reasoning for using the Lawful Evil paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana for paladins of basically all the sorcerer-Kings except for Daskinor and Oronis. daskinor has the Chaotic Evil ones, while Oronis has Lawful Good ones. they are a more militant class that derives their power from the Sorcerer-Kings, possibly as bodyguards & protectors of the Templars, as well as a more magically-empowered form of military. This way, they get their power, like the Templars, from the Sorcerer-Kings who siphon it from the Elemental Planes. And presto - no "elemental champion" effect, and the paladin then fits, snug like a bug in a rug, into Dark Sun. sure - it's not the same "type" of Paladin that you'd see in other settings - but honestly, what in Dark Sun is?
Which could work fine, though it would be more like merging the blackgaurd and paladin into one class than having paladins or evil paladins, since the class would include both types of paladins, the evil ones having more blackgaurd-like abilities (assuming any alignment-based abilities would appear with this type of 'Champion of the Sorcerer Kings' paladin. Actually, a 'smite- foe-of-the-sorcerer-king' might be more suitable than smite evil or smite good) and good 'paladins' would have abilities closer to the standard PHB paladin.
From xlorepdarkhelm
Having an intangable source of power for the Paladin would make them stick out, compared to every other spellcasting class on Athas, and be an anomaly. It wouldn't mesh with Dark Sun, and would feel very contrieved. Even if rare, we're talking about something that makes no sense speaking from the flavor of the Dark Sun setting. Especially since magic is supposed to be rare anyway - and is almost a foreign, unnatural thing - Arcane and Divine magic don't flow freely here, they are mgiven in measures, rationed, through the use of Arcane magic, or the elemental divine energies.
also - bear in mind - Psionics are not[/i] magic. I repeat again, in case you didn't catch it the first time, psionics are [u]not magic. Especially for Athas. Sure, there's some similarities, and I think Athas.org did a great job attempting to work out a decent system for the interrelationship between the too, but they are two different things. Psionics are mostly accepted, and perfectly normal for Dark Sun. Magic is the abberation to people - Magic destroyed the world. Magic is the privy of the Sorcerer-Kings - who are foul tyrants that kill people on a whim, and a couple even expect their people to worship them as gods. Magic is evil. Psionics are ok, and academies of psionics are scattered across Athas, in almost each of the cities. Magic users, especially Arcane magic users, are freequently killed by mobs of scared and angry people, if not Templars or other Arcane users. Templars also tend to not be fond of Druids and Clerics, who are not commonly found in cities either, as a result. The Templars tend to wish to keep a sort of monopoly on the whole Divine Magic access within their cities. Clerics are rather individualistic and roam or found/protect elemental shrines. Druids are frequently tied strongly to a specific region of land, where their Spirit of the Land guides them. Psions, wilders, Psychic Warriors, and probably Soulblades pretty much can roam free - within the regulations and laws of the cities they are in.
I disagree. Firstly, arcane magic is an abberation to the people and destroys the world, not divine magic. Clerics and divine magic are accepted by populace. Divine magic is not illegal, in general, in the city states, and clerics are not hunted simply because they are clerics. Templars are not fond the clerics, since they offer divine magic seperate from the Sorcerer Kings, but they are ususally tollerated as long as they pay lip service in most city states and give the Templar space. Druids stay alone, but this because druids gaurd wild sites and natural resorces, which doesn't include city states, but a druid in a city state who doesn't give the Templar cause to harrass her or him(follows the laws), all things being equal (like the Templar looking for someone to harass or being unusually paranoid), druids won't be hunted down for simply using divine magic.
Secondly, paladins don't exist on Athas. There is no standard for them. Why would it be contrived for them to draw upon their own purity? It would be like psionics, except they would have different class features and powers. It wouldn't be that different than psions and wizards, which very similar classes in that they are 'casters' but have very different flavors and mechanics.
This is what I was saying before: a paladin could be a psion-type class that relies on purity instead of power points without being any more contrived than having paladins be divine champions of the Sorcerer Kings, since there are no paladins on Athas up until this point. Both could even show up under different names in the same game. The reason why the first version of the paladin would be rare is because that sort of purity is rare, not because of any inherent class restriction, while the setting would allow for a decent number of the second type of paladin. The former version of the Athasian paladin would generate effects that are like clerical magic, but why should that be a problem in and of itself? Psions get disintigrate, dominate, charm, and AoE damage dealing powers - does that make them nothing but wizard or sorc knock-offs? The result would only be contrived if there were alot of this type of paladin, because this type of purity would be very rare on Athas, and has the benefit in that this type of paladin would be truer to the origional paladin class in being good, honorable, altruistic, etc. The difference between our class ideas is the focus: the psion-paladin focuses on adapting the ideals and virtues of the paladin in the Athasian setting, while the Champion of the Sorcerer Kings focuses on adapting the martial and divine special abilities of the paladin to Dark Sun.
You simply can't make the comparason of getting magical energy from within yourself, as you suggest, and point to psionics as your justification. Magic on Dark Sun always comes from a tangible source. There is not a single magic-using class on Athas that this doesn't apply to.
I was refering to turning the paladin into a more psion type class than a cleric - type class as far as mechanics go, not drawing on elemental power like clerics do. It wouldn't be anymore magical than psionics in that regaurd.
Nope, sorry. but making Lawful Good paladins who follow strictly Neutral sources, would once again be contrieved. I do believe that there's a more lawful tendency to the elements and the paraelement of rain, while a more chaotic bent to the paraelements of magma, silt and sun, but they still are quite Neutral. Show me one Neutral god in the Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms settings that has an order of Paladins. It just doesn't cut it, and that would still end up with a very contrieved feel. You'd be fitting the proverbial square peg into the round hole.
Your argument here has a very large flaw: Show me a neutral god in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms that has Lawful Good clerics. The very neutral elements have clerics of all alignments, including LG and LE, which would be impossible in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms, so I see no reason why Lawful Good paladins couldn't draw upon the neutral elemental powers Lawful Good clerics do. I don't think it really fits without alot of changes, including, possibly change to a more druidic type "environmental avenger" who tries to restore athas, but it is possible. Your idea of the Champion of the Sorcerer King would fit the bill better than this option IMO.
And the arguement about Oronis being the leader of all of the members of an entire class across Athas - well.... that's been discussed, in length, in this very thread. Basically, I see it make more sense if the majority of the Paladins are Evil - primarily Lawful, with the ones from Eldaaritch (who tend to remain there, due to the nature of their Sorcerer-King) being Chaotic. The ones following Oronis would be Lawful Good - but they'd be probably, due to the secretive nature of Oronis and his plans, guardians and protectors of New Kurn, and not exactly sent out into the world.
That was if Paladins were going to keep the LG requirement, but I see no reason why it can't go out the window for a CotSK type class. It would basically roll up the Blackgaurd and the Paladin into one and give it an Athasian twist as a fighting class.
Please, try to keep up, I already don't like repeating myself across several threads, I'm really not thrilled with repeating myself within the SAME thread.
You argued against a specific point of mine for the most part, in which the totality of my idea wasn't recieved. The rest of what I listed was me just listing some possibilities..
(I retract my arguements at this point, I'm going off the deep end here. Take from them whatyou will, and I'll try to keep from harping on people about things. I'm still of the belief of making them follow the individual Sorcerer-Kings, especially with the OGL book "Unearthed Arcana" from Wizards of the Coast doing a great job detailing variant paladins for different alignments, without needing to worry about the Blackguard PrC. However, to each their own.)