GtH Inconsistencies - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

GtH Inconsistencies

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
May 13, 2004 14:18:19 I don't own this product but was looking for it.

Before I spend my hard earned money on this one, I would like to know what conflicts and inconsistencies it brings to my beloved Planescape.

All I know about it is the Jaziran and Asmodeus nonsense about creating the multiverse...

Anyone could do this favor to me?
#2
zombiegleemax
May 13, 2004 15:38:57 ^^you can get it for $5 from svgames. The other bit of (IMHO) garbage is how Asmodeus feeds on unbelief, and thus draws power from the Athar. Whether this was a strange critique of RL atheism or a bit of creativity gone too far, it completely negated the ideals of the Athar, not to mention the usual afterlife of those not aligned to a deity as Asmodeus drew their souls in IIRC.
#3
ripvanwormer
May 13, 2004 18:16:03
it completely negated the ideals of the Athar, not to mention the usual afterlife of those not aligned to a deity as Asmodeus drew their souls in IIRC.

But it was easily fixable. Just say that although nonbelieving souls don't automatically go to the Dark Lord of Nessus, still he finds them useful, so he secretly encourages the degradation of faith across the planes and asks his minions to purchase the souls of unbelievers from the night hags as part of the experiment known as the Bringing.

But I wouldn't bother getting Guide to Hell at this point. It was largely made redundant by The Book of Vile Darkness, and already overlapped Planes of Law to a considerable extent. Green Ronin's website has 3e prestige classes based on GtH's kits.
#4
zombiegleemax
May 13, 2004 20:33:42 Ripvanwormer and Sciborg2:

Let just say that I'm a compulsive collector of old books. ;)

I just want to check if it will be a good deal anyway (in other words if it will suit me).
#5
zombiegleemax
May 13, 2004 21:26:55 Inconsistencies depends on your reference point, what you are comparing with, esp now with 3E and v3.5... Anyway, the book covers the following content.
Cosmology: Ahriman-Jazirian make the planes, etc etc.
4 Anti-Devil PC Kits: See here.
Devilkin: Half-fiend basically...
Anti-Hell Organization: Inquisition type for St. Cuthbert.
Spells: Many duplicated in Planewalker's Handbook.
Hell's Layers: about 1/2 page per layer of info.
Lords of the Nine: 2E stats. Only Asmodeus is a god (greater).
Asmodeus' Plot: Blood War as a smokescreen, Noble's Politics to keep archfiends busy and convince the world that archdevils are not true gods...
Armageddon: Souls who die "believing in nothing" (Is it possible?) comes to Nessus and Asmodeus as the Serpent chews on them to heal and retake his lost power which now holds the planes together.
Athar: Asmodeus likes them.
Godswar: Asmodeus manipulate gods to fight each other to belittle them in the eyes of worshippers.
Magic in Hell: Duplicated info from Planes of Law and Hellbound.
Devils: Bodiless baatezu called Mazzikim.
That's it, folks.
#6
zombiegleemax
May 14, 2004 0:41:15 Thanks Seraph.

I'm using all the old 2e Planescape boxes and supplements for flavor (and plane description, including alteratons and the like) and 3.Me for mechanics.

So besides all the Jaziran/Asmodeus creation of the multiverse, the unfaithfull being eaten by Asmodeus, are any other conflicts with the previous supplements?

Two other things got my attention:

# Asmodeus' Plot: Blood War as a smokescreen, Noble's Politics to keep archfiends busy and convince the world that archdevils are not true gods..
# Godswar: Asmodeus manipulate gods to fight each other to belittle them in the eyes of worshippers.

Could anyone go a little further in these two? They seen so.... wrong...
#7
Shemeska_the_Marauder
May 14, 2004 10:21:44
Originally posted by Donblas, the Justice Maker

Could anyone go a little further in these two? They seen so.... wrong...

That's why I don't like the book. It was like Asmodeus was someone's former PC and now when they're featured in a campaign under that player, now a DM, they're teh UBER NPC!!!! Who shows up to do everything without breaking a sweat.

It's bunk as far as I'm concerned because of the conflicts with other material. It's all part of the 'nothing else is evil compared to asmodeus and he's the source of all evil fap fap fap fap'. Yeah.

I leave open the hints that he's got a true form lurking in Nessus, but I toss out the junk about Jazirian, the junk about him devouring all who die with no beliefs (who frankly should go to their plane of alignment, hello, or to the Waste), and I leave it an open question of him having deific power. Hell I leave it an open question on almost anything relating to him.

But I make a point of having the original Baatezu formed by the Yugoloths, though I don't rule out subsequent ones being formed from Asmo's blood. I leave it hazy about if Asmodeus was already there when the Baatezu migrated from the Waste to take over Baator from the Ancient Baatorians. However I have him appear in Nessus as The Lord of the 9th almost immediately thereafter. He might have arisen from one of the Ancient Baatorians, or the most powerful of the original Baatezu, or be a sentient projection of Nessus itself, or a fallen deity as GtH tries to push.
#8
primemover003
May 14, 2004 21:57:00 I agree with Shemeska... While the Lord of Nessus is a badass... he's not all that bad, er he is... but I digress.

I like the fact that Klysander the Paladin and Emerikol the Chaotic duped him in the background of the great adventure A Paladin in Hell... I've got to convert that mod!
#9
zombiegleemax
May 15, 2004 8:26:20 Origins of Devils
In GtH, the first devils are born from Asmodeus' blood as he fell from the planes. This may conflict with the yugoloth rumor in Hellbound.

The Reckoning & the Lords
The former Lord of the First is named - Zariel. Asmodeus supported Bel's rule after his coup as long as he fulfilled his obligations in the Blood War. Mammon shamelessly begged Asmodeus to let him rule again. Fierana is not the dumb blonde that BOVD makes her out to be. She and her dad tried to conquer Stygia but failed. Levistus killed Bensozia and ***ed Asmodeus off, hence his imprisonment. Malagard tricked her lover Moloch to defy Asmodeus in the face of defeat, hence the archdevil was exiled to a prime material world. Triel had a predecessor whom he overthrew. The rest is as per Paladin in Hell.

Blood War
Asmodeus did not start it. He recognized it as pointless, but decided to use it to distract the enemies of Hell. Thus he created the Dark Eight, whom he meets 4/year, to perpetuate the war.

Politics of the Nobility
The 3 devil castes (Rule of Threes) are common devils, noble devils (incl. the lords) and Asmodeus. The nobles serve 3 purposes: to keep an eye on the Dark Eight, to provide a public face to camouflages his activities and to convince the enemies of Hell that none of the lords are true powers.

Godswar
The idea of showing the pettiness of gods is to foster unbelief which Asmodeus needs to feed upon to heal. He hopes the fightings between gods would convince people to deflect to the Athar or an appropriate devil cult. That's about all on this issue.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 13, 2004 14:18:19	I don't own this product but was looking for it. Before I spend my hard earned money on this one, I would like to know what conflicts and inconsistencies it brings to my beloved Planescape. All I know about it is the Jaziran and Asmodeus nonsense about creating the multiverse... Anyone could do this favor to me?
#2 zombiegleemax May 13, 2004 15:38:57	^^you can get it for $5 from svgames. The other bit of (IMHO) garbage is how Asmodeus feeds on unbelief, and thus draws power from the Athar. Whether this was a strange critique of RL atheism or a bit of creativity gone too far, it completely negated the ideals of the Athar, not to mention the usual afterlife of those not aligned to a deity as Asmodeus drew their souls in IIRC.
#3 ripvanwormer May 13, 2004 18:16:03	it completely negated the ideals of the Athar, not to mention the usual afterlife of those not aligned to a deity as Asmodeus drew their souls in IIRC. But it was easily fixable. Just say that although nonbelieving souls don't automatically go to the Dark Lord of Nessus, still he finds them useful, so he secretly encourages the degradation of faith across the planes and asks his minions to purchase the souls of unbelievers from the night hags as part of the experiment known as the Bringing. But I wouldn't bother getting Guide to Hell at this point. It was largely made redundant by The Book of Vile Darkness, and already overlapped Planes of Law to a considerable extent. Green Ronin's website has 3e prestige classes based on GtH's kits.
#4 zombiegleemax May 13, 2004 20:33:42	Ripvanwormer and Sciborg2: Let just say that I'm a compulsive collector of old books. ;) I just want to check if it will be a good deal anyway (in other words if it will suit me).
#5 zombiegleemax May 13, 2004 21:26:55	Inconsistencies depends on your reference point, what you are comparing with, esp now with 3E and v3.5... Anyway, the book covers the following content. Cosmology: Ahriman-Jazirian make the planes, etc etc. 4 Anti-Devil PC Kits: See here. Devilkin: Half-fiend basically... Anti-Hell Organization: Inquisition type for St. Cuthbert. Spells: Many duplicated in Planewalker's Handbook. Hell's Layers: about 1/2 page per layer of info. Lords of the Nine: 2E stats. Only Asmodeus is a god (greater). Asmodeus' Plot: Blood War as a smokescreen, Noble's Politics to keep archfiends busy and convince the world that archdevils are not true gods... Armageddon: Souls who die "believing in nothing" (Is it possible?) comes to Nessus and Asmodeus as the Serpent chews on them to heal and retake his lost power which now holds the planes together. Athar: Asmodeus likes them. Godswar: Asmodeus manipulate gods to fight each other to belittle them in the eyes of worshippers. Magic in Hell: Duplicated info from Planes of Law and Hellbound. Devils: Bodiless baatezu called Mazzikim. That's it, folks.
#6 zombiegleemax May 14, 2004 0:41:15	Thanks Seraph. I'm using all the old 2e Planescape boxes and supplements for flavor (and plane description, including alteratons and the like) and 3.Me for mechanics. So besides all the Jaziran/Asmodeus creation of the multiverse, the unfaithfull being eaten by Asmodeus, are any other conflicts with the previous supplements? Two other things got my attention: # Asmodeus' Plot: Blood War as a smokescreen, Noble's Politics to keep archfiends busy and convince the world that archdevils are not true gods.. # Godswar: Asmodeus manipulate gods to fight each other to belittle them in the eyes of worshippers. Could anyone go a little further in these two? They seen so.... wrong...
#7 Shemeska_the_Marauder May 14, 2004 10:21:44	Originally posted by Donblas, the Justice Maker Could anyone go a little further in these two? They seen so.... wrong... That's why I don't like the book. It was like Asmodeus was someone's former PC and now when they're featured in a campaign under that player, now a DM, they're teh UBER NPC!!!! Who shows up to do everything without breaking a sweat. It's bunk as far as I'm concerned because of the conflicts with other material. It's all part of the 'nothing else is evil compared to asmodeus and he's the source of all evil fap fap fap fap'. Yeah. I leave open the hints that he's got a true form lurking in Nessus, but I toss out the junk about Jazirian, the junk about him devouring all who die with no beliefs (who frankly should go to their plane of alignment, hello, or to the Waste), and I leave it an open question of him having deific power. Hell I leave it an open question on almost anything relating to him. But I make a point of having the original Baatezu formed by the Yugoloths, though I don't rule out subsequent ones being formed from Asmo's blood. I leave it hazy about if Asmodeus was already there when the Baatezu migrated from the Waste to take over Baator from the Ancient Baatorians. However I have him appear in Nessus as The Lord of the 9th almost immediately thereafter. He might have arisen from one of the Ancient Baatorians, or the most powerful of the original Baatezu, or be a sentient projection of Nessus itself, or a fallen deity as GtH tries to push.
#8 primemover003 May 14, 2004 21:57:00	I agree with Shemeska... While the Lord of Nessus is a badass... he's not all that bad, er he is... but I digress. I like the fact that Klysander the Paladin and Emerikol the Chaotic duped him in the background of the great adventure A Paladin in Hell... I've got to convert that mod!
#9 zombiegleemax May 15, 2004 8:26:20	Origins of Devils In GtH, the first devils are born from Asmodeus' blood as he fell from the planes. This may conflict with the yugoloth rumor in Hellbound. The Reckoning & the Lords The former Lord of the First is named - Zariel. Asmodeus supported Bel's rule after his coup as long as he fulfilled his obligations in the Blood War. Mammon shamelessly begged Asmodeus to let him rule again. Fierana is not the dumb blonde that BOVD makes her out to be. She and her dad tried to conquer Stygia but failed. Levistus killed Bensozia and *ed Asmodeus off, hence his imprisonment. Malagard tricked her lover Moloch to defy Asmodeus in the face of defeat, hence the archdevil was exiled to a prime material world. Triel had a predecessor whom he overthrew. The rest is as per Paladin in Hell. Blood War Asmodeus did not start it. He recognized it as pointless, but decided to use it to distract the enemies of Hell. Thus he created the Dark Eight, whom he meets 4/year, to perpetuate the war. Politics of the Nobility The 3 devil castes (Rule of Threes) are common devils, noble devils (incl. the lords) and Asmodeus. The nobles serve 3 purposes: to keep an eye on the Dark Eight, to provide a public face to camouflages his activities and to convince the enemies of Hell that none of the lords are true powers. Godswar** The idea of showing the pettiness of gods is to foster unbelief which Asmodeus needs to feed upon to heal. He hopes the fightings between gods would convince people to deflect to the Athar or an appropriate devil cult. That's about all on this issue.