Holy Liberators of Trithereon - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Holy Liberators of Trithereon

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
caeruleus
May 14, 2004 18:24:18 I just picked up a copy of the Complete Divine, which includes the Holy Liberator PrC (roughly a chaotic good version of the paladin). They're dedicated to defending freedom and individuality, and are great for followers of Trithereon (as was discussed, IIRC, in one issue of LGJ).

Anyway, rather than detecting and smiting evil, like the paladin, I think it would make more sense if Holy Liberators of Trithereon detect and smite law. After all, while the Summoner's main enemies are lawful evil tyrants and slavers, he is also opposed to other lawful-types such as St. Cuthbert (LN) and Pholtus (LG).

How does this sound to others?
#2
avfanatic
May 14, 2004 18:30:11 He is listed in "Greyhawk Players Guide" as having antipathy with all lawful deities so that makes some sense. Personally, I would allow a choice.
#3
Greyson
May 15, 2004 0:34:00
Originally posted by caeruleus
... he is also opposed to other lawful-types such as St. Cuthbert (LN) and Pholtus (LG).

The LGG actually mentions The Summoners opposition to Pholtus by name (it also names Heironeous). And the Avenger of Thrithereon article in Dungeon #104 calls out Pholtus, again, and Cuthbert.

Your adjustment to the PrC does seem to make sense, caeruleus. Gary Holian's Paladins of Greyhawk (cited above) states that they respect "little hierarchy" and eschew "most traditional authority ... " (page 112).

But, the same article also reads that, "Evil, particularly where it is organized to oppress, has no place in this world." So, the ability to more keenly detect and smite evil is still very important. I think it's a tough call. I would stick with the Holy Liberator as written, retaining the power to detect and smite evil, instead of law. Ultimately, it's your call, mate. Let us know what you think and decide. Have fun.
#4
mortellan
May 15, 2004 0:39:08 I think the designers would rather heroes focus on battling evil, despite what your character's PrC or alignment is. Also GH like most campaigns are typically going to be good vs evil affairs, else there would be smite law or smite chaos already. All in all it doesn't take much to adjust to if you like it that way. A pure Law vs Chaos campaign would be interesting. Just like in the Elric saga. Could you imagine Pholtus and Hextor on the same side?
#5
Mortepierre
May 15, 2004 2:07:26
Originally posted by mortellan Could you imagine Pholtus and Hextor on the same side? [/b]

Eh, they actually were for several centuries in the Great Kingdom (albeit their minions had no lost love for each other) :D
#6
eric_anondson
May 15, 2004 11:59:19
Originally posted by caeruleus
Anyway, rather than detecting and smiting evil, like the paladin, I think it would make more sense if Holy Liberators of Trithereon detect and smite law. After all, while the Summoner's main enemies are lawful evil tyrants and slavers, he is also opposed to other lawful-types such as St. Cuthbert (LN) and Pholtus (LG).

How does this sound to others?

Sounds unnecessary, but nifty. Should the holy liberator also have an aura of chaos instead of aura of good? The class requires the character's alignment to be chaotic and good.

The Holy Liberator already adds to the spell list the spells protection from law, magic circle against law, and dispel law

Plus, were the holy liberator to not smite evil, there would be even less benefit for being an ex-paladin holy liberator. An ex-paladin holy liberator is allowed to stack their former paladin levels with the holy liberator levels to determine the power of the smite ability. Remember, the paladin class has smite evil.

I think all that would be called for would be a feat that would be something like this:

Additional Alignment Smite
You can use your smite ability against another alignment opposite to one of yours.
Prerequisite: Cha 15, Smite evil, smite good, smite law, or smite chaos, and character alignment of lawful good, chaotic good, chaotic evil or lawful evil.
Benefit: In addition to smiting against creatures with one type of alignment opposite of yours, your smites also affect creatures with either alignment opposite of yours. A creature immune to aligned attacks must be immune to both alignments to not be affected by the smite.
For example, a paladin (LG alignment) can smite evil. With this feat a paladin's smite now also smites chaos. The paladin need not choose between alignments when he smites as both work at the same time. However, were a paladin with this feat to smite a chaotic evil creature, it is affected as if only one smite hit, not two.

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#7
avfanatic
May 15, 2004 12:25:19
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
Sounds unnecessary, but nifty. Should the holy liberator also have an aura of chaos instead of aura of good? The class requires the character's alignment to be chaotic and good.

I know it's not the rule but, they should get both, as should any class that gets an aura and worships a Chaotic Good deity like Trithereon.

FROM THE PHB pg32
"A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particulary powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see Detect Evil spell for details)."
Paladins (the most similar to Holy Liberators) only get good auras but IMO that's an oversight (they should get lawful too).
#8
caeruleus
May 15, 2004 19:23:28 Thanks for the feedback, all.

Eric -- Yes, I had aura of chaos in mind. Another possible change (which at least in my mind would also fit) would be to replace Diplomacy (both in the requirement and as a class skill) with Bluff. However, I like the feat that you suggest. The idea of paladins smiting chaos is also cool, and would fit well with paladins of Pholtus and St. Cuthbert.

Actually, didn't the first part of the "Paladins of Greyhawk" article (in Dragon, I forget the issue #) offer a feat to paladins of St. Cuthbert which allowed them to smite law?

avfanatic -- Allowing a choice is also a nice idea. Some holy liberators may smite law, others evil. One could also offer a similar choice to paladins, between smiting evil and chaos (with the other corresponding changes in aura, etc).
#9
Ghorrin
Jun 05, 2004 1:20:02 Hey there,

Just curious, what is folks' take on the "Paladin of Freedom" from Unearthed Arcana (UA gave variant paladin class description for the other three 'corner' alignments)? At our table, we've pretty much shelved the Holy Liberator PrC, and holy warriors of CG gods like Trithereon can play PoFs.

Eager to hear your collective $0.02...

Later on,
Ghorrin
#10
caeruleus
Jun 05, 2004 10:29:42
Originally posted by Ghorrin
Hey there,

Just curious, what is folks' take on the "Paladin of Freedom" from Unearthed Arcana (UA gave variant paladin class description for the other three 'corner' alignments)? At our table, we've pretty much shelved the Holy Liberator PrC, and holy warriors of CG gods like Trithereon can play PoFs.

Eager to hear your collective $0.02...

Later on,
Ghorrin

Personally, I didn't like the paladin of freedom. I just don't see why warriors dedicated to freedom would all have the same abilities, which mirror those of a lawful class. True, holy liberators will have abilities in common, but it's at least a little better insofar as it is a prestige class, and so is more likely to be combined with a wider variety of other abilites. I think fighters, clerics, rangers, and rogues (or multiclassing in these) in particular can make good holy liberators.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 caeruleus May 14, 2004 18:24:18	I just picked up a copy of the Complete Divine, which includes the Holy Liberator PrC (roughly a chaotic good version of the paladin). They're dedicated to defending freedom and individuality, and are great for followers of Trithereon (as was discussed, IIRC, in one issue of LGJ). Anyway, rather than detecting and smiting evil, like the paladin, I think it would make more sense if Holy Liberators of Trithereon detect and smite law. After all, while the Summoner's main enemies are lawful evil tyrants and slavers, he is also opposed to other lawful-types such as St. Cuthbert (LN) and Pholtus (LG). How does this sound to others?
#2 avfanatic May 14, 2004 18:30:11	He is listed in "Greyhawk Players Guide" as having antipathy with all lawful deities so that makes some sense. Personally, I would allow a choice.
#3 Greyson May 15, 2004 0:34:00	Originally posted by caeruleus ... he is also opposed to other lawful-types such as St. Cuthbert (LN) and Pholtus (LG). The LGG actually mentions The Summoners opposition to Pholtus by name (it also names Heironeous). And the Avenger of Thrithereon article in Dungeon #104 calls out Pholtus, again, and Cuthbert. Your adjustment to the PrC does seem to make sense, caeruleus. Gary Holian's Paladins of Greyhawk (cited above) states that they respect "little hierarchy" and eschew "most traditional authority ... " (page 112). But, the same article also reads that, "Evil, particularly where it is organized to oppress, has no place in this world." So, the ability to more keenly detect and smite evil is still very important. I think it's a tough call. I would stick with the Holy Liberator as written, retaining the power to detect and smite evil, instead of law. Ultimately, it's your call, mate. Let us know what you think and decide. Have fun.
#4 mortellan May 15, 2004 0:39:08	I think the designers would rather heroes focus on battling evil, despite what your character's PrC or alignment is. Also GH like most campaigns are typically going to be good vs evil affairs, else there would be smite law or smite chaos already. All in all it doesn't take much to adjust to if you like it that way. A pure Law vs Chaos campaign would be interesting. Just like in the Elric saga. Could you imagine Pholtus and Hextor on the same side?
#5 Mortepierre May 15, 2004 2:07:26	Originally posted by mortellan Could you imagine Pholtus and Hextor on the same side? [/b] Eh, they actually were for several centuries in the Great Kingdom (albeit their minions had no lost love for each other) :D
#6 eric_anondson May 15, 2004 11:59:19	Originally posted by caeruleus Anyway, rather than detecting and smiting evil, like the paladin, I think it would make more sense if Holy Liberators of Trithereon detect and smite law. After all, while the Summoner's main enemies are lawful evil tyrants and slavers, he is also opposed to other lawful-types such as St. Cuthbert (LN) and Pholtus (LG). How does this sound to others? Sounds unnecessary, but nifty. Should the holy liberator also have an aura of chaos instead of aura of good? The class requires the character's alignment to be chaotic and good. The Holy Liberator already adds to the spell list the spells protection from law, magic circle against law, and dispel law Plus, were the holy liberator to not smite evil, there would be even less benefit for being an ex-paladin holy liberator. An ex-paladin holy liberator is allowed to stack their former paladin levels with the holy liberator levels to determine the power of the smite ability. Remember, the paladin class has smite evil. I think all that would be called for would be a feat that would be something like this: Additional Alignment Smite You can use your smite ability against another alignment opposite to one of yours. Prerequisite: Cha 15, Smite evil, smite good, smite law, or smite chaos, and character alignment of lawful good, chaotic good, chaotic evil or lawful evil. Benefit: In addition to smiting against creatures with one type of alignment opposite of yours, your smites also affect creatures with either alignment opposite of yours. A creature immune to aligned attacks must be immune to both alignments to not be affected by the smite. For example, a paladin (LG alignment) can smite evil. With this feat a paladin's smite now also smites chaos. The paladin need not choose between alignments when he smites as both work at the same time. However, were a paladin with this feat to smite a chaotic evil creature, it is affected as if only one smite hit, not two. Regards, Eric Anondson
#7 avfanatic May 15, 2004 12:25:19	Originally posted by Eric Anondson Sounds unnecessary, but nifty. Should the holy liberator also have an aura of chaos instead of aura of good? The class requires the character's alignment to be chaotic and good. I know it's not the rule but, they should get both, as should any class that gets an aura and worships a Chaotic Good deity like Trithereon. FROM THE PHB pg32 "A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particulary powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see Detect Evil spell for details)." Paladins (the most similar to Holy Liberators) only get good auras but IMO that's an oversight (they should get lawful too).
#8 caeruleus May 15, 2004 19:23:28	Thanks for the feedback, all. Eric -- Yes, I had aura of chaos in mind. Another possible change (which at least in my mind would also fit) would be to replace Diplomacy (both in the requirement and as a class skill) with Bluff. However, I like the feat that you suggest. The idea of paladins smiting chaos is also cool, and would fit well with paladins of Pholtus and St. Cuthbert. Actually, didn't the first part of the "Paladins of Greyhawk" article (in Dragon, I forget the issue #) offer a feat to paladins of St. Cuthbert which allowed them to smite law? avfanatic -- Allowing a choice is also a nice idea. Some holy liberators may smite law, others evil. One could also offer a similar choice to paladins, between smiting evil and chaos (with the other corresponding changes in aura, etc).
#9 Ghorrin Jun 05, 2004 1:20:02	Hey there, Just curious, what is folks' take on the "Paladin of Freedom" from Unearthed Arcana (UA gave variant paladin class description for the other three 'corner' alignments)? At our table, we've pretty much shelved the Holy Liberator PrC, and holy warriors of CG gods like Trithereon can play PoFs. Eager to hear your collective $0.02... Later on, Ghorrin
#10 caeruleus Jun 05, 2004 10:29:42	Originally posted by Ghorrin Hey there, Just curious, what is folks' take on the "Paladin of Freedom" from Unearthed Arcana (UA gave variant paladin class description for the other three 'corner' alignments)? At our table, we've pretty much shelved the Holy Liberator PrC, and holy warriors of CG gods like Trithereon can play PoFs. Eager to hear your collective $0.02... Later on, Ghorrin Personally, I didn't like the paladin of freedom. I just don't see why warriors dedicated to freedom would all have the same abilities, which mirror those of a lawful class. True, holy liberators will have abilities in common, but it's at least a little better insofar as it is a prestige class, and so is more likely to be combined with a wider variety of other abilites. I think fighters, clerics, rangers, and rogues (or multiclassing in these) in particular can make good holy liberators.