- Elements (Earth, Air, Water, Fire)
- Elemental Cults (uncivilised have things like ''God of the Volcano'')
- Paraelements (Rain, Magma, Sun, Silt)
- Badna (Raam, severe decline)
- Oba (Gulg, strong)
- Coraanu (Not worship, but deep respect and elven traditional hero)
- The Earth Mother (pterrans, strong, represents spirits of the land)
- The Now (elven philosophy)
- The Focus (dwarven philosophy)
- Stars (Draj and Noibeany have astrologers. Didn't elves have some rituals with stars?)
- The Twin Moons (The Drajian religion)
- Spirits of the Land
- The Dragon (not worshipped, but feared as an all powerful and destructive force)
- Ancestros (not worshipped, but dwarves, elves, and many others pay homage to their ancestors. Kreen also have some notions of ancestral worship and lore through their ancestral memories)
- Dej and Kano (Kreen heaven and hell, and reincarnation)
- The Great One (the Kreen most revered ancestor, almost a god or closest thing to it)
Any others?
also the two Giant tribes of the south worship the Oracle (Jorsh and Saram(sp?))
Dregoth would be true though, forgot about him.
And the Obsidian Oracle too.
Any others?
there's also the people of Saragar that regard the Mind lords as their protectors. They have that temple where the 3 mindlord faces slowly rotate to overlook the entire city.
Daskinor on the other hand has his entire city population in a state of paranoia.. So he has much more influence over his people when his state of mind stains the entire city.. dunno how his people look upon him though.
I'm not sure if this qualifies, but I believe Gulg had a system of fetish magic where spirits were bound to items. If not exactly worship, then at least mystical.
Originally posted by mekillot
I'm not sure if this qualifies, but I believe Gulg had a system of fetish magic where spirits were bound to items. If not exactly worship, then at least mystical.
Great idea but was a serious failling for the Veilled Alliance accessory, IMO. It was unclear what the animal spirit was supposed to be specifically, or what the spell was supposed to do.
As someone worked on those for 3.5? Cooked-up clarifications?
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
by taking what we know as naraitors and "educating" a group of people
this comes on the heels of some conversation about creating a language (my players and I were considering)
Originally posted by kefka
would anyone be intrerested in "creating" an athasian belief system...
by taking what we know as naraitors and "educating" a group of people
Back in 2001 on the DS list, we had a long conversation about the foundation of Athasian religious beliefs. I just went through the archives and pulled all the posts about it; it'll require some clean-up before I post it or anything.
The basic gist I put forward at the time is that, given their worship of the elements and the personal nature of a cleric's interaction with his patrons, Athasians would most likely hold to an animistic world-view -- that is, a view of divinity as inherent in the surrounding world, rather than external to reality.
Each field and grove would have it's own spirit, or rather BE its own spirit. That is, in animism, you don't pray to the spirit of the tree, but to the tree itself, because the tree is the spirit, not just a representation of it.
We also came up with the idea that the elemental planes were superimposed upon the physical world of Athas -- that is, they weren't really seperate planes (ie: places) at all, but essential demarcations of the surroundings. A boulder or a barren mountain range would be part of the plane of earth, an oasis would be the plane of water, etc. (not that you could "walk into the plane" -- but that they were physical manifestations of the ideas of the elemental planes -- journeying to "the planes," rather viewing and interacting with the world through the lens of that element, would still require high level magic).
This meshed with the idea that the para-elements were destroying or replacing the four meta-elements, as outlined in the EAFW book. As the Athas was eroded, the elemental base of reality was likewise eroded, since they were one and the same: each dried well caused the "elemental plane" of Water to shrink a little more. The physical destruction of Athas mirrored the spiritual conflict taking place among the elements, and vice versa.
if you don't mind telling... how north is northern minnesota
Originally posted by kefka
fascinating grey...
Yeah, I think so too, but that's me. I like these kinds of subjects.
if you don't mind telling... how north is northern minnesota
It used to be "could canoe into Canada for the day"(!)...now I'm more southerly, in the Iron Range area proper, west of Duluth.
to go beyond the notion of animism (I adopt in my campaign such a vision of the world for the most athasian cultures) and after reading a few anthropological texts about this topic (EB Tylor, Primitive Cultures. -IMHO the old ones are often the best because they far are more simplier and could easily be integrated in a game) it would be important to notice:
- "primitive" cultures have experienced first their own "spirit" (soul, mind, what you want...) and then have extended this concept to material things. (Tylor, Durkheim)
- The idea of "soul" comes from dreams. Actually these peoples asked themselves how can they wander during the night staying at the same place. An explication could have be that the human being is dual and that the "soul" could easily go around while the body rests.
- Interesting point: a manifestation of this duality is the shadow . A lots of beliefs explain that the shadow is the physically manifestation of the soul and who could harm the shadow can also harm the soul. Legends tell the superior powers of exceptional peoples who didn't have shadow. It was also important, if someone kills someone else, to have ritual to dispel the shadow (if not the soul could stay to haunt the murder --but I don't remember these rituals... I must check my notes)
- Specifically for Dark Sun: in my cosmology of Athas the Black manifests himself in shadows and people (who don't name this specifically "The Black") believes in the manifestation of their own soul (=respect + a kind of fear).
There's another belief: when someone dies (natural death or when the shadow is properly annihilated), the dead soul follow the "River of Souls". The source of the river is in the Black but the stream flows to The Grey. Thus the River of Souls is the link between The Black and The Grey.
Comments? Ideas? I hope it was clear and I apologize already for my poor english...;)
Nefal
Originally posted by Nefal
- The idea of "soul" comes from dreams. Actually these peoples asked themselves how can they wander during the night staying at the same place. An explication could have be that the human being is dual and that the "soul" could easily go around while the body rests.
I hate texts that refer to our ancestors as though they were some kind of idiots...it wouldn't take long for any individual to notice that half the places they went, and half the things they did while asleep didn't exist and didn't happen (ie: someone dreaming about someone else would awaken in the morning and find that the other person didn't share any memory of the dream)
Besides, you have to consider that people didn't just suddenly "start dreaming" -- through organic evolution, dreaming would have been noted long before we even had much language to communicate with (animals dream, after all). It wouldn't be noted as anything unusual.
I feel the answer is rather more complex and developed over a much longer period than "we started asking ourselves about this dream thing," because that would be like "asking yourself about this walking thing."
Sorry, pet peeve, and besides the point. We simply don't have enough data about culture and life during the period being referred to, to even make educated guesses about such a subject.
There's another belief: when someone dies (natural death or when the shadow is properly annihilated), the dead soul follow the "River of Souls". The source of the river is in the Black but the stream flows to The Grey. Thus the River of Souls is the link between The Black and The Grey.
Excepting that no one on Athas would have any conception of what a "river" is, so that imagery would be right out. Not sure what a link between the Gray and the Black would add to the cosmology, though? Any further thoughts on it?
Interesting ideas, though, regarding the shadow and the soul, and the powers that might be ascribed to one from it or its lack. I'll have to mull them over and see what comes out.
Back in the old days on the mailing list I started the Athasian Faiths and Mythology net project. It included a list of 'gods', and I sent a quick draft to Troy Denning, who gave me positive feedback on the project. I write 'gods' because the project did not take a stance pro or against real/fake gods. However, the list did include some obviously "fake" gods - such as an elemental and a demon. Too bad the project was lost many years ago.
I'm happy to see answers about such an interesting topic! :D
Let's try to precise my thoughts...
Originally posted by greyorm
I hate texts that refer to our ancestors as though they were some kind of idiots...
I would like to say that in no case I support evolutionism, ideas of cultural evolution or development theories. Such theories were developed at the beginning of the century and tried to explain "occidental" cultures through the analysis of the "primitive" societies/cultures. It implied a link between all cultures which went through different stages of evolution. This evolution was considered as linear and unique. This model of analysis permit also to consider some societies as simplier than others. In this context it was logical to study the "elementary forms of the religious life" (Durkheim;1912)... ok I'm too
... I know...I don't think that such autors refered to "our" ancestors as some kind of idiots. They tried to show the origin of the concept of the duality of the human being. I said I found that interesting because these theoric models are often simplier as the moderner (functinonalist, interactionist, etc.) they are often part of the "common sense" and so easily applicable in a game cosmology.
it wouldn't take long for any individual to notice that half the places they went, and half the things they did while asleep didn't exist and didn't happen (ie: someone dreaming about someone else would awaken in the morning and find that the other person didn't share any memory of the dream)
Besides, you have to consider that people didn't just suddenly "start dreaming" -- through organic evolution, dreaming would have been noted long before we even had much language to communicate with (animals dream, after all). It wouldn't be noted as anything unusual.
Your proof is based on a carthesian logic and the non-contradiction principle. That's part of our logical processes. You have to consider that this kind of principles are not everywhere the same. Maybe these people had developed a very rational theory to explain this fact. It also important to say that such principles are not permanent and immutable... they follow the culture in the time.
I don't know if the dream theory is good one. Or a bad one... and I don't care. What interests me is the perception of dreams in a given culture. For exemple in Peru there is still a community which can interact with strangers only after it has dreamed about them... and if you were implied in a nightmare... you'll be unwelcomed!
I feel the answer is rather more complex and developed over a much longer period than "we started asking ourselves about this dream thing," because that would be like "asking yourself about this walking thing."
Of course, agreed.
...but I'm talking about role playing games...
Sorry, pet peeve, and besides the point. We simply don't have enough data about culture and life during the period being referred to, to even make educated guesses about such a subject.
In the context of the studied cultures anthropological datas were seriously collected. To link the conclusions of these studies with the past of our ancestors is problematic and certainly incorrect.
What's the meaning of "pet peeve"
Excepting that no one on Athas would have any conception of what a "river" is, so that imagery would be right out. Not sure what a link between the Gray and the Black would add to the cosmology, though? Any further thoughts on it?
You play on words! ;) But I must admit: you've right... what do you think about a wind stream?
IMHO a link between The Gray and The Black could give the idea of the death as a trip: your soul travels from the Black to the Gray. Then funeral rituals could reflect this fact (for exemple, burn the corpse to free the soul, bury the dead with his personal things to assist him in the trip, etc.) Flavours, flavours...
The Black could also play the role of an "athasian dreamscape"
I always enjoy adventures in the world of dream. :D
Interesting ideas, though, regarding the shadow and the soul, and the powers that might be ascribed to one from it or its lack. I'll have to mull them over and see what comes out.
Thanks
I hope your brainstorming will be productive and I enjoy to read it...See you
Nef'