I assume at least CR 2, but perhaps 3?
So.. an NPC half-giant 2nd level fighter should be CR 4?.. 5?..
Thanks
-Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Thri-Kreen: CR1 (version used by Athas.org: Page 195, Monster Manual II; newer version: Page 213, Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Easy enough for you?
remember, Challenge Rating (CR) does not mean, nor is related to Level Adjustment (LA) or Effective Character Level (ECL). LA and ECL have to do with adjusting the level of a character for determining experience points needed to level that character - starting ECL is equal to the LA + any monster HD's. As such, the Athas.org Half-giant and Thri-Kreen both have a starting ECL of +3. However, Challenge Rating is the estimated level of an average party to be able to take on 1 of the creatures listed in the monster description. So, a Half-Giant or Thri-Kreen could be taken on by a group of level 1 characters. It is a very rough estimate, and your mileage may vary s even Wizards of the Coast considers CR determinations/calculations as more of an art than a science.
CR 1 seems a little low to me for a 18 Str giant with reach and a large-sized weapon, even if it does have only 2 HD. Sure, 4 characters could rip it apart if they win initiative and get past its reach, but a single blow, especially if it's a critical hit, could kill (-10) a 1st level character, such as a rogue, with full hp!. I consider the complete loss of a PC a little more than 20% of PC resources
.The same applies to a thri-kreen with four weapon attacks and a poisonous bite. Plus, given a kreen's high dex and natural armour, those same four characters may *not* be able to rip it apart in a round, perhaps giving it a chance to take out completely one or two characters. Although, the chance of going to -10 in a single blow isn't really there, thankfully.
I don't think the wizard-published thri-kreen are usable, as they have different abilities than the athas.org base thri-kreen.
I wasn't sure if I should make them CR 3, but I still think CR 1 is too low.. so I guess CR 2 it is for my game.
Thanks for the info and feedback.
I think the CR's are good as is. Don't go TOO easy on your PC's ;)
Originally posted by Krallus
Thanks! I had the DS3 Monster Manual PDF, but somehow missed the "Terrors of Athas" download.
CR 1 seems a little low to me for a 18 Str giant with reach and a large-sized weapon, even if it does have only 2 HD. Sure, 4 characters could rip it apart if they win initiative and get past its reach, but a single blow, especially if it's a critical hit, could kill (-10) a 1st level character, such as a rogue, with full hp!. I consider the complete loss of a PC a little more than 20% of PC resources
And the rogue who charges headling into battle in front of the far more combat-effective fighter deserves to be killed for his trouble. rogues should show more caution and intelligence in combat than that. They should be lining up to flank the Half-giant with another melee-type character to get those beautifully effective and downright lethal sneak attacks in play. Trust me, that Half Giant won't last very long against those kinds of attacks.
The half-giant would also have a very hard time against a group of 4 spellcasters, or spellcaster/manifeser mixed groups. there's nothing more lethal in the D&D system than a wizard who has had the opportunity to properly prepare for a fight. And a group of them doing that is just all kinds of wrong (I ran a campaign which consisted of 5 spellcasters: 4 wizards and 1 sorcerer. they'd always take the time to prepare for a fight, and...well.... fights usually lasted maybe 3 or 4 rounds tops when they were prepared properly. The Sorcerer in the group had some general-purpose combat spells to help them out in a pinch, and eventually multiclassed into cleric as well)
The same applies to a thri-kreen with four weapon attacks and a poisonous bite. Plus, given a kreen's high dex and natural armour, those same four characters may *not* be able to rip it apart in a round, perhaps giving it a chance to take out completely one or two characters. Although, the chance of going to -10 in a single blow isn't really there, thankfully.
I don't think the wizard-published thri-kreen are usable, as they have different abilities than the athas.org base thri-kreen.
You'd be surprised at how playtesting can prove this to not be as good as you first think. Especially if you give the Thri-Kreen weapons, rather than just their claws, and go out of the MM2 write-up for their stats. Individual Thri-Kreen can be taken down quite effectively by a wide variety of 4-character groups. I've tested this a lot, and actually completely agree that a CR1 is just about perfect.
Remember - CR1 doesn't mean that a group of level 1 characters should mop the floor with the creature. CR1 means that a group of 1st level characters should find the creature challenging. most humanoids are actually CR 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8. And, if you increase that Thri-Kreen or Half-giant with class levels, their CR increases by +1 for every hero class level you add (IIRC), if not more for classes that actually augment and are better suited for that creature (like a MM Dragon getting levels of Sorcerer or something).
I wasn't sure if I should make them CR 3, but I still think CR 1 is too low.. so I guess CR 2 it is for my game.
Thanks for the info and feedback. [/b]
No problem, but I'd still say that CR1 is about right for these two races. I'd suggest playtesting it and see for yourself. You could use the "perfect" group setup of 1 melee, 1 skilled, 1 arcane and 1 divine character, with psionic classes that could replace each of them (psion or wilder for arcane or divine, psychic warrior for melee, or soulblade for skilled), and you'd find that the creatures would be about right as a CR1. Other group combinations will return the same result.
One thing to add (it has been stated often enough that CRs are just rough guidelines): WotC has taken high strength scores in consideration (the ogre always was a pain for my players). The Ogre in the MM 3.5 has gotten a CR of 3.
That's what makes sense to me anyways.
Originally posted by Elonarc
Hey Kamelion, are you reminded of our argument considering this one? ;)
One thing to add (it has been stated often enough that CRs are just rough guidelines): WotC has taken high strength scores in consideration (the ogre always was a pain for my players). The Ogre in the MM 3.5 has gotten a CR of 3.
at the same time, the Thri-Kreen got changed a bit in the XPH, enough to warrent an extra +1 LA (for a total of +2 LA, or a ECL of +4), and yet the CR has remained the same.
Remember - CR1 doesn't mean that a group of level 1 characters should mop the floor with the creature. CR1 means that a group of 1st level characters should find the creature challenging. most humanoids are actually CR 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8.
A single CR 1 creature is an EL 1 encounter. (a single CR 2 creature can be EL 1 as well, by the way). For a group of 1st level PCs, an EL 1 encounter "should expend about 20% of their resources". So no "mopping", you're right, but while it may be "challenging", it's certainly not supposed to be very "tough" either. 20% of a 1st level party's total hp is what .. 6 hp? .. and 20% of spellcasting .. a single 1st level spell?
I agree that it's not cut-and-dry .. perhaps it will be more clear to me, as you say, during play, but it is clear to me now that neither of them is CR 3 :-).
My take is that the hg is fine at CR1 (not so sure about the kreen, though - a thought for another time). Compare it to the sahuagin or the kuo-toa, both also CR2 and also 2HD. Although neither possesses the hg's physical stats, both have better spreads of combat abilities, better AC bonuses and are a fair bit smarter. The hg is a brute-force powerhouse but is very much a one-trick pony. Strength is not the benchmark for combat effectiveness or CR as it can be neutralised as a factor by any well-prepared party. It is the overall combat effectiveness (or lack of it) that keeps the hg at CR1.
Imho ;).
I think the comparison with the mul would be more favourable if the mul were dropped in CR. I used to think they were fine as CR1 but over time, I am more of the opinion that the mul's various abilities, while they deserve an LA, do not impact on battle with PCs enough to warrant a higher CR (Elonarc, :P) Anyone else have any thoughts on this?