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Help with the Greyhawk Pantheons...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2004 9:20:47 My DM and I were talking about this last night. What relationships, if any, are there amongst the various deities? In the Greek Mythos Cronos and Rhea begat Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Hera, Demeter etc. Zeus and Hera begat Ares, Apollo etc. I know Heironeous and Hextor are brothers and my DM named their mother (the name escapes me) but she's an obscure goddess. How would the pantheons be arranged? Are there any relationships between Oeridian, Suel, Baklunish, etc? Are we to assume that nearly all of these deities ascended to godhood as mortals? I'd love to see a family tree.

Just curious. Anyone have any ideas?
#2
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2004 9:37:18 The LGG mentions relationships between some of the gods in passing. Don't have it with me so can't quote them.

It always occured to me that Beory and Pelor might be considered Oerth Mother and Sun Father by the Flan, with perhaps Rao and Allitur being their Sons?

P.
#3
Greyson
May 18, 2004 9:40:52 Hey, Valkaun.

You ask a really big question with a lot of alterntative answers and different interpretations. I suggest searching through and poring over discussions in the Greytalk Archives. Search for "Creation Myths" and you will ge a few different assertions on how the Greyhawk gods are related.

For example, one myth asserts that Pelor and Beory are married and they begat several of the gods from their union. Another myth suggests that Beory "dances" with Pelor and Nerull, thus day and night. This latter relationship triangle also results in the "birth" of other Oerth gods.

But definitely search through Greytalk, it will be worth your time and and effort.
#4
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2004 9:50:39 Some one is banging Wee Jas too, but I can't rememeber who. I'd offer guesses, but I wouldn't wanna **** off the big guy...
#5
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2004 9:53:45 Then ofcourse there is Zagyg who served Boccob in his mortal days.

Al'Akbar served Rao?

Mayaheine served, umm Pelor?
#6
Halberkill
May 18, 2004 11:08:48
Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain
I know Heironeous and Hextor are brothers and my DM named their mother (the name escapes me) but she's an obscure goddess.

According to the Chainmail history, which is set on Oerth, Stern Alia is the mother of Heironeous(LG), Hextor(LE), and Stratis(LN). I beleive they all have different fathers.

Being that Chainmail is no more, and most people are unaware of it's connections to Greyhawk, accept it as you will.

Halber
#7
avfanatic
May 18, 2004 11:56:19 This is compiled from "The World of Greyhawk Boxed Set", "Greyhawk the Adventure Begins", and "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer"

Relationships
Berei serves Beory
Zodal serves Rao
Zuoken serves Xan Yae
Heironeus is half-brother of Hextor

Conflict
(violent warfare on sight)
Tharizdun vs. everyone
Vecna vs. Iuz (and everyone else)
St. Cuthbert vs. Iuz
Heironeous vs. Hextor
Rao vs. Iuz

Antipathies
(rivalries just short of war)
St. Cuthbert vs. Pholtus
Ehlonna vs. Obad-Hai
Fortubo vs. other Suel deities
Wee Jas vs. chaotic Suel deities
Trithereon vs. lawful deities

Alliances
Boccob + Zagyg (servant of Boccob)
Pelor + Mayaheine (servant of Pelor)
Celestian + Fharlanghn (brothers)
Ulaa + Bleredd (married)
Norebo +Wee Jas (lovers)
Pelor + Rao (allies)
Rao + Zilchus (allies)
Beory + Ehlonna (allies)
Beory + Ulaa (allies)
Fortubo + Moradin, Berronar (allies)
Ehlonna + Seldarine elven deities (allies)
Wee Jas + lawful Suel deities (loose allies)
Osprem + Xerbo (loose allies)
Jascar + Phaulkon (loose allies)
Pyremius + Syul (loose allies)
Nerull + Incabulos (loose allies)
#8
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2004 14:22:44 The Greytalk tip sounds interesting Greyson, I appreciate that. I'll look into it.
#9
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2004 16:22:23 Hmm, by the Old Faith... Beory is married to Pelor and Nerull and has like four children (gods) with Pelor and two with Nerull who she vowed she would never concieve with... though he tricked her
I read that anyway, in one of the LGJ... good stuff that... I think its issue 15.
#10
eric_anondson
May 18, 2004 16:45:11 Here's some more groupings:

Related
Procan fathered Atroa
Procan fathered Sotillion
Procan fathered Telchur
Procan fathered Velnius
Procan fathered Wenta
Procan is uncle to Merikka
Zilchus and Kurell are brothers
Allitur and Rao are brothers
Fharlanghn and Celestian are brothers
Hextor and Heironeous are brothers
Dalt and Vatun are brothers
Fortubo and Jascar are brothers
Kord is son of Phaulkon and Syrul, grandson to Lendor

Other relationships
Zilchus is Sotillion's lover
Kurell was once Atroa's lover, but spurned Atroa to seek Sotillion.
Joramy is the estranged lover to Zodal

Regards,
Eric Anondson [Edit for including more brothers...]
#11
avfanatic
May 18, 2004 16:54:36 Telchur and Vatun are at war (Telchur's clerics imprisoned Vatun)
#12
avfanatic
May 18, 2004 17:12:06 These are the human gods including racial origin, which ones have become common, and non-human followers of significant numbers.

Common Pantheon
Beory
Boccob
Incabulous
Nerull
Pelor
Procan
Rao
Ulaa (Dwarves, Gnomes, Deep Halflings)
Zilchus
Cyndor
Allitur
Atroa
Berei
Bleredd
Bralm
Celestian
Ehlonna (Elves,Gnomes,Tallfellow Halflings)
Erythnul (Gnolls,Bugbears,Ogres,Trolls)
Fharlanghn
Geshtai
Heironeous
Hextor
Joramy
Lirr
Lydia
Myhriss
Mayaheine
Obad-Hai
Olidammara
Pholtus
Ralishaz
St. Cuthbert
Sotillion
Telchur
Trithereon
Wenta
Xan Yae
Ye’Cind
Zodal
Iuz
Rudd
Zagyg
Zuoken

Unknown Origins
Tharizdun
Wastri

Baklunish Origins
Istus
Geshtai (common)
Xan Yae (common)
Zuoken (common)
Al’ Akbar
Mougol

Flan Origins
Beory (common)
Nerull (common)
Pelor (common)
Rao (common)
Allitur (common)
Berei (common)
Obad-Hai (common)
Zodal (common)
Iuz (common)

Oeridian Orgins
Procan (common)
Zilchus (common)
Atroa (common)
Celestian (common)
Delleb
Erythnul (common)
Fharlanghn (common)
Heironeus (common)
Hextor (common)
Kurell
Merikka
Pholtus (common)
Sotillion (common)
Telchur (common)
Velnius
Wenta (common)
Rudd (common)

Suloise Origins
Kord
Lendor
Wee Jas
Beltar
Bralm (common)
Fortubo (Dwarves)
Llerg
Lydia (common)
Norebo
Phaulkon
Phyton
Pyremius
Syrul
Xerbo
Jascar
Dalt
Osprem
Vatun
#13
mortellan
May 18, 2004 18:11:04 good lists avfan, though I think the bloodlines and romantic relationships are more important here than their cultural origins and emnities which are fairly well known.

Rudd is the daughter of Norebo.

Kord is son of Phaulkon and Syrul, grandson to Lendor

What a childhood he must've had. Dad was always off in the clouds, mom always lied and promised him things and grandpa always put him to sleep with tedius stories.
#14
eric_anondson
May 18, 2004 18:36:23
Originally posted by mortellan
Rudd is the daughter of Norebo.

Not according to the LGG.

The LGG says that Rudd ascended to godhood from mortality with Olidammara's help. It also says that Rudd is friendly with her mentor (Olidammara) and Norebo, but opposes Zagyg, Ralishaz, and Iuz.

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#15
cwslyclgh
May 18, 2004 20:02:23 I do not think that Vatun is actually related to the the other Suel gods (and thus could not be brothers with Dalt).... it is said in multiple places that Vatun was not worshiped in the suel imperium, and is only listed with the Suel gods because most of his worshipers are decended from the suel... (The OJ that tried to shoe horn him into the pantheon not with standing...).
#16
eric_anondson
May 18, 2004 20:28:16
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
I do not think that Vatun is actually related to the the other Suel gods (and thus could not be brothers with Dalt).... it is said in multiple places that Vatun was not worshiped in the suel imperium, and is only listed with the Suel gods because most of his worshipers are decended from the suel... (The OJ that tried to shoe horn him into the pantheon not with standing...).

Okay, but I'm referring to the LGG, which on page 169 says, "Dalt (DAHLT) was forgotten for many years while he sought to free his brother Vatun; he is once again recognized as a god, although still primarily venerated by the Suloise people in the southeast."

There was a lot of time between the end of the Suel Imperium and the current period for other Suel deities to arrive on the scene. Vatun is already evidence that a particular "ethnic" deity didn't have to be around from the beginning of recorded history to be categorized as a deity of that particular ethnicity. It would be interesting to read a "history" that tied together all the loose ends here about Dalt (being primarily worshipped in the southest) and Vatun (being exclusively worshipped in the northeast) being brothers.

For instance, imagine that two mortal brothers ascended to godhood during the time of the great migrations. One led the Suel peoples that settled the Thillonrian Peninsula (Vatun), and the other was an important person among the Suel peoples that were pushed by the Aerdy and settled the fringes of the southeast (Dalt).

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#17
avfanatic
May 18, 2004 21:19:14 "Scarlet Brotherhood" by Sean Reynolds also lists Vatun as Suel and brother to Dalt.

EDIT: The Suel migrations began a little over a 1000 years ago and Vatun was imprisoned 700 years ago, so it's possible that the Suel who migrated and became the Frost/Ice/Snow barbarians began his worship, which would place him outside of the Impergium.
#18
mortellan
May 18, 2004 21:36:50 Vatun's inclusion to the GH god roster has always been a curious move in my opinion. He was almost contrived just to set up the '5 shall be one' adventures.
#19
zombiegleemax
May 19, 2004 11:13:58 A couple (mostly non-human) additions:

Conflicts
Corellon vs. Gruumsh
Corellon (and Sehinine) vs. Lolth
Deep Sashelas vs. Panzuriel
Moradin vs. Gruumsh
Clanggedin vs. Maglubiyet
Gruumsh vs. Maglubiyet
Hextor vs. the Lords of the Nine
Garl vs. Kurtulmak
Ilsensine vs. everybody else
Graz'zt vs. Orcus vs. Demogorgon
Yeenoghu vs. Baphomet
Bahamut vs. Tiamat
The evil archomentals vs. the good archomentals

Antipathies
Pholtus vs. everybody else
Wee Jas vs. Boccob

Relationships:
Iuz is Graz'zt's son

Isn't Nerull 'allied' with Tharizdun?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 18, 2004 9:20:47	My DM and I were talking about this last night. What relationships, if any, are there amongst the various deities? In the Greek Mythos Cronos and Rhea begat Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Hera, Demeter etc. Zeus and Hera begat Ares, Apollo etc. I know Heironeous and Hextor are brothers and my DM named their mother (the name escapes me) but she's an obscure goddess. How would the pantheons be arranged? Are there any relationships between Oeridian, Suel, Baklunish, etc? Are we to assume that nearly all of these deities ascended to godhood as mortals? I'd love to see a family tree. Just curious. Anyone have any ideas?
#2 zombiegleemax May 18, 2004 9:37:18	The LGG mentions relationships between some of the gods in passing. Don't have it with me so can't quote them. It always occured to me that Beory and Pelor might be considered Oerth Mother and Sun Father by the Flan, with perhaps Rao and Allitur being their Sons? P.
#3 Greyson May 18, 2004 9:40:52	Hey, Valkaun. You ask a really big question with a lot of alterntative answers and different interpretations. I suggest searching through and poring over discussions in the Greytalk Archives. Search for "Creation Myths" and you will ge a few different assertions on how the Greyhawk gods are related. For example, one myth asserts that Pelor and Beory are married and they begat several of the gods from their union. Another myth suggests that Beory "dances" with Pelor and Nerull, thus day and night. This latter relationship triangle also results in the "birth" of other Oerth gods. But definitely search through Greytalk, it will be worth your time and and effort.
#4 zombiegleemax May 18, 2004 9:50:39	Some one is banging Wee Jas too, but I can't rememeber who. I'd offer guesses, but I wouldn't wanna **** off the big guy...
#5 zombiegleemax May 18, 2004 9:53:45	Then ofcourse there is Zagyg who served Boccob in his mortal days. Al'Akbar served Rao? Mayaheine served, umm Pelor?
#6 Halberkill May 18, 2004 11:08:48	Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain I know Heironeous and Hextor are brothers and my DM named their mother (the name escapes me) but she's an obscure goddess. According to the Chainmail history, which is set on Oerth, Stern Alia is the mother of Heironeous(LG), Hextor(LE), and Stratis(LN). I beleive they all have different fathers. Being that Chainmail is no more, and most people are unaware of it's connections to Greyhawk, accept it as you will. Halber
#7 avfanatic May 18, 2004 11:56:19	This is compiled from "The World of Greyhawk Boxed Set", "Greyhawk the Adventure Begins", and "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer" Relationships Berei serves Beory Zodal serves Rao Zuoken serves Xan Yae Heironeus is half-brother of Hextor Conflict (violent warfare on sight) Tharizdun vs. everyone Vecna vs. Iuz (and everyone else) St. Cuthbert vs. Iuz Heironeous vs. Hextor Rao vs. Iuz Antipathies (rivalries just short of war) St. Cuthbert vs. Pholtus Ehlonna vs. Obad-Hai Fortubo vs. other Suel deities Wee Jas vs. chaotic Suel deities Trithereon vs. lawful deities Alliances Boccob + Zagyg (servant of Boccob) Pelor + Mayaheine (servant of Pelor) Celestian + Fharlanghn (brothers) Ulaa + Bleredd (married) Norebo +Wee Jas (lovers) Pelor + Rao (allies) Rao + Zilchus (allies) Beory + Ehlonna (allies) Beory + Ulaa (allies) Fortubo + Moradin, Berronar (allies) Ehlonna + Seldarine elven deities (allies) Wee Jas + lawful Suel deities (loose allies) Osprem + Xerbo (loose allies) Jascar + Phaulkon (loose allies) Pyremius + Syul (loose allies) Nerull + Incabulos (loose allies)
#8 zombiegleemax May 18, 2004 14:22:44	The Greytalk tip sounds interesting Greyson, I appreciate that. I'll look into it.
#9 zombiegleemax May 18, 2004 16:22:23	Hmm, by the Old Faith... Beory is married to Pelor and Nerull and has like four children (gods) with Pelor and two with Nerull who she vowed she would never concieve with... though he tricked her I read that anyway, in one of the LGJ... good stuff that... I think its issue 15.
#10 eric_anondson May 18, 2004 16:45:11	Here's some more groupings: Related Procan fathered Atroa Procan fathered Sotillion Procan fathered Telchur Procan fathered Velnius Procan fathered Wenta Procan is uncle to Merikka Zilchus and Kurell are brothers Allitur and Rao are brothers Fharlanghn and Celestian are brothers Hextor and Heironeous are brothers Dalt and Vatun are brothers Fortubo and Jascar are brothers Kord is son of Phaulkon and Syrul, grandson to Lendor Other relationships Zilchus is Sotillion's lover Kurell was once Atroa's lover, but spurned Atroa to seek Sotillion. Joramy is the estranged lover to Zodal Regards, Eric Anondson [Edit for including more brothers...]
#11 avfanatic May 18, 2004 16:54:36	Telchur and Vatun are at war (Telchur's clerics imprisoned Vatun)
#12 avfanatic May 18, 2004 17:12:06	These are the human gods including racial origin, which ones have become common, and non-human followers of significant numbers. Common Pantheon Beory Boccob Incabulous Nerull Pelor Procan Rao Ulaa (Dwarves, Gnomes, Deep Halflings) Zilchus Cyndor Allitur Atroa Berei Bleredd Bralm Celestian Ehlonna (Elves,Gnomes,Tallfellow Halflings) Erythnul (Gnolls,Bugbears,Ogres,Trolls) Fharlanghn Geshtai Heironeous Hextor Joramy Lirr Lydia Myhriss Mayaheine Obad-Hai Olidammara Pholtus Ralishaz St. Cuthbert Sotillion Telchur Trithereon Wenta Xan Yae Ye’Cind Zodal Iuz Rudd Zagyg Zuoken Unknown Origins Tharizdun Wastri Baklunish Origins Istus Geshtai (common) Xan Yae (common) Zuoken (common) Al’ Akbar Mougol Flan Origins Beory (common) Nerull (common) Pelor (common) Rao (common) Allitur (common) Berei (common) Obad-Hai (common) Zodal (common) Iuz (common) Oeridian Orgins Procan (common) Zilchus (common) Atroa (common) Celestian (common) Delleb Erythnul (common) Fharlanghn (common) Heironeus (common) Hextor (common) Kurell Merikka Pholtus (common) Sotillion (common) Telchur (common) Velnius Wenta (common) Rudd (common) Suloise Origins Kord Lendor Wee Jas Beltar Bralm (common) Fortubo (Dwarves) Llerg Lydia (common) Norebo Phaulkon Phyton Pyremius Syrul Xerbo Jascar Dalt Osprem Vatun
#13 mortellan May 18, 2004 18:11:04	good lists avfan, though I think the bloodlines and romantic relationships are more important here than their cultural origins and emnities which are fairly well known. Rudd is the daughter of Norebo. Kord is son of Phaulkon and Syrul, grandson to Lendor What a childhood he must've had. Dad was always off in the clouds, mom always lied and promised him things and grandpa always put him to sleep with tedius stories.
#14 eric_anondson May 18, 2004 18:36:23	Originally posted by mortellan Rudd is the daughter of Norebo. Not according to the LGG. The LGG says that Rudd ascended to godhood from mortality with Olidammara's help. It also says that Rudd is friendly with her mentor (Olidammara) and Norebo, but opposes Zagyg, Ralishaz, and Iuz. Regards, Eric Anondson
#15 cwslyclgh May 18, 2004 20:02:23	I do not think that Vatun is actually related to the the other Suel gods (and thus could not be brothers with Dalt).... it is said in multiple places that Vatun was not worshiped in the suel imperium, and is only listed with the Suel gods because most of his worshipers are decended from the suel... (The OJ that tried to shoe horn him into the pantheon not with standing...).
#16 eric_anondson May 18, 2004 20:28:16	Originally posted by cwslyclgh I do not think that Vatun is actually related to the the other Suel gods (and thus could not be brothers with Dalt).... it is said in multiple places that Vatun was not worshiped in the suel imperium, and is only listed with the Suel gods because most of his worshipers are decended from the suel... (The OJ that tried to shoe horn him into the pantheon not with standing...). Okay, but I'm referring to the LGG, which on page 169 says, "Dalt (DAHLT) was forgotten for many years while he sought to free his brother Vatun; he is once again recognized as a god, although still primarily venerated by the Suloise people in the southeast." There was a lot of time between the end of the Suel Imperium and the current period for other Suel deities to arrive on the scene. Vatun is already evidence that a particular "ethnic" deity didn't have to be around from the beginning of recorded history to be categorized as a deity of that particular ethnicity. It would be interesting to read a "history" that tied together all the loose ends here about Dalt (being primarily worshipped in the southest) and Vatun (being exclusively worshipped in the northeast) being brothers. For instance, imagine that two mortal brothers ascended to godhood during the time of the great migrations. One led the Suel peoples that settled the Thillonrian Peninsula (Vatun), and the other was an important person among the Suel peoples that were pushed by the Aerdy and settled the fringes of the southeast (Dalt). Regards, Eric Anondson
#17 avfanatic May 18, 2004 21:19:14	"Scarlet Brotherhood" by Sean Reynolds also lists Vatun as Suel and brother to Dalt. EDIT: The Suel migrations began a little over a 1000 years ago and Vatun was imprisoned 700 years ago, so it's possible that the Suel who migrated and became the Frost/Ice/Snow barbarians began his worship, which would place him outside of the Impergium.
#18 mortellan May 18, 2004 21:36:50	Vatun's inclusion to the GH god roster has always been a curious move in my opinion. He was almost contrived just to set up the '5 shall be one' adventures.
#19 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 11:13:58	A couple (mostly non-human) additions: Conflicts Corellon vs. Gruumsh Corellon (and Sehinine) vs. Lolth Deep Sashelas vs. Panzuriel Moradin vs. Gruumsh Clanggedin vs. Maglubiyet Gruumsh vs. Maglubiyet Hextor vs. the Lords of the Nine Garl vs. Kurtulmak Ilsensine vs. everybody else Graz'zt vs. Orcus vs. Demogorgon Yeenoghu vs. Baphomet Bahamut vs. Tiamat The evil archomentals vs. the good archomentals Antipathies Pholtus vs. everybody else Wee Jas vs. Boccob Relationships: Iuz is Graz'zt's son Isn't Nerull 'allied' with Tharizdun?