Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_White_Sorcerer May 18, 2004 16:35:49	The Qualinesti get a +1 bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive because "Qualinesti are more inclined than most elves to deal with other races." WTF? Using that logic, kender should get a +10 bonus to Diplomacy and Sense motive. The other elves already get a -2 to Charisma, representing their aloofness and isolationism. Why do the Qualinesti get an additional bonus?
#2 baron_the_curse May 18, 2004 18:42:07	Elves have such a bad reputation for being aloff and just plain snotty that it must be nice to meet an elf that is willing to treat with non-elves on a equal basis. And unlike the Silvanesti, the Qualinesti won't make it obvious how lowly they think of some people, they'll do that politely and privately away from those people. Or hell, maybe the Qualinesti just get those bonuses because they're just more diplomatic than most elves in any realm.
#3 The_White_Sorcerer May 19, 2004 1:09:43	Originally posted by Baron the Curse Elves have such a bad reputation for being aloff and just plain snotty that it must be nice to meet an elf that is willing to treat with non-elves on a equal basis. Qualinesti don't treat non-elves on an equal basis. Or hell, maybe the Qualinesti just get those bonuses because they're just more diplomatic than most elves in any realm. But that's not the reason given in the book. And they may be more diplomatic than other elves, but they're much less diplomatic than other races.
#4 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 1:57:08	For me is this logic. The Qualinesty must more to arrange with other people as other elfs. Then they are open for other peoples. So in my opinion the bonus is ok. Diplomaty goes other charisma. And Qualinesty are the best elfs in they eys there other peoples. when you look to the silvanesti they have malus from -2 at charisma. Kender + 10 Diplomatie why? Why they so good bluff or give perfect reasonable for pick pocketing. not a good idea. The players find Kender funny, the same is with Gully Dwarfs, but the most player dont know that the NCs at Krynn they not really like.
#5 The_White_Sorcerer May 19, 2004 6:50:26	Originally posted by Knight of the Lily For me is this logic. The Qualinesty must more to arrange with other people as other elfs. Then they are open for other peoples. Since when have the Qualinesti been open to other people? So in my opinion the bonus is ok. Diplomaty goes other charisma. And Qualinesty are the best elfs in they eys there other peoples. when you look to the silvanesti they have malus from -2 at charisma. That's the thing. The other elven races already get a penalty to Charisma to represent that they're less prone to deal with non-elves than the Qualinesti. Kender + 10 Diplomatie why? Because kender "are more inclined than most elves to deal with other races". Actually, they're more inclined than any other race to deal with other races.
#6 baron_the_curse May 19, 2004 6:55:35	Kender's are inclined to deal with anything, including Chaos spawns! That doesn't make them charismatic. Sure their fun, but they get irritatingly cheerful and tend to "borrow" everything in sight. As for the Qualinesti aside from a few old fashion Senators they're pretty open minded to other races. After all the royal family did raise a half-elf within their palace walls.
#7 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 7:01:28	Sorry Silvanesti are arogant, intolerant and snotty to other races = - 2 charisma. Qualinesti have shared from Silvanesti. So they ae going in other areas. There they must agret and tolerate with other races how Dwarfs, nomads, human to survive. In the qualinestiforest is the magetower. I think this has make the qualinesti to make good diplomaty. And to Kender i have sayed this : Kender + 10 Diplomatie why? Why they so good bluff or give perfect reasonable for pick pocketing. not a good idea. The players find Kender funny, the same is with Gully Dwarfs, but the most player dont know that the NCs at Krynn they not really like. And let me say so: Kender was in the most towns not nice to seen. They are go mostly in jail because pick pocketing and was go kick out for the towngates. Kender have not a good call. So they have not good diplomacy.
#8 The_White_Sorcerer May 19, 2004 7:04:32	The Qualinesti already get an effective +2 Charisma over the other elf races to represent their greater openness. But they're still more aloof and closeminded than other races (except dwarves). So why are they better at diplomacy than humans?
#9 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 7:09:59	They have no bonus in charisma. they other have malus or?!
#10 wolffenjugend_dup May 19, 2004 8:46:17	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer But they're still more aloof and closeminded than other races (except dwarves). Where is that stated? Source? Otherwise, that's just one person's opinion...
#11 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 9:14:17	The Qualinesti showed their aloofness and closemindedness on many an occasion. Whilst not as much as the Silvanesti. Remember in Chronicles when Solostaran refused to believe that the gods would show evidence of their return to humans rather than elves? Or Gilthanas mental issues over falling in love with one not of his kind? Or the nation's treatment of Tanis Half Elven all his life, eventually driving him to abandon Qualinesti, seeking his life outside the forest realm away from the people who scorned him. Another grand example of the Qualinesti and their aloof attitude is very simply put..... Porthios. But true the Qualinesti are less aloof, isolationist, and closeminded than the Silvanseti.....hence their bonus to diplomacy.
#12 The_White_Sorcerer May 19, 2004 9:24:45	Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst But true the Qualinesti are less aloof, isolationist, and closeminded than the Silvanseti.....hence their bonus to diplomacy. But they already have an effective +2 Charisma over the Silvanesti. The bonus to Diplomacy and Sense motive would suggest that they're less aloof, isolationist, and closeminded than humans (who get no such bonus).
#13 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 9:40:52	Well, the Qualinesti never erected a shield around their homeland, Gilthas asked for help from the Dwarves to build the tunnels that helped the Qualinesti escape Beryl's attack, the Speaker of the Sun held an open court with the Heroes of the Lance and asked their help at Pax Tharkas, they never labeled Laurana a dark elf for galavanting with a half-elf. They have more practice in diplomacy in my opinion, hence the +1 to diplomacy and sense motive. I mean come on...what kind of diplomacy would it take to get a bunch of dwarves to dig tunnels under Qualinost for the elven people and then convince those elves that it was a good idea. The Silvanesti did create a shield to protect them from "un-desirables" (namely everyone else in the world), and they won't even aknowledge the help that they recieved during the War of the Lance and afterwards against Lorac's dream. In fact after the dream was completely defeated, they ran Porthios, the elf they rallied behind and supported fully, out of Silvanesti as a dark elf claiming that he would try to take the elven throne, and "forgot" that he ever had a hand in it. They labeled Ahalana a dark knight because she married Prothios in an attempt to bring their two nations together in peace. The Silvanesti have made every attempt short of sailing off to an other contenent to distance themselves from other races. Silvanesti would rather deal with themselves than deal with other races and when they do they are a lot more aloof and rude than the Qualinesti. And now the obvious statement: It is your game after all. If you feel that the kender deserve a bonus to Diplomacy, go ahead. I gave all my players the Spot and Listen skills reguardless of class or race with the idea that they are adventurers, they would be pretty good at looking around and listening for something unusual. Also if they can give a good reason, I don't see why not give another untrained skill that is not a class skill, and REALLY good reason on having one trained class skill. Gives your chars a bit more background and something special that sets them apart.
#14 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 10:38:36	But White Sorcerer isn't saying that kender deserve the +10 bonus to diplomacy, what she is saying is that if the logic justifying the Qualinesti gaining a +1 bonus to diplomacy is that they are "more inclined to deal with other races" then one must agree that the kender, as the most inclined to deal with other races, should receive an even greater bonus. So, I think that the real question should be is "What makes the Qualinesti naturally, and skillfully diplomatic?" What is the justification? It certainly isn't their willingness to deal with other races, because they only seem to do so when necessary. And willingness to be diplomatic doesn't equal a talent for diplomacy. And one can't simply say that the Qualinesti gain a bonus to diplomacy in comparison to the arrogance and isolation of the other Elven races. Then one could argue (once more) kender should gain a bonus to diplomacy because many are even less arrogant and isolated in comparison to all the other races of Ansalon. So what is it? In my opinion, the justification from the DLCS certainly doesn't fit the picture of the Qualinesti I've come to be familiar with.
#15 brimstone May 19, 2004 11:34:53	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer Since when have the Qualinesti been open to other people? They were very open to all the races...until the Cataclysm. Then they closed up like the Silvanesti (similarily blaming the rest of the world for the catastrophe).
#16 The_White_Sorcerer May 19, 2004 12:27:34	Originally posted by Shadowalk Nimblefeet So, I think that the real question should be is "What makes the Qualinesti naturally, and skillfully diplomatic?" What is the justification? YES! This is what I mean! The justification in the DLCS just doesn't work.
#17 dragontooth May 19, 2004 14:22:04	I think where the +1 to diplomacy, and sense motive comes into effect. Is because even though Q. Elves believe other races are below them. They have a tendancy to bond with other races quicker after learning hey we aren't any different then they are. Take for instance Laurana, and Githanas they both bond well with the others Heros of the Lance. If Portios would of traveled with the Heros he too would of bonded with them. Just like it didn't take long for Portios to accept the S. Elves. (its also something to keep Dragonlance elves slightly different then your general players handbook elves thats more then likely the reason)
#18 elthbert May 22, 2004 13:46:08	well They're opinions do seem to carry alot of wieght with the other races just look how Lauranas word was taken by the Knights over a knight of the rose even though she was a women, She was royal elven blood. no one would dare think she was lying likewise through out the books everyone assumes that the elves are honorable( even those who don't like them) that is probably where there diplomacy comes in.
#19 zombiegleemax May 22, 2004 15:40:09	Agreed, how many people would take a Kender at face value? But then I see the point: why give not give a bonus to other races? I guess to set them apart from other elves.
#20 wolffenjugend_dup May 22, 2004 19:18:57	The Qualinesti have a rich history of incorporating themselves with other races (often out of necessity). See the Elven Nations trilogy for details. The Qualinesti have a great deal of experience in working out problems with other races, thus the bonus to Diplomacy. Problem solved.
#21 zombiegleemax May 22, 2004 21:43:06	Originally posted by wolffenjugend The Qualinesti have a rich history of incorporating themselves with other races (often out of necessity). See the Elven Nations trilogy for details. The Qualinesti have a great deal of experience in working out problems with other races, thus the bonus to Diplomacy. Problem solved. This is pretty much the rationale that we used. The Qualinesti, prior to the Cataclysm, were indeed very open to incorporating and involving themselves with the other races. Elves wanting to deal with humans, and marrying them, was what led to the Schism between the Q & S anyways. Over time, the Qualinesti attitude shifted, primarily amongst the elder generation who blamed the humans for the Cataclysm, which in turn infected the younger generation with their distrust. Just because someone dislikes someone else, however, does not make them any less Diplomatic. Look at it this way: A Kagonesti elf meets a strange human in the days following the Cataclysm...their most likely action would be to gut the human for trespassing, or to stay far away from him. A Dimernesti/Dargonesti might save a drowning sailor (or not, depending on their mood), but are just as likely to wipe the sailor's memory afterwards. A Silvanesti encountering a human would treat them with cold, haughty disdain, probably exchanging more than a few insulting words and sparking a fight. A Qualinesti, on the other hand, would probably be fairly gracious and (yep, here's the word we are looking for!) "diplomatic," being quite courteous to the human, even if they are keeping the human at arrow's length away. The key to remember is that Diplomacy isn't necessarily being NICE... it's more akin to being able to smile and make pleasant talk while holding a knife to someone's throat ;) Christopher
#22 The_White_Sorcerer May 23, 2004 5:17:50	Originally posted by Stormprince This is pretty much the rationale that we used. This is the rationale you used: "Though they can be as aloof as the Silvanesti, Qualinesti are more inclined than most elves to deal with other races." If the explanation in the book was actually something like "The Qualinesti have a long history of dealing with other races and are naturally diplomatic", I'd have no problem with it. But since they already have an effective +1 bonus to all Charisma skills when compared to other elves, the "more inclined than most elves" explanation doesn't really work.
#23 zombiegleemax May 23, 2004 6:43:29	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer This is the rationale you used: "Though they can be as aloof as the Silvanesti, Qualinesti are more inclined than most elves to deal with other races." If the explanation in the book was actually something like "The Qualinesti have a long history of dealing with other races and are naturally diplomatic", I'd have no problem with it. But since they already have an effective +1 bonus to all Charisma skills when compared to other elves, the "more inclined than most elves" explanation doesn't really work. Welcome to the wonderful world of editing, where things are cut down to make room for other thing and reworded as needed. However, "more inclined than most elves to deal with other races," is accurate...of the elven races, the Qualinesti have had more dealings with other races. Like I said... DIPLOMACY is not being friendly and touchy-feely. The dictionary defines Diplomacy as: 1. The art or practice of conducting international relations, as in negotiating alliances, treaties, and agreements. 2. Tact and skill in dealing with people. Consider the +2 Charisma "advantage" they have over other elven races as something they "inherited" from their dealings with humanity, which they did have for many centuries prior to the Cataclysm. In the novels, a handful of elves are displayed... but Laurana is perhaps the most shining example of the "ideal" Qualinesti. Porthos, however, is not. It's even said, multiple times if I remember correctly, that he's always been more "Silvanesti" than "Qualinesti." *sighs* You know... I'm beginning to see a wall...so after this, I'm just not gonna bother hitting my head against it any more. If you don't like it, bloody well change it, don't use the rule in your own game I'm not feeling very diplomatic myself....perhaps I fumbled my d20 roll. Christopher
#24 zombiegleemax May 23, 2004 12:49:18	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer This is the rationale you used: "Though they can be as aloof as the Silvanesti, Qualinesti are more inclined than most elves to deal with other races." But since they already have an effective +1 bonus to all Charisma skills when compared to other elves, the "more inclined than most elves" explanation doesn't really work. Sure it does. Being "more inclined than most elves to deal with other races" doesn't preclude them from being diplomatic to the point of surpassing humans. You just didn't like that they didn't spell it out for you in the flavor text. Consider also the power of reputation in a diplomatic engagement. How many Qualinesti double crosses or betrayals have you heard of? Very few, if *any*. The same can't be said for most other races. So even if they aren't generally loved by everyone, a general sense of honor and good graces recognized by the other races can easily explain their bonus in addition to their natural predisposition.
#25 baron_the_curse May 23, 2004 13:27:25	Thank You, Christopher, that’s a hell of a good basis for that bonus to Diplomacy. It convinced me that Qualinesti would have the best bladesingers, since they’re pretty much diplomats for the elves. It seems most of the old Thalas-Enthia where wiped out during the Chaos War and the War of Souls leaving behind mostly young, open-minded Qualinesti, albeit bitter young elves. But if I recall it was the old Senate that was really determined to act “Silvanesti” like so with them gone the bonus is well justified.
#26 The_White_Sorcerer May 23, 2004 14:48:04	Originally posted by Kai Lord Sure it does. Being "more inclined than most elves to deal with other races" doesn't preclude them from being diplomatic to the point of surpassing humans. You just didn't like that they didn't spell it out for you in the flavor text. Well, yeah. I didn't know about their long history as diplomats, so I was confused. The flavor text said they were better than other elves, while the game mechanic placed them above other races as well, while they already had an effective bonus against other elves.
#27 zombiegleemax May 25, 2004 16:06:13	the reason is . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . because SP said so.
#28 brimstone May 25, 2004 16:25:20	Originally posted by CNEFD because SP said so. That's weak, dude. ;)
#29 zombiegleemax May 25, 2004 16:27:21	Originally posted by Brimstone That's weak, dude. ;) Yeah, I hafta agree there... there was actually logic behind the decision, believe it or not ;) Christopher
#30 zombiegleemax May 25, 2004 18:49:52	Originally posted by Stormprince Yeah, I hafta agree there... there was actually logic behind the decision, believe it or not ;) Christopher LOGIC???? *gasp* i dont belive it!;)