Let me start off by saying, I am a player of 10 years or so, starting with 2nd edition and mostly homebrew worlds, later, in the last few years, a little Faerun and more recently, say in the last two years, Greyhawk. I am currently playing 3rd edition, I like some of the system, it is more clearly defined and allows for greater freedom, yet on the flip side, miss some of what 2e had to offer.
I have DM'd Greyhawk, as shallow and generic as I made it, it was intended to be Greyhawk...
though, as of late, with recent inspiration I see things in a new light... I see, maybe in error, but I see the mess WOTC made with Greyhawk and the general statement that all core material equates to Greyhawk. This lead me to a generic version of Greyhawk, for truely the world was colorless and not defined.
Looking into some articles on Canonfire and Oerth Journals I came to understand that Greyhawk was something different... something more defined and original than an all inclusive mess of material... it was all this before WoTC generalized it and turned it into a bastard child.
I do not agree that the core rules reference Greyhawk, I believe that Greyhawk references the core rules, and like any other setting should tailor them to fit the world. To do otherwise is to play in the black and white, it is D&D with a Greyhawk lining.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
Now, with all that said, I am interested in cutting up the core rules and sewing them back together, Greyhawk will wear a nice patchwork suit made of core rules, not vise versa, as it is said to be.
For those of you who play 3.X Greyhawk, what, if any, changes did you make to bring Greyhawk closer to its roots?
I reference archetypes, races, general rules, house rules...
Just as examples...
Do you award racial modifiers for the human subraces?
Have you enforced any restricted classes for a given race? (For example, dwarves are supposed to be magically stunted, yet they can now be arcane casters?)
Have you changed any classes or implemented any new PRCs or classes?
Do you outlaw or use any additional spells?
Have you changed any races?
Have you instituted any creation or play rules to reflect how you feel your campaign needs to operate in respect to increasing or decreasing player power?
Anything you have, I am interested in hearing about and if you feel generous an explaination or reference to why...
IMO, what sets Greyhawk apart is how few adventures they are, compared to other campaign worlds. I treat adventures in Greyhawk like professional atheletes in America. They're aren't any from my home town, and maybe two from the general Region (Southern Oregon Coast). Except for Greyhawk City itself, you just don't seem them in everyday life.
I believe somewhere (maybe the 83 boxed set or Greyhawk adventures hardcover book) their was a ratio of adventures/
population. I believe it was around 1 1st level/100 people and then really got thin as you moved up. I believe it had around a 50% attrition rate so there was only 1 5th level/1500 people and 1 10th level/40,000.
Compare this to Athas (the only other campaign world I'm really familiar with) and I think you will agree, adventures are Uncommon in Greyhawk.
I've never been a slave of rules, why limit yourself?
1. Non human races must pay more experience to raise a level so while a human uses the regular experience point table races like dwarves would need double to rise a level and Elves would require triple experience points. I believe 3E has a similar rule so this is not much of a strecth.
2.I removed the Drow from the world of Oerth. Even though they originated on Oerth. I found the over abundance of Drow stories in FR to be so over done. So I changed the Drow and replaced them with the Derro, and in a certain part of the world you also have the Lerara.
3. Since Greyhawk is a medium magic world, I felt that making mages or all spellcasters suffer spell fatigue. Trust me your spellcasters won't be throwing around all those spells if their characters are suffering fatigue.
4. Also mages and all spell casters priests tend to be looked at less suspiciously than other spellcaster types. So in places like Veluna only a noble mage is acceptable in their society while in the Theocracy of the Pale mages are forbidden and priests whon use their gifts to often can also be prosecuted for crimes. Obviously those priests of higher ranking get alot more leeway than lower ranking priestly officals.
5. paladins and Rangers don't gain spells instead depending on the god they follow or in the case of rangers it could be philosopy can grant them other skills or powers that might pertain to that deity. Bards are limited in spell use and can't cast spells above 3rd level but gain a priests progression rate for their Thaco. Also bards may choose to cast spells from the priestly sphere's of plant & animal ! Bards cast from the wizardly school's of illusion/phantasm, enchantment/charm, divination, & a special category known as song.
These are some of the things I have put together, you can also check canonfire.com for some of my articles. Such as The Trolls of Oerth The Gnomes of Oerth, The Elves Of Oerth, The Dwarves of Oerth & all Three parts of my Postfest submissions The Valley of the Mage!
Also be sure to check on an Anodson map! But if your looking for a piece of nostalgia another good map is Abysslin's reproduction of the Darlene map from the 83 Greyhawk box set.
Happy Hawking !
Best example, Pholtus vs St-Cuthbert. Pholtus took the East (nearer the center of the ex-Oeridian empire) and St-Cuthbert the West. When they meet in the middle, cudgels do the talking.
2. When you have enough Suel blood to pass for a *true* Suel, expect a negative reaction nearly everywhere after the last war. With the paranoia about the Scarlet Brotherhood, it doesn't pay to look Suel.
3. An elf favorite class is Sorcerer, not Wizard. Supposedly, they have magic in their blood, so Sorcerer makes more sense IMHO.
4. No arcane-spellcasting dwarf! (except for the Derro of course)
5. No monk. Monk is for humans, period.
6. Bardic colleges (from 1E) still exist. If you want to rise as a Bard, you've got to attend them. Moreover, the only way to get Cure spells as a Bard is to befriend the Druidic Order.
7. No drow or other weird underground races all over the place. They belong in the Underdark, period.
8. Rary and Mordenkainen are the only living archwizards (lvl 20+).
9. Epic characters are NOT legion. Fact is, you'll be lucky to even hear about one.
10. The Spiked Chain (and other "oriental" weapons) is all but unknown.
11. Paladins have to worship a LN, LG, or NG god, period. No paladin of CG, LE, or N gods around.
12. Fiends are rare. The more you see them around, the less the players will freak out when they meet one.
13. No Samurai, Hexblade and other weird "options". This is GH, not WotC's dumping ground.
14. Politics rule the day. What country you belong to matters here. And you can be sure your ruler will call upon you sooner or later.
15. PrC aren't lollipops. You've got to sweat to get one and when you finally do, you can't "dump" it after one level just because you were after some nifty power. In other words, multiclassing in PrC means an xp penalty too.
16. There are high and mighty people around and they won't hesitate to manipulate you to get things done. That was the underlying principle of the Gord the Rogue novels and I've taken it to heart. That doesn't mean the players can't believe they are in control. Just that they don't suspect what's really going on behind the scene.
17. GH is grim and gritty. Here, gods won't save the day. Their minions won't save the day and Mordenkainen won't turn into a deus ex machina. If you want to save your skin, do it all by yourself.
13. No Samurai, Hexblade and other weird "options". This is GH, not WotC's dumping ground.
Well put, I think I may apply this as well.
6. Bardic colleges (from 1E) still exist. If you want to rise as a Bard, you've got to attend them. Moreover, the only way to get Cure spells as a Bard is to befriend the Druidic Order.
I have been thinking about the Druidic Bards detailed in the Oerth Journal issue 15, you can find it on the Canonfire.com page. I may still keep the bard as it is in the game, but I think I will also implement the Druidic Bard... though I question the role of a bard... while the Druidic Bard makes alot of sense to me, the Bard from 3.X makes less sense. The "Bard" seems to be a jack of trades, a fighter/rogue/sorcerer... yet he has magical songs... where does the magic come from, he is obviously weaving magic into song, but it doesn't make any sense to me.
On the other hand, the Druidic Bard was taught by the Druids of Old Faith to cast druid spells via song and instrument, a different school of spell casting which allowed the bards to more easily pick up the skills. The bard essentially in this case is somewhat like a fey creature... satyrs and such.
4. No arcane-spellcasting dwarf! (except for the Derro of course)
Damn straight!
10. The Spiked Chain (and other "oriental" weapons) is all but unknown.
I'm not sure I follow you, you do allow oriental weapons in game?
The "all but" phrase has always confused me for some reason.
15. PrC aren't lollipops. You've got to sweat to get one and when you finally do, you can't "dump" it after one level just because you were after some nifty power. In other words, multiclassing in PrC means an xp penalty too
I agree, I however do not apply an experience penalty to PrC, I do however use severe disgretion in regards to ALL multi-classing, before a player can advance to a new class he needs to sell me on WHY he feels the choice is viable to his characters personality. I also do not allow a character to simply start casting wizard spells or start fighting like a fighter... these things take special training.
I agree with just about everything you said otherwise as well, aside from the way you use the 3.X bard.
1. Non human races must pay more experience to raise a level so while a human uses the regular experience point table races like dwarves would need double to rise a level and Elves would require triple experience points. I believe 3E has a similar rule so this is not much of a strecth.
I have been thinking about using something like this, I however do not know of anything similar in 3.X as you stated.
I believe somewhere (maybe the 83 boxed set or Greyhawk adventures hardcover book) their was a ratio of adventures/population. I believe it was around 1 1st level/100 people and then really got thin as you moved up. I believe it had around a 50% attrition rate so there was only 1 5th level/1500 people and 1 10th level/40,000.
I like this mindset, I used to have a DM that would make everyone an antagonist and when we, the players decided to fight any npc, he would use that npc to humiliate our characters... all the NPCs were 10th level is seemed.
I restrict classes pretty heavily by race. I do allow all the elven and halfling subraces. I do not allow any race with level adjustment (drow, duergar, svirfneblin, etc.)
Humans and Half-elves can be any class including monks and paladins who are otherwise restricted from non-human play.
Barbarians are excluded from gnomes and halflings. The main barbarians of the other races being grugach elves, and the marsh dwarves from Ivid the Undying.
Gnomes retain Illusionist as favored class in addition to bard.
1st ed. Bard is a prestige class.
Dwarves can't be sorcerers but they can take wizard if they were first a priest of Dugmaren Brightmantle.
Because races are so restricted in my game I allow a variant of Gestalt Classes from Unearthed Arcana (3.5) in order to bring back some of the multi-classing of 1st edition. These are limited to either the races favored class and another class or cleric combined with another class. This is combined with a 20% xp penalty to balance with human and half-elf single classes.
I use the regional feats for Greyhawk from Dragon.
As far as flavor goes Alchemy is a rare skill that isn't available for starting characters. Alchemical items are extremely rare and mainly come from Baklunish lands who have a secretive alchemists guild. You can learn Alchemy and it is one of the ways you can create certain potions without spell casting ability. This is in combination with Profession (Herbalist) and is usable by spell casters to get around the XP cost. (Basically they must hunt down rare and expensive ingredients) This is how Keoghtom's Ointment is made in my campaign.
I use an alternate form of critical hits which are deadlier but I don't use the -10 death's door rule but the alternate rule from Unearthed Arcana (3.5). This creates a gritty and nasty combat style but keeps player death at an acceptable level.
I use most of the canon material thats out there including Sargent and the new LGJ stuff that is published in magazine form, but I pretty much completely ignore any LG specific stuff from the Triads.
Theres a few other nitpicking things I do but those are the basics. I would like to point out that I grew up on 1st edition AD&D and when 2nd edition came out it pretty much killed the game for me. In many ways I think 3.5 ed got back to the versatility of 1st edition which feels much more "Greyhawk" to me than what was created with 2nd edition and all those horrible kits. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but its undoubtedly why I am playing again after a 15 year hiatus.
Which issue (or issues) did the regional feats for Greyhawk appear? I don't play FR, but I do like the flavor of regional feats that FR has and would like to do something like that for my Greyhawk campaign.
The spiked chain is not an Oriental weapon.
The spiked chain is not any kind of weapon other than goofy.
A regular chain, without a bunch of spikes on it that would rip your hands to shreds as you tried manipulating it to adjust the range, is an Oriental weapon.
Just say no to the spiked chain!
As for the other Oriental weapons, most of them already have identical, or nearly identical, equivalents on the regular charts, so they aren't all that needed to begin with.
Then of course there is the fact that "monks" tended to use just about any regular weapon, as well as a number of somewhat peculiar ones, as well as the fact that the special monk weapons have very little connection to the class. Four are from the "traditional five weapons of Okinawan Karate" (quarterstaff/bo, sai, kama, and nunchaku, missing only the tonfa), one is a "ninja" weapon (the shuriken), and one a tool from Indochina (the siangham, although there are similar weapons, including an Okinawan one). How those all get attached to what are supposedly Chinese Buddhist monks I'll never really understand. It looks more like a pop culture kludge in an attempt to look distinctive. It comes across as just plain silly to me.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
:D
I restrict classes pretty heavily by race. I do allow all the elven and halfling subraces. I do not allow any race with level adjustment (drow, duergar, svirfneblin, etc.)
Hill Dwarf, Mountian Dwarf, High Elf, Wood Elf, Grey Elf, Valley Elf, Rock Gnome, Lightfoot Halfling, Stout Halfling, Tallfellow Halfling, Human (Oeridian, Suel, Baklunish, Rhennee, Olman, Flan, Mutt), Half-Elf, Half-Orc... that should cover the normal races, yes?
Do you also allow Wild Elves, Wild Dwarves, Forest Gnomes?
And as you stated, obviously you don't allow Drow, Duergar and Svirfneblin... understandable.
Do you use the 1e stat adjustments for Human subraces?
Humans and Half-elves can be any class including monks and paladins who are otherwise restricted from non-human play.
I can understand this reasoning for sure, though the two examples given here strike me somewhat strange.
The humans are somewhat of a golden boy to the human pantheon, obviously favored over demi-races... this explains why they would only allow human paladins, this does not however explain to me why Moradin a lawful good deity would not allow a dwarf, one of the most zealot-like races to persue paladinhood under him. I can understand with elves, as Corellon and the Seldarine do not really fit the role... though even halfling following Yondalla might find a home as a paladin and protector...
As far as monks go, what is it that makes you think only a human would be capable, I am curious, not belittling your ideas. As I know it, the Baklunish and later Suel were the first to follow the path of the monk, leading to the current Scarlet Brotherhood and a few minor factions who would seemingly guard the secrets of body and mind from others... but I don't see any reason why some races would not be able to handle it. I guess you could say elves and halflings lack the discipline, dwarves lack the inner peace, gnome minds are too jittery and half orcs are too chaotic in nature and lack the resolve.
Barbarians are excluded from gnomes and halflings. The main barbarians of the other races being grugach elves, and the marsh dwarves from Ivid the Undying.
I like that gnomes and halflings are prohibited, I don't understand why you don't also prohibit all elves, they're minds are too calm and complex to allow them such a fury, imo.
Gnomes retain Illusionist as favored class in addition to bard.
1st ed. Bard is a prestige class.
I take it then that you use the 3e bard in addition to the Druidic Bard? How do you explain the 3e bard in your campaign?
Dwarves can't be sorcerers but they can take wizard if they were first a priest of Dugmaren Brightmantle.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, it is certianly an alternative...
Is it your explanation that Dugmaren grants that dwarf the ability to wield magic? Dwarves are supposed to be incapable.
And good info, thank you.
Originally posted by Spooky_Jester I'm not sure I follow you, you do allow oriental weapons in game?
The "all but" phrase has always confused me for some reason.
Sorry, allow me to elaborate. I am still using the Spelljammer and Planescape settings in my world. However, you don't run into a space/planar traveler any day. There is still a chance you might and, given how vast the multiverse is, it means you could one day meet a guy with really weird clothes, customs and weapons.
Thus, my players - IF they confine themselves to GH "natives" - won't run into anyone using "oriental" weapons (especially the stupid Spiked Chain). But there is a very small chance they could meet someone using one (unless they start plane-hoping and end up in Sigil of course...)
Do you use the 1e stat adjustments for Human subraces?
No. I believe the Greyhawk regional feats add a lot more flavor for the human subraces. Actual ability score changes are hard to explain given genetic interbreeding etc.
...Moradin a lawful good deity would not allow a dwarf, one of the most zealot-like races to persue paladinhood under him.
If a player pinned me on this and said he HAD to run a dwarven paladin I might cave. It makes even more sense for a follower of Clangeddin Silverbeard. My inclination though is to say no because of a couple of reasons. The inclination of valor and honor and chivalry are primarily a human attribute. And the idea of a paladin's mount being a pony, war dog, dire goat? just seems very WRONG. Certainly dwarven cleric/fighters and later dwarven defenders would be common but paladin has always been a human class. Also your example of a halfling paladin would be the same except for the halfling deity Avoreen. So although I don't allow them, I persuasive player could sway me if they have a great back story.
The same goes for monks but I would be even less inclined to allow a non-human monk than paladin. And my reasoning would be specific to my version of Greyhawk in that monks are simply very rare. Only a few monasteries exist in Baklunish lands and one in Urnst. Even rarer would be an Oriental from lands outside the Flaeness. This being the case the back story would be even more ridiculous for such a character...orphan raised at monastery by monks, completely against their racial predisposition they learned to be Lawful, stoic, and monastic in order to learn their unarmed combat style and now they have been tasked to roam Oerth adventuring...
like that gnomes and halflings are prohibited, I don't understand why you don't also prohibit all elves, they're minds are too calm and complex to allow them such a fury, imo.
The grugach or wild elves are definately a different class of elf. They are very very close to their fae side and don't get along well with other elves even wood elves. I believe their favored class is sorcerer. So if you have to play a barbarian elf they fit quite nicely since they tend toward Chaotic Neutral.
take it then that you use the 3e bard in addition to the Druidic Bard? How do you explain the 3e bard in your campaign?
Correct. The Old Lore Bard is an antiquity in my Greyhawk. They are nobles or former nobles that very rarely get any new blood. The regular class bards are a mundane offshoot that came about as regular minstrels learned a few tricks here and there from their more elite brethren. And now they outnumber them by quite a lot.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, it is certianly an alternative...
Is it your explanation that Dugmaren grants that dwarf the ability to wield magic? Dwarves are supposed to be incapable.
Thats it exactly. Dugmaren was the first to learn the secrets of magic and only one clan in all of the Flaeness worship him. They have actually been detailed in a sourcebook and the name and place escapes me. I am inclined to disallow all dwarven arcane spell users altogether but a player pointed this out to me and we came to an accord with the character also being a priest.
I will add in the clan information when I think of it or look it up later.
Correct. The Old Lore Bard is an antiquity in my Greyhawk. They are nobles or former nobles that very rarely get any new blood. The regular class bards are a mundane offshoot that came about as regular minstrels learned a few tricks here and there from their more elite brethren. And now they outnumber them by quite a lot.
I hadn't thought of implementing it in this way, it fits perfectly.
I think I may implement it with only a slight variant, being that the Old Faith still exists in a closed society, thus allowing for Old Faith Druids and Druidic Bards. However, as in your example, the modern bard is more of an offshoot of the Old Faith, the result of an evolving and adapted way of life. This would cause for a slight modification to the 3.5 bard, forcing him, much like the Old Faith bards, to replace verbal components with song and somatic components with instruments... which in turn, makes ALOT more sense to me. The 3.5e Players Handbook indicates that the bard uses more simple somatic components than the sorcerer and can thus cast spells while wearing light armor, it does not however detail exactly what type of components they DO use, I believe this is left open for interpretation.
Also, though for game purpose I will call bard spells arcane, as they are, in game, I feel my bards will weave "magic" into spell without making the distiniction of being arcane or divine. This ties them closer to thier Druidic Bard roots in my opinion, as I believe the druidic bard truely learns to harness the power of nature through song, not so much just casting a spell in a different way, but rather finding an alternative means to calling on the energy.
So in comparison, you have the Old Faith bards who channeled the forces of Oerth compared to the New Age Bards who have changed and learned to weave magic through song.
The key difference between Old Faith and New Faith bards, aside from spells would be instrument powers vs. song powers... instrument powers being a highly protected and nearly lost art, and bard song being the result of new study in the fields of magic, though contrary to the beliefs of Druidic Bards.
A thought...
And now that research doesn't earn them xp it's harder to justify the logic of so many elderly powerful wizards. I mean there are hardly any powerful clerics, fighters or rogues, so why so many powerful wizards?
As for rule adjustments to retain the flavour of 1e, we have to remember that 90% of the rules were inspired directly by Tolkien. This was why races had limited access to classes and why Rangers could use crystal balls; it was simply that they had or hadn't exhibited those abilities in the novels, plus a few tidbits from folklore etc.
Outside of Tolkien's setting, it does become harder to justify the limitations. After all, there's nothing in a halfling's genetic make-up that prevents him from being a monk. It is simply a case that culturally, halflings do not have those institutions in their sleepy farming villages. It doesn't mean that a halfling disposed to such a career could go off and become one - it's just very very unlikely.
Dwarves are a tougher sell, since we were told previously that their lack of magical ability was due to their resistance to magic, i.e. it was unnatural to a dwarf. For that reason, I'm reluctant to embrace dwarven wizards and confident that dwarven sorcerers shouldn't exist.
Gnomes retain Illusionist as favored class in addition to bard.
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I agree. It's the only way to retain the flavour of the old gnomes.
1st ed. Bard is a prestige class.
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I haven't seen the write up. My version just required a minimum attack bonus (to encourage fighters) minimum (rogue) skills (to encourage rogue levels), and then I just allowed the bards access to plant, animal, and elemental spells as sorcerer spells. I'd be interested to see the write up though.
Dwarves can't be sorcerers but they can take wizard if they were first a priest of Dugmaren Brightmantle.
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I think I'll allow dwarves to be an 3.5 equivalent of atificers rather than normal wizards. I mean somebody has to be able to make their great dwarven weapons other than their clerics. Making it a prestige class for priests of Dugmaren Brightmantle seems like a good idea.
I use the regional feats for Greyhawk from Dragon.
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Same here, but I only allow Companion Guard bonuses to work if the weapons are made of darkwood and/or mithral, so they are lighter.
You can learn Alchemy and it is one of the ways you can create certain potions without spell casting ability. This is in combination with Profession (Herbalist) and is usable by spell casters to get around the XP cost. (Basically they must hunt down rare and expensive ingredients) This is how Keoghtom's Ointment is made in my campaign.
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I agree. I don't like the notion that you must be a spell-caster to make magical potions. I think magic item creation has become too sanitised in 3.5. Keep crushing pixie wings with your pestle - that's what I say!
I use an alternate form of critical hits
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I use the old Combat & Tactics tables for critical criticals but I'm looking to increase the likelihood of nasty injuries. I may just add a Fortitude Save to normal criticals avoid any extra effects from the tables. We played City of Skulls in 2e using those tables and my players limped (literally) desperately away from Dorakaa. It was kewl!
Overall:
I agree that halfling barbarians and dwarf wizards etc should not be the norm but I'm reluctant to ban them entirely. I suppose traditionalists just cannot view halflings as anything other than inhabitants of the Shire but in a different game world their class access will depend on their local culture.
Lets not forget, the wizards in Middle Earth were not actually human either. So we shouldn't be too bogged down as the rules and game worlds evolve. The pain is when official supplements include npcs with 'banned classes'. My own gazeteer is struggling to maintain continuity. Gran March seems to have two dwarven wizards working for Syrloch and Knurl has a whole batallion of evokers. What's a DM to do?
I agree. I don't like the notion that you must be a spell-caster to make magical potions. I think magic item creation has become too sanitised in 3.5. Keep crushing pixie wings with your pestle - that's what I say!
Does anyone have a resource for this type of thing? I think I will implement this in my campaign, pending a review of material.
I use the regional feats for Greyhawk from Dragon.
This also, does anyone have this resource?
Gran March seems to have two dwarven wizards working for Syrloch and Knurl has a whole batallion of evokers.
And this is from an official supplement, you say? What edition?
Thanks
Gran March seems to have two dwarven wizards working for Syrloch and Knurl has a whole batallion of evokers.
I am assuming that this is from Living Greyhawk sources. The only thing I use is officially published LG journal and LG approved stuff. I tend to stay away from Triad published material.
As far as Create Potion being taken by non-spellcasters I don't use hard and fast rules. There is information from the old DM's guide that gives examples of herbs and minerals that might be related to certain spells and I use this as a basis for special ingredients that are needed to replicate a spell instead of requiring a spell to be known by the potion creator. In order to balance this I try to make the Proffession (Herbalist) check balance with what might be required with the Craft skill in order to make the magical potion. In other words I figure out what the cost of the potion would be and then require Craft (Alchemy) and/or Proffession (Herbalist) checks in order to craft a potion. This requires several days, usually more than what a spell caster would require, but there is no XP cost and the gold piece cost is usually offset by finding ingredients instead of buying them. In the Unearthed Arcana (3.5) book there is a section on using special spell components to cast metamagicked spells. This list is a great example of special ingredients for certain spells to be made into potions and magic items.
Hope that helps.