But that race has never had a big place in Mystara. Krynn is the only setting that has treated Minos properly IMO. I never cared much for the idea of Minos being fallen Enduks either. IMC Enduks are a lost race of Archons who have interbred with Minotaurs.
So where would Minotaurs fit into a Mystara campaign? Would it be neccesary to create a new subrace of smarter minotaurs to make them playable?
Havard
Check the almanacs
Originally posted by havard
So where would Minotaurs fit into a Mystara campaign? Would it be neccesary to create a new subrace of smarter minotaurs to make them playable?
I have never seen minotaurs as much other than Ogres with horns :D
IMO they are admirably suited to inhabit evil wizard's dungeon mazes because of their natural abilities in such environments. Thus, I see them more as some evil monster created for guardian purposes than as an independent civilisation.
If you want to put them somewhere in large numbers I vote for somewhere near the Milenian Empire in Hollow World. That would fit in nicely with the Greek atmosphere of that setting.
:-) Jesper
I can't recall the Immortal's name offhand, but he certainly suggests either a) being a minotaur, or b) being a minotaur slayer. In either case, I'd imagine the cult is a remnant of a Nithian/Traladaran era minotaur presence in the Northlands. I'd suggest the Minotaurs were somehow tied to the Traladarans (the "bronze-age" Traladarans being more greek than the modern slavic Traladarans). Perhaps they are related to the beastmen or hutaakans somehow (being other Nithian creations, or something? Maybe tie them in with the Oltec people- seeing how the bull is an important element of plains native american cultures- maybe the minotaur developed somewhere in the Sindhi/Atruaghin/Darokin region?)
Also, the module M2: Maze of the Riddling Minotaur has minotaurs as a major element of the culture of the Island of Vacros and Cathos. Where exactly those lands are isn't determined at all. I have a map that I'm not entirely happy with which has Cathos and Vacros as the westernmost isles of the Thanegioth Archipelago, and another map that places those islands off the north coast of Davania between Garganin and the Serpent Peninsula- either location might do well (and both tie in with a Traladaran/Milenian connection). Davania itself is another location (you could tie in the curse that created the Varellyan nagpas with creating minotaurs of some other nearby human communities).
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
I can't recall the Immortal's name offhand, but he certainly suggests either a) being a minotaur, or b) being a minotaur slayer. In either case, I'd imagine the cult is a remnant of a Nithian/Traladaran era minotaur presence in the Northlands. I'd suggest the Minotaurs were somehow tied to the Traladarans (the "bronze-age" Traladarans being more greek than the modern slavic Traladarans). Perhaps they are related to the beastmen or hutaakans somehow (being other Nithian creations, or something? Maybe tie them in with the Oltec people- seeing how the bull is an important element of plains native american cultures- maybe the minotaur developed somewhere in the Sindhi/Atruaghin/Darokin region?)
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here's something that I found on Gylagrid from the Vaults the immortal in question. I then saw that I wrote the file, I don't remember thinking all that - damn Alzheimer's.
Gylgarid: Initiate(5)/Temporal?, Sphere of Matter/Entropy?. Gylgarid is an immortal who has strong ties to minotaurs, though is also worshiped by many northern tribesmen (X13, 3) which assumedly means Heldanners or Vestlanders. This then implies that Gylgarid was either a minotaur, an immortal who created minotaurs or a mortal who killed lots of minotaurs. A minotaurs head is the symbol of Gylgarid (X13, 18) though this need not mean he is a minotaur he could be like Ruaidhri Hawkbane and have taken the likeness of the animal he killed as his symbol. Though it also stated that the minotaur is the likeness of Gylgarid (X13, 27), though it seems odd how "many" northern tribesmen would worship a minotaur. The final piece of evidence is that Gylgarid is described as a chaotic barbarian god of uncertain origin (X13, 17) whose followers even seems to be feared by local people (X13, 17).
I would contend that Gylgarid is a mortal who killed a lot of minotaurs for a very personal reason (much like Ruaidhri Hawkbane) and the whole thing sent him a bit mad, nevertheless he was pretty proud of himself. He somehow attained immortality in the Sphere of Entropy (the rules for attaining immortality in this sphere have always seemed a little sketchy) and the whole experience of attaining immortality sent him over the edge. He took the minotaur as his symbol and seems to prefer his temples adorned with the figure and even acting as guardians. I think that Gylgarid was someone from this region of Mystara which accounts for it being his base of operation, though I think that he is not in fact worshipped by "many" northern tribesmen but perhaps only by a few similarly mad individuals, which is why his worship is not prominent in the northern regions, though he may become so. If this were all so then Gylgarid would probably not be a powerful immortal which is why I place him at Initiate(5) level, though X13 seems to imply the Gylgarid has some power so perhaps some Entropic immortal is working behind the scenes pulling his strings - though this is only conjecture.
Though all the above may not be so and the next most likely scenario is the Gylgarid is a minotaur who achieved immortality in the Sphere of Matter, and would probably therefore be a Temporal. Though he has some unsavoury followers.
Here are some more thoughts:
* Minotaurs are descended from Beastmen through Nithian manipulations. This means that the Nithians were in fact responsible for creating quite a few races:
- Hutaakans (from Kobolds, although that was Pflarrs doing)
- The Gnolls (from Trolls)
-Thouls (from various creatures)
- Bugbears (from goblins IMC)
- Minotaurs (from Ogres, based on Jesper's assumption)
* Minotaurs were part of the Beastman invasions of Traladara. The Beastman invasions were not just made up of Gnolls, as some sources state, but although dominated by Gnolls, also included Bugbears and Minotaurs, two other races also created by Nithians.
* As the various creations of the Nithians escaped and things got out of hand, not all went to Traladara. Some Minotaurs went north, explaining the X13 story, others spread to different parts of the world. Northern Minotaurs, found in Heldann and Norwold have a light almost white fur and blue eyes.
* Gylgarid was probably one of the first Minotaurs, and the only known case of a minotaur achieving immortality. Or, he was an Antalian who lived among the minotaurs, learning their way of life, and eventually brought some of their culture to nearby humans, thus explaining the berserker-like sect of Gylgarid from X13.
* The Cult of Gylgarid still exists today, much surpressed in Heldann, but more freely expressed in Norwold. It preaches a violent warrior culture, but also has a sense of honor (Lawful Evil, probably).
* During the Minotaur exodus, some followed King Milen and ended up on the Islands of Vacros and Cathos (mentioned in MSOLO1). Others ventured further onto Davania (explaining the culture referred to in the Almanacs). A third group ended up on the Savage Coast, and have established a small Minotaur Kingdom there not far from the Enduk lands. There is a widespread belief among both races that the two are related, but that the minotaurs were punnished by the immortals and thus lost their wings. However, this is not true as Enduks are descended from Archons. Yet another group ventured east and spread across Alphatia, some can even be found on Skothar.
*Minotaurs are quite different from other Humanoid races and do not get along well with them. Although most are warriors, they do not rely solely on raiding for survival and have a sense of honor and pride. They tend to look down upon Humanoids. The Bargha are a race of cursed minotaurs who live among humanoids in such areas as the Crater. Minotaurs hate Barghas and this might be another reason why Minotaurs do not live alongside Humanoids.
* Minotaurs are found all over the Known World, many are used as Gladiators in the arenas of Thyatis and the Spell Pits of Glantri.
* Note that when discussing the origin of races on Mystara, it is not uncommon that a single race has been created several times. This is usually due to immortal intervention or manipulation. The immortals often have favorite races and if the race should die, there is nothing to stop the immortals from trying again in another time and place.
Comments, ideas?
Havard
I especially like the idea of the Traladarans fighting the "escaped" monsters of ancient Nithia. Old king Minos on Crete probably got the minotaur for his maze from Egypt *S*
Originally posted by havard
- Minotaurs (from Ogres, based on Jesper's assumption)
I was just kidding that the monsters are bot big and nasty but one's got horns. I didn't mean to imply any racial link...
:-) Jesper
Originally posted by Spellweaver
I was just kidding that the monsters are bot big and nasty but one's got horns. I didn't mean to imply any racial link...
I thought that might be the case, but I decided to use it anyway ;)
Actually, in the Dragonlance Setting IIRC, Minotaurs are decended from Ogres or Irdha (High Ogres), so that was another reason why I used that idea.
Another Nithia connection for the Minotaurs is the character Augar from the HWA-modules, who was a Nithian in the Hollow World who *wished* to be strong, but instead was changed into a Minotaur. Thus he became strong, but also ugly and stupid. He became a major npc IMC after he broke his allegiance with the villains of that module and helped the PCs. They even brought him back to the outer world. I loved the idea of a Minotaur with hieroglyphs carved onto his horns...
Havard
Just thinking out loud...
I have departed from that theory myself, but that doesn't mean the Enduks still believe it.
Havard
Originally posted by havard
Well, I'll have to read up on Gildesh, but I think the Gildesh/Gylgarid connection sounds good. Having Gildesh be a minotaur slayer makes sense since the article introducing Gildesh presented Minotaurs as Cursed Enduks.
I have departed from that theory myself, but that doesn't mean the Enduks still believe it.
Havard
I'm leaning towards a different theory myself. At the moment, I'm figuring that the minotaurs, enduks, goatmen, and bargda are all related species, having descended from common ancestors. The enduks and minotaurs are the most closely related, but they all share common roots.
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
I'm leaning towards a different theory myself. At the moment, I'm figuring that the minotaurs, enduks, goatmen, and bargda are all related species, having descended from common ancestors. The enduks and minotaurs are the most closely related, but they all share common roots.
Interesting. I have been playing with similar theories myself. My idea was that there are two branches of the Beastman race. One, known as the Low Beastmen or Feral Beastmen eventually developed into the Humanoids, such as Orcs and Goblins. The second branch is known as High Beastmen and are some of the the races you mention, and also the Rakasta, Lupins, Tortles, Hutaakans etc. These developed at different stages, most being descened from Humanoids, but purged of the feral blood. I dont know..this is still pretty rough yet.
As for the Enduks, like I mentioned in a previous post, I have them as an entirely separate race, related to Archons. Female Archons in OD&D were mentioned to have Bull-like heads.
Havard