IMHO, it keeps the races distinct and reminds the characters of the inherent differences and uniqueness of each.
P.S. I allow the bonus spells that wizards gain from intelligence to be "free slots" used to cast any spell of that level that they have in their spellbook.
:D
It's a much more logical choice for the race description than wizard.
When I upgraded to 3E, I decided that most "Magic Users" were Wizards (named NPCs from the Gaz series, for example) while a smaller number were in fact Sorcerors. No refit was necessary in my opinion.
If I had to make a race pre-disposed to sorcery, I would pick Pure-blooded Alphatians, and/or white-furred Lupins.
That being said, I have different favored classes for different "ethnicities" of elf (and other races). For instance, the Grunalf clan has ranger for its favored class, while the studious Mealidil clan has wizard IMC.
As for the other, I agree with katana_one that "Pure" Alphatians tend to be sorcerers rather than wizards, as do the Flaems. Thus, in my Glantri, the arcanists of Bergdhoven and Blackhill are largely of the sorcery bent, while the other nobles tend to be wizards. Aalban is kind of a curiosity- the ruling Aalbanese, IMC, tend to be the strongest mix of Hattian and Alphatian bloodlines- pure warrior/sorcerers. On the other hand, then, you have the "unmixed" population of Aalban- Hattian warriors and Cypri Alphatian wizards- makes for an uneasy blend of the population.
I go back and forth on this, but generally I tend to think the Great School of Magic accepts only wizards- they teach magic, whereas sorcerers just have a natural intuition for it. (Though I could make a case for sorcerers being taught magic as well, if only just to take "coursework" in Spellcraft and the like). The result would be largely, that sorcerers only become nobles in Glantri if they inherit a dominion from another noble (by being related or whatever)- they generally don't fit the requirements of having graduated from the GSoM, so the only other way they could be a noble is by performing a great deed(s) for the Principalities. Wizards, on the other hand, have it a little easier, by virtue of being able to graduate.
Thus you have some dominions with heritages that stretch back to the earliest days of the Principalities, having been handed down from one generation of sorcerer to another (such happens often with the Flaemish dominions), and with the "natural" sorcerers disdaining the "nouveau riche"- the wizards who have to (Immortals forbid) "learn" how to use magic. (It's no coincidence that the Flaemish despise technological advances- both "learning" wizardry and "creating" technology are unnatural to them).
On the other hand, you have dominions that are gained by wizards who are graduates of the GSoM, and are sort of the Mystaran equivalent of the "bourgeoisie"- those who joined the ranks of nobility by effort, rather than by inheritance.
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
Thus you have some dominions with heritages that stretch back to the earliest days of the Principalities, having been handed down from one generation of sorcerer to another (such happens often with the Flaemish dominions), and with the "natural" sorcerers disdaining the "nouveau riche"- the wizards who have to (Immortals forbid) "learn" how to use magic. (It's no coincidence that the Flaemish despise technological advances- both "learning" wizardry and "creating" technology are unnatural to them).
On the other hand, you have dominions that are gained by wizards who are graduates of the GSoM, and are sort of the Mystaran equivalent of the "bourgeoisie"- those who joined the ranks of nobility by effort, rather than by inheritance.
Interesting discussion!
Check out Havards post at the Vault of sorcerors in the Known World:
http://www.dnd.starflung.com/knwnsorc.html
I really like the idea that Flaems and Alphatians in Glantri are ancient bloodlines of sorcerors. If Lady Juliana Vlaardoen needed teaching at the GSoM it would indeed add to the speculation that she is adopted by Prince Vlaardoen and his wife Wilhelmine?
I allow my players to play any PHB race except half-orc and any class except monk. The result is that one player created Eveil - a female human Makai Sorceress/Druid from Ierendi. Eveil is a really cool character. She wields both her arcane and divine magic as some kind of natural force that she can tap into. She does not belong to any druidic circle or cove - yet - but travels the lands and gets involved in all kinds of mysterious adventures - much like a Hawaiian playmate kind-of-version of good ol' Merlin :D
:-) Jesper
I agree with Cthulhudrew on the issues of Sorceres in Glantri, Alphatia and among the elves. In Alphatia, Sorcerers are slightly more respected than wizards due to their association with Pure Alphatians. In Glantri, Sorcerers are slighly less valued as they are seen as dabblers, rather than wizards who have true understanding of The Art.
In some other areas, it is believed that Sorcerers have demonic blood and are feared and sometimes burned on the stake. This is true in Heldann, Ylaruam and in rural areas of Darokin.
The Wise Women of the Northern Reaches are Sorcerers as are the Hakomons of Ethengar. In Karameikos, Sorcery is not uncommon among the countryside Traldar and among the Darine Gypsies.
Havard
Originally posted by Spellweaver
Interesting discussion!
Check out Havards post at the Vault of sorcerors in the Known World:
http://www.dnd.starflung.com/knwnsorc.html
Thanks for posting that Jesper, I didn't even know that one made it to the Vaults. It needs some revision though. I have changed my mind concerning Glantri and Darokin from that article, and the ideas from my previous post should be incorporated.
Havard
Originally posted by havard
Thanks for posting that Jesper, I didn't even know that one made it to the Vaults. It needs some revision though. I have changed my mind concerning Glantri and Darokin from that article, and the ideas from my previous post should be incorporated.
Havard
It's still a great article, even before the changes :D
Keep more of those comming!
:-) Jesper
Recently I've re-introduced Sorcerers but restricted them to Fey races (Sidhe and Sprites mainly) and used the prestige Bard from Unerathed Arcana. Using the bloodlines rules from UA also allows humans with a Fey bloodline to become sorcerers.
I choose this so that the players could still use those classes but I didnt need to explain why there were no known sorcerers in Glantri etc. Also Sorcerer seemed to fit the description of fey races given in PC1 well.
Druids should also be available for the Fey though.
I never saw the reason for having Bard as a prestige class. I think that fits pretty well in any culture/setting. There was a dragon mag article (connected with Robrenn) where the Bard was introduced as an OD&D class on the Savage Coast.
Havard
In some other areas, it is believed that Sorcerers have demonic blood and are feared and sometimes burned on the stake. This is true in Heldann, Ylaruam and in rural areas of Darokin.
Just curious, but how do the commoners tell the difference between sorcery and wizardry? Even most PCs don't actually have the skills to tell the difference.
Just curious, but how do the commoners tell the difference between sorcery and wizardry? Even most PCs don't actually have the skills to tell the difference.
Well, obviously, it's the jealous "real" wizards in the community that are rousing the rabble to take out their rivals.
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
As for the other, I agree with katana_one that "Pure" Alphatians tend to be sorcerers rather than wizards, as do the Flaems.
I go back and forth on this, but generally I tend to think the Great School of Magic accepts only wizards- they teach magic, whereas sorcerers just have a natural intuition for it. (Though I could make a case for sorcerers being taught magic as well, if only just to take "coursework" in Spellcraft and the like). The result would be largely, that sorcerers only become nobles in Glantri if they inherit a dominion from another noble (by being related or whatever)- they generally don't fit the requirements of having graduated from the GSoM, so the only other way they could be a noble is by performing a great deed(s) for the Principalities. Wizards, on the other hand, have it a little easier, by virtue of being able to graduate.
Thus you have some dominions with heritages that stretch back to the earliest days of the Principalities, having been handed down from one generation of sorcerer to another (such happens often with the Flaemish dominions), and with the "natural" sorcerers disdaining the "nouveau riche"- the wizards who have to (Immortals forbid) "learn" how to use magic. (It's no coincidence that the Flaemish despise technological advances- both "learning" wizardry and "creating" technology are unnatural to them).
On the other hand, you have dominions that are gained by wizards who are graduates of the GSoM, and are sort of the Mystaran equivalent of the "bourgeoisie"- those who joined the ranks of nobility by effort, rather than by inheritance.
I am going over which of the noble houses of Glantri, according to the write-up above, which I really like, should be sorcerors and which should be wizards.
Linden: Old Flaems - they're sorcerors
Ritterburg: Mix of Hattians and Alphatians - fighter/sorcerors?
Silverston: Old Alphatians - they're sorcerors
Singhabad: Well, Ethengar has many sorcerors, so are these descendants sorcerors or wizards? Of course, seing as they were kicked out of Ethengar it was probably because they used wizardry instead of the native sorcery? There could actually have been a power struggle between the Hakamon (or whatever their shamans are called) and the Virayanas?
Igorov: As with Singhabad above, the Igorovs are descendants from Traladarans, whose fortunetellers and other village hedge-wizards are often sorcerors. So what is the Igorov bloodline?
Sylaire and Crownguard: These noble houses came from another world. Should they be wizards or sorcerors?
Sirecchia: Old Thyatians - they're wizards
Alhambra: Well, they're elves but very different from Alfheim elves. IMC I think I'll make them wizards.
Ellerovyn: Elves - they're sorcerors
So, according to this, more than half of the Houses could in fact be sorcerors? In a land ruled by wizards?
Any opinions?
:-) Jesper
Originally posted by Spellweaver
Linden: Old Flaems - they're sorcerors
Agree here.
Ritterburg: Mix of Hattians and Alphatians - fighter/sorcerors?
I can't quite decide on this myself. On the one hand, I like the idea of mixing bloodlines to get powerful fighter/sorcerers, on the other hand it might distinguish them from the "other" Alphatians in Glantri by having them be fighter/wizards. I don't really know.
Silverston: Old Alphatians - they're sorcerors
Agree here.
Singhabad: Well, Ethengar has many sorcerors, so are these descendants sorcerors or wizards? Of course, seing as they were kicked out of Ethengar it was probably because they used wizardry instead of the native sorcery? There could actually have been a power struggle between the Hakamon (or whatever their shamans are called) and the Virayanas?
Hmm. Some good ideas here. Again, like with the Aalbanese, I am on the fence. The hakomon connection is almost a no-brainer, but then there's the whole- "wizard nation" idea (which you mention in closing we are getting away from). I kind of like the idea of wizards that you mention.
One thought that comes to mind is that hakomons are fairly rare in Ethengar- one would imagine the Krondahar have more magical practitioners per capita than the Ethengarians. So perhaps their ancestors (the Krondahar tribe? I don't know if it was ever given, but that seems as likely as any to me)- perhaps their ancestors decided to make themselves more powerful by studying magic, which- as you point out- may have led to a break with the rest of the Ethengars, as it threatened the "traditional" tribal system.
As I work through this, I like this idea of yours better and better. Let's make them wizards (though, given their ancestry, I'd imagine the occasional hakomon/sorcerer still happens to appear on occasion.)
Igorov: As with Singhabad above, the Igorovs are descendants from Traladarans, whose fortunetellers and other village hedge-wizards are often sorcerors. So what is the Igorov bloodline?
I'd say- using a similar rationale to above- that they are mostly wizards, though sorcerers are not uncommon. The sorcerers are probably, as you note, still mostly the hedge-wizards, fortunetellers, and wise-women of the communities, while the leaders are those who have devoted themselves to the arts (in this case, largely the dark arts- all those necromancers!) in a more scholastic and all-encompassing manner. This, to me, kind of fits with the whole "dark pact with Alphaks and entropic powers" sort of theme behind the Boldavian nobility. They are being taught their magic, rather than being gifted with it. I'd say they're wizards.
Sylaire and Crownguard: These noble houses came from another world. Should they be wizards or sorcerors?
I'd say sorcerers. X2 mentions that the d'Ambrevilles studied the dark arts and made pacts with dark powers (cthulhianic, though not explictly stated in the text, implied from the Averoigne stories). They have since become a bit more benign- in Gaz3 and onwards- but I would tend to stick with that interpretation, as studiers of the arts, rather than naturally gifted. Also, it fits with the idea of Etienne as headmaster (and chief founder) of the Great School of Magic, and IMO- fits in a bit better with the idea of them coming from a more "real world" earth type culture. I'd also have the Klantyre rulers work similarly. So two more wizards.
Sirecchia: Old Thyatians - they're wizards
Agree here. Now that I think of it, maybe the Aalbanese should be fighter/sorcerers- to contrast with the militant (and quite possibly largely) fighter/wizards of Caurenze.
Alhambra: Well, they're elves but very different from Alfheim elves. IMC I think I'll make them wizards.
That's a good way to differentiate them. I like this. They are definitely described in different terms. Perhaps their "lack" of natural magic is one of the reasons behind the differences. I definitely like this.
Ellerovyn: Elves - they're sorcerors
Agreed.
So, according to this, more than half of the Houses could in fact be sorcerors? In a land ruled by wizards?
Well, if we go with what I've worked out above, now it's 6 wizards vs. 4 sorcerers. Does that help?
Also, one way to view things might be that perhaps the Light of Rad decision (when nobility was reserved for arcanists) was initially set into motion by the Alphatian and Flaemish settlers, who wanted to establish a system of rule similar to their homeland where the magically gifted sorcerous bloodlines were the predominant rulers. Over time, however, the study of wizardry became more commonplace (well, "common" in relative terms) and was aided by non-sorcerers (such as Etienne) such that the wizards came to have more numbers and power/influence than the sorcerers, so Glantri is predominantly a wizard ruled country, even if a lot of the hereditary nobles are still mostly sorcerers.
Now, let's see
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
I can't quite decide on this myself. On the one hand, I like the idea of mixing bloodlines to get powerful fighter/sorcerers, on the other hand it might distinguish them from the "other" Alphatians in Glantri by having them be fighter/wizards. I don't really know.
The more I think about it, it makes sense that mixing the Alphatian and Hattian bloodlines effectively ruined the natural (Alphatian sorcerous) affinity the first Ritterburgs had for magic. They quickly became wizards?
Hmm. Some good ideas here.Thank youOne thought that comes to mind is that hakomons are fairly rare in Ethengar- one would imagine the Krondahar have more magical practitioners per capita than the Ethengarians. So perhaps their ancestors (the Krondahar tribe? I don't know if it was ever given, but that seems as likely as any to me)- perhaps their ancestors decided to make themselves more powerful by studying magic, which- as you point out- may have led to a break with the rest of the Ethengars, as it threatened the "traditional" tribal system.
As I work through this, I like this idea of yours better and better. Let's make them wizards (though, given their ancestry, I'd imagine the occasional hakomon/sorcerer still happens to appear on occasion.)
I like that idea too....while the leaders are those who have devoted themselves to the arts (in this case, largely the dark arts- all those necromancers!) in a more scholastic and all-encompassing manner. This, to me, kind of fits with the whole "dark pact with Alphaks and entropic powers" sort of theme behind the Boldavian nobility. They are being taught their magic, rather than being gifted with it. I'd say they're wizards.Agreed. The Igorovs are scholarly in their approach to magic.
X2 mentions that the d'Ambrevilles studied the dark arts and made pacts with dark powers (cthulhianic, though not explictly stated in the text, implied from the Averoigne stories). They have since become a bit more benign- in Gaz3 and onwards- but I would tend to stick with that interpretation, as studiers of the arts, rather than naturally gifted. Also, it fits with the idea of Etienne as headmaster (and chief founder) of the Great School of Magic, and IMO- fits in a bit better with the idea of them coming from a more "real world" earth type culture. I'd also have the Klantyre rulers work similarly.
I agree, particularly with the Etienne / GSoM argument.
Maybe we could develop a Sylarian / Crownguardian flair in that maybe these otherworldly magicians are particularly fond of using certain types of metamagic? Maybe the concept of metamagic feats came from that other world? ( I don't really know how metamagic feats go with sorcerous spellcasting, but denying it to (most) Alphatians would certainly give the Glantrians an edge!!)Now that I think of it, maybe the Aalbanese should be fighter/sorcerers- to contrast with the militant (and quite possibly largely) fighter/wizards of Caurenze.Hmm... I don't mind both the Aalbanese and the Caurenzians being wizards or fighter/wizards. Is there a "militant wizard" prestige class similar to the old 2nd edition AD&D kit? A battle mage of some kind?
That's a good way to differentiate them. I like this. They are definitely described in different terms. Perhaps their "lack" of natural magic is one of the reasons behind the differences. I definitely like this.
Great. The fact that the Alhambrans use wizardry and the Ellerowyns use old style elven sorcery could lead to (yet another) de Belcadiz minority complex and hostility between the two elven clans.
I still think, though, that with all the scholars and paper mills in Erewan, a large number of the erewan elves could be wizards while all the other elves could have minor sorcerous powers (I believe some kind of feat "magical affinity" was invented for 3E Mystara elves to reflect this? giving all elves, regardless of class, a few spells every day)
So, in conclusion:
The houses of Linden and Silverston are pure sorcerors.
The clan of Ellerovyn are sorcerors but have a number of wizard scholars in their ranks.
The House of Singhabad are wizards with the occasional Hakamon sorceror.
The Houses of Igorov and Alhambra are wizards.
The Houses of Sylaire and Crownguard are wizards (perhaps with a natural affinity for metamagic)
The Houses of Sirecchia and Ritterburg are wizards or wizard/fighters and very fond of battle-magic.
:-) Jesper
Because sorcerers can choose so relatively few spells of each level, they are somewhat forced to "plan out their carreer" in advance, i.e. which spells to take at which levels, to gain maximum versatility and flexibility.
What if, just as an example, a sorcerer was allowed to "upgrade" her spells when she reached a higher level?
Most players (at least IMC) would not choose a low-level illusion spell or monster summoning spell because later they could choose a much more powerful spell of a similar nature and then the low-level spell would be just a waste to have learned. Or not?
I imagine a sorcerer who knows Invisibility and Monster Summoning II at 5th level. Later, the character reaches a higher level and then replaces these spells with Improved Invisibility and Monster Summoning IV. This reflects that as the sorcerer becomes more powerful so does her spells. But with the replacement she looses the ability to cast Invisibility and MS II forever, thus freeing up slots to learn two new 2nd level spells of her choosing.
Of course, only spells that exist in several power-versions should be allowed to be replaced. A sorcerer should not be allowed to replace e.g. a detect secret doors with a fly spell. At the most e.g. a burning hands with a fireball or a Wall of Fire spell.
What do you think? A game-breaker? A cool idea?
:-) Jesper
What if, just as an example, a sorcerer was allowed to "upgrade" her spells when she reached a higher level?
Sorcerers can already do this to an extent, in 3.5.
From the system reference document: "Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level."
It doesn't quite match up with what you've suggested, but since there is a precedent for spell swapping (and in the rules, there is no regulation against complete changes, like the fly for detect secret doors one you suggest), I don't see any reason why your suggestion would be any more problematic.
In fact, by making the exchange only viable for similar spells (like monster summoning I for V)- keeping things "thematic"- your suggestion probably works a bit better.
Essentially, sorcerers doing things your way would be "upgrading" existing powers, and allowing them to "explore" their sorcerous abilities and discover new (albeit "lesser") powers.
Ex: "I've learned to turn my ability to produce flames from my hand into a fireball I can throw at my enemies, and I've also discovered how to use my fire abilities to sense hostile auras- the evil flames within others! (A sorcerer swaps out his produce flame power for fireball, and picks up detect evil in place of produce flame, or somesuch.)
What do you think? A game-breaker? A cool idea?
Cool idea!
Ex: "I've learned to turn my ability to produce flames from my hand into a fireball I can throw at my enemies, and I've also discovered how to use my fire abilities to sense hostile auras- the evil flames within others! (A sorcerer swaps out his produce flame power for fireball, and picks up detect evil in place of produce flame, or somesuch.)
Yep! It's definately a cool idea!
What do you think? A game-breaker? A cool idea?
Definately not a game-breaker. However, it does make the Sorcerer class a bit more powerful, and from my experience most players already prefer Sorcerers to Wizards, at least for low-level campaigns, but even for ones where the PCs are expected to reach higher levels.
But I understand your reasons for including such a rule. I probably would too rather than have the player be frustrated about bad choices he made at earlier stages of the campaign.
Håvard