I don't know if I'm alone out here, but I find this concept a little bit absurd. I wasn't a great fan of the pre-set tables in 2ed RL, but at least they had something put straight:
---- Imagine the following situations:-----
You are a warrior, a skilled combatant, making your life by gutting opponents and fighting in battles with blood n' gore flying everywhere etc.
Now you're a wizard. having spent your wholle younghood in a studyroom, learning spells, knowledge of lore etc.
Which of the above two would be more mentally and emotionally capable of dealing with a scene of atrocity or hair-raising fear?.....The warrior. :fight!:
Which should be better in guarding his mental sanity from a manifestation of evil or something beyond their wildest imagination?....The wizard.
So, IMO by putting every save will-based you eliminate the fighter's chance of overcoming something that could even pass unnoticed to him.
Until now, IMC I was using the 3rd edition rules (although misread, as I now see), by making every check a new condition and applying + and - seperately for each class and even player, according with the situation. IMO, will saves suck!!It all occured to me 1-2 weeks ago, when one of my fighters added his Iron Will to his roll. Now everyone goes for Iron Wills like they were candy. Is this some wrong understanding of my own? I'd love to hear some thoughts and/or insights on this matter by all of you.
Cheers!!
If the player is acting out what he sees then there is no need for them in the first place.
I have no problem with will saves. I still give + and - in specific situations depending on the character. Depending on the character sometimes I just don't even call for the check from some of the characters.
If that mage wouldn't be scared by the magic he is seeing...then no roll. Maybe a spellcraft roll first to see if he recognizes it.
I wanted to focus more on the mechanics of the rolls. How to play them right and give each character/ class its own pros and cons. Maybe I'll have to make some list to provide some basic plus/minus according to class, like back in 2ed. I'll work on that...Lestat, here comes a mirroring to do!!!! :D
Cheers!!
In Ravenloft 3.x, of course, we don't have those separate saves. It is easy enough to create them, by just using the "good" and "bad" saving throw columns in the front of the Player's Guide.
Hrm. Now that I think about it, I believe I'll do that for my upcoming campaign. :D
I've always just kind of 'winged' it keeping in mind thats they're about the rp side of things I make decisions based on what it is, what character class and alignment, what they've seen in the past, what they've failed and passed in the past etc.
As for an actual system...I don't know.
You could just write up a table with +/-
Personally I think the amount of different horror/fear/madness checks makes it so that a simple table can't possibly cover it all.
Fear vs Horror: Fear is a will save but Horror is a Fort save modified by Wisdom. By varrying from one to the other you can affect which types of PCs are more likely to fare better.
A Fighter type should deal well with horrific situations that the sheltered wizard ought to have problems with...say a corpse strewn battlefield littered with people you knew. The fighter type understands and lives among violence. He or she is more likely to be "able to take it". The "cloistered" wizard by contrast may never have seen such horror before.
On the other hand Fear generally represents something so immenantly scarry that the "fight/flight" reflex is evoked *and* the use of "physical force" seems to hold small chance of success. The fighter who has lived his or her life solving problems with a weapon's edge sudenly seems to have no viable options (ie. is screwed). He or she is likely to panic. The sterotyped wizard by contrast almost never fights, but instead analyses and seeks weaknesses to exploit.. In fact as a "weakling" everything already seems bigger and badder. The analytical wizard is less likely to panic.
As for Iron Will...well its a good feat in RL and can simulate mulish stuborness, a great heart, or someone who has survived great tests of character. Its a choice that fits for many PC types. Characters stand to benifit from it - and its often not fun to flee at an important encounter. Unsurprisingly many PCs take it. (Of course it can also be fun to play a coward who runs at every oppertunity!). As a judge I wouldn't worry about lots of PCs taking it.
-Eric Gorman
Horror often involves something magical in nature. Such as a loved one transforming into a hideous beast. Fighters know nothing about magic, and become the most horrified by its application.
Its not simply a matter of 'taking' it. Its just one of those things, was it so shocking and horrible that it affects the character?
I would argue that fear on the other hand is right up a fighter's ally. A fighter has spent a lot of time in life and death battles. He/she is no stranger to the fear that courses through you when you are actually in those battles. And is aware that sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. A wizard on the other hand is quite a fragile being and has no experience in the actual nitty gritty of combat and imminent danger.
With preparation a wizard can plan to overcome a foe but when its right there threatening his/her life then its time to run.
You're a fighter, sure you're not scared by a barroom brawl and you can face death as well as anyone...but all you know about the "supernatural" are the scarry storries your granny told you as a child. Your sword can't hurt the werewolf. The guy you just killed got up as a zombie. Your approach to "problem solving" isn't working and you can feel the tide turning (and maybe you start thinking of all grannies heros who bit it). Fear eats at you.
To the scholar these things are unusual phenomons. Is the "werewolf's" transformation actuall a spell or a shapeshifting druid? Do you have some idea how to cast Animate Dead? These are problems to be solved.
Horror doesn't have to be magical. I don't even think magic is even the heart of horror. Its more about tragedy. Who has seen more tragic things? The fighter from the campaign? Or the bookworm in the tower?
Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.
-Eric Gorman
in front of HvF feet...Man, it's three times now you've provided insights for my pledges...Hehehe. We are really, really seeing eye to eye on this matter. Well, it seems like this thread has come to its end. I've received great food for thought so far and I'm going to work on it. Once again everyone, you've been magnificent, even in your arguments. Troille, Belac, Rucht...Hvf...
Cheers all!!
I was mostly playing devil's advocate in this thread.
I think that the individual class bonuses/minuses to fear/horror/madness are good but they should be used with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't go overboard with them.
I think the most important thing is to realize that sometimes fear is caused by 2 different things...sometimes knowing about something causes fear while the character who is oblivious wouldn't be afraid...etc.
Thats why I mostly make up the +/- on the fly.
Clerics of all classes too are the best to take fear/horror and not just b/c of their wisdom...
But yeah I'll shut up now...haha.
Just wanted to say that I don't disagree completely...I just think putting a flat rate to all fear or all horror...doesn't really cover it.
Leave the rules and think for yourselves.
What concernes fear/horror/madness checks, IMO you have to approach to every single character individually. My players keep records of their encounters and i remember exactly, what they have seen in game, what is their history, what they fear, what they love, what they believe etc., it's called roleplaying and as a DM my duty is to remember all aspects of every character, and then quickly modify the saves.
IMO there can be no strict rules in Ravenloft games, because the concept of this demiplane is against them in general. Rules are something known, something known is not feared... for players, they need to be confused and threatened when you feel that it is so needed atm. So Ravenloft's DM must be first a good storyteller, he must know the minds of his players and the last thing that is important is to have thousands of tables and rules.
All you need is a scrap of paper, set of dice and a clear vision of what Ravenloft is.