Dregoth, the Undead Dragon-King, Dread Lord of New Giustenal (Level 75)
Class/Levels: Erudite 8/Wizard(defiler) 3/Cerebmancer 4/Arch-Defiler 10/Metamind 10/Arch Psion 5/Archmage 5/Dragon(stage-1) 10/Dragon(stage-2) 10/Dragon(stage-3) 10
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Giants), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Dragon (Stage 3), Kaisharga
Hamanu, King of the World, and Lion of Urik (Level 65)
Class/Levels: Commoner 3/Marshal 15/Tactical Soldier 5/War Mind 10/Wizard(defiler) 17/Dragon(unique) 15
Templates: Champion of Rajaat II (Trolls, other Champions and all rebirth races not already covered by the other Champions including Humans), Sorcerer-Monarch
Nibenay, the Shadow King of Nibenay (Level 60)
Class/Levels: Psion(seer) 5/Wizard(defiler) 10/Shadow Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Shadow Mind 10/Dragon (stage-1) 10/Dragon (stage-2) 5
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Gnomes), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2)
Lalai-Puy, the Oba, Forest-Goddess of Gulg (Level 55)
Class/Levels: Psion(telepath) 15/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Thrallherd 10/Dragon (stage-1) 10
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Aaracokra), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1)
Oronis, the Avangion of Kurn (Level 51)
Class/Levels: Psion(egoist) 11/Wizard(preserver)17/Sangehirn 10/Avangion (stage-1) 10/Avangion (stage-2) 3
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Lizard Men), Sorcerer-Monarch, Avangion (Stage 1), Avangion (Stage 2)
Daskinor, the Mad King of Eldaarich (Level 50)
Class/Levels: Wilder 25/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 5
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Goblins), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1)
Note, those are the surviving ones after the events of the Prism Pentad. I'm working on the ones who died in the Prism Pentad, then I'll also try to get ones for the rest of the Champions/Sorcerer-Kings that had died before then. These are rough approximations, and by no means perfected. some of the PrC's I have listed are set for 3e rules, and not updated to 3.5e, whihc would need to be looked at. but, it hopefully helps give a guideline to work with, for those who wanted to know what I felt they should be.
I'd REALLY like to see Borys and Kalak ;)
If people want, I can give explanations as to my reasoning behind the variations for them all, but I hope they are relatively self-explanatory.
Never heard of those before, and what books are they from?
Great work!!
Now, could you tell me what books some of these Prc's & Templates come from??
The ones I'm at a particular loss to ID are:
Templates:
Sorceror-Monarch
Champion of Rajat
Prestige Classes:
Arch-Defiler
Erudite
Cerebmancer
Marshal
Sangehirn
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Mind
Thrallherd
Tactical Soldier
Any info on where those are would be great!
Thanks,
Slingbld~
Thank you once again, excellent by the way.
I want to see your templates Sorceror-Monarch, the unique Dragon and Champion 2 for Hamanu some days.
Originally posted by slingbld
OK!
Great work!!
Now, could you tell me what books some of these Prc's & Templates come from??
The ones I'm at a particular loss to ID are:
Templates:
Sorceror-Monarch - My own template. Working on retrieving it for use again. Pennarin has a merged version of this and the next template together.
To summarize - this template ireflects the changes they recieved when borys used the Dark Lens on them, and their connection with the Elemental Vortices, allowing then to, among other things, grant divine spells to their Templars, communicate remotely with their Templars, anuse their Templars' senses to extend their own, allowing for them to cast spells, use powers and the such through them, if needed.
Champion of Rajaat - My own template. As with the previous.
To summarize - this template makes them immortal and also grants them certian abilities to help in their genocidal wars against their specified races. I'm thinking of reworking it slightly to reflect an almost addiction they have towards killing the race, a desire that is almost overwhelming that makes them very passionate about finishing their task. Once their job is done, then they find peace.
Prestige Classes:
Arch-Defiler - Jon's site, Athas Online.
Erudite - Dragon magazine, if I recall. #319 I wanna say.
Cerebmancer - Expanded Psionics Handbook
Marshal - Miniatures Handbook
Metamind - Expanded Psionics Handbook
Sangehirn - The Mind's Eye (wotC's D&D Website, Psionics-specific part)
Shadow Wizard - Athas Online
Shadow Mind - The Mind's Eye
Thrallherd - Expanded Psionics Handbook
Tactical Soldier - Miniatures Handbook
Arch Psion - The Mind's Eye
War Mind - Expanded Psionics Handbook
- note: the PrC's from The Mind's Eye are 3e rules still, and need to be converted to the rules presented in the XPH. I'll try to get a link to Jon's site, but I know that Grummore has it, as does Jon (in his Sig). The stuff from Athas Online also is 3e rules, and needs conversion.
Hamanu's Dragon (unique) and Champion of Rajaat II are something special I'm whipping up just for him. They aren't done yet - but I'll slap them up there.
(still working on the SK's who died in the Prism Pentad series, to include the Dragon)
The divine abilities of the gods would obviously make up for their lack of hit dice (most gods only have 40 or less HD) but I could definately see, Dregoth, for instance killing a few of these gods in a one-on-one fight. I'd even be tempted, once I had all the stats etc. from XLOR to run some mock battles with one of my fellow DM's. I shudder at what Borys is gonna look like!
Could make for an interesting afternoon of gaming
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
After checking out the character levels of the SK's listed here, and those of the sample D&D gods in the Deities and Demigods book, I'd say that a fight between one of the SK's, and one of those gods would be pretty damn cool.
The divine abilities of the gods would obviously make up for their lack of hit dice (most gods only have 40 or less HD) but I could definately see, Dregoth, for instance killing a few of these gods in a one-on-one fight. I'd even be tempted, once I had all the stats etc. from XLOR to run some mock battles with one of my fellow DM's. I shudder at what Borys is gonna look like!
Could make for an interesting afternoon of gaming
The Champion & SM templates give the Sorcerer-Monarchs some level of power that would be more associated with deities, without them having any divine ranks, or actually being a deity themselves. I borrowed some ideas from Deities and Demigods for those two templates when I made them, and retrofitted them/changed them to meet what I felt was needed for the Templates. But yea, I definitely want to give the impression that the Sorcerer-Monarchs could challenge gods if they were available, purely without including the gods' divine powers in the mix. and remember - most gods in Deities & Demigods are 40 class levels + 20 HD of Outsider, so they are actually 60 HD total.
So here is a little résumé:
The Erudite is a psionic core class, not a PrC, from Dragon Magazine #319.
The erudite is nearly the same class as the psion. On the Erudite Class Table, from left to right, up and including Power Points/Day, is the same as the Psion. Powers known and Maximum Power Level Known are replaced with Unique Powers per Day. That progression at 20th-level is 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. Furthermore, at 1st-level, instead of the Discipline class ability is a bonus Psicrystal Affinity feat.
Unique Powers per Day: at 20th-level, for the first 4 different powers the erudite manifests for a given level, he becomes stuck with those for the rest of the day. Say he knows A to Z 1st-level powers, once he’s manifested powers A, B, M and X, he’s stuck with those. He cannot manifest power N for that day.
Severe restriction.
Enormous versatility (because of the ability to commit powers to his repertoire, see below).
"Each time an erudite achieves a new level, he learns additional powers according to his class schedule. An erudite learns two powers of his choice to add to his repertoire in this fashion. The two free powers must be of levels the erudite can manifest."
The erudite can only choose powers from the Psion/Wilder list.
The main way for an Erudite to learn powers, though, is by commiting powers to his repertoire. These can come from any power list. He gets the power from another mind’s repertoire or a power stone. He makes contact (Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest level power contained in the stone or the repertoire). An erudite can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Mental contact requires 1 full roundof physical contact, wich can provoke attacks of opportunity.
Another Psicraft check to see if he understands the power and if yes, he can now commit the power to his repertoire. Requires 8 hours of meditation (power stone or creature is not required). Cost 20 XP per power. The power is now permanently known by the erudite. He can learn hundreds of powers like that if he wants to and if others are willing.
I cut a lot out from the wording, but the gist is there.
I see you've got Inenek at 55, and I can presume that Uyness will be even lower than that.
I've got Farcluun at 41 right now.
Aristocrat 1/Wizard(defiler) 17/Erudite 13/Archmage 1/Dragon (stage-1) 9
Class/Levels: Psychic Warrior 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 8/Dragon (stage-4)* 22
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Dwarves), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Dragon (Stage 3), Dragon (Stage 4)
Andropinis, the Dictator of Balic (Level 58)
Class/Levels: Aristocrat 3/Psion(nomad) 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 10, Dragon (stage 2) 5
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Elves), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Blacktouched**
Abalach-Re, the Great Vizier of Raam (Level 54) ***
Class/Levels: Psion (telepath) 26/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 8
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Orcs), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1)
Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr (Level 53)
Class/Levels: Psion (shaper) 11/Wizard (defiler) 13/Arch Defiler 10/Archmage 5/Dragon (stage-1) 10/Dragon (stage-2) 4
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Ogres), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Dragon (Stage 3)****, Dragon (Stage 4)****
Tectucktitlay, the Father of Life and Master of the Two Moons for Draj (Level 52)
Class/Levels: Warrior 5/Psion (kineticist) 20/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 7
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Wemics), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1)
* I haven't made the Stage-4 prestige class yet, but it will be modelled after how Dragon Age Categories for Epic Dragons works from the Epic Level Handbook. There is no equivalent to the upcoming prestige class for this found in 2e materials. Also - note that Borys, though the use of the Dark Lens, and with the assistance of the other Sorcerer-Kings, accelerated his development when he made everyone Sorcerer-Kings in order to become the Dragon. As such, he's an underdeveloped dragon by my rules, and is lacking certian features associated with "normal" dragons - like wings.
** The Blacktouched template is only applied after or during Andropinis' imprisonment in The Black by Rajaat.
*** Looking for Prestige Classes better suited for Abalach-Re and her....ahem....appetites.
**** Kalak casts these spells in succession during the Verdant Passage to accelerate and complete his metamorphosis, at the expense of the lives of the entire population of the city-state of Tyr.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Ah, so the Erudite is essentially a wizard but for psionics. I think I have that Dragon magazine so I'll check it out. Sounds interesting to say the least.
Actually that was the first impression I made of it too, and that was a mistake.
It seems to be a bit more than that from what I gather from Penn.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Great stuff Xlor!
I see you've got Inenek at 55, and I can presume that Uyness will be even lower than that.
I've got Farcluun at 41 right now.
Aristocrat 1/Wizard(defiler) 17/Erudite 13/Archmage 1/Dragon (stage-1) 9
Hehe, Farcluun ends up being almost 10 levels lower than the weakest of my write-ups here - Daskinor. But, he's further in the Dragon metamorphosis process (been more active, probably). Makes sense to me
And yes, Uyness is 1 level lower than Inenek. A lot of the Sorcerer-Kings are pretty close, level-wise, but there's a 25-level gap between Daskinor and the undead badass himself, Dregoth.
Originally posted by fallen_akriel
Exactly what i was seeking the other day ;)
Thank you once again, excellent by the way.
Figured, no problem
I want to see your templates Sorceror-Monarch, the unique Dragon and Champion 2 for Hamanu some days.
Well, basically - the unique dragon is stage-less - Rajaat reworked the metamorphosis to be one solid progression, also something that Hamanu has no real control over. for every 5 levels he advances, he must add a level of Dragon. Further, if he uses Arcane magic, is attacked by Arcane magic, either through "normal" or dragon means, he accelerates his metamorphosis rate. this goes a step further if he ends up killing a Human, Champion or any of the other Rebirth races that the other Champions aren't tasked to wiping out, he accelerates it further. Absorbing the life-energy of such beings compounds it even more. and he craves this energy - which he starves himself from getting in order to slow down his rate of metamorphosis. Rajaat also made it impossible for him to eventually control the Animalistic Rampage - he'll go mad, and then revert to his animalistic desires - to finish Rajaat's work and wipe everything else out from the Rebirth races. He fears this change. Oh, he also didn't have the same prerequisites that the other do for becoming a Dragon.
The Champion of Rajaat II is what started him on the dragon metamorphosis, makes him immune to the Scorcher and Scourge, from dragon attacks (claws, bites, breath weapns, etc), heal from dragon bane weapons, absorb and re-cycle any arcane energies wielded against him, and more. It's a sort of retrofit of the Template the others have,which Rajaat made to ensure his success. Rajaat wasn't expecting one thing however - Hamanu's will to fight it off, and his belief that Humans should not be annihilated. Or Hamanu's "friendship" with Borys that kicked off the rebellion. but, I figure, Rajaat is biding his time in the Hollow, knowing that his time bomb in Hamanu will eventually complete the work Rajaat desires, and would, inadvertantly, free Rajaat as well.
From there the fight goes from interesting to just a plain whipping, sk's wouldn't stand a chance.
Sure, they've had a few thousand years to build up power. But most gods have had just a long, if not longer.
Here's the difference - gods have more followers. They travel the planes, and are constantly plotting against other gods. They participiate in epic level wars, plots and intriques. And as one of the 2e DS source books stated... the tablelands have been stagnant for milenia.
The SK's, with the possible exception of Dregoth and Boyrs, have simply not been as active as most gods for as long and most gods. I'd say most gods would start at around level 80 or so, godlings maybe if they are ****-weak at level 60.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
After checking out the character levels of the SK's listed here, and those of the sample D&D gods in the Deities and Demigods book, I'd say that a fight between one of the SK's, and one of those gods would be pretty damn cool.
The divine abilities of the gods would obviously make up for their lack of hit dice (most gods only have 40 or less HD) but I could definately see, Dregoth, for instance killing a few of these gods in a one-on-one fight. I'd even be tempted, once I had all the stats etc. from XLOR to run some mock battles with one of my fellow DM's. I shudder at what Borys is gonna look like!
Could make for an interesting afternoon of gaming
Originally posted by Jaanos
What everyone seems to forget when they bring up that scenario (which i agree would be quite cool) is that the sample Gods presented are without epic levels. But as the book states, there is nothing stopping them having epic levels as well.
From there the fight goes from interesting to just a plain whipping, sk's wouldn't stand a chance.
Sure, they've had a few thousand years to build up power. But most gods have had just a long, if not longer.
Here's the difference - gods have more followers. They travel the planes, and are constantly plotting against other gods. They participiate in epic level wars, plots and intriques. And as one of the 2e DS source books stated... the tablelands have been stagnant for milenia.
The SK's, with the possible exception of Dregoth and Boyrs, have simply not been as active as most gods for as long and most gods. I'd say most gods would start at around level 80 or so, godlings maybe if they are ****-weak at level 60.
Not forgetting at all about this detail you mention. The thing is - comparing the SK's against the deities as written in Deities & Demigods, there is a chance. I personally know that there'd be no way in hell that any of the SK's could stand up to the likes of most deities. That's what the Divine Ranks are for - it's a non-level way of separating out, and distinguishing Deities as something else. They also, by virtue of their Divine Ranks, have no Challenge Ratings, because adventurers shouldn't be encountering them.
At the same time - there's presidence in the case of mortals fighting gods throughout D&D literature. In Forgotten Realms, there's the Time of Troubles. Sure, the gods were mortal then, but still... In Dragonlance, you have Raistlin's squaring off with the Queen of Darkness, whopping serious ass, killing her, taking her place, then systematically wiping out the entire pantheon of deities and destroying the world. I think Raistlin, however, would most likely have a parallel on Athas with Dregoth, and they might be somewhere along the same power level. Time after time again, you see mortals fighting gods, and winning. Now, this can seriously mess up a campaign setting, and isn't something I personally let happen in my games. However, from the player character standpoint - to go up, fight your god, win, and become a god, that's some serious bragging rights, and if done right, can be something talked about for years.
However, you'd already said that yea, it would be fun, so you already knew this. No big deal there either. Basically - I borrowed ideas from Deities and Demigods with my templates, but I intentionally didn't give them Divine Ranks - so as to ensure there was no question - the Sorcerer-Kings aren't gods. They are mortal beings (well, immortal beings) that are pretty much some of the most powerful on Athas, but aren't divine in any way (regardless of what Lalai-Puy or Tectuktitlay have convinced their people of). As such, they shouldn't win. Even if they had the same number of levels, they shouldn't win against a god.
And if there ever was a being deserving of being named a "god" on Athas - it would be Rajaat. BUT, even then, he's not a god. Just really frickin powerful, and makes the Sorcerer-Kings look like a Sunday Picnic. Which is one of those fun catch-22's I like throwing into the mix with my campaigns. Leave the Sorcerer-Kings, and their evil - or eventually get to the point to challenge and defeat/kill them, and reintroduce something into the world that is far worse. It's a fun decision my players get to make when they reach those wonderful epic levels....
One question and some comments:
The question is: who or what is "Inenek"? I don´t remember this name and I have all the DS game books.
And the comment is about Dregoth and Borys. IMO, the story about Dregoth inventing the Dragon Metamorphosis is against the story line as the Nomad and the Expanded Setting told it.
I think none of the Champions knew exactly what has Rajaat done to them with the firts transformation, until Borys discovered that the transformation in Champions was in fact the firts step to "something more" -the whole Dragon Metamorphosis (as you see, I disagree in the champion template... I see it unnecessary). That is the reason what caused that Borys become the Leader of the rebellion.
And Dregoth being more powerful than Borys is against the City by the Silt Sea, where Dregoth is presented one step under Borys.
Fray Fanatic
The stuff from Athas Online also is 3e rules, and needs conversion.
Yeah, I will be back on the development front after graduation. I've also made some changes to some of the classes, that are in another version of the document.
Originally posted by Fray_Fanatic
Hello everybody. That´s my first post but I´ve been reading this boards a lot of time. Sorry by my englinsh
One question and some comments:
The question is: who or what is "Inenek"? I don´t remember this name and I have all the DS game books.
Inenek = Lalai-Puy. I forget whih revealed that. Might have been the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King.
And the comment is about Dregoth and Borys. IMO, the story about Dregoth inventing the Dragon Metamorphosis is against the story line as the Nomad and the Expanded Setting told it.
I think none of the Champions knew exactly what has Rajaat done to them with the firts transformation, until Borys discovered that the transformation in Champions was in fact the firts step to "something more" -the whole Dragon Metamorphosis (as you see, I disagree in the champion template... I see it unnecessary). That is the reason what caused that Borys become the Leader of the rebellion.
Umm...... ok. Let's see here. There's a LOT of things to mention about this. first of all, my Dragon and Avangion write-ups are quite a step away from the (in my opinion) horribly weak and ineffectual versions from the 2e designs. Further, I don't use the Tribe of One for very much canon material, as it did get many things wrong - it's still got some cool ideas in it, but it's definitely not something I use as a strict rule everything must follow. Third, I know it goes against (somewhat) the Revised Setting material. However, it's building off of something suggested in Rise and Fall iof a Dragon King, as well as the detail that Dregoth, as opposed to any other Dragon King in the whole area has achieved level 29. Apparently, he's also conquered what Borys couldn't - the Animalistic Rampage, which by 2e mechanics, should have happened at level 27, and Dregoth should have gone completely cuckoo as a result. But he didn't. He remained in Giustenal, the other Sorcerer-Kings panicked when they heard that he was gonna finish the metamorphosis, ran off and slaughtered him in paranoia. Which to me means they have absolutely no idea when the animalistic rampage occurs. Now, another point to mention is that Borys was rushed through the metamophosis - that with the help of the other Sorcerer-Kings and the use of the Dark Lens, he achieved the maximum level of Dragon Metamorphosis early, and far too quickly - - because of the need for someone to become The Dragon. My Dragon metamorphosis rules account for this with details on accleerating & skipping parts of the metamorphosis - which causes deformities and a sort of stunted development, however they get the full Dragon Magic capabilities - which probably was needed to gather the energy for the spells binding Rajaat.
However, Dregoth didn't rush the process. And all of the other Sorcerer-Kings are what.... level 24 or lower? This made me think that there might have been maybe some merit in Lynn Abbey's idea she had in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King that Dregoth was already undergoing the dragon metamorphosis. Not the rest of them - because, well, the official timeline states that Borys started the metamorphosis processes when he made them Sorcerer-Kings and he became The Dragon with the Dark Lens. But - Dregoth is an anomalous problem with this. So, I propose - that there's been some blurring of the history, possibly somethng that only Borys and Dregoth are even really aware of...
Dregoth, while doing his war against Giants, stumbles on some ancient Blue Age information about a creature they could life-shape, called a Dragon (or whatever). some powerful thing, however that has been lost by time. In his determination for more and more power, Dregoth begins to attempt to use the powers he has before him - Arcane Magic and Psionics, in an attempt to become one of these fearsome things - maybe he convinced himself that this would help him defeat the Giants - which, I gotta say, he had the biggest race to wipe out of all of the Champions, so it might be natural that he wanted to become big too. He sits in the city of Giustenal, and become devoted to developing this process, and starts to neglegt his actual war - sure, he'd make sure he was doing enough so that Rajaat wouldn't get upset, but he basically sat there, and developed/invented the spell. Then he casts it on himself - possibly killing several of the people within his army to quicken or fuel the spell, and presto, he starts the Dragon Metamorphosis.
Along comes Rajaat, who's already upset that one of his most powerful champions has been neglecting his duties, and shows up at Giustenal's doorstep to knock some sense into Dregoth, and sees something's different in his creation. Rather than get overly upset and kill him (but still be upset and get hm motivated), instead, Rajaat steals the spell for the metamorphosis, and begins to look over it. Flawed as it is, he sees that it actually could be quite useful. But to make a test ubject for his idea. Well - Myron starts to be a pain in the ass, so Rajaat snatches Manu of Deche (Hamanu), brings the boy to the Pristine tower, redesigns what he did to the other Champions, and makes a new kind of Champion - combined with his rewritten/redesigned version of the metamorphosis spell, and sends Hamanu out to kill Myron and to finish Myron's job (at first). Hamanu is frighteningly effective in both accounts, kills his first Champion and within a rather short period of time, routes and kills the last of the Trolls. rajaat then pulls Hamanu off to the side, and tells him the next step in the plan - Hamanu is supposed to kill the Humans, as Halflings are going to inherit the world. Also - if the other Champions get in his way - Hamanu is permitted to just kill them - most of them completed their jobs anyway, and he might be feeling that some of them could be turning on him soon. Hoirrified, Hamanu plays it calm and cool, tells his master he'll get right on it, and takes off.
Meanwhile, Borys, who has been having all kinds of trouble with the Dwarves (damned things are more stubborn than anything he's ever encountered), and runs into Dregoth, possibly catches a peek at what Dregoth is becoming/looks like, and becomes curious, visualizing some sort of new power he can use against the Dwarves. Dregoth finally submits and explains the process, helping Borys to start the process, figuring that Dregoth himself would always be the more powerful one, since he started it first, and it might be a good study to watch Borys and see what the metamorphosis does to him. Th part ways, and shortly thereafter, Hamanu shows up near Borys and explains the insanity of Rajaat's schemes, and the lies he';s told his Champions. borys, already concerned hat Rajaat isn't what he's cracked up to be, flips, rallys the support of the other Champions, and thy do their Rebellion against their master.
Afterward, Borys fuses them all with energy from the Dark Lens, and effectively makes them all Sorcerer-Kings, with the side-effect of them now being able to grant divine spells to certian followers. He also initiates the Dragon Metamorphosis in the other Sorcerer-Kings (and may be a little confused about Hamanu already having started it, but possibly figured Dregoth showed him - and didn't think much of it), using the Dark Lens. then, they realize they need someone powerful to keep the bonds up on Rajaat's new prison. Dregoth, ever so cunnincly, suggests that borys be the one to, with the use of the Dark Lens, accelerate to the completion of the metamorphosis, which should be powerful enough to do this (and to use Borys, his "comrade" as a scientific "guinea pig" - and see how this affects Borys, to help safeguard himself), and they all agree - after all, Borys started everyone else's metamorphosis, was the leader of the rebelion, and thus would be the perfect chioce for this.
Well, Borys is made into the Dragon, and then rampages wildly across the Tablelands for a century, as his mind is crushed through the effects of the animalistic rampage. He wipes out much of the vegitation, as the others slip out and grab their cities, then calms down, and reinforces Rajaat's prison, sets up the levy system, and more. His rampage was nasty enogh, that the other Sorcerer-Kings see that Dregoth is about to finish his own metamorohosis, they panic and kill him before it's too late, with Hamanu being the one with the killing blow. Later, Kalid-Ma acceleratss the process, and Borys, Hamanu (and, as one person suggested, Kalak) go and kill Kalid-Ma so he doesn't rampage. Hamanu then again kills sielba - which I think was due to her proximity to his city and his own fear of his unholy lusts & desires for her life energy that Rajaat infused him with.
---
Also - about the Champion template. The official timeline has Rajaat making them Champions, while Borys made them Sorcerer-Kings. Simple as that. I got the ideas of the abilities based on some of what Abbey had suggested - that they had unique powers specific to the hunting, tracking, and killing their specified race. They may have very well been addicted to the feeling of killing one of these creatures, which could have been a motivation to keep them going, and prod them to wiping the whole race out. - as she suggests with Myron requiring that he's the only one allowed to kill Trolls in his army, the army's merely there to route them and capture a few at a time (Myron might have seen the folley of wiping them all out, and that his addiction to the feeling of killing them was so great, that he intentionally prolonged his war to keep the population numbers high enough that he'd never run out of Trolls to kill). That's the kind of thngs I have in the Champion template - things that makes sense for the individuals destined to wipe out genocidally, an entire race from the face of Athas (Except for Hamanu, but he REALLY is a special case).
And there are three individuals who were Champions but never Dragons nor Sorcerer-Kings: Myron of Yoram (the first Troll Scorcher), Sacha of Arala (the Curse of Kobolds) and Wyan of Bodach (the Pixie Blight).
And Dregoth being more powerful than Borys is against the City by the Silt Sea, where Dregoth is presented one step under Borys.
Fray Fanatic
And in my write-up, he is one step under Borys. Notice how he's a Stage-3 Dragon, while Borys is a Stage-4. There's a significant difference in power there, and basically, it is almost separate from the levels. And with the way 3e/3.5e rules are anyway, people can have all kinds of levels before they start a PrC..
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Yeah, I will be back on the development front after graduation. I've also made some changes to some of the classes, that are in another version of the document.
Coolness. I figured you'd get to it eventually.
Aside from that I like your Writeups Xlor, but I'm gonna adjust a few of them a littlebit.. Cerebramancer has no place in there... I just dont see Dregoth running around with that enlarged head thats portraited in the XPH. But overall nice job =)
Originally posted by zerpentor
bleh... Erudite.. that name/class will never appear in any of my DS material, since it was a race in Everquest and the Core class is a 110% ripoff from Everquest both in ability and appearance.
Aside from that I like your Writeups Xlor, but I'm gonna adjust a few of them a littlebit.. Cerebramancer has no place in there... I just dont see Dregoth running around with that enlarged head thats portraited in the XPH. But overall nice job =)
Despite the similarities, remember that Erudite was a word long before Everquest - and it did have to do with an extraordinary thinker, if I remember correctly. I found the class idea to be great, and fit well with the concept I had for Dregoth. I used Cerebmancer in his design, because otherwise he was reaching level 80+, and this helped keep him slightly more manageable. He's also a metamind (which had the big head picture in the XPH), but those pictures don't necessarily relate to what the character looks like. I designed him off the principle that he's been determined, from day 1, to be the most powerful thing on Athas, as he continued, he develops the Dragon metamorphosis to do just that, then when he is killed & returns as undead, frustrated that he can't compldete the dragon metamorphosis he becomes focused on something new - what I figure would be godhood - if there was any Sorcerer-King who would be reaching for Godhood, it would be Dregoth.
Actually, one of my players from TN saw my rough setup here for Dregoth, and nearly crapped himself. He was one of those who thought he could "take 'em", and now is quite glad he never had a run-in with Dregoth at all, or really, any of the Sorcerer-Kings - cause even the lowest-level one I have here is level 50. And what he lacks in power, he makes up in unpredictability, schitzophrenia, and a sort of knack for drawning people in to play roles in his bizarre and twisted nightmares he believes are reality.
Originally posted by Pennarin
You mean Daskinor don't you?
Yes, Daskinor is the level 50 insane Sorcerer-King. I've been thinking of making him have an effect verysimilar to the really whacko versions of Marauders from the game Mage: The Ascention. Simply because it helps make more sense with the way his insanity has sort of "seeped" into all of Eldaaritch.
I've been trying to find basic ideas for a druid-PrC, a kind of guardian-warrior. A prerequisite could be the Wild Shape ability and each time the guardian-warrior uses its wild-shape he could instead call upon a local spirit of the land (or just an aspect of it, like earth) to lend him strength, to gird him with power.
A brute can rage, a druid can wildshape, a guardian-warrior could spiritshape.
What kind of abilities would it get each level? I'm thinking he doesn't get +1 spellcaster level but indtead gets more uses of spiritshape and more potent abilities because of the sacrifice.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Anyone know if Brax ever released his bit on Kurn and Eldaarich?
There's more than Wisdom of the Drylanders?
Originally posted by Pennarin
There's more than Wisdom of the Drylanders?
Yes, that's only the prelude or something, if I remember. "the Lost Cities" project is supposed to be a detailed look at Kurn and Eldaaritch, something like the detail already done for Gulg, Nibenay, Tyr and Draj, which sould be rather impressive. I remember Brax mentioning that Kurn (both Old and New) aren't all flowers and rainbows, but is also a rather dark and dangerous place to be at too - but compared to the other City-State's, it does have better living conditions for the people in it/them.
Mmmmmm....
The funny thing is - even if Sorcerer's on Athas aren't your thing - Hamanu, by virtue of his.... unique change thanks to Rajaat, could just be an anomaly. Or, if you want to go with the idea I have (thanks to a chat with Nytcrawlr), other Sorcerers are the decendents of the Sorcerer-Monarchs - some have a few more than others - who have been around for thousands of years, and have possibly more offspring than even they can be certian of, entire families could be decendents of Sorecerer-Kings, that can trace their family heratige many generations back to some Sorcerer-King in the past - not that they'd be aware of it. Heck, some just wouldn't understand that they are these decendents, or that they are related at all to the Sorcerer-Monarchs at all.
Release the sorcerers, I say!
int eh Draconomicon it has a Pristiege Class that Lets a Dragon Reach a Semi-Divine level. My Idea for Dragon Kings Used prestige Classes, a PrC simmiler to Dragon Disciple, then another to take the PC to Full Dragon status (a 20 lev Class). Both with the Prereq to be able to manifest/Cast 9th lev Defilier spells and 9th level Psion abilities.
Your Ideas are very cool thou, your understanding of the setting is awesome.
Thansk for you hard work, makes my Campainge easier to design when I "Borrow" Ideas fomr others.
-Wolfe
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Let's see, Rajaat first experimented with magic over 8,000 years before present times. That's longer than most campaign worlds have been around. Again, I fail to see why people have a problem with Sorcerers. Sure, they are a "spontaneous spellcaster" which kind of steps on a psion's toes, but with the 3.5 psi-book, that threat's largely removed.
Release the sorcerers, I say!
I'm getting closer to allowing them.
Going to take some time and break them both down though and see how much they really step on each other's toes, I'm probably just overreating, esp with 3.5 psionics out now and alot of changes going on.
Originally posted by col_wolfe
I'm still a newbie here, but ive spent about 20+ hours reading this board while campin my Epic on everquest.......
int eh Draconomicon it has a Pristiege Class that Lets a Dragon Reach a Semi-Divine level. My Idea for Dragon Kings Used prestige Classes, a PrC simmiler to Dragon Disciple, then another to take the PC to Full Dragon status (a 20 lev Class). Both with the Prereq to be able to manifest/Cast 9th lev Defilier spells and 9th level Psion abilities.
Your Ideas are very cool thou, your understanding of the setting is awesome.
Thansk for you hard work, makes my Campainge easier to design when I "Borrow" Ideas fomr others.
-Wolfe
I've actually been digging through the Dragonoomicron to see if there's any juicy tidbits of information I can yuse to help round out the Dragons. The hard part will be to also then balance the Avangion against it - with no basis in a book to really go off of. I've been thinking of blending fey-like qualities with those of "good" outsiders -= except that I don't personally think an Avangion, just like the Preservers they come from, are necessarily good, and could potentially be evil. as such, I've been working to keep that feel for them - that they could be evil. And that makes me want to make sure the possibility is there, and they aren't forced into a role of being positive-energy-based, or good-aligned in abilities - their abilities and powers could go both ways, or even just plain neutral.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I've actually been digging through the Dragonoomicron to see if there's any juicy tidbits of information I can yuse to help round out the Dragons. The hard part will be to also then balance the Avangion against it - with no basis in a book to really go off of. I've been thinking of blending fey-like qualities with those of "good" outsiders -= except that I don't personally think an Avangion, just like the Preservers they come from, are necessarily good, and could potentially be evil. as such, I've been working to keep that feel for them - that they could be evil. And that makes me want to make sure the possibility is there, and they aren't forced into a role of being positive-energy-based, or good-aligned in abilities - their abilities and powers could go both ways, or even just plain neutral.
Well, I'd Rule out Evil Avangions as they Developed a Aura at "28th-Level" that acted as a Protection Veruse Evil, and Dispels Magical darkness. to me, the Avangion is the Antithesis of of What the Dragons are. I've Always Thought that a Good Alinged Defilier would not be so very long as Defiling Gives the Weilder a Natrual "Taint" for lack of a better Word.
I do like your Idea about the champion of Rajatt PrC, That Grants the Immortality and Greater powers that the Dragon kings Weild, and it helps to Explain how Orinos when he "LOST" his Defilier (And Dragon levels) to become a Preserver, how he Managed to stay alive for the 1000 years of research it took him to become a Avangion. (Sourse: Defiliers and Preservers of Athas)
By your Theory Degroth/ Rajjat invented and perfected the Dragon Met. Spell, Who invented the Avagion Transformation process?
PS: How Many of the Champions were Sucessful in the Eradication of the Races? I seam to remember the Wemics being Gone, but Pazio had one in the DSPhb Mockery they printed.
Sacha of Arala, Curse of the Kobolds
Kalak, the Ogre Doom
Hamanu, the Troll Scorcher
Abalach-Re, the Orc Plague
Nibenay, the Bane of Gnomes
Tectuktitlay, the Wemic Annihilator
Wyan of Bodach, the Pixie Blight
Daskinor, the Goblin Death
I should probably state that it is a point of lots of discussions if Kalak was a champion. If he was or not, the Ogres are gone.
Originally posted by col_wolfe
Well, I'd Rule out Evil Avangions as they Developed a Aura at "28th-Level" that acted as a Protection Veruse Evil, and Dispels Magical darkness. to me, the Avangion is the Antithesis of of What the Dragons are. I've Always Thought that a Good Alinged Defilier would not be so very long as Defiling Gives the Weilder a Natrual "Taint" for lack of a better Word.
Well, I think I altered (or I know I will be altering) the "protection from evil" to be a "protection from " - which protects them against creatures of an opposing alignment good or evil. And they'd also either banash darkness, or become embodiments of darfkness, depending on their moral alignment. there's actually a bit of work I want to do for those - they'd still be the embodiment of the opposite of a Defiler - in that they become their own wellspring of energy and can use their energies to potentially restore Athas - but preservers can be evil, and it would be an odd rendition, but I think possible, for an evil Preserver to accomplish this.
I do like your Idea about the champion of Rajatt PrC, That Grants the Immortality and Greater powers that the Dragon kings Weild, and it helps to Explain how Orinos when he "LOST" his Defilier (And Dragon levels) to become a Preserver, how he Managed to stay alive for the 1000 years of research it took him to become a Avangion. (Sourse: Defiliers and Preservers of Athas)
Yep. He already was thousands of years old before he was made into a Dragon - the official timeline states that Borys made them into Dragons and into Sorcerer-Kings (able to grant templars their magic), not Rajaat. and the Cleansing Wars lasted for a very, very long time - longer than the Sorcerer-Kings have been in charge of their cities, I might add.
By your Theory Degroth/ Rajjat invented and perfected the Dragon Met. Spell, Who invented the Avagion Transformation process?
Oronis did. He discovered and invented it, which took him 1,000 years, possibly using the format and concept of the Dragon metamorphosis, but applying a more Preserver bent to it - effectively, he altered the Dragon version to make the Avangion. I have it so that he uses artifacts (based off of an idea from Tribe of One) and more psychic energy, plus other means to get around the life-force requirement of the Dragon metamorphosis. I believ e he was assisted by another Preserver, and he was (unwittingly or not) guided by a Pyreen (ie: druid). Yes, this makes a continuity issue with the legends of the Kreen Nation and the Avangion that ruled over them. However, I have that covered, in detail in another thread, the Inconsistancy thread called "the Great What?"
PS: How Many of the Champions were Sucessful in the Eradication of the Races? I seam to remember the Wemics being Gone, but Pazio had one in the DSPhb Mockery they printed.
Paizo has Hamanu pictured, and they made him look like a Wemic which makes absolutely no sense. Dawnstealer has a picture that's a thousand times better of him in his Jade golem pic.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Oronis did. He discovered and invented it, which took him 1,000 years, possibly using the format and concept of the Dragon metamorphosis, but applying a more Preserver bent to it - effectively, he altered the Dragon version to make the Avangion. I have it so that he uses artifacts (based off of an idea from Tribe of One) and more psychic energy, plus other means to get around the life-force requirement of the Dragon metamorphosis. I believ e he was assisted by another Preserver, and he was (unwittingly or not) guided by a Pyreen (ie: druid). Yes, this makes a continuity issue with the legends of the Kreen Nation and the Avangion that ruled over them. However, I have that covered, in detail in another thread, the Inconsistancy thread called "the Great What?".
Perhaps the Creature Refered to as the Avagion that ruled the Kreen nation is some Template that can be applied to a Kreen Chracter after he has Advanced so far in his live(Epic levels). The Kreen Have an Incredibal Psionic Powers, and their Race seams to be evolved with the Use of Psionics as a Whats molded their Creation (Kinda put forth in the Adventure with the Order, where the Kreen are Driven insane at the Lose of Psionics).
Maybe a Kreen Who has advanced to Epic Psionic Levels and powers may eventually Evolve in to a Creature Simmiler to a Avaigon.... They are kinda bug like/Butterfly Like.
Originally posted by col_wolfe
Perhaps the Creature Refered to as the Avagion that ruled the Kreen nation is some Template that can be applied to a Kreen Chracter after he has Advanced so far in his live(Epic levels). The Kreen Have an Incredibal Psionic Powers, and their Race seams to be evolved with the Use of Psionics as a Whats molded their Creation (Kinda put forth in the Adventure with the Order, where the Kreen are Driven insane at the Lose of Psionics).
Maybe a Kreen Who has advanced to Epic Psionic Levels and powers may eventually Evolve in to a Creature Simmiler to a Avaigon.... They are kinda bug like/Butterfly Like.
Actually, since you apparently didn't take my hint and find the thread I mentioned, I'll try to explain. Or rather summarize. I believe Oronis is the Avangion from that nation. The Great One is very specifically stated to being a Thri-Kreen Leader along with an Avangion. since Oronis invented the spell (as is explained and alluded to quite clearly in the 2e materials), this caused a problem - solved by looking at what the last stage of development from the 2e Avangion Advanced Being says - they vansih from this realm to wander the outer planes. However, since Athas is blockefd from the Outer Planes, I think this was a misprint, and should have bee through space & time. The Avangion bounces through time during this part of the final metamorphosis, in the hopes to get ideas on how to restore Athas. As such, I think that the Avangion that is in the Kreen Nation found on the Tablelands, is actually Oronis himself, a future version of him that has finished casting the last stage of the metamorphosis and is undergoing this time of "learning".
Making some sort of Template that is for epic Thri-Kreen that makes them look Avangionlike is really quite a contrieved idea. That makes the whole avangion thing seem far weaker, and less important.
they vansih from this realm to wander the outer planes.
If I had to guess, I would say it's probably the Inner Planes. Would make quite a bit more sense.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
If I had to guess, I would say it's probably the Inner Planes. Would make quite a bit more sense.
Not if the Inner Planes are more the privy of the Divine casters. Psionics don't regularly use them - and Wizards tend to not even summon elementals (the Elemental Planes, and the Paraelement of Rain, don't exactly appreciate the wonderous effects that Arcane Magic has blessed Athas with in abundance, so why would they let such, obviously gracious creatures as Wizards, who wield such destructive energies, to cavort around and stroll theough the Planes - even ones such as an Avangion). Don't forget - even an Avangion is still a Wizard - and wizards, as a rule, aren't generally trusted by the elemental powers, or even Druid-kind. Oronis is a unique case, since he had the assistance of a Pyreen to help him redeem himself in the past, and that Pyreen still keeps an eye on him, hidden from Oronis' view - I'm sure it's not only as a loving friend concerned for his wellbeing, but also to be ready to kill Oronis if he was to go back on his promises and return to his vile defiling ways, or find some other way to cause great harm.
so, I rule out the Inner Planes, because they don't seem to make sense completely with this. Which leads me to think that they don't leave this plane, but this Time. Time-travel already has precidence in Dark Sun - with the Mind Lords ofthe Last Sea - but they couldn't physically go through time themselves with Psionics alone. Possibly it requires a blending of Psionics (for the mind) and Arcane Magic (for the body) to be sent back through time - something that would be a possibility for an Avangion, but not readily of interest to a Dragon (who tends to be more interested in the power they have now, not what happened in the past). True time-Travel could very well be exclusively the privy of a fully-developed Avangion, something of their unique capability with magic that grants them this power.
You have a valid point on the Inner Planes, though.
Dump the whole Plane thing altogether? Sounds like an idea.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
To be honest, I think time-travel is a creative solution, but not one that I would ever allow in my campaign. Time travel is just one of those things that's WAY too easy to screw up.
You have a valid point on the Inner Planes, though.
Dump the whole Plane thing altogether? Sounds like an idea.
Possibly. and the whole time-traven thing - well, if it's reserved for completely-metamorphosized Avangions, and is not accessable to anyone else, what's the odds that you'd be including one of those in a campaign, and exactly how many are there anyways? I think their sheer rarity keeps that in check, and what they do in the past effectively cannot change the past, because it's already been done before. but, it could make Avangions just that much more powerful in the end - they'd have access to something that Dragons wouldn't.
While I may completely disagree with your advancement system, it's a lot of work to design the characters with so little material to go on. Have you also designed complete equipment lists based on their relative level?
Also, have you worked any on converting the various artifacts of Athas as well? In that vein, you may want to do a write-up on Irikos. I find the relative differences between the Prism Pentad histories and the bits and pieces introduced in various Dark Sun products to be quite interesting. For example, it appears, by what the Book of Artifacts and Psionic Artifacts indicate, that Rajaat initially only had two servants, Irikos and Myron, who were his left and right hands, respectively, who fought against the Preservers when they attempted to stop Rajaat from starting the Cleansing Wars. And that Rajaat gave both his servants magic swords, the Silencer and the Scorcher. And that the Silencer is actually capable of harming Hamanu... perhaps Rajaat wanted to be certain relics existed that could hurt his Champions.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Nice work on your write-ups on the sorcerer-kings and company, xlorepdarkhelm.
Thanks.
While I may completely disagree with your advancement system, it's a lot of work to design the characters with so little material to go on. Have you also designed complete equipment lists based on their relative level?
Why would I need that? Umm.... Equipment lists for Sorcerer-Kings would be... like the very last things I'd ever consider making for them. You know, after rehashing a non-copyright-infringed background and description of them. sorry, but the equipment is not important to me, other than the empowered obsidian orbs and the ziggarauts. As the Artifacts are basicaly converted by Nytcrawlr, I don't see why I'd re-invent the whell for that, his site's got good stuff on that.
Also, have you worked any on converting the various artifacts of Athas as well? In that vein, you may want to do a write-up on Irikos. I find the relative differences between the Prism Pentad histories and the bits and pieces introduced in various Dark Sun products to be quite interesting. For example, it appears, by what the Book of Artifacts and Psionic Artifacts indicate, that Rajaat initially only had two servants, Irikos and Myron, who were his left and right hands, respectively, who fought against the Preservers when they attempted to stop Rajaat from starting the Cleansing Wars. And that Rajaat gave both his servants magic swords, the Silencer and the Scorcher. And that the Silencer is actually capable of harming Hamanu... perhaps Rajaat wanted to be certain relics existed that could hurt his Champions.
Adamantyr
Nope. I'd suggest you check out CrimsonSun.org, Nytcrawlr's site - he's done a LOT of work on the various artifacts and getting them converted, as well as having various articles - like a possible spin on the whole Irikos thing. Also - search for threads that their titles start with "Inconsistancy #", which were started by Dawnstealer - that are efforts to come up with some sort of consensus on many of the prominant inconsistancies riddling the Dark Sun material (prior to the Magazine releases through Dragon and Dungeon, which only compounds this problem tenfold). some cool ideas, all around.
And - Hamanu is a unique case, and my take will be further revealed as I get more details filled in - he's not like the other Champions.... He's special. (Then again, they each are unique in their own way, he's just got some fundamentally different abilities thanks to Rajaat).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Why would I need that? Umm.... Equipment lists for Sorcerer-Kings would be... like the very last things I'd ever consider making for them. You know, after rehashing a non-copyright-infringed background and description of them. sorry, but the equipment is not important to me, other than the empowered obsidian orbs and the ziggarauts. As the Artifacts are basicaly converted by Nytcrawlr, I don't see why I'd re-invent the whell for that, his site's got good stuff on that.
So long as you don't assign them challenge ratings, it's not a problem, but epic level characters's CR's involve their magic item count. Athas may be magic-poor, but there's plenty of psionic items.
Nope. I'd suggest you check out CrimsonSun.org, Nytcrawlr's site - he's done a LOT of work on the various artifacts and getting them converted, as well as having various articles - like a possible spin on the whole Irikos thing. Also - search for threads that their titles start with "Inconsistancy #", which were started by Dawnstealer - that are efforts to come up with some sort of consensus on many of the prominant inconsistancies riddling the Dark Sun material (prior to the Magazine releases through Dragon and Dungeon, which only compounds this problem tenfold). some cool ideas, all around.
I took a look at his site. Decent conversions, but too married to 2E concepts. For example, the Scorcher's ability to ignore armor is the exact same as being Brilliant Energy, with the exception that the blade itself doesn't turn into energy. (A moot point.) Plus since it is an artifact capable of harming a champion (Dregoth, in this instance) then I would boost its enhancement bonus to +6 so qualifies to bypass Epic DR. Of course, the 2E artifacts book always encouraged DM's to come up with their own interpretations, so I wouldn't see any problem with different versions in different campaigns.
And - Hamanu is a unique case, and my take will be further revealed as I get more details filled in - he's not like the other Champions.... He's special. (Then again, they each are unique in their own way, he's just got some fundamentally different abilities thanks to Rajaat).
He's special in that he was a replacement for Myron, and according to Sacha, the Scourge's powers worked backwards on him. Apparently the Scorcher doesn't work on him either. Psionic Artifacts of Athas does note that the Silencer would in fact be able to harm him. Some may dispute this, but to me, it's published, and it makes sense that Rajaat wouldn't want any of his champions to be completely invulnerable.
Of course, you may be going with the Lynn Abbey interpretation, which I don't fully agree with, mostly because she made so many fundamental changes to the storyline and the character it was annoying. I don't flaw the writing, the story on its own would be excellent, it just creates a whole new set of inconsistencies to deal with.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
So long as you don't assign them challenge ratings, it's not a problem, but epic level characters's CR's involve their magic item count. Athas may be magic-poor, but there's plenty of psionic items.
Well, as I said - it would be the last thing I work on. I'm still trying to cknock out LA's and CR's for the Dragon and Avangion metamrophosis templates, as well as the Sorcerer-Monarch and Champion of Rajaat ones. Plus, I have conversions for the other Advanced Beings to work on, which I'm getting closer and closer to a finalized, owrkable solution to them, and to finish the Avangion, and do some maintenence to both the Dragon and Avangion metamorphoses.
And - while Athas is Magic and Metal poor, it really doesn't necessarily apply in the case of the Sorcerer-Kings. technically, you could probably assume that if it's not an Artifact, they probably have it. And if it*is* an Artifact, they are strongly guarding/hoarding it.
I took a look at his site. Decent conversions, but too married to 2E concepts. For example, the Scorcher's ability to ignore armor is the exact same as being Brilliant Energy, with the exception that the blade itself doesn't turn into energy. (A moot point.) Plus since it is an artifact capable of harming a champion (Dregoth, in this instance) then I would boost its enhancement bonus to +6 so qualifies to bypass Epic DR. Of course, the 2E artifacts book always encouraged DM's to come up with their own interpretations, so I wouldn't see any problem with different versions in different campaigns.
Well, he's been kinda out of it, especially since he's in charge of getting the little thing like Monsters released for Athas.org. But, patience is a virtue. I might review them more later.
He's special in that he was a replacement for Myron, and according to Sacha, the Scourge's powers worked backwards on him. Apparently the Scorcher doesn't work on him either. Psionic Artifacts of Athas does note that the Silencer would in fact be able to harm him. Some may dispute this, but to me, it's published, and it makes sense that Rajaat wouldn't want any of his champions to be completely invulnerable.
Of course, you may be going with the Lynn Abbey interpretation, which I don't fully agree with, mostly because she made so many fundamental changes to the storyline and the character it was annoying. I don't flaw the writing, the story on its own would be excellent, it just creates a whole new set of inconsistencies to deal with.
Adamantyr
You complain about Lynn Abbey's book, but quote the Book of Artifacts. Ok, I'm baffled at this, but that's cool. Personally, I don't reject books based on the fact they have inconsistancies (not even the Magazinre articles, there are a couple small ideas I got from them) - I attempt to either find a solution to it, or just disregard them. When you start to eliminate books based on inconsistant information - roleplaying materials or novels, for Dark Sun, you're probably gonna end up with 1 book - which would be whichever book you consider "the Bible" for Dark Sun.. Everything else somehow conflicts with it. And yes, I do use some of what Lynn Abbey had in mind, she did a hell of a lot of research on the subject, and Nytcrawlr had recently posted a file with her notes in it. She wan't given access to all of the game materials - especially those that were being worked on at the time she wrote the novel, so, for the information she *was* able to get, she did wonders.
There is another thread, a recent one, here on the forum which we discuss the effects of Rajaat's swords on Hamanu - silencer is the only one that harms him. The Scorcher and Scourge don't - and the Silencer only really does because it was already LOST. Hamanu's the only one like that - the others can be hurt by them. I also haqve him able to heal the extra damage from a dragon bane weapon instead of being hurt by it - so a +1 Dragonbane Longsword would deal 1d8+1 damage to him, and heal 2d6+2 damage as well. makes them kinda pointless against him, don't you think? I also have him able to effectively recycle arcane spell energy, and then use whatever spell is cast against him, to in turn cast a spell himself, without being affected by the initial spell. I also have him being rajaat's trump card - he's the Final Champion. the one destined to annihilate not only the Trolls, but also Humans and any other Rebirth races left, including the other Champions. and, Rajaat had initiated a unique dragon metamorphosis in him, one that he has no control over, is automatic, and accelerates when he uses arcane magic or steals the life-force of beings he's supposed to kill.
But, now I'm feeling like a broken record again.....
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
You complain about Lynn Abbey's book, but quote the Book of Artifacts. Ok, I'm baffled at this, but that's cool. Personally, I don't reject books based on the fact they have inconsistancies (not even the Magazinre articles, there are a couple small ideas I got from them) - I attempt to either find a solution to it, or just disregard them. When you start to eliminate books based on inconsistant information - roleplaying materials or novels, for Dark Sun, you're probably gonna end up with 1 book - which would be whichever book you consider "the Bible" for Dark Sun.. Everything else somehow conflicts with it.
The Book of Artifacts is a rules book for the game, Lynn Abbey wrote a novel based in the campaign setting. Which one "overrules" the other is always a personal opinion. I personally prefer to mix it together and try and get a better alloy out of it. So I'd take the bits from "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King" that I liked, and leave the rest.
On novels, my opinion is that Troy Denning and the Prism Pentad overrule any other Dark Sun novels, because Troy Denning was one of the principle creators of the setting. And I think the Prism Pentad, more than any set of novels, truly captures the character of Dark Sun as a campaign setting. But that's just my opinion, of course.
And yes, I do use some of what Lynn Abbey had in mind, she did a hell of a lot of research on the subject, and Nytcrawlr had recently posted a file with her notes in it. She wan't given access to all of the game materials - especially those that were being worked on at the time she wrote the novel, so, for the information she *was* able to get, she did wonders.
What, no link to the article? As I said, I don't flaw her or her writing. She definitely made the character her own. It's just unfortuante that at the time, TSR was unconcerned with maintaining consistency in the campaign setting. The problem may be because Athas is a much smaller stage than, say, the Forgotten Realms, where different authors have whole regions to themselves to develop. Lynn obviously decided she would tell her story how she wanted to. Hopefully she got her paycheck for it... that was also the era when TSR started stiffing the writers as well.
Oh well. It's for the players to make what they will of it now. And the nice thing about that is we can do what we want and to heck with Wizards and Paizo if we so choose.
There is another thread, a recent one, here on the forum which we discuss the effects of Rajaat's swords on Hamanu - silencer is the only one that harms him. The Scorcher and Scourge don't - and the Silencer only really does because it was already LOST. Hamanu's the only one like that - the others can be hurt by them. I also haqve him able to heal the extra damage from a dragon bane weapon instead of being hurt by it - so a +1 Dragonbane Longsword would deal 1d8+1 damage to him, and heal 2d6+2 damage as well. makes them kinda pointless against him, don't you think? I also have him able to effectively recycle arcane spell energy, and then use whatever spell is cast against him, to in turn cast a spell himself, without being affected by the initial spell. I also have him being rajaat's trump card - he's the Final Champion. the one destined to annihilate not only the Trolls, but also Humans and any other Rebirth races left, including the other Champions. and, Rajaat had initiated a unique dragon metamorphosis in him, one that he has no control over, is automatic, and accelerates when he uses arcane magic or steals the life-force of beings he's supposed to kill. But, now I'm feeling like a broken record again.....
Ever consider using d20 BESM rules instead? Your job would probably be a lot easier.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
The Book of Artifacts is a rules book for the game, Lynn Abbey wrote a novel based in the campaign setting. Which one "overrules" the other is always a personal opinion. I personally prefer to mix it together and try and get a better alloy out of it. So I'd take the bits from "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King" that I liked, and leave the rest.
I feel the same, and I use the parts that don't conflict, while also usually find...creative means to make explanations to those that do.
On novels, my opinion is that Troy Denning and the Prism Pentad overrule any other Dark Sun novels, because Troy Denning was one of the principle creators of the setting. And I think the Prism Pentad, more than any set of novels, truly captures the character of Dark Sun as a campaign setting. But that's just my opinion, of course.
I agree - the PP should override, if possible. And, curiously enough, when it comes to Hamanu, it doesn't conflict with Rise & Fall - most of the time.
What, no link to the article? As I said, I don't flaw her or her writing. She definitely made the character her own. It's just unfortuante that at the time, TSR was unconcerned with maintaining consistency in the campaign setting. The problem may be because Athas is a much smaller stage than, say, the Forgotten Realms, where different authors have whole regions to themselves to develop. Lynn obviously decided she would tell her story how she wanted to. Hopefully she got her paycheck for it... that was also the era when TSR started stiffing the writers as well.
Oh well. It's for the players to make what they will of it now. And the nice thing about that is we can do what we want and to heck with Wizards and Paizo if we so choose.
Link to the article? Bah. That would require extra effort on my part! :D And I totally agree.
Ever consider using d20 BESM rules instead? Your job would probably be a lot easier.
Never heard of it. Is it something released by Wizards of the Coast? I try not to use 3rd party rules when working on Dark Sun...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Never heard of it. Is it something released by Wizards of the Coast? I try not to use 3rd party rules when working on Dark Sun...
BESM = Big Eyes Small Mouth
It's a system originally designed to be able to allow you to make role-play games of all the japanese animation out there . . . I'm in no way an expert, but apparently there has been a small group that find it's application of the d20 rule set entirely better than the original.
My opinion, if you want to keep the DS feel . . keep you eyes squinty and you mouth enormous.
Kalak, Tyrant of Tyr (21 level Dragon) : AC –3(6);HD 52hp; Mv 12; Thaco 11;#att 1 ;Dmg 10-17; SA and SD Spells 5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/2/1, Psionique PSP : 347, Mthaco 1,MAC 2, Immune to 1st level illusion ; AL NE; S 20, D 20, C 16, I 19, W 18 C 3; Mr 20;
Equipement : Ring of spell turning, Bracer of defense AC 1, Steel Scimetar +1
Psionic power: Science: Intellect fortress, Megakinesis, Disintagrate, Detonate, Kinetic control,Create object,Clairaudience, Complete healing, Teleport, Domination, Mass domination, Mindwreck, Devotion: Animate shadow, Control sound, Control body, Control light, Inertial barrier, Soften, Molecular agitaiton, Mass manipulation, Levitation, Control wind, Send tought, Psychic messenger, ESP, Awe, Identity penetration, All-round vision, Danger sense, Time dilatation, Shadow walk, Blink, Expansion, Body control, Double pain, Mind bar, Psychic crush
Spells: Magic missile (1)*, Tenser floating disk (1)*, Cantrips (1)*, Grease (1)*, Charm person (1)*, Detect invisibility (2)**, ESP (2)*, Mirror Image (2)*, Melf's Acid Arrow (2)*, Dispel magic (3)**, Fly (3)*, Protection from good 3’ radius (3)*, Lightning bolt (3)*, Minor Globe of Invulnerability (4)*, Dimension door (4)*, Stoneskin (4)*, Improved Invisibility(4)**, Cone of fire (5)**, Transmute Rock to Mud (5)**, Transmute Mud to Rock (5)*, Globe of Invulnerability (6)*, Control weather (6)*, Contingency (6)*, Enchant an Item(6)* Teleport Without Error (7)**, Monster Summoning V(7)*, Banissement (7)*, Permanency (8)*, Bigby's Clenched Fist (8)*,Mass charm (8)*, Sunburst (8)*, Time stop (9)*, Power word kill (9)*, Defiler metamorphosis (10)*
Lalali-puy, the Oba of Gulg (21 level Dragon): AC 0(6);HD 68hp; Mv 12; Thaco 11;#att 1 ;Dmg 12-17; SA and SD Spells 5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/2/1, Psionique PSP : 203, Mthaco 2,MAC 1, Immune to fear, charm person, command, friends, hypnotism; AL LE; S 20, D 19, C 15, I 18, W 19 C 20; Mr 20;
Equipement: Agarafi spear +4, Bracer of defense AC 5, Ring of protection +1
Psionic power: Sciences: Aura sight, Precognition, Spirit lore, Telekinesis, Animal affinity, Complete healing, Metamorphosis, Regenerate, Domination, Tower of Iron will, Summon planar energy, Teleport, Devotion: Danger sense, Know direction, Psionic sense, See etheral, See magic, Spirit sense, Awe, Beast mastery, ESP, Inflict pain, Life detection, Blink, Dimension walk, Phase, Spatial distortion, Levitation, Control wind, Control flames, Aging,
Spells: Sleep (1)**, Charm person (1)***,Scare (2)**, Ray of Enfeeblement (2)**, Forget (2)*, Suggestion (3)*, Hold person (3)***, Dispel magic (3)*, Charm monster (4)*, Emotion(4)*, Stoneskin (4)*, Polymorph other (4)*, Chaos (5)*, Domination (5)**, Hold monster (5)**Geas (6)*, Antimagic shell (6)*, Contingency (6)*, Mass suggestion (6)*, Charm plants (7)*, Finger of death (7)*, Power word stun (7)*, Teleport without error (7)*, Mass charm (8)***, Trap the soul (8)*,Meteor swarm (9)*, Foresight (9)*, Prolific forestation(10)*
Abalach-Re, vizir of Raam (21 level Dragon): AC 1(6);HD 75hp; Mv 12; Thaco 11;#att 1 ;Dmg 9-14; SA and SD Spells 5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/2/1, Psionique PSP : 344, Mthaco 1,MAC 2, Immune to 1st-4th level illusion, Immune to fear, charm person, command, friends, hypnotism, forget, hold, ray of enfeeblement, scare ; AL CE; S 20, D 22, C 16, I 22, W 20 C 19; Mr 20;
Psionic power: Science: Disentagrate, Telekinesis, Energy containment, Life draining, Metamorphosis, Domination, Ejection, Mindwreck, Mindlink, Mindwipe, Aura alteration, Psychic surgery, Devotion: Inertial barrier, Levitation, Molecular agitation, Soften, Adrenalin control, Cell adjustment, Ectoplasmic form, Flesh armor, Heightened sense, Mind over body, Aversion, Contact, Conceal tought, Ego whip, ESP, Id insinuation, Invincible foes, Invisibility, Mind bar, Mind thrust, Phobia amplification, Psychic crush, Telepathic projection, Convergence, Mental trance, Psionic sense, Splice
Spells: Alarm (1)*, Charm personn (1)*, Gaze reflection (1)*, Protection from evil (1)*, Blur (2)*, Forget (2)*, Mirror image (2)*, Protection from cantrips (2)*, Wizard lock (2)*, Dispel magic (3)*, Fireball (3)*, Non-detection (3)*, Protection from good 10’ radius (3)*, Protection from normal missile (3)*, Emotion (4)*, Fire shield (4)*, Hallucinary terrain (4)*, Minor globe of invulnerability (4)*, Plant growth (4)*, Avoidance (5)*, Cone of cold (5)*, Domination (5)*, Feeblemind (5)*, Wall of force (5)*, Globe of invulnerability (6)*, Mass suggestion (6)*, Permanent illusion (6)*, Project image (6)*, Finder of death (7)*, Prismatic spray (7)*, Spell turning (7)*, Teleport without error(7)*, Mass charm (8)*, Polymorph (8)*, Prismatic wall (8)*, Symbol (8)*, Energy drain (9)*, Power word kill (9)*, Dome of invulnerability (10)*
. Anyway, just for fun come the 13 Champions of Rajaat & Co.Abalach-Re
Uyness of Waverly, Orc Plague, 5th Champion of Rajaat
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 20 Dex 22 Con 24 Int 22 Wis 20 Cha 21
AC -6 MAC -10 THAC0 8 MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP 406 PSPs 486 MR 0%
Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Andropinis
Albeorn of of Dunswitch, Slayer of Elves, 8th Champion pf Rajaat
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 20 Dex 23 Con 23 Int 22 Wis 20 Cha 22
AC -6 MAC -10 THAC0 8 MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP 406 PSPs 485 MR 0%
Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Borys of Ebe
2nd Butcher of Dwarves, Dragon of Tyr, 13th Champion of Rajaat
30st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (Ftr18/30Psi/30Def/10thDragon/10thChampion) Str 25 Dex 25 Con 25 Int 25 Wis 25 Cha 25 AC -16
MAC -15 THAC0 -10 MTHAC0 -13 AL LE HP 850 PSPs 930 MR 90%Att 5 Move 15Fly45A
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Dregoth of Giustenal
Ravager of Giants, 3rd Champion of Rajaat, The Undead Dragon King
29tt Lvl Champion of Rajaat (Ftr17/29Psi/29Def/9thDragon/9thChampion) Kaishargha
Str 25 Dex 24 Con 25 Int 24 Wis 23 Cha 24(15)
AC -14 MAC -13 THAC0 -8 MTHAC0 -12 AL CE HP 790
PSPs 811 MR 80% Att 5 Move 15Fly18C
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Hamanu Manu of Deche,
2nd Troll-Scorcher, Lion of Urik, Anhillator of Humans, Last Champion of Rajaat
23rd Lvl Champion of Rajaat (Ftr16/23Psi/23Def/3rdDragon/3rdtChampion) Str 24 Dex 22 Con 25 Int 23 Wis 24 Cha 22
AC -10 MAC -14 THAC0 -6 MTHAC0 -6 AL LE HP 500
PSPs 650 MR 20% Att 3 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2
vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Kalid-Ma of Kalidnay
10th Champion of Rajaat
27th Lvl Champion of Rajaat (27Psi/27Def/7thDragon/7thChampion)
Str 24 Dex 22 Con 24 Int 23 Wis 22 Cha 22
AC -9 MAC -12 THAC0 -3 MTHAC0 -10 AL LE HP 670 PSPs 701
MR 60% Att 4 Move 15
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Kalak of Tyr
Tyrann of Tyr,
25th Lvl Dragon (20Psi/20Def/5thDragon) Died as a 5th Lvl Dragon
Str 23 Dex 20 Con 23 Int 23 Wis 22 Cha -3
AC -5 MAC -10 THAC0 7 MTHAC0 -8 AL LE HP 325 PSPs 458
MR 0% Att 3 Move 15
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Lalali-Puy
Inenek, Ogre-Naught, Oba of Gulg, Forest Queen, 11th Champion of Rajaat 23rd Lvl Champion of Rajaat (23Psi/23Def/3rdDragon/3rdChampion)
Str 23 Dex 20 Con 23 Int 21 Wis 23 Cha 23
AC -5 MAC -13 THAC0 -5 MTHAC0 -5 AL NE HP 478
PSPs 578 MR 20% Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Lamb of Gruitinne 1st Butcher of Dwarves, 13th Champion of Rajaat
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 22 Dex 20 Con 24 Int 22 Wis 20 Cha 20
AC -4 MAC -10 THAC0 7 MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP 406 PSPs 486
MR 0% Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Myron of Yorum
1st Troll Scorcher, 4th Champion of Rajaat
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 23 Dex 20 Con 23 Int 21 Wis 20 Cha 20
AC -3 MAC -10 THAC0 6 MTHAC0 -3 AL NE HP 406 PSPs 465
MR 0% Att 2 Move 10
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Nibenay Gallard,
Bane of Gnomes, 6th Champion of Rajaat, Shadow King
24th Lvl Champion of Rajaat (24Psi/24Def/4thDragon/4thChampion)
Str 22 Dex 20 Con 24 Int 25 Wis 25 Cha 21
AC -7 MAC -15 THAC0 4 MTHAC0 -7 AL LE HP 514 PSPs 749
MR 30% Att 2 Move 15
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Pennarin
1st Champion of Rajaat, Destroyer of Cyclops?
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 24 Dex 20 Con 24 Int 21 Wis 20 Cha 22
AC -6 MAC -10 THAC0 5 MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP 408 PSPs 465
MR 0% Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Rajaat The War-Bringer,
The First Sorcerer
30Def/30Pre/30Psi/30Elementalist/30"Dragon/champion"
Str U Dex 25 Con U Int U Wis U Cha 25
AC -20 MAC Special THAC0 -20 MTHAC0 Special AL LE
HP 3000(-100)U PSPs 3000 U MR 99% (70%vs DarkLens) Att 10
Move 45Fly90A
Save: vs. Death/poison S vs. Rod/Staff S vs. Petrification S vs. Breath S Weapon S vs. Spell S
Spell Special
Rajaat is the first Sorcerer he can use all Spells as desired, he knows all Psionics and can use them as desired. He is immune to all mental attacks. He can use also all Spells of the elmental Plane of Water. His Level of advancement and some of his Ability scores are beyond measure. He has a total of 3000 HP and can act normally up to -100 HP, where his Physical Form falls apart (Note he isn´t Dead and can´t be destroyed). His MR is 100%, 90% against Champions and 70% against Spells enchanced by the Dark Lens. He always gets the Saving Throws, against the Dark Lens his Saving Throw is 5. He can use 10 Spells and Psionic Powers in a Round. He has all Powers of a Champion and Dragon, though these are all at x30.
Sacha of Aral
2nd Champion of Rajaat, Curse of Kobolds
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 16(20) Dex 17(23) Con -(23) Int 22 Wis 20 Cha 1(20)
AC 3 MAC -10 THAC0 11(8) MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP106 (406)
PSPs 485 MR 0% Att 2 Move Fly18B(12)
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Sielba of Yaramuke
Sprite Scourge, 7th Champion of Rajaat
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (21Psi/21Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 20 Dex 23 Con 23 Int 22 Wis 21 Cha 23
AC -3 MAC -11 THAC0 8 MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP 406 PSPs 513
MR 0% Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Tectuktitlay
9th Champion of Rajaat, Centaur-Crusher
22nd Lvl Champion of Rajaat (22Psi/22Def/2ndDragon/2ndChampion)
Str 22 Dex 22 Con 24 Int 23 Wis 20 Cha 20
AC -6 MAC -10 THAC0 6 MTHAC0 -5 AL LE HP 442 PSPs 530
MR 10% Att 2 Move 12
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
Wyan of Bodach
12th Champion of Rajaat, Pixie Blight
21st Lvl Champion of Rajaat (20Psi/20Def/1stDragon/1stChampion)
Str 16(20)Dex 17(23)Con 23Int 21 Wis 21 Cha 1(20)
AC 3 MAC -11 THAC0 11(8) MTHAC0 -3 AL LE HP (106)406
PSPs 486 MR 0% Att 2 Move Fly18B(12)
Save: vs. Death/poison 2 vs. Rod/Staff 2 vs. Petrification 2 vs. Breath 2 Weapon 2 vs. Spell 2
I will accept that a dragon and a champion is a different thing.. the latter being given extra immunities, a genocidal talent and compulsion, and perhaps a few other qualities. You could even tack on the templar effect as a champion ability, I recomend it.
And as for Hamannu, well, I don't know if Templates in 3e simply add powers or modify a character.. but I'd say that in Hamannu's case, his race was changed, to that of natural or "true" dragon... as many believe, he need not cast any spell to further his metamorphosis (I personally don't think any of the "champions", had to cast that spell, nor needed to use obsidian spheres to cast 10th level magic, borys did specifically because the spell he cast to seal rajaat required it). I believe Hamannu was also what could be considered a "true" defiler, dealing with being a dragon as a race, hense his ability to absorb races through his eyes of fire, quicker than any other sorceror king, and indeed, which could let him absorb another sorceror king. I also agree with him being a sorceror, rather than a wizard.. but what's wrong with that? He doesn't use magic that much, any ability he wants requires only the right number of ranks in Knowledge : Arcane, along with the right use of limited and wish spells... if you are immortal, don't care if you don't further your metamorphosis, and take a backseat look at magic (not wanting to use it too much since it will further his metamorphosis) Using limited wish and wish to good effect isn't so much of a stretch.. In 2e those spells would age the character, if you're immortal, do you care?? No! I also agree that he was given Sun Magic and either was given or later gained through study Shadow magic, in order to affect the other champions.
And as for Dregoth?? Yes he rocks, however, he gained his life shaping knowledge with which he created the dray, from ancient halfling life shaper info under his city... His affinity in that respect is the same as Rajaats, he learned of the old ways and adapted his magic propperly. We all know the Merlane spells that let you alter base creatures (do an online search or check the dragon magazines). In my campaign, he had those spells, and more advanced ones too.. Even made a psionic artifact to transform the dray.. and later that artifact was used by another (oronis?) to make the Aaracokra. ok, that's a bit off what I was talking about. but sounds cool to me...
Ok, nutshel : Rajaat granted the champions both that status of championness, and dragon advancement... there were other non champions, but they paled in comparison. Hence they got their buts kicked, except for Kalak.
Rajaat champions, get templars, and don't cast spells to advance, they just absorb life.. (they kill/ defile)
Normal Dragon : is a wanna be, uses obsidian orbs, and has a ten spell processs. Really difficult, really long, and very lame..
Why would they share power that they didn't have to?? Lets chaulk it up to smuged history, and put the power with Rajaat, who kept them in line and didn't care how powerful they were. Shall we?
well I share your opinion in most cases. Rajaat giving them spellgranting abilities, differences between champs and other ABs etc., I do because I prefer Lynn Abbeys and Troy Dennings run on Athas, with only 13 Champions.
Though even Champions should need some Obsidian for some Psionic Enchantments, though not for a lame Metamorphosis Spell, remember that Hamanu had a Staff with an Obsidian Orb during the "Crimson Legion" War, maybe the Champs use it so they don't have to use their body to absorb and channel the energy of living beings, which would further their transformation.
since Oronis invented the spell (as is explained and alluded to quite clearly in the 2e materials),
ACTUALLY......this is true, as far as materials published, but in the versions of the Secrets of the Dead Lands (or Dead Lands of Athas, whatever) by Gerald Arthur Lewis, there's a mention in the part 'history of the dead lands' that reads like this (and i freely quote, hope thats alright and allowed)
....The F[our Fo]rces started off the n[ext] day, combini[ng t]he strength of their elements (Earth, Fire, Water, and Air), and used a [pow]erful[ au]gury to contact their lords. I watched in amaze[me]nt as a cloud of silvery ash sprung from the tightly formed circle of priests, forming into an image I will never forget. The picture of a beautiful [being d]raped in ro[bes of] brilliant white app[e]ared. The creature's head wa[s shap]d like an oval, and it's mouth and nose were missing. It's tw[o, o]blong, fro[s]ty-white eyes were the only [thing]s that made me t[hin]k it was a [head ]at all. W[is]dom, peace an[d love ]radiated from it like rays from the crimson [su]n, and I soon kn[ew t]hat we needed t[hi]s being to protect u[s. ]Jel'se'ah used [h]er magics in conjunction with those of the Four Force[s to] divine that the creature we were looking at was hum[an.] "What happened to it?" I wondered aloud. "Co[u]ld that be the form in whic[h hu]mans[ wi]ll evolve into? Is this the result of the Prist[in]e Tower?" I asked (you are aw[ar]e of the powers of the Pristine Towers, correct?). The visages[ of the ]four clerics appeared strange, and then t[h]ey a[ns]wered [my] ques[tions i]n unison. The being was the result of the blend of power magic and the W[a]y. The creature transformed itself i[n]to what we saw before u[s now. I w]as imp[ress]ed.
With research d[one w]ith, the [n]ext m[ont]h was spe[nt prepa]ring for the creation of the spell...
this obviously details some sort of spell the preservers of the old ages were researching as a way to help them stop the onslaught brought by Rajaat and his defiling champions, trying to protect some of the remaining survivors of the cleansing wars in the far off city Kyron (which is now situated in the Dead Lands).
I dont know how this material is being (re)worked by the athas.org crew into fitting with 3/3.5 D&D, but to me personally it sounds like they were the first ones to found the metamorphosis for the avangion (bar maybe Rajaat as he 'found' all preserving and defiling magic)
just my 2 cents
offtopic: glad i finally found some good sources for Dark Sun stuff again after having been out of it for years
