Do you have a document of them all? I'd love to see what you've got...
Edit: Please note, when I mention extra complexity, I don't mean make it more complex for the sake of being complex. I do like simplicity, and to follow a "Keep it Simple, Stupid" policy, however, if, in order to keep the flavor of the setting or some extra realism, I have to use slightly more complex rules, so be it.
Rules changes via Unearthed Arcana (many of which I was devising independently, and UA simply had them completed, so I use them now):
1.Druidic Avenger – I feel that due to the hostile nature of Athas' environment has made the Druids a more dangerous group of individuals, and as such, I feel this works more for them. With the lack of creatures around in a wasteland, it seemed to be one of those things “made” for Dark Sun.
2.Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter (LE & CE) – After much discussion in another thread, I have been warming up to allowing these two variants for Paladins who use the power of the Sorcerer-Kings for their divine magic source. However, they aren't spellcasting-capable, as I explain below. The alignment of the Paladin matches his or her chosen Sorcerer-Kin – LE, CE, or for those of Oronis (and who are stuck in and around New Kurn for many reasons), LG.
3.Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy – as an option, the Brute and/or Druid choses which one to get
4.Wild Shape Variant: Aspect of Nature – this seems to fit more with the Druid, and their following of Spirits of the Land, they gain features from nature, rather than shapeshifting into full animals. Combined with the Druidic Avenger, this could prove to be.... quite intersting.
5.Complex Skill Checks – I just find it very useful, especially for tasks that take more than one round to finish, to have a list of rules provided for my convenience.
6.Character Traits & Character Flaws – I like to punish min/maxers, and tempt them with possibilities. It's amazing to see how quickly a player will screw over their character and make them 2-dimentional rather than one that is filled out, just to get what they feel is the “best” advantage. Then, after they do that, I use their 2-dimentional character's lack of depth against them. Yes, I know, I'm evil.
7.Spelltouched Feats – I honestly was coming up with something similar to this already for a different setting all together. However, it kinda makes sense with Arcane magic to have this, what with the connection to living energy that Arcane Magic has.
8.Weapon Group Feats – This, to me, makes more sense than the current grouping of weapons for D&D. I haven't completely sketched it out, but definitely plan on using it in my games.
9.Additional Favored Class Feat – I simply think this is too cool, and should have been part of the core 3.5e rules.
10.Class Defense Bonus & Armor as Damage Reduction – I don't feel that Armor should make it harder for someone to hit you, but rather your skill and experience should be the direct system for it. As such, rather than an Armor Class, my games have a Defense Bonus, and they get that instead. Also, I have a special case of Damage Reduction, referred to as “Armor Damage Reduction” – that armor and shields have, and Natural Armor also includes. I don't do it half-assed like in the Unearthed Arcana however – whatever the Armor's full AC would be becomes it's DR. This means that you really have to smack someone in order to get through Full Plate, and due to the Dex penalty from Heavy Armors, the heavier stuff actually effectively makes it easier for people to hit you by wearing it, which makes far more sense to me. The case with Touch Attacks, however, is that a Touch Attack ignores the Damage Reduction armor provides, but still has to get past the Defense Bonus – and wearing heavier armors makes it easier for people to touch you (I don't have a “touch AC” equivalent). This does produce a slightly different, and in my opinion, more realistic set of rules regarding being hit, and taking damage in relation to level and armor.
11.Vitality & Wound Points – I love this system, loved it the second I read it in the Star Wars RPG, and have used it in my games. Personally, I like the more gritty, dangerous feel it has, and how a critical hit can literally be deadly. It also means that anyone – of any level – can potentially be taken down in 1 or possibly 2 hits. Plus, for Dark Sun, where magic is so....scarce, it's handy to have most of the damage heal on a hourly, rather than daily basis.
12.Death & Dying – the 0-hitpoint rule. I prefer this over the static negative-hit point setup from D&D.
13.Action Points – I love Force Points from Star Wars, and even more I like the Action Points that are in d20 Modern, which were derived from it. UA has it in there, and to me, it's a nice little bonus to give my players who are running around in my grittier-games anyway.
14.Variable Modifiers & Bell-Curve Rolls – Using this actually had started back with another player of mine who hated the fact that everything in D&D is based off of a single die roll result. Well, UA's Bell Curve roll system works for me on that end, and I think the Variable Modifiers rules helps augment it further, to keep a total variable set-up on the rolls. This does mean that more dice are regularly used in my campaigns, but so far, it's been a really cool method of running the game.
15.Players Roll All The Dice – Well, what can I say, I'm lazy. I just watch every die roll, which must be made out in the open so I can see, and then have them roll the dice. Great for those sessions I forget my dice bag.
16.Magic Ratings – I've included this, as well as the Psionic Ratings (derived from the same system), in order to help reduce the downright annoying penalty a character recieves from multiclassing into or out of a spellcasting or manifesting class. My players LIKE THIS, and it does tend to promote mor unique and interesting combinations of classes. Surprisingly, it doesn't cause much balancing issues (at least not in my games so far).
17.Summon Monster Variants: Individualized Summoning Lists – I usually sit down with my players anyway, and they sketch up what they regularly summon, we get the creatures written up & printed out, so they are handily available in a session when needed. This is called efficient use of time.
18.Spontaneous Metamagic: Combined Daily Uses & Extra Spell Slots – I don't like the limitations that metamagic feats place on spontaneous casters, and this works for my games, and was similar to what I had sketched up already before.
19.Contacts – I always liked the contact rules in Shadowrun, and was glad to see some contact rules for d20 in UA. I use this for characters, as it helps integrate them more into the world.
20.Reputation – Yet another thing that I use to help with characters being recognizable by an NPC.
21.Taint – I use this, in addition I use a rule of extra Taint being incurred when someone defiles, and this score is hidden from my players. I've considered also hiding their reputation scores, and then just using those to help with NPC reactions and the such. I also have taint be reflected in a slide across one's moral alignment (good, neutral or evil).
22.Test-Based Prerequisites – I keep going back and forth on this. Sometimes I think it's cool, other times I think it doesn't mesh correctly with the feel of the game.
23.Alternative Experience Point Progression – I use this only because I already was doing a per-monster XP reward, and my characters were all experiencing a rush of about 1 – 2 levels made a session. This helps control my sessions a bit better, and keeps the progression more along the lines of what a “normal” D&D levelling-rate should be.
Believe it or not, I use all 23 of those variants in my games, along with the following:
Complete Warrior: Variant Paladin & Ranger without spellcasting – I use these, because I feel the number of Spellcasting Classes on Athas should be severely limited and restricted. I make adjustments for the Paladin to account for the LE and CE ones, however haven't come up with rules for this, as I only recently decided to include Paladins at all.
Sorcerers – I permit these in my Dark Sun campaigns now. My reasons are – I make them the decendents of the Sorcerer-Kings, who, after the thousands of years they have been around, have had many generations of offspring. The magical natures of these powerful beings has rubbed off onto their children, basically infusing them with an inherent means to use Arcane Magic. However, they have a schism with Wizards, due to their lack of spellbooks or formal training. There are preserver and defiler Sorcerers in my campaigns, and the average Athasian can't tell the difference between them anyway. And yes, I made the 177th Child of Abalach-Re, the head of the Ramm Veiled Alliance, into a Sorcerer(preserver).
Limited Wishes – This is something a friend of mine, and an awesome DM, had designed for his campaigns, that I have now too. Basically, on each players' birthdays, and on Christmas, I grant them to have one “limited wish” for their character in my games. This can be something as simple as a change to an ability score, some skill points, swapping a feat, or the like. They CAN choose something more grand – like having an ability to detect defilers through a form of sonar-like locator within their mind, but those usually have some nasty side-effects that are thrown in in order to make it balanced. As such, people usually don't go too far out on a limb, unless they don't realize what these balancing factors can be (like, let's say, the eternal enmity and personal hunting of the Character by the Sorcerer-Kings), or are just plain dumb, and deserve what they get. These wishes don't stack, and you cannot have more than one of them at any given time – so no “saving up” several wishes to use on some “uber-character”. It's just another method to soften the blow for my usually far more brutal games.
Point-buy Method – that's the only method I use for characters to be generated. Dice rolls can be flubbed – BAD, especially if a Character is made while not in my presence. By using a strict Point-buy method, I ensure that characters are generated correctly, and it doesn't take much for me to verify the numbers. It may seem like I don't trust my players, but, well, I don't trust my players. Many play the game to be some sort of uber-badass, and disregard the roleplaying in favor of a powergaming approach. This I don't like. Oh, I usually do 30 or 35 points for Dark Sun.
Monks & Soulblades – I don't currently permit these two classes, until I figure out a way to let them be in and still be balanced with the other classes better.
Prestige Classes – I permit any Prestige Class that can fit within the feel of Dark Sun. This is really a case-by-case basis, but I've included Bloodhounds (from Masters of the Wild) and Psychic Weapon Masters (from the Mind's Eye) onto Dark Sun before.
Summoned Monsters - I don't allow any monster that requires the outer planes to be available. I don't allow any SPELL that needs them. I basically have the Outer Planes totally sealed off from Athas - unless you visit Dregoth. Asatral & Etherial are also cut off, however the Gray replaces them in spells/powers. My ectoplasm looks more like a smokey-gray jello than what is presented in the XPH.
Clerics – I do not permit any clerics - either elemental or paraelemental, in my campaigns, to raise, rebuke or control undead. I am working off of the principle that undead are abberations to the natural ourder of things, and thus have no place in nature. And as servants (champions?) of the very components of the natural world, clerics are restricted from doing so. As a reesult, any clerics, regardless of alignment, Turns or Destroys undead. Even those from the Paraelements of Sult, magma and Sun - because while they are at odds with the elements & paraelement of rain, they still are part of the natural world. this also means the "Dance of Decay" (or whatever it's called, don't have the materials out & available at this moment) domain is not used in my games - it simply doesn't exist. My clerics can also be of any alignment, however I stress that Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Rain are more Lawful than Chaotic, due to their adherence to the balance of the natural world and the following of the pact of Earth Air Fire and Water (for the elements). I also stress that Silt, sun and Magma, being more independent and focused on their self-interest and freedom from the strictures of the balance of the natural world - in fact, their determination to unbalance it, makes them aligned more with Chaos than Law. But this is not something that bans clerics from one or another, is just the preference of alignment based on the classes.
Templars – My templars all rebuke/control or turn/destroy undead based on the alignment of their sorcerer-king. so any Templar, regardless of their own alignment, that follows an Evil Sorcerer-King, rebukes/controls undead, and generally tends to raise them. Templars of a good Sorcerer-King (read: Oronis) turn/destroy undead. Templars also tend to be at odds with Clerics and Druids, and I tend to limit players from having both a Templar and a Cleric or Druid in a group - because of the animosity between the organizations. Oronis' templars are the exception to the rule here, and it isn't always necessry, as good roleplaying and a convincing reason to permit them both in a group are acceptable. Also - my Templars cannot be more than 1 alignment shift away from their Sorcerer-King. This means that LE Sorcerer-Kings can have LN, LE, or NE Templars. Chaotic Evil Sorcerer-Kings (Daskinor) have CN, CE, or NE Templars. Lawful good Sorcerer-Kings (Oronis) have LN, LG, or NG Templars.
(note - with my designs for Clerics and Templars in regards to undead - this does tend to make undead be more the privy of Templars and Arcane spellcasters)
Dregoth's alignment – I make him Lawful, not Chaotic. To me, this makes more sense.
Defiler alignments – I do not permit any good defilers. I figure that by virtue of the very act of defiling, whether unwittingly or wittingly, the Defiler is doing something very evil (immoral & wrong) in the world, and due to the sheer volume of times they are defiling, they are evil. This is also reflected in the Taint system, as I reward extra Taint for defiling. Preservers can be any alignment, however. And any preserver who becomes a defiler is no longer good - but odds are they already weren't by that point anyway.
Allegiences – I use the allegience system presented in d20 Modern in place of the alignment system. When I talk about alignment, I mean allegience. I feel it is more flexible, and overall more benefitial in a game than a strict 9-setting alignment system.
Session & Campaign Experience – on top of the XP system modifications in UA, I also assign a group XP value per session, completed mission, or completed adventure in a campaign, based on a variety of factors, using the XP reward guidelines from the original Star Wars RPG released by Wizards of the Coast. I've also been known to throw in multipliers to parts of the XP rewarded based on how repetetive the characters have been doing things - stuff that's new and exciting to do, I reward greater XP, but things that have become routine, provide less XP. this is loosely based off of the reward system/structure from the Rolemaster 2nd Edition XP system (well, the multiplier part).
Magic items/equipment – are virtually unheardof in my Dark Sun campaigns. Characters should be stunned if they find a +1 weapon, and cherish it as much as they would a stack of gold pieces. Magic is very limited in my Dark Sun, as are any items produced by it. However, I have Psionics kind of take it's place, and psionic items are a bit more common - if regulated. There are guards posted at the entryways of each of the city-states with Templars and Sorcerer-Kings in them, that use magical and psionic means to locate such items and confiscate magic items, or what are deemed to be psionic items that are too powerful to be permitted in the city. Sometimes, the psionic items are available to be returned when the characters leave, but magical items are strictly forbidden and are taken permanently. spells and items that help repel and resist detection, as well as good slight of hand & disguise checks help keep this from happening, however the players have to ACTIVELY TELL ME THEY DO THIS, or else they will tend to lose their most valuable items and/or possibly get arrested. Usually after the first time this happens to a group, they wise up real fast.
Oh, and people who truely believe they can take on the Sorcerer-Kings, are usually short-lived in my games.
The rules for Dragons, Avangions and other Advanced Beings - while yes, I am making them for my games, they aren't common knowledge in my worlds. The characters know that there was A dragon, but he's supposedly dead now. They don't know that the Sorcerer-Monarchs are all Dragons, or even that Dragon is something that a powerful arcane/psionic character can metamorphosize to via a line of Epic Spells , Templates and Prestige Classes. They have to figure this out through roleplaying. And my groups don't even have a clue what an Avangion is - even if the player does, the character doesn't. and players who mingle their player knowledge with their character knowledge usually find their character getting more and more Taint awarded to that character. Just like powergamers, min/maxers, and other corrupted forms of gaming also get more Taint assigned to them.
All races in my campaign start as wild talents for free, which means that everyone has 2 power points to start with, and can take psionic feats. Everyone also gets an additional free feat, which can be Hidden Talent (XPH) or Talented (DS3), or a "Background" feat, which can be Free Man or Noble. Noble has a prerequisite of Free Man, so in order to be a noble, you must also use one of your normal starting feats for Free Man as well. I'm thinking Free Man and Noble are only able to be taken at character creation - there's no need for them later, as roleplaying covers them. Any character that does not at least have the "Free Man" feat is a slave. Anyone from the city of Tyr MUST take the Free Man feat, as do any Paladins or Templars.
My campaigns all start at level 3, minimum. This way, I can include Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen off the bat without having to deal with Savage Species. All characters start with the level 1 starting money, however. And TK's & HG's don't start with any class levels, only their racial monster HD's.
When I can remember other rules, I'll add them in. But this list should help get you an idea. Many of the rules in UA above, as I've sdaid, were things I had already been including in one form or another, or was orking on nailing down some rules for anyway.
I'm not sure if that's either house rules being posted, or an actual RPG supplement being produced... I'll have to investigate further.
Have you looked at Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty? May be too gritty, and the wounds/vitality allows some survivability.
Originally posted by Heretic Apostate
Someone on EN World was posting about adapting skill chains (or whatever they're called; if you have d20 Modern, it's the extra skills the classes get, on which they tend to use action points; e.g., Strong characters get skills that let them use their strength) to a fantasy environment.
I'm not sure if that's either house rules being posted, or an actual RPG supplement being produced... I'll have to investigate further.
Have you looked at Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty? May be too gritty, and the wounds/vitality allows some survivability.
I like giving my players a true sense of the mortalityof their characters - regardless of level. I never liked the idea that high-level characters are virtually impossible to kill by average means - without another high-level character or group of characters attacking them. A level 1 character still has a chance of killing a level 20 character, by virtue of a critical hit.
At the same time, I don't want a sense of hopelessness for the players - if they feel it's hopeless to continue, then there's no reason for them to play, it's no longer fun, and the game begis to drag.
The blending of d20 Modern into a fantasy setting is in Bad Axe Games' "Grim Tales."
Supposed to be very good. It's out already, but mine's in an order that won't be fulfilled for another month or two.
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88794&highlight=grim+tales
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88502&highlight=grim+tales
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=87102&highlight=grim+tales
Hope that helps.
How do you keep all the optional rules together? I mean in your head and for your games.
I find it hard to introduce even a few optional rules as the group I play with is so used to the standers set down by the PHB.
Now, so far we have not tried to run anything other than a FR or Greyhawk campaign & the way it looks, my group may not be interested in a DS game (the horror!!), so we have not had a lot of experience with optional rules.
How do you introduce them? Have you tried to introduce new rules mid campaign or do you wait for the start of a new one?
That's all my Q's for now
Slingbld~
Originally posted by slingbld
Xlore, your intellect is trully dizzying...
How do you keep all the optional rules together? I mean in your head and for your games.
I find it hard to introduce even a few optional rules as the group I play with is so used to the standers set down by the PHB.
Now, so far we have not tried to run anything other than a FR or Greyhawk campaign & the way it looks, my group may not be interested in a DS game (the horror!!), so we have not had a lot of experience with optional rules.
How do you introduce them? Have you tried to introduce new rules mid campaign or do you wait for the start of a new one?
That's all my Q's for now
Slingbld~
Well, sometimes my players don't like it, but I have introduced variants mid-campaign, sometime it's based off of how the campaigning sessions have gone, sometimes I just like the idea of the variant and want to use it - but I basically follow the Apple philosophy of just switching to it, damn the consiquences. However, most of them I have in place before the campaign begins.
A lot of my changes work together - like the wound/vitality system + defense bonus + armor as DR + reputation - that is from the Star Wars RPG, and moving it across to D&D is not hard. The class changes, I have set up before anyone is one of those classes - or else it doesn't work well - changing a class results in changing the character, and bad juju comes from a character needing a overhaul like that
And most of the time, I just have it all running in my head - heck, I've played RPG campaigns where all of the rules were sorted out in my head, using a system that doesn't have any paper equivalent, and focused on keeping consistancy throughout it.... I'm liking using d20 better than running campaigns like THAT. I also tends to run my campaigns by the seat of my pants - I keep story arcs in mind, and then just let it flow during the session, focusing on keeping the game fun throughout it.
Briefly.
1) All races have ECL. That way I can make all races as powerful as I think they need to be. Burnt World Half-Giants, but most of the others are close to the Dragon article. I didn't include of any of new psionic races (although of course there are thri-kreen)
2) My own armor and materials rules, although they are close to the existing ones.
3) I'm experimenting with DR armor.
4) Templars as spontaneous casters using Charisma and spells going up to 8th level.
5)Druids and clerics comparitively unchanged.
6)Gladiator as an arena melee fighting prestige class.
7)Bard as assassin-like prestige class.
8)New feats (some from Burnt World, others based on 2e Dark Sun like armor optimisation)
9)Defilers and Preservers are both wizards. It is possible to change, but it is hard to become a preserver. Defiling does leave a spiritual "mark".
10) Modifications to how many spells you can memorize and how powerful your spells are based on the terrain you gather energy from. Defilers gain a bonus.
11)Powerful Defiler feats.
12) No paladins or sorcerers. Psionicist take up the cultural place for monks, which I don't feel have the right flavor for Dark Sun (over the top chop-socky). That said, they fit better than paladins or sorcerers.
all races in my campaign start as wild talents for free, which means that everyone has 2 power points to start with, and can take psionic feats. Everyone also gets an additional free feat, which can be Hidden Talent (XPH) or Talented (DS3), or a "Background" feat, which can be Free Man or Noble. Noble has a prerequisite of Free Man, so in order to be a noble, you must also use one of your normal starting feats for Free Man as well. I'm thinking Free Man and Noble are only able to be taken at character creation - there's no need for them later, as roleplaying covers them.
My campaigns all start at level 3, minimum. This way, I can include Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen off the bat without having to deal with Savage Species. All characters start with the level 1 starting money, however. And TK's & HG's don't start with any class levels, only their racial monster HD's.
I do the reputation rulings as a result of roleplay and the consequences of the players actions on the world. less bookkeeping.
I love the rule for beyond 0 hit points, but I instituted something a hair less deadly: if I drop a character below 0 the player dies if he states aloud how far neg he went. Instead, he passes me a note. This keeps the other players from watching the ticker over his head count down and saying they still have time to save him. This has resulted in the healers making more realistic choices during combat.
I keep clerics being able to turn/destroy undead because undead are so far from the natural.
I now use Shenaid's materials rule.
I do not allow evil characters. Some feel this is restricting, and it is, but I don't have nearly as much fun running evil parties. And it is all about me.
I am interested to see how the monk playtesting goes. I have a feeling it's going to be unbalanced, but I want to know how bad and if the disparity could be fixed.
Originally posted by mekillot
xlorepdarkhelm, I like the vast majority of your house rules with just a couple of exceptions:
I do the reputation rulings as a result of roleplay and the consequences of the players actions on the world. less bookkeeping.
I love the rule for beyond 0 hit points, but I instituted something a hair less deadly: if I drop a character below 0 the player dies if he states aloud how far neg he went. Instead, he passes me a note. This keeps the other players from watching the ticker over his head count down and saying they still have time to save him. This has resulted in the healers making more realistic choices during combat.
I now use Shenaid's materials rule.
I do not allow evil characters. Some feel this is restricting, and it is, but I don't have nearly as much fun running evil parties. And it is all about me.
I am interested to see how the monk playtesting goes. I have a feeling it's going to be unbalanced, but I want to know how bad and if the disparity could be fixed.
Interesting. Some people don't like evil characters, and usually, I try to keep a group from having people of opposite moral alignments (if there's good, no evil), but I've played evil characters, and occasionally like to open up entire evil-based campaigns.
Hopefully, in the new campaign I'm setting up, someone will bite and try out the monk class for me. The best playtesting is to actually let them run through a campaign, I say. The only real problem I see with the Monk is their unarmed damage scaling up as they level. Everything else I think is ok. In the same respect, I'm leary about the bonuses that soulblade weapons have, but time and testing will tell.
I haven't completely looked over Shei-nad's materials rules yet. Planning on it soon.
Oh, one question:
I keep clerics being able to turn/destroy undead because undead are so far from the natural.
This differs from my rules, how?
I stay away from the vitality/wounds as well as the class defense bonus. Again, too much bookkeeping.
traits and flaws as well as contacts I treat like reputation: a direct consequence of roleplay. Again, mainly because I don't want to track all that stuff.
I roll the dice for the monsters but let the players roll ability damage on themselves; I love seeing their faces fall when they roll high. I should give letting the players roll the dice all the time a try. Do you have one player roll for all the opponents they face or do you spread them out among the players?
Originally posted by mekillot
sorry about the cleric thing; misread the post.
I stay away from the vitality/wounds as well as the class defense bonus. Again, too much bookkeeping.
It's something I felt was done right in the Star Wars sytem. only slightly more complicated, but I can visualize it in my head without extra bookkeeping on my part. My players all have the stuff added to their character sheets.
traits and flaws as well as contacts I treat like reputation: a direct consequence of roleplay. Again, mainly because I don't want to track all that stuff.
True - I find it fun and mildly entrertaining to torture the minds of the minmaxers tho.... but honestly, it's a give or take thing for me.
I roll the dice for the monsters but let the players roll ability damage on themselves; I love seeing their faces fall when they roll high. I should give letting the players roll the dice all the time a try. Do you have one player roll for all the opponents they face or do you spread them out among the players?
Each rolls the dice for whenever they get sattacked by a creature, or when they are attacking the creature. Basically - the monster rolls are converted from being attacks to being defense checks.