Here's the big points:
1) Preservers can become Avangions. So far as we know, there is only one Avangion spell, so all Avangions are the same (or follow the same path).
2) Defilers may or may not follow the same path. There may be lesser dragons, dragons created by artifact, dragons that go straight through, lesser spells created by true dragons to throw off would-be dragons, and so on.
3) Clerics can become elementals. Can there be lesser paths in this, too, that lead to lesser forms (lesser elementals, elemental beasts, drakes, etc)?
4) Druids can become spirits of the land.
So here's the plan: how detailed do we want to get? Go with the 2e version, where one size fits all, or do we want to get complicated (but more realistic/fun?) with it? We'll worry about the technical (game) aspects after we decide what it is we want.
You could literally write serveral supplements on becoming an advanced being.
Realistically by the time a PC became a advanced being it would be several if not more years of campaign play.
IMO players should never get to become advanced beings like the SK. Its like setting the stage for them to become God's in other non-DS worlds.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
For Cleric-Elementals - I was thinking of a single pattern which they develop, but each of the elements and paraelements have variations at different stages, keeping them more unique, while theyd also keep to following the same pattern. Basically, at certian levels - there will be abilities that each of the elemental/paraelemental clerics select based on their patron, as they become more and more connected with their element, and eventually basically become a manifestation of their elemental plane on Athas - a force of nature itself.
for Spirits of the Land, I was looking at a single process that makes them join a sort of communal consciousness, ascend into a more energy-based being and then gain the powers of a Spirit of the Land - they woud remain unique individuals, but would have a sort of communal existence with other Druids who have merged with the same Spirit of the Land - they can draw from each other somewhat (a sort of collection of shared abilities) while also being themselves - they gain a few interesting powers as well. I was working off the idea that the MM2 Spirit of the Land would be what the original Spirit of the Land may have been, but after the pact of Earth-Air-Fire-Water they are able to grant spells to druids, as well as the druids can effectively join with them, making the Spirit of the Land more and more powerful over time.
Now, I dunno if my Clerics and Druids will be the same 4-stage process that the Avangions and Dragons are, or will take a decidedly different route. but I'm considering various ideas on it, and am always open to suggstios, with the caveat that understand some of the suggestions given/provided I will have most likely already reviewed and either accepted or rejected for various reasons.
With Dragons I'm also going to provide a sort of PrC for stage-4 dragons to keep developing, based on the rules presented in the Epic Level Handbook for the progression of Epic/Advanced Dragons - their age category increases, damage, breath weapon, etc. increases as well. I already feel that while Borys was rushed, he had taken several levels of this, which helps compensate for the physical loss in stature he would have had by rushing, making him a fairly large-sized Dragon by the time of the events in the Prism Pentad.
Due to the naturee of the similarities I want/envision between Dragon and Avangion changes/metamorphosis processes, I'll also probably do something similar for Avangions as well, but as there are no Stage-4 Avangions at this point in the game, I don't feel an absolute need for it.
Originally posted by Sysane
As much as I'd hate to say it, I'd go with the simple method.
You could literally write serveral supplements on becoming an advanced being.
Realistically by the time a PC became a advanced being it would be several if not more years of campaign play.
IMO players should never get to become advanced beings like the SK. Its like setting the stage for them to become God's in other non-DS worlds.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I tend to agree with you on a lot of different levels, but there are some out there who like the complexity ("freedom?") of multiple choices. In 12 years of GMing this world, I have had a whopping one player actually get all the prerequisites to become an advanced being. Even so, having rules that I could point to (or create NPCs with) would be very useful.
I'll agree - I don't think characters should be able to advance to these creatures freely - I only provide clues to chafracters who actively pursue it through quality roleplaying, and not using direct player knowledge to just simply start the process. The very existence of the processes isn't exactly something that is widespread knowledge - hense the sheer limited numbers of these beasts. Plus the added difficulty of the Sorcerer-Kings tending to monkey-stomp anyone who they consider a threat to their power, and usually long before they really become a threat to them.
With Dragons - you have the Sorcerer-Kings basically keeping the numbers of upstart new Dragons from showing up everywhere - I feel Farcluun is probably very much a paranoid individual, fearing for the day that one of them comes a'knocking. Avangions are limited because only Oronis knows the spell, and he's not willing to tell anyone else about it after the deaths of his two students. Druids are selected by the Spirits of the Land to become part of them, the druid doesn't seek it himself, and cannot find out anything about the process without the intervention of a Spirit of the Land. Clerics - well they have to have domne something quite impressive for the survival/increase of their Element, something so noteworthy that the plane takes notice of them directly, and guides them towards the discovery of the process to become an elemental power. all are limited, and other than those forces I mentioned, nobody has a cluye on Athas about what these processes are, or even that they exist. I'm sure The Order has an idea, but they aren't prone to blurting out information like that. the Mind Lords also might know, but since when do they just simply give away information about things that could harm their precious region or the last sea (or even themselves) without killing the individual for hearing it.
I also believe that it is nice to have the rules there, as a sort of guideline, to generate some of the nastier NPC's on this world. Not only the Sorcerer-Kings, but pitting a group up against a Silt Cleric-Paraelemental could be quite interesting as a Epic encounter. Or for the group of epic defilers (and/or Templars) to run face-to-face against a Spirit of the Land - these could be powerful endgame opponents for one to face - and having the rules desiugned to make them, is helpful, especially if you want to ensure that you use the same rules for each new NPC you potentially make for a campaign to keep consistancy in the mix.
I tend to like a bit more complex rules - only, however, if it applies to fitting within the feel of Dark Sun - and I personally believe tha Advanced Being Ruyles from the 2e AD&D setting were... horribly inadiquite and didn't keep the feel of Dark Sun. They feel like they were hurried, not properly designed, and left a sense of losas overall - they don't seem grand enough. Especially when applied to 3e rules, where there are epic rules, Multiclassing has been redesigned, and you have such things as level 45+ wizards wandering around on other settings that I personally feel should not stand a chance against the Sorcerer-Kings. If the bar is raised on the powers of the greatest-powered and well-known figures of other campaign settings, so to should those of Dark Sun, and even moreso.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
That's more like it. I'd also have something that the end of the process has a lot to do with where you start. So you can become a dragon (or whatever) with, say, 15 levels in Defiler and Psion, would drastically effect what kind of advanced being they would eventually become. Those using shortcuts would likewise be stymied (artifact or no).
I've considered it. Also, with characters taking different base-class combinations, it could result in some bizarre side-effect, like what I feel happened to Daskinor - his Wilder side, with the higher-emotional flux from it, was pushed beyond his limits of control with the metamorphosis process, and made him go insane. so while a Wilder is a possibility, there could be some bizarre side-effects that aren't accounted for if you don't follow the prescribed "wizard/psion" combination for dragons/avangions... or the equivalents in others... The biggest problem for characters with my system, that try to get a head-start and rush head-long into the process before they should, is that they tend to die. There's a nasty fort save that will most likely kill them when they cast the first spell to initiate the process, and for each part later. I'm also thinking of revising my animalistic rampage scenario for Dragons to be based poff the possibility that a character who doesn't rush the process has a much better chance of controlling it, than someone who skips parts of the metamorphosis - because their mind's not ready for that strain, and their willpower isn't strong enough yet.
I think 10 individual templates that represent the stages of the metamorphsis with huge prerequisites to met at each stage is more feasible.
I mean that with no disrespect xlorepdark
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Belaboring a concept that is going to be a behind the scenes NPC bad guy (more than likely) with overly complex rules is kind of a waste of recourses.
-Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
I really enjoyed xlorepdark's version of dragon metamorphsis (and the work he put into it goes without saying), but I think a simpler approach would work better IMHO.
I think 10 individual templates that represent the stages of the metamorphsis with huge prerequisites to met at each stage is more feasible.
I mean that with no disrespect xlorepdark
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
None taken, but I ruled out the 10 templates to actually end up a hell of a lot more complex than what I did - I made a sort of comrpomise between the two - there's 4 templates. the PrC's are more like template-classes than PrC's, in that they continue the changes for the applied template to the character. I made them 10 levels each, because I feel that something epic-level shouldn't be less than 10 levels. I don't think there should be any Epic PrC that's less than 10 levels, period. but that's just me. I had looked very much into making 10 templates, however, with 10 epic spells (one for each) that have thre prerequisites to be met. It's just that such reliance of the Epic Spell system doesn't feel right to me, especially as it really, truely is broken as it stands. Even my Epic Spells aren't really Epic Spells - they are a bastardization I did for them, and I didn't follow any of the ELH rules for creating Epic Spells when I did them. As such, I'm still looking at them to see if they work, or are balanced correctly.
(In my experience, the Epic Spells found in the ELH are inferior to other spells with use of metamagic feats and increased spell capacity. sorry, but it's easier and safer, with more powerful effects to use the increased spell capacity feat along with metamagic feats, than to develop any of the epic spells in that book. And the Increased Spell Capacity feat is very balanced, along with the use of metamagic feats, while the Epic Spells seem to be far too crippling and really have the feel of a half-completed idea.)
Belaboring a concept that is going to be a behind the scenes NPC bad guy (more than likely) with overly complex rules is kind of a waste of recourses.
That's a pretty good point.
Originally posted by Sysane
Belaboring a concept that is going to be a behind the scenes NPC bad guy (more than likely) with overly complex rules is kind of a waste of recourses.
I don't agree on that point.
I'm sure Xlor had a blast (and sweated a lot) making his Dragon rules; no one twisted his arm to do it (that's called and "indian" isn't it?).
As for me I know I had a lot of fun puting stats on Farcluun, perhaps the most uber character most DMs will ever feel inclined to bring into their campaign's forefront. I liked making him, still am liking making him (hey, he's not finished) and will like it in the futur when I'll be designing his little friends and nemesis so they can kick some ass.
My next tries will be Korgunard, Nerad and Amiska. And its going to be fun ;)
My thought, and what I believe is Sysane's thought, is that if there was a simple plug-in system, more people would be likely to use it and understand. Those of us who are more hard-core could use Xlor's design or one of our own that's equally complex, dig?
Have not been posting much out here myself, primarily a lurker. But this is a topic near and dear to my heart.
I have been reading over some of the different versions people have had on the various pages and to be honest I have liked alot of them. Xlor, I really like yours alot. You obviously put alot of thought and effort into it to try and balance out the fluff of the time it takes to transform and the rules to make them something really special. But I have looked at two ways of doing it myself, and have built up the rules for each. (I may be posting them soon, and have sent copies over to athas.org to get opinions, at least of the first version. Mind you the first version was not my fave..... but it is the closest to the old rules in keeping with the feel of the old ten stage.) Here are the basics of what I worked up, I would love to get your opinions all
In both version standard epic spellcasting does not exist, in the first version the only way to cast epic level spells from standard spellcasting is through a new epic feat (psionic spellcasting) in the second version epic spellcasting is a class ability of the advanced being class. (note shadow and grey wizards could learn normal epic spellcasting as they do not pull from the limited energy source normal wizards do, and they do not try to focus the raw elemental might as a cleric/druid does. Templars cannot use their templar spells for epic spellcasting in either version as they pull their energy through an advanced being.)
epic manifesting exists in both as per epic level handbook.
First version:
There is a base advanced being template/prestige class that you level in by casting psionic enchantments once you have aquired the appropriate levels to gain template stages in the advanced being type. (dragon, lesser dragon, avangion, elemental, spirit of the land)
advantages: simple system, easy to look at, easy to aquire as the DCs are pretty much set for the spells. (in my version I had the base DC set but you had to choose your own mitigating factors.)
Disadvantages: does not allow much in the way of customization. a bit fast on the progression into the the higher levels..... a dragon or avangion could easily evolve by 37
playtested and worked okay... not great but okay
Second version:
There is an advanced being prestige class that could be litterally taken as early as 21. (using crebromancer prestige class) This does NOT automatically transform the character into a dragon or such, just gives them greater skill as they advance on casting psionic enchantments and backlas resistance.
Transformation however is done by casting specific psionic enchantments that can be customized (to add more powerful abilities at the cost of a higher DC) to the indivduals taste, to add a series of 10 templates to the character. This means truly powerful dragons and such will wait till they are higher levels to aquire these templates, as they will gather more power. But those who take shortcuts will end up weaker. (as was shown in one of the old 2ed modules where there was a 21st level dragon thats appearance was that of a 24 or 25. And was killed by one of the sorcerer queens.)
Also in addition to the major templates (such as the versions of dragons, avangions, elementals, and spirits of the land) you can add in a socerer monarch template (to grant templar spells but the DC to gain it is astronomical, and was only able to be gained throught the dark lens and the pristine tower in the last time, but with adding a transport seed for time you could link to a vortex) or the champion of Raajat template, etc.. The limit on templates is no more than 1 can be added per level of the advanced being class. (and no more than one major path may be chosen.)
another note templates MUST be added in order. (save for defilers who can skip a step by majorly adding to the DC of the spell.)
oh the paths of defiler metamorph I have built on were: dragon, chimera (mix and match one), Manticore (Hamanu actually), Basilisk, Hydra, Phoenix, naga, and a few other minors (none are truely weaker than the others just focus on different things.)
Advantage: near infinate flexibility, without too much complexity. adds back to the feel of how strong the sorcerer kings are as they would have MANY levels of advanced being just would not have completed the transformations yet. (most likely researching how best to continue for what they want. BTW I see Daskinor as being a psion[telepath] over a wilder...... who has epic manifestation and he has linked in subconsciously to his populace, as this fits on the fluff)
Dsiadvantage: High level creatures are not interchangable which means the GM has to spend some time on each.
Currently playtesting the second set of rules but seems to be working really well.
seker
Have a single transformation process for all the advanced beings, then allow people to take flight with Epic prestige classes available only to advanced beings.
That allows the customization that many people crave, whilst keeping the creation of the rules simple.
I did have another thought: there are multiple ways of "rolling up" a character. You can use 3d6 in order, 4d6 and drop the lowest, the point system.
What if there were different methods of Advanced Being creation. You'd have the vanilla/easy version that Jaanos brought up - a generic system that's "plug-n-play." Then you'd have the next step up (probably something in between that and Xlor's version - something much closer to the original format?). Then Xlor's version, which is necessarily complex. Then you'd have the uber-complex version (for advanced players and GMs only!) that would allow for a great deal of customization, would remain faithful to Dragon Kings, and fill in some of the gaps.
Again, i'd like to nominate this particular version as a good, 'vanilla' starting point for athas.org
www.thornyscrate.com/~gabe/Dragon_Template.html
Jaan
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
An interesting idea, and would allow for customization, but it might be a little too simple.
I did have another thought: there are multiple ways of "rolling up" a character. You can use 3d6 in order, 4d6 and drop the lowest, the point system.
What if there were different methods of Advanced Being creation. You'd have the vanilla/easy version that Jaanos brought up - a generic system that's "plug-n-play." Then you'd have the next step up (probably something in between that and Xlor's version - something much closer to the original format?). Then Xlor's version, which is necessarily complex. Then you'd have the uber-complex version (for advanced players and GMs only!) that would allow for a great deal of customization, would remain faithful to Dragon Kings, and fill in some of the gaps.
just one prestige class for all advanced beings that just heightens epic casting, and you have plug ins (the 10 levels of templates added as epic spells, which I have generic ones for the plug and play verision.) to gain your actual types.
that way if one wants to take extra time on building a more powerful dragon, or more unique elemental, you can ..... it just delays the progression alot.
this also works with the fluff well.
(also would explain how all these upstart dragons are running around in the modules, that are so easily smacked around by pc's and SK's....... they took the shortcut generic paths...... the SK's are customizing)
But should it be enough to honestly compete with the sk's? heck no!
Also like to point out an epic class that seems to have been forgotten:
Elemental clerics that don't transform into elementals....
what are we going to do with them?
Originally posted by seker
(also would explain how all these upstart dragons are running around in the modules, that are so easily smacked around by pc's and SK's....... they took the shortcut generic paths...... the SK's are customizing)
Anyways, yar: I like the idea of one quick and dirty vanilla one. A more complex one, and then possibly one that states: "If you have a degree in advanced physics..."
you all are making me want to post before I finnish playtesting the new stuff.
the system I am testing right now is as the following
has a single prestige class called simply, advanced being.
requires ability to cast 9th level spells (templar do not count for this) and manifest 6th powers (so psy warriors can compete)
plus some minor stuff
when you take you become ageless, the ability to cast epic spells (psionic enchantments) and the ability to choose to transform. (you dont have to, and there are some transformation templates like sorcerer king and champion of raajat that can be added in addtion to a transformation or without one.)
each level you gain caster/manifester level
and at some levels get backlash resistance and lowered cost on epic spells (money and exp wise)
as all epic prestige class there is no limit on the max level on. (and sk's would be pretty up there)
so pretty much it allows for any kind of transformation or none.... all up to the player/gm.
so this would allow for clerics and druids that want to get to epic spells without giving up their humanity. (the base advanced being change is kind like the elan thing from the exp psi handbook)
Make the simple version just that - i mean, there are other dragons running around who HAVEN'T spent milenia transforming, so we have to have a quicker version.
Call it the Baseline.
We then also have to have something that explains the SK's power and differances. That's Xlor's stuff.
Also something else we need to clarify: when they can start the quick and dirty version. I'm a sticker for needing 24 ranks in spellcraft and 24 ranks in psi craft (i.e 20/20) but i've come to the realisation that probably isn't the best way... soooooo.... how about the following requirements to successfully cast the first transformation spell:
*Able to cast 9th level spells
*Able to manifest 5th level powers
*Suceed in a combined spell/psi craft role of 60 (70?) to successfully research and cast the spell.
Modifers to the roll:
* Can take 20
* Has artifact to assist transformation +20
* Tomes of Lore guiding the spell caster +5-10 depending on specificity....
anything else?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Who the hell sprinkled flowers in here? I'm allergic to them, dammit! And why is it so shiny and colorful? And why is my skin wet?!
Anyways, yar: I like the idea of one quick and dirty vanilla one. A more complex one, and then possibly one that states: "If you have a degree in advanced physics..."
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Anyways, yar: I like the idea of one quick and dirty vanilla one. A more complex one, and then possibly one that states: "If you have a degree in advanced physics..."
the single, quick & dirty version is reminiscent to me of the Unearthed Arcana "generic" clases - spellcaster, expert and warrior.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Make the simple version just that - i mean, there are other dragons running around who HAVEN'T spent milenia transforming, so we have to have a quicker version.
They also better have not made it through the full development of the spell - otherwise it would just kinda invalidate the SK's, I'd think.
It doesn't invalidate the Sk's at all, just reinforces that finishing the transformation doesn't mean the end of character development.
it also to my mind, reinforces the need to have epic prestige classes available only to advanced beings Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
They also better have not made it through the full development of the spell - otherwise it would just kinda invalidate the SK's, I'd think.
Originally posted by Jaanos
No, not really. We have precendent for full transformation (making throug the full development of the spell) into a Dragon, both in boyrs and kalak. Two different ways to become a Dragon very quickly. In the case of Boyrs, he went on to earn XP and so on through the ages - i.e, he continued to advanced AFTER he had completed the transformation. As for Kalak, he didn't survive.
It doesn't invalidate the Sk's at all, just reinforces that finishing the transformation doesn't mean the end of character development.
the two cases - one was with the Dark Lens, and unless your campaigning group tends to have one of those in their back pocket, it's really unlikely you're gonna duploicate it. Sorry, it's just not gonna happen. And with Kalak - he only wanted to sacrifce the entire city-state of Tyr to fuel his transformation - yep, this is definitely grounds for making a 10-level PrC here, I mean, everyone's got an entire City-State to waste, right?
And for borys - this is why I'm working on a PrC that will be for Stage-4 Dragons, to keep developing, effectively growing like how Advanced Epic Dragons do from the ELH. He gained levels in that, as well as in other classes, while he was the full Dragon. as a result, yes, he does keep growing. but the metamorphosis process - the very thing that transformed him from human into dragon, that's completed.
My big question to you is this: with my rules, it's possible, for a wizard/psion/cerebmancer to actually start the metamorphosis by level 21 (they do need certian skills high enough and the ability to use epic spellcasting). They then, if they complete the full process, would end at level 51. Exactly how much harder is that than a process that starts at level 40, and ends at level 50? Is 1 freakin level all that big of a deal that it ends your world? And this isn't even counting the possibility of accelerating the development process for them - which could make them possibly be reckless enough to finish the process by level 52 - but would significantly stunt their growth as a result.
Originally posted by Pennarin
And what is everyone's take on the neccessity of something like a Champion template to separate the power level of Dragons and Champion Dragons?
for the sense of Cannonical design, it's best to have a template to show what Rajaat did, another to show what borys did, and then the PrC's and such to show the metamorphosis' effects on it.
However, in following with Lynn Abbeyt's concept of how it worked, you could simply merege the two templates, and then move on from there. It's easier to combine two Templates than it is to filter out the two from a single template, in my book.
I see an intrinsic need to have a single 10-level transformation process, which then, once started, or completed, opens up other possibilities to the advanced being.
You have a different point of view. As for your point about the Dark Lens, there is no reason why a group (pre - PP events) couldn't steal it.
It's not impossible, unlikey yes, impossible, no. As for Kalak, again, nothing to stop a character draining a city - hell, Tyr still has the ziggurat, if somewhat damaged, standing, ready for use.
I think what you are missing her Xlor is this; being a Dragon doesn't mean you are an SK. Being and SK isn't a pre-req for being a Dragon either. The SK's are unique, products of an on-going magical experiment.
NEW Dragons don't have to go down the path the SK's did. They might not even be aware of the animalistic stages, and hence have no aversion to them, or see any need to avoid them.
They may choose not to develop skills and abilities to rule a city, or explore stranger realms of magic and power. The NEW dragons are likely to know only smatterings of information; that a Dragon existed, and it was a powerful defiler. I don't think it's illogical to reach the conclusion that defilers pursuing such knowledge, by thier power-hungary nature, could be likely to want to get to the end-product in a hurry.
As for the SK's, they have an aversion to the transformation process. With the exception of Kalak and Dregoth, they avoid the progression of thier 'condition' but have been expanding thier knowledge and power in other ways for ages.
This to me, isn't a 40 level progression. It's more like a tree with branches. The SK's, because of thier situation (ruling a city, unique interests etc) don't want to activley advacne thier power as a dragon, but want to advance thier power. Hence they are taking levels in other area's (prestige classes unique to thier status as advanced beings). NEW Dragons on the other hand, don't have such aversions, concerns or even knowledge, to them, being a dragon is the ultimate - so they will pursue it agressivley and progress faster down the path of full transformation.
Only when the newly fully transformed Dragon decides to take on a SK, thinking he is more powerful than this measly (but admitably immortal) human (after all, the last dragon took tribute from the SK's) and lies dying at the SK's feet, does the new dragon realise that there were other, longer paths to power...
So as i see it, no need for an extended process - the uniqueness of the SK's is a result of choices, and private pursual of other paths of power. You only need 10 levels of transformation to become a dragon, but many, many more to become as powerful as a SK.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
for the sense of Cannonical design, it's best to have a template to show what Rajaat did, another to show what borys did, and then the PrC's and such to show the metamorphosis' effects on it.
However, in following with Lynn Abbeyt's concept of how it worked, you could simply merege the two templates, and then move on from there. It's easier to combine two Templates than it is to filter out the two from a single template, in my book.
Amen brother.
Come on Jaanos, give it up already.
Your idea isn't all that quicker, 1 to 6 whole levels quicker. Oh no! Alert the masses!
Give the powergaming a rest man.
;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
And what is everyone's take on the neccessity of something like a Champion template to separate the power level of Dragons and Champion Dragons?
10 levels to complete the physical transformation to advacned being. It's the options that becoming an advanced being opens up that is more interesting.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Amen brother.
Come on Jaanos, give it up already.
Your idea isn't all that quicker, 1 to 6 whole levels quicker. Oh no! Alert the masses!
Give the powergaming a rest man.
;)
Originally posted by Jaanos
and i'm not the only contributor to this forum that wants a simpler system: read the thread from the start
I did, and please read what I posted, I said you were the minority not the only one. ;)
I just don't understand how you don't get that your way, and xlorep's way is a difference of a few levels, at most 6 depending on how you first get into the transformation.
Not sure how you also don't see how xlorep's doesn't stop anyone from taking any other class or PrC and fleshing out the character more.
Oh well, guess you'll never see it, and to each their own.
Originally posted by Jaanos
I thinks it's best we agree to disagree Xlor.
Tue enough.
I see an intrinsic need to have a single 10-level transformation process, which then, once started, or completed, opens up other possibilities to the advanced being.
and I feel the need for a long, impressive process that reflects the overall epic and immense change that the metamorphosi represent. I feel a need to stick to the feel of Dark Sun, the flavor of the overall change, and to use the material presented as to the only real dragons and avangion known to exist on Athas - the Sorcerer-Kings.
You have a different point of view. As for your point about the Dark Lens, there is no reason why a group (pre - PP events) couldn't steal it
It's not impossible, unlikey yes, impossible, no. As for Kalak, again, nothing to stop a character draining a city - hell, Tyr still has the ziggurat, if somewhat damaged, standing, ready for use..
True enough. However, that's for the DM to decide, I guess. And yep, nothing stopping them... All theyneed to do is convince the population of tyr to go back to the arena, and sit around as the character then completes the ritual and killss everyone. Heck, it worked flawlessly for old Kalak before, and you know that the heroes of Tyr would just go ahead and let people do that from time to time, to spice things up. Or if you do it from pre-PP, Kalak just let's anyone go wandering around in his inner sanctums.
I think what you are missing her Xlor is this; being a Dragon doesn't mean you are an SK. Being and SK isn't a pre-req for being a Dragon either. The SK's are unique, products of an on-going magical experiment.
Ok, show me WHERE I say, or even imply, that the prerequisite for being a Dragon is being a SK, or that being a Dragon Means you are an SK. If you think that, you obviously have not breen paying attention. I used ideas garnered from the SK's, because they are obvious representations of the metamorphosis - but I've never had that be a requirement for the process. I do believe that the process MUST take a long time, because the SK's - as you put it, beings who are products of an on-going magical expirament, and who are most likely the most powerful arcane magic users on the face of Athas (short of Rajaat, but he's elsewhere at the moment), couldn't solve this dilemma? Even they don't know how the process works - and it's been shown just that through various references, and examples through the Timeline. Now, if the most powerful magical beings on Athas can't figure it out, what makes you think that Joe-blow off the street could?
NEW Dragons don't have to go down the path the SK's did. They might not even be aware of the animalistic stages, and hence have no aversion to them, or see any need to avoid them.
Ahh yes. And NEW Dragons would INDEED need a different starting point. What with the Dark Lens sitting in a pool of lava. And my design provides for all kinds of different variations on the theme for Dragons and Avangions to start from. The process is pretty defined, and laid out, but, in the case of the Dragon one, can have adjustments by the caster skipping parts to gain more power and reach the end sooner. Now, what this all has to do with the price of Tea in Eldaaritch, I dunno.... Apparently, somehow by making it effectively a 4-spell, 4-template, 30-level, flexible progression has made it rigid and forces everyone to be the same. This, I am baffled on.
They may choose not to develop skills and abilities to rule a city, or explore stranger realms of magic and power. The NEW dragons are likely to know only smatterings of information; that a Dragon existed, and it was a powerful defiler. I don't think it's illogical to reach the conclusion that defilers pursuing such knowledge, by thier power-hungary nature, could be likely to want to get to the end-product in a hurry.
Well, if they are only going off of that, it seems to really lessen the overall quality of Dragons if everyone can say "hey, there was a Dragon. I bet he was a spellcaster at one time, and probably metamorphosized from being a human. since he did that, I bet I can too, so I'll just start now..." and Power-hungry or not, Those who are stupid, would find themselves very dead. Defilers who want to become Dragons better damned well figure out how to HIDE, and HIDE WELL. why ould beings who've been in charge for 2,000 years just let someone rise up in power enough to threaten them? And defilers wanting to get to the end in a hurry - this is why there's the accelerated versions of the spells I made. You can't beat the progression of casting a measly 4 spells and presto, your a stager-4 dragon.
b[]As for the SK's, they have an aversion to the transformation process. With the exception of Kalak and Dregoth, they avoid the progression of thier 'condition' but have been expanding thier knowledge and power in other ways for ages. [/b]
Kalak, Dregoth, Kalid-Ma, Borys.... well.... glad they all keep back on it. And you know, Oronis sure is adverse to getting as much power as he can to restore Athas. Not like it's his total focus and one purpose in life. Yep, so glad he isn't doing that at all. Even with the 1,000 years to redeem and start over as well as develop the spell, there's still a 1,000 year timeframe he's been devoted to it (argueably 500 years, but STILL...) If there's anyone who should have reached the top level of a metamorphosis by now, it would be HIM - sheerly out of the determination he has to redeem himself, and restore Athas. Guilt is a very powerful motivator. And yet - in 2e, he's only level....24? wow, for someone who's determined to set things right, ith a 10-level PrC, he sure is taking his damned sweet time doing it.
This to me, isn't a 40 level progression.
Whould you get over yourself already? I didn't make a 40-level progression. How many ways do I have to explain to you I didn't make a 40-level progression. Last I checked, 3 x 10 = 30, not 40. Unless you're doing some sort of funky new-math.
It's more like a tree with branches. The SK's, because of thier situation (ruling a city, unique interests etc) don't want to activley advacne thier power as a dragon, but want to advance thier power. Hence they are taking levels in other area's (prestige classes unique to thier status as advanced beings). NEW Dragons on the other hand, don't have such aversions, concerns or even knowledge, to them, being a dragon is the ultimate - so they will pursue it agressivley and progress faster down the path of full transformation.
I'm not against this - and the branching idea is cool. But that's a helluva lot more complex than what I provided. It's so much more complex, that my design looks like a friggin walk in the park compared to your suggestion. I provided a single progression design, because there's precedence to do so. Simple as that. I reworked it a bit - and this I think you really don't like, because I'm getting the impression you are a powergamer - you want to have the possibility to reach full dragonhood in a few sessions (comparitively speaking) with as little hassle as possible. Or so your posts seem to suggest. You want a watered-down Dragon process, which would seem to make them be more of a pansy-dragon as a result.
Only when the newly fully transformed Dragon decides to take on a SK, thinking he is more powerful than this measly (but admitably immortal) human (after all, the last dragon took tribute from the SK's) and lies dying at the SK's feet, does the new dragon realise that there were other, longer paths to power...
-So, you want 1 progression for the Sorcerer-Kings, and 1 for everyone else (or several for eveyrone else...) so, you want to make it that to be a Dragon, you have to have the prerequisite of being a Sorcerer-King, or else you are nothing more than a glorified gnat. Yep, that sounds like you should definitely be the one telling me that being a SK shouldn't be a prerequisite for being a Dragon. glad that's all cleared up.
So as i see it, no need for an extended process - the uniqueness of the SK's is a result of choices, and private pursual of other paths of power. You only need 10 levels of transformation to become a dragon, but many, many more to become as powerful as a SK.
And the chices lie in the other things they pick, outside from being a Dragon. The process is elongated, but the experience of the character, the sum of the character's various different classes and feats, outside of becoming a dragon, makes them uniquer. It could even be reflected, with the DM's help, into the very appearance of the Dragon. that's what I have available in my design. did you just skim it, see the prc's, spells and templates, then said F**k this!? And not even bother reading through it all? I'be beginning to think you only skim the stuff, which understandably I write a lot, but then you make unfounded assumptions about my case, and keep tryihg to nail me to them - with absolutely no proof of your arguements against it.
this arguement has just really gone to all kinds of silly, really, as I'm seeing that whatever I say, you read "blah blah blah, several prestige classes, blah blah blah, epic spells, blah blah blah, sorcerer-kings used as reference, blah blah blah, and that's the way it is"
Sorry but needed some shuteye last night
I was going over all your points Xlor and I personally agree with alot of them, and I love your version of the dragon and avangion metamorph. (though I do have some minor issues with some of them, such as how you handled dragon magic and such. As I personnally feel the epic spellcasting just screams psionic enchantments and fits with borys only losing access to his most powerfull spells when the globes were shattered.)
But I also see a point in having a faster path to power for dragons too..... more so than the version you created.
Due to some of this discussion on this post and on similiar threads, I am thinking of revamping my work a bit.
here is my idea:
a core epic prestige class, Imbued (or something like that)
A high level arcane caster (ability to cast 9th level arcane) prestige class, that gives bonuses if you also have high level (ability to mainfest 6th level powers) in a psionic class.
this allows the character to cast psionic enchantments, (epic level spells, but only if they have high enough psionic ability.) and transform themselves. (have 2 categories of transformation, major like dragon or avangion, and minor like sorc king and champion of raajat, or pristine wizard [a arcane caster who does not need psi to cast epic spells.... ie sadira])(1 transformation per level in the prestige class)
have any transformation be either a specific ritual with help (pristine wizard) or be a psionic enchantment (all the rest I listed)
only the first stage of avangion can be taken through a transformation others MUST come from prestige class. Dragons however can do all 10 through the transformation.
Have prestige classes for dragon and avangion. (were they get their minor powers as they level and every 4 they automatically proceed through the next stage of the 10 stages total on their type. This gives the powerhungry but not thinking it through crowd a way to try for alot of physical power quick, but missing out on the most of the other powers....... ie kalak, kalid, Borys, and the dragons in the old modules)
this way they get a choice of advancing as a class feature as most of the sorc kings are or taking a shortcut and having to pay a major price in life, money, and risk, and not even getting anywhere near the full power. (this could also explain how dregoth got through without the animalistic rage...... he went through the levels instead of the quick route borys did...... and for exp he has a gate to other worlds after all.)
let me know what you think...... does this balance out the two sides a little better.... and give us a easier path for characters to follow while still keeping the epic feel of the true dragons and sorcerer kings.
further - the Dragon process is a combination (bastardization?) of Defiling Magic with the augmentation of Psionics - so restricting Dragon magic only to the realm of Magic itself, would be a bit limiting. I had considered (and for a while, had used) metamagic on the fly, but I've since changed it. The structure is still being worked on, but I think the idea of extending the work I did with empowered Obsidian Orbs like I did, or something similar, fits best. I just think I need to review the power levels, to make higher Dragon Magic more enticing, and thus far more in the prospective Dragon's interest to find shortcuts.
The Avangion process, in my mind, cannot be rushed - hence the lack of "skilling" possible. In part, some of this is based on the schism between the amount of XP a Defiler gets compared toa Preserver in 2e, and part of it is based on the idea of the defiling path being easier, more seductive, quicker. However, the Avangion process is a very closely guarded secret of Oronis', so, people would need to somehow get that from him to even begin the process - or would need to discover that avangions even exist, first. Remember - most people don't even realize that the Dragon Kings are dragons - they believe them to be powerful wizards and powrful psionic creatures, in a couple cities, they are worshipped as gods. But the idea that there was more than one Dragon? rediculous. The very concept of a creature that uses Arcane magic and can help with the restoration of Athas - even more ludicrist.
Originally posted by Sysane
I think a guideline is more needed than concete rules.
Belaboring a concept that is going to be a behind the scenes NPC bad guy (more than likely) with overly complex rules is kind of a waste of recourses.
-Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Now seriously, if it was true, then Wizards of the Coast had effectively "wasted resources" on Deities & Demigods - after all, player characters shouldn't be fighting/encountering deities at all, so why go into such detail about how their powers work? Why go into such detail about how Epic Levels work in the Epic Level Handbook? why include some of those rules into the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the contents of those two books' rules into the SRD? that's a god-aweful lot of "wasted resources" for something that an average campaign wouldn't deal with, or for detailing "bad guys" that characters shouldn't even encounter.
I feel making the Advanced Beings rules, and rules dictating the Sorcerer-Kings and the like, fit somewhere between those - Advanced Beings being special Epic rules, while the Sorcerer-Kings themselves being sort of like deities without being truely deities. Even Rajaat should, in my opinion, be reviewed along those lines. and not very campaign is the same - some of them reach to the requisite power levels to possibly encounter such beings, or possibly begin the Advanced Being processes themselves. Having the rules there makes this far easier.
I don't feel that every Epic Character should be some sort of Advanced Being - that's a little contrieved - especially since it's a very selective number of class combinations for such beings. But - every Advanced Being better damned well be an Epic character. as such, the Advanced being rules should augment, or build from the Wpic rules, not replace them, or mape parts of the Epic Rules specific to them only - non-advanced being epic characters shsould still have the same opportunities presented in the Epic Level Handbook, without restricting them because it is "more convienient" to place parts of those rules specifically into the privy of the Advanced Beings. Let individual DM's decide on their campaigns how to do that, don't decide things for them in that case.
Now seriously, if it was true, then Wizards of the Coast had effectively "wasted resources" on Deities & Demigods - after all, player characters shouldn't be fighting/encountering deities at all, so why go into such detail about how their powers work? Why go into such detail about how Epic Levels work in the Epic Level Handbook?
Deities & Demigods doesn't really detail how all those beings became gods with overly complex rules. It was more a guide as to the inner workings of each gods mythos and its followers.
If your perposing a guide that details how SK's are worshipped and their agendas then you have a good comparison to metioning Deities & Demigods. Otherwise it really has very little to do with dragon metamorphsis. Deites & Demigods has the gods stats, not a step by step of how they got to be that way.
I never said that the SK's shouldn't be stat-ed out just no need for overly elaberate rules to explain how they became dragons.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Anyways, it's also likely that Dregoth (who I figure was probably behind the whole dragon-thing) has sprinkled misinformation out there. Of course, defilers would get suspicious if they didn't start turning into something, so it's also likely that Dregoth would put a lesser dragon spell out there. My vote? Drakes or possibly something like So-Uts. The would-be dragon casts their spell, becomes dumber and dumber and eventually turns into a [whatever].
In my ideal setting, I'd have a few spells out there that create a psuedo-dragon, basically a weaker dragon that could never challenge a former Champion. Then there'd be the "Real" Dragon which, as far as I know, there isn't one (even Borys took a shortcut, and all the others were "created" by Rajaat). There would also be a "Champion" Dragon; a special case that was created through the use of Rajaat's magic, the Pristine Tower, and the Dark Lens (not likely to be replicated). Finally, there'd be a Quick-jump Dragon, which has not successfully been pulled off yet (jumping from an earlier step to "30th" level).
Xlor: Yours is pretty good for a Champion Dragon. I might have a different system, but yours works for this argument.
In my opinion, a True Dragon would require a full-blown 20 levels in wizard (or sorcerer) and 20 levels in Psion in order to work. Remember under 2e dual-classing rules (that's for humans, folks) you went all the way up to 20th in one class, then would basically have to start from scratch and work your way up to 20th in the other class, not getting experience if you use the abilities from the previous class. That's really 40 levels of experience, so I'm not sure where the argument against this tactic is coming from. Is it hard? Yup, that's the point. Of course, under the 3e system, you can have a lot more than two classes if you're human, so you could potentially have a True Dragon that has a bit of all the classes mixed in (not likely, but potential).
The Simple Dragon would be a very vanilla spell and would end up with a dragon that, at the highest levels might (might) be able to take a "22nd" level True or Champion Dragon.
I was making a base epic prestige class that allows you to start transformations, and after starting on this class only dragon had shortcuts you could take without going through a seperate racially specific prestige class. (that would take 36 levels to complete without shortcuts...... explains why there are no full avangions there)
but this base epic prestige class is also the basis for sorcerer king and champion of raajat. So that is where the epic spell for dragon transformation comes from.
I also was thinking of something special for dragon magic, but I was thinking more along the line of researched spells that also require power points that "bend" the rules of what a spell can do at a specific level. (like a 3rd level spell that allows you to send a copy of your head all the way out to your army as a semi corpreal illusion that acts like a project image spell for spells/powers)
I agree that not all epics should become advanced beings.... that is special..... I do however feel epic spellcasting should be limited to advanced beings or those who have special power sources for the following reasons.
„h The plant life used by preservers and defilers is not a strong enough power source on its own to power epic spellcasting. For this reason preservers and defilers must use psionic power to be able to harness both plant and animal life energy to cast spells of this magnitude.
„h The power of the elemental planes has more than enough energy to power epic spells, but the mortal frame is too frail to control. So Cleric need to transform their very bodies to be able to harness more energy.
„h Druids however have to link themselves to an existing Spirit of the Land to be able to focus enough energy to power epic spells, and in doing so forever join with the land itself.
„h Templars draw their power from a Sorcerer King. (Or Queen) Thus, they are only able to cast what their monarch feeds to them. This is why templars cannot cast epic level spells at all.
just a quick set of ideas, I will post more when I get home.
still curious as to what people thought of my idea on another way to do the advanced beings
Originally posted by Sysane
Deities & Demigods doesn't really detail how all those beings became gods with overly complex rules. It was more a guide as to the inner workings of each gods mythos and its followers.
If your perposing a guide that details how SK's are worshipped and their agendas then you have a good comparison to metioning Deities & Demigods. Otherwise it really has very little to do with dragon metamorphsis. Deites & Demigods has the gods stats, not a step by step of how they got to be that way.
I never said that the SK's shouldn't be stat-ed out just no need for overly elaberate rules to explain how they became dragons.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
You didn't apparently understand the connection I made there. The Gods of other worlds aren't undergoing some massive metamorphosis into some other type of creature. The Sorcerer-Kings on Athas are. So, while no - Deities and Demigods doesn't go through the massive complex rules for a metamorphosis - it does have complex rules for dealing with the generation/creation of a Deity however, and what's the odds that a standard adventuring party would go up against a Greater Deity - honestly? So, rather than detailing something like Divine Ranks, Salient Divine Abilities and the like, we're working with a Metamorphosis and Templates. your arguement about complex rules for making, essentially bad guys that a group wouldn't encounter anyway, is invalidated because it's the same thing with Deities and Demigods.
And the overly elaborate rules are ALSO for players who can achieve the beginnings of the metamorphosis - so, unlike deities - where you have to have some sort of divine intervention to get Divine Rank, a mortal can work towards eventually starting and undertaking the metamorphosis processes, just as the Sorcerer-Kings do. Anything less would cheapen it, in my opinion.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Then there'd be the "Real" Dragon which, as far as I know, there isn't one (even Borys took a shortcut, and all the others were "created" by Rajaat).
Oh, I'm sure there will be one soon enough. ;)
And the overly elaborate rules are ALSO for players who can achieve the beginnings of the metamorphosis - so, unlike deities - where you have to have some sort of divine intervention to get Divine Rank, a mortal can work towards eventually starting and undertaking the metamorphosis processes, just as the Sorcerer-Kings do. Anything less would cheapen it, in my opinion.
Your right , thats YOUR opinion. I think most are in the line of thinking of a stream lined metamorphsis rules set. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time). And as far as Deities & Demigods goes I would deem those rules as overly elaborate as well. I don't think those machanics are very usable and are kind of clunky. But then again, thats just my opinion
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
Your right , thats YOUR opinion. I think most are in the line of thinking of a stream lined metamorphsis rules set. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time). And as far as Deities & Demigods goes I would deem those rules as overly elaborate as well. I don't think those machanics are very usable and are kind of clunky. But then again, thats just my opinion
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Well, basing it off of the sheer interest in my rules, and the number of people who really like them, and think I did it right, I'd say that it's at least somewhere around 50/50. With roughly about half of the people liking my system the way it works, and half wanting something "streamlined" as you put it.
And then, you're basically saying that Wizards of the Coast has been wasting their energy releasing Deities and Demigods, then going through the trouble of converting it and releasing a gamesystem-only version of it into the SRD - which, other than the XPH and Epic Level Handbook, is all there is in the SRD that's not a Core Rulebook at this time. So, for something that's "wasting energy", they seem pretty damned proud of it, and determined to make sure people can access the rules. I'd say this is a rather stron opinion, which you are entitled to. Personally, I LIKE the rules there, for all kinds of things. As a DM, I feel that the more resources available at hand, the faster I can process what's needed to be done in a campaign. I am not fond of constantly making up new rules for things, especially things that could be repeated, and thus new rules would be made, and there would be no sense of continuity between the different versions of the rules I had to decree/create on the spot during a session, from session to session. You, apparently, don't think the same way, or at least, not on the scale or scope I do in this matter.
Well, basing it off of the sheer interest in my rules, and the number of people who really like them, and think I did it right, I'd say that it's at least somewhere around 50/50. With roughly about half of the people liking my system the way it works, and half wanting something "streamlined" as you put it.
Wasn't the point of this thread to come up with this concept? I'm not saying I didn't enjoy your version of the metamorphsis, I just don't think its all that practical. There are good key points to yours just needs to be trimed down.
And then, you're basically saying that Wizards of the Coast has been wasting their energy releasing Deities and Demigods, then going through the trouble of converting it and releasing a gamesystem-only version of it into the SRD - which, other than the XPH and Epic Level Handbook, is all there is in the SRD that's not a Core Rulebook at this time. So, for something that's "wasting energy", they seem pretty damned proud of it, and determined to make sure people can access the rules. I'd say this is a rather stron opinion, which you are entitled to.
Okay, I may have been hasty on insinuating that Deities & Demigods was a waste energy. However, to be honest thats a very small scope of gaming/campaigns. Buliding Gods that is (at least in my campaigns). That and most of the rules are more geared to building an entire religion and mythos.
SK/Dragons are for the most part behind the scenes villians. I don't think most average campaigns will ever reach that level of play to even take one on. In the 7-8 years of my DS game the highest level PC is 15th level and that was thru 2e rules. I don't know, maybe your games are advancement accelerated.
I do feel there needs to be rules/guide lines for the metamorphsis just not a drawn out clunky process. A simple (and by simple I mean in game machanics) system of ritual spells with high prerequisites to gain a series of templates works for most purposes.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Let's start with the "Lesser" Dragon. This one should be possible at lower levels, but the overall power should be REAL low when compared to a "True" Dragon or even a "Quickened" Dragon (any of the champs except maybe Dregoth).
In my opinion, this should be a spell that's out there to throw would-be challengers off; something the SKs deliberately put out there so that none could rise to challenge them. So why would they do this? Here's my reasoning: someone will eventually figure out that the SKs are dragons and that it's possible for a human (or whatever) to become a dragon. Once that link is made, they will begin trying to figure out how (ala Tithian, although he was an extreme case since he had the only two Rajaat-supporting champs helping him out). It's in the SKs' best interest to toss some more disinformation out there, even a spell that makes their competition weaker.
Okay, so here's the prereqs: Knowledge (Magic) 15, Knowledge (Psionics) 15, Ability to cast 8th level spells and 7th level powers, maybe others? So this would probably be a five-step prestige class as opposed to the ten-step a True or Quickened Dragon would have. I'd say that it should also do another thing: turn them into a cirtter that's currently running around Athas (Nightmare Beast?) because, logically, someone must have run into the spell before and cast it.
-Sysane, The Terror of Urik
My write-up has it possible to, with the use of the Cerebmancer Prestige claszs, Wizard and Psion, to effectively start the process at level 21, yoiu know, the level people start to become Epic - other combinations can extend this out to as much as level 30, as you stray from the wizard/psion combination. With 3 10-level PrC's, that is a total of 30 levels to go through the process, and results in a fully-developed dragon or avangion being possible at.... level 51. so.... it starts earlier, and finished 1 whole level later. Honestly, how is strict adherence to the 2e mechanics in any way making this easier than what I provided? Is 1 level enough to complain or stress about? Or is it just that my design is a significant change, and people often abhor change, even sometimes ones for the better?
No, I'm not trying to get on people about it, and I really am getting worn out harping on it, especially since I seem to have to keep stating the exact same arguements over and over as some new face digs up a question I've answered dozens of times. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the mindset is that makes people be so resentful of my Dragon and Avangion designs. Honestly, they aren't all that complicated, until you start dealing with taking short cuts. I'm still working on how to make them simpler - but simpler doesn't equate to being a smaller metamorphosis, to what is the most powerful and impressive transformational Prestige Classes in the D&D system.
Making them anything less than that would be short-changing and "watering down" the epic feel of the processes, in my opinion. And honestly, nobody has apparently seemed fit to bothewr with explaining where I'm wrong about that without pointing to the 2e metamorphosis processes (which also do a great job violating the Dark Sun designs anyway, with Dragons and Avangions having to contact outsiders regularly and go off into the Outer Planes with alarming ease), a process that uses 10 levels, but basically has it that you have to cast a new spell each level - which was their, rather contrieved method of ensuring that you can't just gain XP to make each stage/level.
Making various power levels of the process also seems..... too convienient. And people complain about the fact that the elemental vortexes seem contrieved, a means to ensure only the Sorcerer-Kings can grant templars their spells - but making different metamorphosis processes - lesser, greater, whatever, isn't that exactly the same thing? Have one set of rules for the Sorcerer-Kings, and nobody else can get them.
so a complete Dragon would be.... level 50, right?
Exactly.
Again, all of the current Sorcerer Kings HAD to have been 20th level wizards and 20th level psions under the 2e rules. A human could go Dual Class, meaning they would have to go all the way up to 20th level in one class, then go all the way up to 20th in the other. 40 levels. A half-elf could get around this with multiclassing (they were the only ones unlimited in Defiler and Psionicist in 2e), but I always thought that was crap.
Becoming a dragon should be damn hard and have requisites that are incredibly difficult to achieve. Damn-near impossible. Otherwise, in 2-4,000 years, there would be more than 10 or so running around.
Keep in mind that that is for a TRUE dragon, and I am making a distiction there. I fully agree that there should be a spell that allows transformation earlier with lesser requirements, but the end result is considerably less powerful than someone that jumps through the hoops later (20/20).
I seem to have to keep stating the exact same arguements over and over as some new face digs up a question I've answered dozens of times.
And I'm pretty far from a "new face" on these boards.
I'm curious how, with a plug-in system using pretty much a direct conversion from the 2e system, this is any less of a challenge or takes any significantly less time for a character to complete the process? A direct plug-in would basically somehow mandate 20 levels of wizard and 20 levels of psion, probably along the lines of skill ranks as Dawnstealer has. so, now you are looking at a level 40 character to start the process. Phew, yea, that's a LOT of levels to need just to start it, but that's ok. So, now that you have 40 levels, and then what - 10 levels in the PrC, so a complete Dragon would be.... level 50, right?
I didn't say it shouldn't be challenging to become an advanced being all I said is that it dosen't need a complicated game machanic. I'm not looking to see a fully metamorphed dragon at level 30 believe me.
With a template system a character (and by character I mean NPC) can be gaining levels between each step of the metamorphsis in whatever class they like so long as they meet the prereqs for the next metamorphsis spell. Nice and simple.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
(which also do a great job violating the Dark Sun designs anyway, with Dragons and Avangions having to contact outsiders regularly and go off into the Outer Planes with alarming ease),
I admit that part was a little off base but could easily corrected in a 3.5 update. However I agree that the use of life force should be a part in the Dragon metamorphsis (and maybe the restoration of life for the Avangion) and mass structures being built to harness/focus the rituals energies.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Exactly.
Again, all of the current Sorcerer Kings HAD to have been 20th level wizards and 20th level psions under the 2e rules. A human could go Dual Class, meaning they would have to go all the way up to 20th level in one class, then go all the way up to 20th in the other. 40 levels. A half-elf could get around this with multiclassing (they were the only ones unlimited in Defiler and Psionicist in 2e), but I always thought that was crap.
Becoming a dragon should be damn hard and have requisites that are incredibly difficult to achieve. Damn-near impossible. Otherwise, in 2-4,000 years, there would be more than 10 or so running around.
Keep in mind that that is for a TRUE dragon, and I am making a distiction there. I fully agree that there should be a spell that allows transformation earlier with lesser requirements, but the end result is considerably less powerful than someone that jumps through the hoops later (20/20).
As has been pointed out more than a few times, Multiclassing in 3e does not equate to the same thing as it was in 2e. Converting a dual classed human from 2e to 3e, you use the levels from the first class in their entirety, and you divide the subsiquent class levels by 3. This would mean that a converted 2e character who was a 20 wizard/20 psionicist would be, in 3e terms, a 20 wizard/7 psion, for a total number of levels being 27 (20 + 20/3 = 27). forcing someone to be 20 wizard/20 psion in 3e/3.5e, would be tantamount to requiring Advanced Beings in 2e to being a 20 Wizard/60 psionicist. Now, why would you still want to have them with THAT kind of requirement? It seems like you are punishing the character. So, someone reaches level 20 Wizard, and level 20 Psion, m'kkay? They look at it now - "hmm.... I can become a Dragon/Avangion/whatever, which would be a frustrating 10-level process where I have to research 10 spells, one for each level, for a comparitively weak transformation process, or, I can use the time and resources from doing that, and just keep gaining levels - and become something far more powerful/better in a shorter amount of time, and with far less hassle. Yep, Advanced Beings aren't worth it." And basically, [i]every one of my players who ever looked at it when I did that, said the same basic thing - what's the point of making something like that when the requirements to reach the class, are far greater than the value of the class itself?
Becoming a Dragon, with my design - is damned hard. There's an entire knowledge skill that has to be discovered and developed (knowledge(dragon) or knowledge(avangion), there are a blend of arcane-magic and psionic requirements thrown into it. And the character has to at the very least - become epic level. Powergamers can attempt to rush the process and start earlier than others - however there are fortitude saves they either make or die upon casting each stage of the metamorphosis - and while it is concievably possible that a character could start as early as level 21, it's more likely that the intelligent ones will wait for a few levels to bolder their fort saves a bit. And these are non-roleplaying means of restricting access. Roleplaying ones make it even less likely - because it is not common knowledge to the people of Dark sun that there has ever been more than one dragon. and the Dragon is more of a myth to many people. Even fewer even know that the Dragon is a metamorphosis process, or that such a process even exists. And it's not like those undergoing the process would want to share this process with people, because of the whole self-preservation concept that it's possible revealing this process to people will cause several of them to appear and potentially threaten the current dragons' existences. Look at the trouble the Sorcerer-Kings do to hide their dragon qualities from people - Hamanu hides as a human male, or as a lion/man combination, through powerful magic and psionics. In fact, all of them like to remain human-looking, except for.... was it Nibenay or Andropinis.... whatever, one of them decided to drop the charade, and looked decidedly dragon-like, but as the Dragon is believed to be a myth, most peope just thought him an odd-looking blackened lizard or something.
And - aren't you one of the big fore-runners of the idea that it is a contrieved concept that there can never be any new Sorcerer-Kings because of the situation with the Elemental Vortices? That because when borys used the Dark Lens, they all got linked to living vortices, which are now mysteriously extinct, but have given them something nobody else can get, and thus limits the number of Sorcerer-Kings to only those who fought against Rajaat? Please explain how that is any different than making a "true dragon" and "lesser dragon" metamorphosis - one that is strictly for the Sorcerer-Kings that nobody else can get, while the lesser one is what everyone else gets? Please, you can't have it both ways - if you don't like the idea that there is something that is restructed specifically to the Sorcerer-Kings, then don't repeat the exact same concept, and make a similar distinction with the metamorphosis processes.
And I'm pretty far from a "new face" on these boards.
Nope, but it's usually 95% of the times I repeat it, is for some new face who asks the same questions I've answered dozens of times. You, technically, are bringing up different things.
Originally posted by Sysane
I didn't say it shouldn't be challenging to become an advanced being all I said is that it dosen't need a complicated game machanic. I'm not looking to see a fully metamorphed dragon at level 30 believe me.
With a template system a character (and by character I mean NPC) can be gaining levels between each step of the metamorphsis in whatever class they like so long as they meet the prereqs for the next metamorphsis spell. Nice and simple.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Umm..... ok. so a rewrite of the mechanics to have 10 templates. and how would these be applied - they don't just spontaneously happen, or else you'd need some guiding process - like Experience Levels to direct you, and thus it would become a PrC. So, we use spells/powers - which has a precidence in Darek Sun. Ok, now, since 9th level ones wouldn't work, we'll use (for the sake of arguement), Epic Spellcasting (and Manifesting, if you will). So, now you're having people research and develop.... well.... to stick with the 10-stage concept.... 10 spells in the line. Ok, that's cool. but now someone's researching 10 different spells. I don't know if you realize this - but that's rather complicated, and can potentially take even more time than what I presented. Plus, the very power of these spells - using the Epic Spellcasting rules mechanics, would downright obliterate the chareacter, unless he was somewhere around level 80 or 100 - I know this, because I've already looked this possiblity over, sketched it out, saw the futility of it, and erased it. A reliance on a proken (and yes, it is VERY broken) game mechanic like Epic Spellcasting for it, just doesn't work. And I know it's broken from literally months of playtesting and researching to figure out how to fix the mechanic. Epic Spellcasting is overly complex for no real gain to the user - coinsidering uyou cannot duplicate the effects of lower-powered spells without virtually killing yourself, or setting a Spellcraft DC that's so obnoxiously high, that it isn't something capable of undertaking until level 70.
Anyway, you have 10 spells, and 10 templates, or a total of 20 parts to this progression. I have 4 spells, 4 templates, and 3 Prestige Classes - or 11 parts to the progression. This is what is known as being much simpler. I did a combination of the two - I blended the spell progression design, with the prc design. I divided the 10-level classes for Dragons and Avangions from the 2e material, based off of studying how the changes were described, into 4 groups. The level 1-3 changes were the first group, the level 4-6 changes, were the second group, the level 7-9 changes were the third group, and the level 10 changes were the fourth group. check out Dragon Kings, pages 90 - 91, 103-104; or Defilers & Preservers pages 83, 85-86. You'll see that they are clearly broken into groupings like this - I built off of that. I oritinally had condidered making a 3-level PrC, or template class for each stage - but that seemed inadaquite for the process, as it was being redesigned. So, 5 levels was another possibilty, but I noticed a pattern with the sizr changes, and as I was working on making it possible for all race to undergo this, I found that it came out to 7 - 10 level template classes for each, and keeping the size increases there, which results in there being differences in size based off of your initial race - Half-giants and Halflings would make two, radically different-sized Dragons with all else being the same. The scale difference between the races remains the same. I even wrote in how to include the abnormalities with races like Thri-Kreen who have 4 arms. After showing off my changes like that, which were 3e rules, it was suggested that the PrC's should all become equal-size, and should become 10-level progressions. So, I adjusted them again, stretched a couple a few levels, and presto, my PrC's were developed. Stage-4 was the single anomolous stage, where everything happens at once, so I dropped the very annoying 10-level progression for it, and left it with only the spell and template.
Now, my version accounts for much more than the ones from Defilers and Preservers or Dragon Kings. It keeps the caster within the realms of Dark Sun (no outer plane contacts), allows for the 3e rule concept that all races can become any base class - and extended it to include that all races are accounted for in my metamorphosis. The actual power of my Dragon doesn't really exheed that of the one presented in 2e - in fact, as I've been trying to bring it closer to being in-line with the Dragon rules for 3e D&D all together, it's actually, in some ways, weakened them a little. I added in penalties during the process as well, because I feel the Dragon is kinda unbalancing, and this provides some mocrum of balance to them.
So, I've included some of the 3e dynamics to the design, made the processes less complex than a pure spell/template-based design, and have included elements from both that and a PrC design, into a single, functioning metamorphosis, that also can account for the thirst for power found in Dragons - by even allowing for "acclerated" progressions, which I do know is godawefully complex at this time. It works for PCs as well as for the Sorcerer-Kings, it doesn't take from the flavor of Dark Sun, and makes the metamorphosis truely a great, epic undertaking - not something done lightly.
As has been pointed out more than a few times, Multiclassing in 3e does not equate to the same thing as it was in 2e. Converting a dual classed human...
Yup, I know that. Short answer is this - I think a would-be dragon should have to know how to cast a 9th level spell and use a 9th level power. Period. They're the most powerful beings on the planet, hands down. They're gods. The requirement for becoming a god should at least require them to reach the absolute pinnacle of their classes, in my opinion.
So, someone reaches level 20 Wizard, and level 20 Psion, m'kkay? They look at it now - "hmm.... I can become a Dragon/Avangion/whatever, which would be a frustrating 10-level process where I have to research...
Simple answer is psionic enchantments which are not, in my opinion, epic level spells. I think it was you that said that psionic enchantments should be much more powerful than standard spells, even those of epic level. I completely agree. A 400th level wizard would have access to epic level spells, but would never, never, never be able to cast a psionic enchantment or use "dragon magic" (a limited wish in my campaign).
...far greater than the value of the class itself?
Part of the point of the "True" dragon is to make it worth it. I'll get to that part in a second.
Becoming a Dragon, with my design - is damned hard. There's an entire knowledge skill that has to be discovered and developed (knowledge(dragon) or knowledge(avangion), there are a blend of arcane-magic and psionic requirements thrown into it. And the character has to at the very least - become epic level. Powergamers can attempt to rush the process and start earlier than others - however there are fortitude saves they either make or die upon casting each stage of the metamorphosis...
And as I've pointed out many, many (many) times, I like your design. I like my own, too, though.
Roleplaying ones make it even less likely - because it is not common knowledge to the people of Dark sun that there has ever been more than one dragon. and the Dragon is more of a myth to many people. Even fewer even know that the Dragon is a metamorphosis process...
Sorry, but flawed logic, here. Yes, the information would be protected and very few people would know, but there would be a group of people that would suspect. Take the Veiled Alliance, for instance, ones that know about Korgunard or Oronis - they would suspect (if they weren't told) that the SKs underwent a similar process. The court defiler would certainly know that their king is a defiler, and it's possible that a bored king might let a story slip of the "days when they were human." Knowing that, an inventive or properly sneaky defiler might, just might, put two and two together and think their king had a process for becoming immortal.
...was it Nibenay or Andropinis.... whatever, one of them decided to drop the charade, and looked decidedly dragon-like...
I think it was Nib, but don't quote me.
...peope just thought him an odd-looking blackened lizard or something.
That sounds more than a bit like Lynn Abbey's (non-cloaked) Hamanu description. [I think] he was the only black dragon. Could be wrong, though.
And - aren't you one of the big fore-runners of the idea that it is a contrieved concept that there can never be any new Sorcerer-Kings because of the situation with the Elemental Vortices?
I'll admit that bothers me. I think a "True" dragon and an artifact-created dragon should have a Vortex created as part of their creation. This could be another reason for going through the whole 20/20 process - you can grant spells. How freakin' cool is that?!
Please, you can't have it both ways - if you don't like the idea that there is something that is restructed specifically to the Sorcerer-Kings, then don't repeat the exact same concept, and make a similar distinction with the metamorphosis processes.
I don't recall ever saying that it was a process that should be limited to the SKs. Just trying to mesh what Troy says with what the various (conflicting) sourcebooks say. In my opinion, becoming a real dragon should allow for the granting of spells through an elemental vortex. If you choose the lesser route, you don't gain that ability. Seems like an easy fix. As for it being the "exact same concept," it's not. I said I "Tried to stay loyal to the original version." and so I did. "Tried to stay loyal" and "retyped it with a nifty new font" are two separate things.
Nope, but it's usually 95% of the times I repeat it, is for some new face who asks the same questions I've answered dozens of times. You, technically, are bringing up different things.
Understood, but my point was to maybe tamp that back a little bit. Even newbies have opinions and some might jump in with insight to something us longtooths have discussed at length. It may be the same question, but they might come to a different conclusion from our answer. These conclusion can be interesting (or extremely trying). This community will live or die with the infusion of new ideas, even if they're new ideas built on the concepts of ones that we've talked about over, and over, and over (ad infinitum)...
Keep it coming - your (all of you) analysis of my ideas helps me solidify the process and clean it up. As I've said in a few other posts, my players are partial to the lower to mid levels, so the Dragons and other advanced beings that have cropped up in my campaigns have usually been NPCs. Even so, I do not expect that to always be the case, so making a system that works no matter how they choose to do it, seems like a good idea. I've always thought that there should be several different processes for Dragons, though, as it's unlikely that they ever worked together (as is the nature of evil).
Umm..... ok. so a rewrite of the mechanics to have 10 templates. and how would these be applied - they don't just spontaneously happen, or else you'd need some guiding process - like Experience Levels to direct you, and thus it would become a PrC
Bro, I never said I was looking for a quick way for PCs to become a dragon. As far as I'm concerned they should never become them. I said a SIMPLE mechanic. The way I see the templates are like the age categories of other dragons (i.e. hatchling, wyrm, etc)
Each template making a being stronger than the last. The prereqs I speak of are for the metamorphsis spell not the Template.
Look at it as if it at each casting is a wizard trying become a lich like in other worlds, but each casting making them more powerful than the last (stacking templates).
The guide lines would be the prereqs needed for each casting of the metamorphsis spell (i.e. skill ranks, material components, etc).
Which should take a character years to gather together unless your running a Monty Hall type campaign. The DM should control the advancement of character dragon not the player.
10 spells (essentially the same spell each casting) gaining you a template (yet again essentially the same template) at each casting is easier to keep track of than 4 spells, 4 templates, and 3 PrCs.
-Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I'm realizing that I've switched to a very defensive position, which I'm not proud of with my design - because it's not coming off right. as such, I have to remember to step back, take a deep breath, and basically not jump on everyone who has a different idea, even if I've already researched it for a very long time. So, as such, I'm gonna try to calm down, and take it at face value that some people like my idea, some don't. And just go from there. It's not, after all, like my metamorphosis ideas are in any way, shape, or form, official rules for Dark Sun - they are my ideas. I do tend to be rather picky about what I feel is right for dark Sun, but I really sdhouldn't be trying to thrust that idea down eveyrone else's throat.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
I hear ya Bro. People have differing views. Thats Life
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
sometimes I hjust get too caught up in the moment with my arguements. the funny thing is - I'm rather soft-spoken, and far quieter in RL than I present myself here - I prefer to listen to people, than to keep blurting out my own opinions on everything - especially in the sheer detail and length I get to on these forums.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Nah, your opinions generally are appreciated and you often bring up good points. Sure, you get defensive, but if your ideas weren't worth defending, they wouldn't be worth stating now, would they? You learn the art of defense and constructive criticism early on in the art field. You don't know how many times I've dealt with someone coming up, looking at one of my painting, looking at me, and saying, "That really sucks." There's a big difference between that and someone coming up and saying, "Needs more red." Dig?
Aw, shucks. Why'd you get all mushy like that, Dawnstealer? Here you go:
People disagree with you
People don't like what you've done
People criticize the work
Doesn't mean we are:
Not impressed with your effort
Think you are an idiot.
Are idiots ourselves, or closed minded
Face it mate, some people just don't like what you have done, and, in my opinion, which is just as valid as your or anyone elseâ⁈⁚s on this board, they have good reasons to be. Just because you keep posting, repeating the same points etc doesn't make them right, or make people want to agree with you anymore. Some people don't like revisionism full stop, and some would argue that you are adding to many of your own opinions (re: hammanu, rajaat being semi-divine etc) into the conversions, and perhaps more pointedly, the posts supporting them.
Personally, if your stuff was adopted by athas.org, it's a section I wouldn't use - Iâ⁈⁚d ignore it entirely. Like I, and my players do with the conversion of defilers. Don't let that get you down though, that's what the creative process is.
I don't have as much time as you do Xlor to post and create, that's just my life - and Iâ⁈⁚m really stunned at your efforts in terms of time you spent. I'm a little bit annoyed that you had to attack me personally, but at the end of the day, if that's the way you want to deal with these things, fine.
I've got some holiday leave coming soon, so what I was planning on doing was writing my own conversions. Now, you know very well where I stand - they should be able to cast 9th level spells, and manifest 9th level powers. That's CORE to me, BUT... Iâ⁈⁚m planning to write up a 'base' advanced being, single 10-level one, for a template for all advanced beings, then Iâ⁈⁚m also going to look at maybe a 3 x 5 step process for dragons (low, mid, high), as well as a couple of other concepts I have in my head.
Now, why would I write all these different versions? Because it gives people options - which is what you don't. You constantly re-iterate points that you BELIEVE are true (which doesn't make them true), without giving serious consideration to other people points of view.
I, on the other hand, have demonstrated a willingness to depart from my 'core' beliefs on the topic of dragons (haven't touched avignons you might see as well) in the hope of somehow reconciling the two points of view. If it happens... GREAT! If not... oh well, at least I tried and proved I can compromise.
Anyway, back to the write-ups. The challenge I see is writing a conversion you (the author) don't agree with 100% then seeing feedback on it. Give people options, rather than shutting their opinions down. Writing something you disagree with is harder than writing something you agree with, and helps you challenge your basic assumptions on the topic.
So what Iâ⁈⁚m planning to do, similar to when I write a new curriculum for my undergrad students (I work for a uni here in Australia), is post a few options. Some Iâ⁈⁚ll like, and barrack for, others I don't agree with 100%, but at the end of the day, what I think is important is building consensus, giving options, taking feedback, letting some things go and so forth.
I think enough people have expressed a desire to have at the very least parallel systems of becoming an advanced being for it to be accepted as a valid point express by members of this forum.
Finally, even if those people are a minority (and Iâ⁈⁚d say we are a rather LARGE minority) that doesn't MEAN that the majority are right - history is littered with numerous examples of where the decision enforced by a majority was wrong. But that's politics, and this is game design.
In summary Xlor, what Iâ⁈⁚m going to do (and from reading this thread, I think others as well) Is; rather than attack your system; is to present a valid, viable alternative (yes, it does exist)
Even if you don't see the logic in the conversions I plan, Iâ⁈⁚m sure others will - just like some follow your logic and agree with it. I follow it, but disagree. But that's OK, because my opinion, even though it conflicts with yours, is just as valid.
So, let's see other peoples conversions, and start talking about what we like about them, and the things we think could be tweaked.
Options are good.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
No, I'm not trying to get on people about it, and I really am getting worn out harping on it, especially since I seem to have to keep stating the exact same arguements over and over as some new face digs up a question I've answered dozens of times. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the mindset is that makes people be so resentful of my Dragon and Avangion designs. Honestly, they aren't all that complicated, until you start dealing with taking short cuts. I'm still working on how to make them simpler - but simpler doesn't equate to being a smaller metamorphosis, to what is the most powerful and impressive transformational Prestige Classes in the D&D system.
Making them anything less than that would be short-changing and "watering down" the epic feel of the processes, in my opinion. And honestly, nobody has apparently seemed fit to bothewr with explaining where I'm wrong about that without pointing to the 2e metamorphosis processes (which also do a great job violating the Dark Sun designs anyway, with Dragons and Avangions having to contact outsiders regularly and go off into the Outer Planes with alarming ease), a process that uses 10 levels, but basically has it that you have to cast a new spell each level - which was their, rather contrieved method of ensuring that you can't just gain XP to make each stage/level.
Making various power levels of the process also seems..... too convienient. And people complain about the fact that the elemental vortexes seem contrieved, a means to ensure only the Sorcerer-Kings can grant templars their spells - but making different metamorphosis processes - lesser, greater, whatever, isn't that exactly the same thing? Have one set of rules for the Sorcerer-Kings, and nobody else can get them.
Sysane: You want a simple method, post a sample. I'm not expecting anything that's completely fleshed out, just the general idea. I'll post mine, Xlor's is already posted. Then we'll see what we can do. Hell, we might just come to the conclusion that Xlor's is "it" and stop there, but we'll take a look at other methods for acheiving "dragonhood."
Sysane: You want a simple method, post a sample. I'm not expecting anything that's completely fleshed out, just the general idea. I'll post mine, Xlor's is already posted. Then we'll see what we can do. Hell, we might just come to the conclusion that Xlor's is "it" and stop there, but we'll take a look at other methods for acheiving "dragonhood."
Let me bang out a rough idea out on paper first. Most of this was just thoughts. My ideas for the metamorphsis were mainly along the elements of the 2e version. 10 metamorphsis spell/rituals that required prereqs of minium # skill ranks (i.e. spellcraft) certian high cost materials, life force, and what not.
After the completion of each spell the character now adds a dragon template . Each template would stack with the last either increasing exisiting abilities and powers of the last template or gaining new ones (I'm thinking a chart like they have for dragons and their age catagories in the MM). The character would still be able to gain class levels (most likely arcane or psionic) between each casting of the spell/ritual.
I'm considering on making it less than 10 spell/templates but no less than 7. Like I said. Its in its rough stages.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I have mine fleshed out, but it was aimed at NPCs and not PCs (read: I cheated). I'll do the same thing, although it might not happen before I head to Denver for all of next week.
Yeah, like I stated before. I'm not a big fan of PCs becoming advanced beings. I'm not trying to make available for PCs just to for NPCs.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Hamanu's response?
"Urp!"