Does anyone know of any 2e material that state this clearly, one way or the other? I know of tons of material that gives you the basic assumption that Rajaat created the "metamorph spells" (or at least the principles on which they are founded) but does anything actually say, one way or the other? Thanks for the help in this search.
However, if you believe that Rajaat simply made the Sorcerer Kings into Champions, and they did not become Dragons until they defeated Rajaat (through use of the pristine tower and the Dark Lens), then it's a different process likely made by one of the SKs (Dregoth, if I had to guess).
There's also the third possibility that Rajaat (or one of his Champions) discovered the process of becoming a Dragon and implemented it among the Champs (which would suggest that someone either being Rajaat, or someone who was loyal to him - evil doesn't share on purpose). In this case, it could be just about any of them (including Rajaat), but more than likely Dregoth.
The easy answer is this: no one knows; do what works for your campaign. You'll probably get a lot of answers after this post that will contradict what I say, but that's the long and short of it.
If your player gives you too much crap, or really wants to argue it, toss them in a very dark place where they're likely to be eaten by a grue.
In the timeline of the revised boxed set it states clearly that Rajaat only made them immortal when making them champions and that it was Borys who actually began their transformation into dragons (using the dark lens once Rajaat was defeated) but I maintain that he did it with skills he learned from Rajaat in the first place.
That same timeline, after all, tells of Rajaat telling the champions about the transformation that they may someday undergo and we all know that Rajaat created the dark lense. So it only makes good sense to me that the transformation process (even if not the actual spells) and secrects were discovered by Rajaat. Anyway, just my two cent.
I'd assume that it was either Borys or Dregoth who first became aware as to extent of what Rajaat had done to them and later shared this knowledge with the rest of the champions.
Thats just my take on it though.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by vader42xx
One of my players suggested to me that Rajaat is not directly responsible for the transformation process which creates dragons and avangions. I personally see Rajaat as the one who discovered all the needed secrets that make such transformations possible.
Does anyone know of any 2e material that state this clearly, one way or the other? I know of tons of material that gives you the basic assumption that Rajaat created the "metamorph spells" (or at least the principles on which they are founded) but does anything actually say, one way or the other? Thanks for the help in this search.
The official timeline suggests (you kind of have to extrapolate) that the Dragon Metamorphosis was something Boreys cast on the Sorcerer-Kings after the revolt against Rajaat, and is generally accepted by many as the "official" ruling. Lynn Abbey's novel "Rise & Fall" however, contradicts this.
And that same timeline says that it was Rajaat who told the sorcerer-kings about a further changing process that could make them "gods."
That's why it's my theory that Rajaat came up with the metamorph spells and/or theories but before starting them he just made the champions immortal and gave them a few other minor powers but told them if they did well even more power awaited them (ie: dragon transformation). After all, he wouldn't want to really start them on the dragon process because he planned to kill them later but he did need them to at least be ageless as it would take a long time to carry out his plans.
However it was done, Borys was able to learn the secrets that Rajaat held (either by stealing them, by gaining his trust, or looting the tower upon Rajaat's death [I like the last one best]) and thus, after the champions had defeated Rajaat, Borys was able to actually start the process of dragon transformation using the dark lense. He did this to reward those who had helped him and to convince them to, in turn, use their combined powers to transform him into a full dragon in one fell swoop.
That is my take on how things happened. So, as to the question I originally asked, in my campaign Rajaat is responsible for the discovery of the magic that is used in all advanced transformations (he learned these secrets in all his years of study in the Pristine Tower). How it is used is up to the type of power (preserver, defiler, clerical) the spellcaster provides and the person's temperment (alignment, etc). That's my take on this part of Athasian history.
I'm thinking it was before knowing that he would need them at their most powerful to use the Dark Lens to turn him into a full blown dragon.
I could be wrong on this.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
But, I also have my own theories on how the metamorphosis spell/processes were developed, and who did it, and what Rajaat's part in it all is.....
But, I also have my own theories on how the metamorphosis spell/processes were developed, and who did it, and what Rajaat's part in it all is.....
Well lets hear them :D
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
It always come down to this - all of us have opinions and conjecture, but there's nothing set in stone. Nowhere in any book does it specifically say: "Rajaat made the sorcerer kings dragons" or "Borys made the sorcerer kings dragons." There are implications to both; just put it down as confusion of myth and legend and use what works for you.
Originally posted by Sysane
Well lets hear them :D
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Ok, I've got them in the Dragon/Avangion/Sorcerer-King threads, but I'll put it here too.
Rajaat has some great, time-intensive plans to bring back the Blue Age. he spends literally centuries discovering magic. then, he openly teaches preserver magic to the public, while secretly taking the best students from his preserver schools, and teaches defiler magic to them. He then takes his best defiler students, and individually brings them to the Pristine Tower, infusing them with the power (and hunger/desire) to obliterate an entire race, and makes them each his Champions. He tells them that he wants to bring back the Blue Age, and lead the rightful heirs of the world back to a golden age of life and qulity - he lies, and tells them it will be for the Humans, and Humans alone.
Dregoth was the one who developed/invented the Dragon metamorphosis. He stumbled on some lost Blue-Age artifact, and in his thirst/quest for power made him actually begin to put his war against Giants on hold - he finished securing Giustenal, and then begins developing the new metamorphosis.
Eventually, Rajaat comes to check in on Dregoth who's war has stagnated - Dregoth picks up the fight and sends his army out to continue against the Giants, but is focused on this new power he's developing. Rajaat recognizes that he's doing something that could be useful, so leaves him - for now, while watching to see the development.
Dregoth completes the first spell, and sacrifices a large number of his army to begin the first stage of the metamorphosis - Becoming the first Dragon. Rajaat also steals the metamorphosis process, and reviews it. At the same time, Myron begins to buck against Rajaat's plans, and Rajaat finds Manu of Deche from within Myron's army. A young man, whoo's passion for the eradication of Trolls potentially matchsed that of Rajaat himself. He brings Manu to the Pristine Tower. Reworking the Dragon Metamorphosis and modifying the Champion process he had done to the others, he makes Manu into his Final Champion. Manu's metamorphosis is intertwined with this - Rajaat changed it, and improved it, to fit within his plans. Hamanu kills Myron of Yoram and takes his place. He very efficiently kills off the rest of the Trolls.
Borys and Dregoth cross paths at some point - and somehow, Borys sees the change in Dregoth, and inquires. Dregoth, frustrated, and yet intrigued by a possible willing "guinea pig" to experiment with, reveals the process to Borys, who then uses it to start becoming a Dragon.
Rajaat tells Hamanu that now he is to wipe out the Humans, and the rest of the Rebirth races. If the other Chmpions get in his way, he has the power to kill them as well. Hamanu is the final part of Rajaat's plans for annihilating all the races spewed forth from the Rebirth, his "trump card", so to speak. Hamanu also has noticed that he's physically changing, and has hidden it.
Hamanu, who actually has no qualms or problems with Humanity, disagrees with this, and also sees the madness of Rjaat's plans and desires. He goes to the Champion which he possibly respects the most, or at least has some common connection with - Borys. He reveals Rajaat's plans, and Borys also sees Rjaat's madness. He gathers the other Champions, and they overthrow Rajaat. Seeing that a certian amount of power is required to keep Rajaat locked away, Borys realizes that someone needs to become a fully-developed Dragon. He also sees tht the others need to be Dragons as well, sort of "contingencies" in case something bad happens, and since their master is probably more than a little ticked off at them, this is possible.
He uses the Dark Lens to make the others Dragons - with Dregoth and Hamanu already dragons - this process also ends up connecting them to the living vortices as a side-effect, making them into Sorcerer-Kings. Then, the others use the Dark Lens to change Borys into a full Dragon (Dregoth declines, out of scientific curiosity - he wants to see what the end result of the metamorphosis does to someone). Borys goes mad, and rampages around the tablelands, The others divide uyp the largest cities and take up residence there. Sacha and Wyan - the two Champions disloyal to their bretheren, are given over to Kalak for safe-keeping.
Dregoth, after observing what hppened to Borys, begins to be more studiously aware of the changes in himself, and becomes determined not to fall into some sort of bestial, instinctive fury. He reaches near the end of the process, letting it fully-manifest throughout him without shortcuts, and then is killed before he finishes the final stage spell, but ironically enough, after he would have been suffering the insanity stge borys did - which hints at that the sorcerer-Kings don't even realize how the process really plays out in it's entirety.
Hamanu ends up being a unique individual amongst the others. the "wolf in sheeps clothing" as it were - he can kill the Champions with the same ferocity and power as he did the Trolls. lso ny of the other rebirth races, including Humans. But he is afread of himself. His metamorphosis is automatic. At the very least, every 5 levels he advances, he must take a level of his Dragon metamorphosis. If he uses magic, consumes the life forces of the races he's supposed to vanquish, or basiclly gives into these unnatural urges Rajaat gave him, he becomes one faster. Rjaat most likely anticipated the Animalistic Rampage period, and made it inevitable, and unresistable in Hamanu, so that he'd be forced to finish Rajaat's scheme wheter Hmanu wants to or not. Hamanu's also not prone to letting the others know all these things - soime things, like is apparent immunity to arious weapons and magic, are noticeable, but the other Sorcerer-Kings have no real idea as to what all Hamanu can, and eventually will do. He doesn't have the same templates or metamorphosis process that the rest do. And, he may very well think that the others are also automtically advancing as Dragons - and be unaware that their processes are any different. But, it's not like he wants to inquire, or has any real reason to, about it.
I think I'm stealing this......although, in my campaign, someone else worked out the Dragon Metamorphosis spell independantly - his great-grandfather reverse-engineered Defiling magic from the publically-taught Preserving magic, then he put it together with Psionics and discovered the ultimate end result - a Dragon. Unfortunately, there was a flaw in his calculations, and the spell ended up killing him, and placing a powerful curse on the clay tablets his research had been done on.
The plan is, my poor, innocent PCs are going to be instrumental in bringing this information into Kalak's hands, thus precipitating the events of the Prism Pentad. Kalak gets the research, and thinks he can use them to complete his Dragon metamorphosis, but in the end it leads to his death...
For my games I like to stick more with established history and not bring in lots of theories unless I have to. Keeps things simple and most PCs don't want to get that deep into history anyway. So, like I said, I tend to stick with the timeline and only make the "one step" assumptions.
As for why Borys would create his own competition, I agree with what's already been stated. As the timeline says, Borys helped the Sorcerer-Kings and then they, in turn, helped him. So I think Borys was aware that he would need the extra power that the new Sorcerer-Kings possessed if he were to become a dragon in one ritual. This, along with what I said above, fits the timelines without any changes and it keeps things simple while still offering a rich history for Athas and its original sorcerers.
In Rise & Fall, Rajaat said he didn't create the dark lens. It was there before.
Also in Abbey's explanations, found as a pdf document on Nyt's site, Abbey says that the Black is the dark lens and vice versa. She went metaphysical there, way way over. I liked it. It was intriging.
Anyone read that part?
Originally posted by vader42xx
Very detailed information and theories xlorepdarkhelm, thanks for sharing.
No problem.
For my games I like to stick more with established history and not bring in lots of theories unless I have to. Keeps things simple and most PCs don't want to get that deep into history anyway. So, like I said, I tend to stick with the timeline and only make the "one step" assumptions.
Understood, there are many things in my above post that were the results of several discussions with members of this board over the time I've been here, to find the lowest-common-denominator between the different theories, and then build from there. Things started falling into place then.
As for why Borys would create his own competition, I agree with what's already been stated. As the timeline says, Borys helped the Sorcerer-Kings and then they, in turn, helped him. So I think Borys was aware that he would need the extra power that the new Sorcerer-Kings possessed if he were to become a dragon in one ritual. This, along with what I said above, fits the timelines without any changes and it keeps things simple while still offering a rich history for Athas and its original sorcerers.
It doesn't discount what I said either - Borys basically needed them with extra power in order to become a full dragon, and to help secure the region, and as a possibletactical decision in case something bad was to happen.
Originally posted by Pennarin
I'm trowing some stuff in the forray.
In Rise & Fall, Rajaat said he didn't create the dark lens. It was there before.
Also in Abbey's explanations, found as a pdf document on Nyt's site, Abbey says that the Black is the dark lens and vice versa. She went metaphysical there, way way over. I liked it. It was intriging.
Anyone read that part?
Yes, an interesting idea. Make the Dark Lens into a physical manifestation and/or representation of the Black. And I tend to think that the Dark Lens was something Rajaat found - possibly inside the Pristine Tower, not something he actually created.
That's a failed transformation spell, and only made Rajaat more twisted, both physically and mentally.
Centuries later, Dregoth (and possibly Kalak) find Rajaats notes on the process, or hear him speak about it ... purusue the process and try it on themselves. Being human, and not having an actual goal to transform into (like Rajaat did) it works... at first they think nothing has happened, but it has - they are immortal.
It fits nicely with Lynn Abbey's notes for Rise and Fall of A Dragon King, and also, if you are one of those 'kalak wasn't a true champion' people, explains how he became immortal.
I'd then say Boyrs takes the transformation spell, and figures out the next step, how to apply it to other yada yada.
Anyway, that's my personal creative take on it.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Yes, an interesting idea. Make the Dark Lens into a physical manifestation and/or representation of the Black. And I tend to think that the Dark Lens was something Rajaat found - possibly inside the Pristine Tower, not something he actually created.
Agreed.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83601
Anyone think (in it's final form) that this could be applied to Rajaat?
But, for the record - the God of Magic ability's pretty cool for him
For the record, i think it's a feat that should somehow find it's way into any offical write-up of Rajaat if athas.org ever produces one....
;)