My assumption is that the hugely powerful SKs that have casters on staff must realize some of the following:
1) Although training defilers is a nice way to make the magelings dependant and thoroughly corrupt, it depletes the resources available to the SK. Once the land is defiled it takes years to recover. What SK would be willing to lose available power over the long run for a short term gain?
2) Now that defilers are easily identified they are of no use infiltrating the VA. The SKs would not throw agents away (unless it fit their other schemes). It will take turned preservers to infiltrate, subvert, and eventually turn the VA into tools of the SKs.
So if we agree that the SKs know and support the majority of casters in their realms of influence, it would be in their best interest to train preservers.
Comments?
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
1) Defilers do infact, infiltrate the VA - they use tricks to hide their defiling radius;
2) Sorcerer-Kings don't keep very many defilers under their command - too many of them is generally a bad idea, as Defilers tend to consume the resources needed to keep a city alive;
3) Sorcerer-Kings have alternate means to quicken their spells - like the lives of people and animals.
4) Preservers tend to dislike, and even are prone to hunting down Defilers, especially members of the VA. If you haven't noticed - Sorcerer-Kings are Defilers. I know the VA noticed. Also - the VA would contact new Preservers under the taining of a Sorcerer-King, and point out the flaw in their reality.
5) Sorcerer-Kings very well could still resent Preservers from battles during the Preserver Wars. Well, some of them could.
I had underestimated the personal enmity between the SKs and preservers from the wars. that would definitely have an impact.
I had no idea how the SKs would train preservers, but it seems they might have kept an arch-preserver to as a master instructor.
As for infiltrating the VA- if the taint of defiling is detectable it is not as simple as obscuring the circle of ash during the green test. I'm sure the VA has coopted a druid or two just for the purposes of sniffing out defilers. True, SKs could create magic items to foil this- but that is why the VA has the proposed initiate cast in the nude.
I take your point about not having a huge stable of arcane casters of either bent. But this leads to the question of why the SKs are so bloody inefficient at snuffing out defilers.
Originally posted by mekillot
Good points.
I had underestimated the personal enmity between the SKs and preservers from the wars. that would definitely have an impact.
I had no idea how the SKs would train preservers, but it seems they might have kept an arch-preserver to as a master instructor.
As for infiltrating the VA- if the taint of defiling is detectable it is not as simple as obscuring the circle of ash during the green test. I'm sure the VA has coopted a druid or two just for the purposes of sniffing out defilers. True, SKs could create magic items to foil this- but that is why the VA has the proposed initiate cast in the nude.
I take your point about not having a huge stable of arcane casters of either bent. But this leads to the question of why the SKs are so bloody inefficient at snuffing out defilers.
Well, there's the... Myrmelions (sp?) who do infiltrate the VA on the behest of their Sorcerer-King masters. so, it's possible. They need a lot of tricks to get around many of the problems, but it works. And since the "defiler taint", even from the magazine article version of Defilers, is detectable by Druids, and Druids aren't exactly fond of Arcane Casters of either Defiler or Preserver variant (they tend to assume that all are bad - even the Preservers steal something from nature, and don't forget that every Preserver is a potential Defiler), as such, they aren't prone to helping the VA out. So, using a druid to detect a Defiler, while good in theory, isn't actually something regularly used in practice.
And why are the SK's so damned inefficient - because they are in their cities, and probably have some sort of pact/alliance of sorts that they'd all stay put or else they'd potentially be seen as preparing to attck their neighbors. Defilers have since fled the cities, and tend to live in the wastes, as is presented in the "fluff" for the setting, in various novels, and even setting locations. Defilers sty out of the SK's reach, and the VA's at the same time, and their life expectancy increases significantly.
so I went to the other extreme, saying that preservers would outnumber defilers, especially if any were sponsored by SKs. Thus did my thoughts betray me to destruction.
I had always assumed that the VA of each city would be able to contact and coopt at least one druid as the lesser of the two evils (defiling vs preserving).
Thank you for pointing out that Druids would not see it this way, that they would, in fact, view any arcane casting as a blight.
Originally posted by mekillot
Although I agree that the lifespan of a defiler would increase dramatically by living in the badlands (supposing he survived their dangers), I saw in the VA source that the number of defilers in each city was approximately 3-4 times the number of preservers. I was trying to come up with a way to justify this and failed.
so I went to the other extreme, saying that preservers would outnumber defilers, especially if any were sponsored by SKs. Thus did my thoughts betray me to destruction.
I had always assumed that the VA of each city would be able to contact and coopt at least one druid as the lesser of the two evils (defiling vs preserving).
Thank you for pointing out that Druids would not see it this way, that they would, in fact, view any arcane casting as a blight.
Hmm.... well, there's also the possibility that the Sorcerer-Kings don't consider most of the Defilers - whou could very well be lower-level Defilers, as any real threat. And in fact, that the existance of the Defilers keeps the VA occupied, and the VA helps keep the defilers in check. Effectively, using both groups in the city to keep each others' numbers down, and requiring little to no actual effort on the Sorcerer-Kings' part. sure, Defilers can seriously impact an area - but they also are most likely prohibited from things like - the King's garden - where if they defile that, then they upset the Sorcerer-King all together, and he sicks his Templars on them. some could be useful as Myrmelion spies infiltrating the VA, to keep tabs on this traitorous organization, others as pawns to throw at the VA whenever it begins to work too hard at an open revolt.
I see the Sorcerer-King probably considering the whole thing as one looks at a game of chess - and the Sorcerer-King would rather a stalemate is reached where he/she doesn't need to actively get involved (and thus, be distracted from other, important matters), while at the same time, let the two groups beat on each other. and with the fear of magic in the masses, both groups have to be pretty darned cloak-and-daggery to be within the cities anyway, or else they'd probably get lynched.
This is why the status-quo hasn't changed in thousands of years. Preserving Magic - when it is attempted to be squashed out, springs up even quicker - as was evidenced with the Preserver Wars. so, the Sorcerer-Kings wanted a control on it - the Veiled Alliance. The Veiled Alliance serves two purposes - first, to keep the Defiler population within a city under check. Second, to keep the Preservers gathered together into one organization, and thus under control. The side-effect tho is that the Veiled Alliance plots gainst the Sorcerer-King. So, the Sorcerer-Kings keep a number of Defilers around, some in their service, others not. the purpose of the Defilers are primarily to keep the Veiled Alliance occupied, and with their Myrmelions, to keep tabs on the Veiled Alliance so the Sorcerer-King can know when they would try something foolish like assault the Sorcerer-King and lead a revolt.
It looks like the SK's aren't necessarily in control, but honestly, they still are holding all the cards, and they effectively have controls over the extreme majority of the rcane spellcasters within their city. The end result - thousands of years with the Veiled Alliance steadily growing, but with the defiler popultion also rising to equal it out. There are more defilers because they aren't as unified - and the Veiled Alliance could handle a larger group of Defilers because they are a unified organization within a city, even in their cell-based state. It's all kept in check by the Sorcerer-King, who then in turn, has his or her time freed up to work on things like the dragon metamorphosis, gthering the requisite slaves for the Dragon's levy, and ruling the city.
And the effects are cumulative. The first day a defiler casts a spell the ground is barren. The next day another spell, another patch dies. The first patch doesn't come back without a lot of work and a lot of time.
Just say a total of 5 1st level and 3 2nd level defiler spells are cast per day within the city. For a population of thousands, not too many spells, I'd think. That defiles 11 yards of land. Land that not only can't be used for spells but will take years to rejuvenate. So how many days of this before the city becomes a husk of ash and the SKs have a significantly reduced power base? These days where 11 yards are destroyed need not even be consecutive. The destruction just picks up where it left off the last time. No real reset button for the system, just a slow decline into ash.
So any number of defilers within the city might be considered too many, by the SKs standards. The other defilers are effectively stealing from the SKs available pool of power. A personal attack on the SK if I ever saw one.
So combine the self-interest of not allowing a depletion of resources with the smack to their pride and I don't see the SKs allowing any defilers to live. I even see the SKs taking valuable resources (time, money, personnel) to make their destruction a priority. Maybe a SK aided purge now and again.
This leads to the question: if there is that much interest in eradicating competing defilers (VA, enmity of SKs, general populace), how have any survived the city?
Originally posted by mekillot
The problem with defilers in the city is that even one of them can have a serious impact on the vitality of the land. The amount of devastation is not a measure of the power they draw (as you said- insignificant to a SK) but the results of drawing that power.
And the effects are cumulative. The first day a defiler casts a spell the ground is barren. The next day another spell, another patch dies. The first patch doesn't come back without a lot of work and a lot of time.
Just say a total of 5 1st level and 3 2nd level defiler spells are cast per day within the city. For a population of thousands, not too many spells, I'd think. That defiles 11 yards of land. Land that not only can't be used for spells but will take years to rejuvenate. So how many days of this before the city becomes a husk of ash and the SKs have a significantly reduced power base? These days where 11 yards are destroyed need not even be consecutive. The destruction just picks up where it left off the last time. No real reset button for the system, just a slow decline into ash.
If there's 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells being ca a day in a city, those defilers would probably be KILLED. My bet is that they use items that already had the energy consumed from somewhere else - so that their day-to-day buisness doesn't require such a waste of energy in the city. ANY Defiling would attract unwanted attention. Defilers have to get downright CREATIVE on how they get along in a city. Or, they rely on something other than magic for survival. A defiler generally doesn't last long there, and is best to seek solace somewhere else. I'd say thatthe implied percentage of the population that are Defilers is a little skewed too. I'd say that there might be.... one in every..... 800 people that are defilers. and for every 3 defilers, there's a preserver, or something (numbers pulled out of my ass). They could import fresh soil covertly and actually grow immense hidden (underground?) gardens specifically for their use with defiling magic.
So any number of defilers within the city might be considered too many, by the SKs standards. The other defilers are effectively stealing from the SKs available pool of power. A personal attack on the SK if I ever saw one.
But how much, honestly, does a SK rely on plant energy for their magic? First off, they probably just use their psionics to handle most things, or better yet, their Templars can handle it, all without using plant energy. Second - they can consume the life energy of animals and people to cast their spells - which makes them be rather self-sufficient without needing to use plants at all. Third - they probably all have, like Kalak did, immense gardens which are off-limits for others to use for spells, and well.... defiling it results in the Sorcerer-King taking special interest in you. Fourth - if the people can't survive on the amount of non-defiled land in the city area, there's too many people in the city anyway. Need another 1,000 lives for the Dragon sometime soon as well.
So combine the self-interest of not allowing a depletion of resources with the smack to their pride and I don't see the SKs allowing any defilers to live. I even see the SKs taking valuable resources (time, money, personnel) to make their destruction a priority. Maybe a SK aided purge now and again.
Well, your trying to apply black-and-white logic to political situations. The Sorcerer-Kings only keep ANYONE in their city alive because they find some use for them. I do see Templars also helping keep the Defilers in check, and the Sorcerer-Kings usually give their own defiler minions some iitems that help deal with the situation of their magic. Defilers, as I've said, have short lifespans in cities. One could say that a soldier has a higher life expectancy on the front lines of a war, than a careless or callous Defiler has in one of the city-states.
This leads to the question: if there is that much interest in eradicating competing defilers (VA, enmity of SKs, general populace), how have any survived the city?
Because the SK's see them as useful. Simple as that. They serve as a distraction to the VA, and as spies from within the VA. They also can be handy to send out against other city-states to wreck havoc from within them, without being a Templar that's more noticeably part of the Sorcerer-King's entarage.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I do see Templars also helping keep the Defilers in check, and the Sorcerer-Kings usually give their own defiler minions some iitems that help deal with the situation of their magic.
This brings up a point: who makes those items? If its the SKs, then you have to give them Item Creation feats, which if they use them takes time from more important matters, or you say they use whish or reality revisions to build items from the groung up, or they have someone making the items for them. A royal defiler?
1) The way I do dragons is that they must have item creation feats for both psionics and magic.
2) I also have "Dragon Magic" a form of limited wish that's useable once a week per level of dragon.
So let's lower the percentages below what the VA says to 100-200 defilers per city. running around a city, each one casting maybe a spell every other day. That's still A LOT of territory destroyed.
- note on the nature of defilement- I consider the soil itself to have life sustaining energy whether there are plants making use of that energy or not. Defiling is stronger when plants are present, but the real damage defiling does is to the soil itself and it takes years to regenerate that energy.
The fact that the SKs do not wholely rely on defiling for their power is not an issue. I agree that the SKs have many other options available for "juicing" and their psionics as well.
The problem is that since the SKs think of the entire city as theirs, including its potential energy. ANY defiling is like poaching the property of the SKs and I think the SKs would take great offense to anyone stealing what is theirs.
I will accept that the SKs know the identity of most of the defilers in the city and simply choose not to snuff them out as they make a great distraction for the people. But their very presence must grate on the SKs.
It looks really good if the templars can parade a defiler through the streets on his way to execution. But for that effect, he doesn't actually need defilers. They can simply accuse someone of it and the crowd reaction will be the same.
Originally posted by Pennarin
This brings up a point: who makes those items? If its the SKs, then you have to give them Item Creation feats, which if they use them takes time from more important matters, or you say they use whish or reality revisions to build items from the groung up, or they have someone making the items for them. A royal defiler?
Who says they don't have item creation feats? Who says they don't inventory the entire mass collection of magic items their templars confiiscate and place within the royal vaults? Who said they didn't keep a collection of the items they stole from the races they killed....?
There's any number of ways they could have gotten these items.
Oh - about your sig Penn - umm... err..... bad?
Originally posted by mekillot
xlorepdarkhelm, I'd have to say that if anything your percentage of the population numbers were a bit high. And you are correct in assuming the careless or foolish defiler would be snuffed in a heartbeat.
Probably so, I was.... being gracious in my numbers
So let's lower the percentages below what the VA says to 100-200 defilers per city. running around a city, each one casting maybe a spell every other day. That's still A LOT of territory destroyed.
Just cause they are there, doesn't mean they are defiling htere. They have to watch their P's and Q's - and basically, have to rely on other means to survive in the city than dfiling. I see them defiling in the city as a last resort - one that immediately targets them for execution, unless they can somehow cover it up. Not something they do actively or with any sense of the word regularly - simply because the dynamics of it would a) wipe out the city's useable soil, like you said, and b) end up with not only the VA, but Templars, and possibly the SK himself knocking on the defiler's door. Not exactly conductive to one's health.
- note on the nature of defilement- I consider the soil itself to have life sustaining energy whether there are plants making use of that energy or not. Defiling is stronger when plants are present, but the real damage defiling does is to the soil itself and it takes years to regenerate that energy.
interesting, I usually work that not only is it the plants, but aslso the nutrients in the soil that gets significantly altered when a defiler rips out everything.
The fact that the SKs do not wholely rely on defiling for their power is not an issue. I agree that the SKs have many other options available for "juicing" and their psionics as well.
Yep, very true
The problem is that since the SKs think of the entire city as theirs, including its potential energy. ANY defiling is like poaching the property of the SKs and I think the SKs would take great offense to anyone stealing what is theirs.
Which is why the smart Defiler doesn't defile in the city - and uses other things, like skills and such to survive, or makes items that they smuggle in, has their own garden to tap from, or some other means to hide the effects of their spellcasting.
I will accept that the SKs know the identity of most of the defilers in the city and simply choose not to snuff them out as they make a great distraction for the people. But their very presence must grate on the SKs.
It looks really good if the templars can parade a defiler through the streets on his way to execution. But for that effect, he doesn't actually need defilers. They can simply accuse someone of it and the crowd reaction will be the same.
I'm not disagreeing with you here - SK's wouldn't have any problem with taking out Defilers and doing it publicly, when they destroy parts of the city. Thus, t enforces the reality to the defilers in the cities, to umm.... NOT defile the city while they are there.
So, just to stir the pot:
let's say that the SKs very covertly sponsor some of these defilers as distractions from the everyday hum-drum. Sort of like a cheaper version of the arena games. One hand builds the reputation of the big bad defiler on the loose, probably a spy from _____ city, get everyone all excited and declare how badly they want him and so forth while the other hand gives him a little aid in evading the pursuit (but keeps him from fleeing the city entirely).
How much aid would the SKs give and what forms might it take? Which intermediaries might the SKs go through to grant this aid? Give some examples of when the game has gone too far and the SKs might get serious about eliminating (or secretly coopting) the "rogue".
Originally posted by mekillot
Great Drakes in Bathtubs! If we start agreeing anymore it's gonna make me sick.
So, just to stir the pot:
let's say that the SKs very covertly sponsor some of these defilers as distractions from the everyday hum-drum. Sort of like a cheaper version of the arena games. One hand builds the reputation of the big bad defiler on the loose, probably a spy from _____ city, get everyone all excited and declare how badly they want him and so forth while the other hand gives him a little aid in evading the pursuit (but keeps him from fleeing the city entirely).
How much aid would the SKs give and what forms might it take? Which intermediaries might the SKs go through to grant this aid? Give some examples of when the game has gone too far and the SKs might get serious about eliminating (or secretly coopting) the "rogue".
What.... are you insinuating that eternity could get boring to the SK's, and that they'd find ways to play with people's lives for their own personal amusement? for shame....
Actually, I could see them doing this. What forms could their help take? Anything from using magic/psionics to ward off being discovered, to even misdirecting their templars (I have the templars actually asking their Sorcerer-King for things like the spell commune. The Sorcerer-King could do all kinds of rat-in-a-maze tricks to keep it exciting. IIntermediaries could be their templars, defilers in their employ, other peole in the city working for the Sorcerer-King, people the Sorcerer-King is "possessing" (following the Champion template I made - basically they make an individual into something like an Avatar that they can experience life through), etc. Maybe it's some item that the defiler finds along their path. Meanwhile, he also keeps the city sealed from the Defiler being able to escape.
The gae going too far - well, that would probably be something like the defiler wiping out entire cros and fields to defend hmself, or touching the King's own personal gardens. The defiler damaging a significant part of the city with their magic. The lives of their Templars and other servants aren't worth much to the Sorcerer-King, so I'd think they'd view those as acceptable losses, when it comes to amusing the Sorcerer-King.
Seriously coopting, well, the SK could simply direct their minions to the right area, or go for a stroll through the streets and do it himself, making an example of that defiler in front of as many witnesses as he can.
Wow, this has the makings of a good adventure plot.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Oh - about your sig Penn - umm... err..... bad?
Hehe. I thought it fitted perfectly what certain others accused you of.
I saw it as a caricature of the plaintif's vision of you.
It was not meant as an insult. On the contrary, it was meant to show how ridiculous I thought the whole thing was.
Its off, don't worry. ;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
Hehe. I thought it fitted perfectly what certain others accused you of.
I saw it as a caricature of the plaintif's vision of you.
It was not meant as an insult. On the contrary, it was meant to show how ridiculous I thought the whole thing was.
Its off, don't worry. ;)
Bah, it's no problem. You misinterpret me. I was joking. Thought it kinda funny actually.
Hehehe, PC's unwhittingly helping the SK's…
Originally posted by The People
I tend to invision that the SK's controll EVERYTHING within their city. After all, they've been there for long enough. It'd be cool to have the PC's finish an adventure in the citty and find a little momento or 'thankyou note' from the SK for being his puppets. So, he'd probably have a tab on all of the lower leven defilers and kill them off throught 'the sport' when they gat to powerfull. I also imagine that they would be pretty enthusiastc to rid themselvs of anyone that is eluding their complex web of influence.
Hehehe, PC's unwhittingly helping the SK's…
Actually, it's funny. This thread's given me the idea of making an adventure which has the character's running around the City State, tracking down a Defiler, avoiding the Templar patrols also tracking him down, he keeps slipping through their fingers, they discover one of their "sources" (or higher-ranking members of the VA if applicable) is a Myrmelion spy of the Sorcerer-King who has been giving them misinformation, and that the Sorcerer-King has been leading his Templars along on a wild goose chase. The adventurers eventually come to discover that this entire adventure is simply for them to take part in the Sorcerer-King's mind games that he uses to thave a little pleasure in life. Everyone - the VA, the Templars, even the Defiler they are chasing - and yes, the Adventuring Party, are all nothing more than pawns and the SK's toys.
Actually, it's funny. This thread's given me the idea of making an adventure which has the character's running around the City State, tracking down a Defiler, avoiding the Templar patrols also tracking him down, he keeps slipping through their fingers, they discover one of their "sources" (or higher-ranking members of the VA if applicable) is a Myrmelion spy of the Sorcerer-King who has been giving them misinformation, and that the Sorcerer-King has been leading his Templars along on a wild goose chase. The adventurers eventually come to discover that this entire adventure is simply for them to take part in the Sorcerer-King's mind games that he uses to thave a little pleasure in life. Everyone - the VA, the Templars, even the Defiler they are chasing - and yes, the Adventuring Party, are all nothing more than pawns and the SK's toys.
All you have to do is have the SK's give them little cryptic 'love letters', posibly to be found on the corpses of the people that the PC's kill. At first it makes no sence, then they find another, then another. Each time that they find a note, a little more of the puzzle slips into place, Untill they figure out that the someone is manipulating their every action. The paranoya starts to set in. The PC's become skittish, wary that every action that they take may be meerly in the furtherance of someones goals. They may never find the sauce of these manipulations, they may think that they know, yet never truly realise. If they flee the city, the paranoya could follow them. They are exploring some ruins and fight and kill a powerfull defiler. His splattered blood spellts out the word 'THANKYOU'. The PC's begin to see patterns that aren't there. Perhaps a number. They look for this number, and find it because they want to. use words and sentances that are linked to this number. A=1, B=2, C=3, etc.
*Leans back, grabs a sandwich formed from the souls of insane PC's from the desk behind him and begins to munch happily*
mmm…soulwich…so screamy…
*Jumps up and down on the double post, screaming soulwich clutched in one hand*
Originally posted by The People
All you have to do is have the SK's give them little cryptic 'love letters', posibly to be found on the corpses of the people that the PC's kill. At first it makes no sence, then they find another, then another. Each time that they find a note, a little more of the puzzle slips into place, Untill they figure out that the someone is manipulating their every action. The paranoya starts to set in. The PC's become skittish, wary that every action that they take may be meerly in the furtherance of someones goals. They may never find the sauce of these manipulations, they may think that they know, yet never truly realise. If they flee the city, the paranoya could follow them. They are exploring some ruins and fight and kill a powerfull defiler. His splattered blood spellts out the word 'THANKYOU'. The PC's begin to see patterns that aren't there. Perhaps a number. They look for this number, and find it because they want to. use words and sentances that are linked to this number. A=1, B=2, C=3, etc.
*Leans back, grabs a sandwich formed from the souls of insane PC's from the desk behind him and begins to munch happily*
mmm…soulwich…so screamy…
No, fr what I'm planning, that would make the players think their characters were too important, witht he SK actually caring enough to leae them note. I'm looking more along the lines of a Bored Sorcerer-King who is toying with people's lives, sets up a full Defiler Hunt through his city, and make sthe VA and Templars run in circles unting him down while basically avoiding each other (or rather, the VA avoiding the Templars). No real ulterior motive other than the fact the SK finds it amusing. Eventually the players find out that no matter what they do during this Adventure, the whole Defiler Chase exists because the Sorcerer-King desires it, and will not end unless the Sorcerer-King no longer finds it enjoyable. And basically, all of their actions have been doing nothing other than amusing their SK. an adventure where the climactic point is - no climax. They've been wasting their time
To me, this just screams something which Sorcerer-Kings would do.
No, fr what I'm planning, that would make the players think their characters were too important, witht he SK actually caring enough to leae them note. I'm looking more along the lines of a Bored Sorcerer-King who is toying with people's lives, sets up a full Defiler Hunt through his city, and make sthe VA and Templars run in circles unting him down while basically avoiding each other (or rather, the VA avoiding the Templars). No real ulterior motive other than the fact the SK finds it amusing. Eventually the players find out that no matter what they do during this Adventure, the whole Defiler Chase exists because the Sorcerer-King desires it, and will not end unless the Sorcerer-King no longer finds it enjoyable. And basically, all of their actions have been doing nothing other than amusing their SK. an adventure where the climactic point is - no climax. They've been wasting their time
To me, this just screams something which Sorcerer-Kings would do.
Hmm, that would be fun to. I invisioned a SK that would delight himself by stuffing with peoples heads. An experiment in sanity if you will. The SK dosen't even have to let on that he's there, just organise things so that they don't make sence- but then they do. Was it a chance that a total of twenty three people died in that bandit atack? was it chance that the bandits where carrying twenty three ceramics? was it coincidence that the dwarven ruins… and so on. Perhaps the SK needs to learn things about the phsyche of sentient beings, perhaps the DM needs to figure out if it's posible to make his players paranoyd in the real world. Whatever the case, I'm getting of track .
*Discards soulwich for the time being*
So yes, I do belive that the Sorcerer-Kings would be controlling things within their city. They'd have it down to a fine art by now. (although, for sone reason had the impression that there where VERRY fiew defilers per city-state and defiling {and arcane magic in general} would be virtually non existant. Oh well)
Originally posted by The People
So yes, I do belive that the Sorcerer-Kings would be controlling things within their city. They'd have it down to a fine art by now. (although, for sone reason had the impression that there where VERRY fiew defilers per city-state and defiling {and arcane magic in general} would be virtually non existant. Oh well)
Well, there are. There's just fewer Preservers there too.
Originally posted by Objulen
On the SK's inflitrating the VA, Rise and Fall demonstrated that many, if not all, SK's know a great deal about the VA simply due to their psionic might.
Very true. But I think it's one of those things where they do actually know a lot about them - through psionic might as well as their spy networks. But do they really care? Unlikely. As long as the VA doesn't disrupt the population or status quo, and keeps the Defilers in check, providing a secondary, unpaid police force to monitor them, the Sorcerer-Kings only really pay them a passing thought once every century or so.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, there are. There's just fewer Preservers there too.
I got the image that there are actually more preservers in a given city (VA) than there are difilers, as the defilers tend to get the heck out of there.
Exactly haw many arcane spellcasters are there in a city? does the VA number in 1-10 or 50-100 for each city? or more? I just need some clarification.
A lot of defilers might be failed preservers.
no actual numbers for this but as a guess:
each city proper takes up maybe a 3 mile radius of ground with fields/farms/mines/what-have-you ringing that by maybe another 3 mile radius?
total population per city- 10,000 - 50,000 (VA, pg 95)
How many preserves vs defilers (VA, pg 95):
preservers- 15 high level (lvl 9-20), 12-20 mid level (lvl 5-8), 12-25 low level (lvl 1-4)
defilers- 40-70 high (lvl 9-20), 40-100 mid (lvl 5-8), 60-200 low (lvl 1-4)
it also says that most of the high level defilers have come to an agreement with the SK of each city.
Frankly, this is why I started this discussion. That number of high and mid level defilers simply cannot exist IMC for reasons stated previously in this post. The math doesn't work out. Too much devastation.
As far as the adventure of having the players entertain the SKs- be extremely careful. I've run this scenario a couple of times with different groups. Each time when it is revealed that the SKs have been manipulating things the players get very bitter. Not just the characters, but the players.
One trick I use to keep the manipulation of the SKs from being a complete buzzkill is to give an upside to the deception.
Sometimes I include:
a) an offer by the SK to join his retinue [never made by the actual SK but through a high templar]
b) an offer to join the VA [VA doesn't know it was all a game] or
c) the pc's find out that the game was actually deeper than even the SK realized and now the players have critical information hooking into the next phase of the adventure.
It goes against everything I've ever done to water down the crushing brutality of Athas by even this much, but, as I've said, hard experience with this scenario has taught me to offer a carrot with the stick- even if the carrot is malformed, dry, and half-decayed.
Just my two ceramic bits.
Originally posted by monastyrski
All posts above do not explain, why there are no "defiler catastrophes" in the orphan cities.
Orphan cities..... ones lacking a Sorcerer-King. Those each answer that question on a case-b-case basis.
Tyr has their Veiled Alliance be more prominant, and have a Preserver Quarter - they openly allow Preservers in, and as such, would be totally against Defilers - not the safest place for them to be in, with the increase in Preservers in the city.
Raam - well, that Anarchic city has so many other problems, I'm sure that the Defilers pretty much fled out of sheer survival instincts. Otherwise, they, like everyone else, would be dealing with all the chaos. I'd say there have been some Defiler Catastrophies however in Raam - ruining the countryside around the largest city in the Tablelands.
Balic has the three Merchant Houses that have taken over the reigns there, and I'm sure they can deal with Defiler troubles.
Draj - well, the defilers could simply be fooled currently by the House of the Mind's puppet king, and be still believing that this king can do the same thing his "father" did.
From xlorepdarkhelm
Very true. But I think it's one of those things where they do actually know a lot about them - through psionic might as well as their spy networks. But do they really care? Unlikely. As long as the VA doesn't disrupt the population or status quo, and keeps the Defilers in check, providing a secondary, unpaid police force to monitor them, the Sorcerer-Kings only really pay them a passing thought once every century or so.
Very true. The sorcerer kings are able schemers, and having a 'fifth column', as it were, inside the city would provide an enemy that they can focus their minnions against, leaving them less time to plot against the sorcerer king in general. Indeed, I would think that the sorcerer kings would subtly promote 'disagreement' between powerful templars for just this reason. Also, the VA can prove to be a useful resorce if something truely threated the city, since other than the SK and her or his defilers, there would not be much of a source of arcane magic available in the city. The average SK would probably have to qualms with making promises only to be broken later, or even giving some minor consesions to the VA if they want to 'honor' their word, depending on the SK's personality.
Originally posted by The People
I think that all (or most of us) agree that the SK's probably controll the VA's strings. The point here is to figure out how many defilers a City-State could logically support. Even if the defilers where being very carefull, there could not be many at all. It simply dosen't make sence to have defilers running arround a city. Personally, I'm inclined to say that the numbers of defilers in a city are extreemly low, with the maximum being as low as 5 or 10. The VA would have verry fiew members per city as well, although I'd actually say that there are slightly more VA members than there are defilers. And do all members of the VA have to be wizards? It seems that they're limiting their power by doing this.
Umm.... let's see. I agree with you to a point about the defiler numbers. Yes, it doesn't make sense for defilers to be running around a city in large numbers casting spells and such with any sense of the word "regularity". However, Defilers being "very careful" in this case, would be to not cast spells in the city at all. Contrary to popular belief, this is a very good possiblity. Yes, it severely hampers them, and makes them not as effective as they could be, but when it comes to casting a spell or staying alive, I think self preservation will rule out. When it comes to casting a spell to stay alive, that's a sure sugn it's time to move for the Defiler - because, once again, survival will win out, and now the Defiler's been marked for death by several organizations withn the city, much less by the crowds of people as a lynch mob arises. And, your numbers for Defilers are, quite honestly, [u]way too low[/i]. Especially when you consider the idea of characters who multiclass as a defiler and something else, because then they'd have something else to fall back upon. Now, I'd say your numbers are probably dead-on for the number of "pure" defilers who aren't multiclassed.
Now, with the VA - I've actually run it as the VA, whole primarily made up of Preservers, and run by Preservers, is open to the possiblity of non-wizards joining their ranks - to a degree. Other classes could potentially be working for the SK more often than a preserver would be - and they have tests established to check for whether a wizard is a preserver or defiler (but the Myrmelion PrC has means to counter this). The exception for this would be potentially Druids - but Druids generally disdain cities on a whole, and also are really rather resentful of wizards and their unnatural, destructive, and potentially defiling magic - every preserver is a potential defiler. However, the VA having non-preserver members, yea, I'd think they do. But they are a preserver-run (directly) organization (and indirectly through the Sorcerer-Kings).