The SKs would defile a lot less than is normally thought.
1) I don't see the SKs leaving their sanctuaries all that often. They have all the gear and research materials they need already at their fingertips. If they need something done, well- that's why they have minions. Ruling the city-states is a full time job. Leaving their power base for an extended time leaves them open for rebellion and subversion by rivals.
2) They wouldn't deplete the area of their city-state. They need as much reserve as they can muster in case of invasion or other emergencies. As the saying goes, you don't deficate in your own back yard.
So if they don't leave town and they want to keep their power bases untouched that means little or no defiling by SKs. Because defiling reduces the potential defenses of the city and the power of the SKs directly, other defilers are a personal insult to the SKs.
This might lead the SKs to actually SPONSOR druids within their reach to keep their available power at its maximum. Probably under the thumbs of those tools called the VA.
What if the entire hunt for the VA is a fabrication? The SKs could already control the VA and use it to keep tabs on "rogue" casters, develop contacts with other do-gooders, and basically hide their hands in some of their more devious machinations!
Originally posted by mekillot
Assuming that defiling removes the vitality of the land for years afterwards:
The SKs would defile a lot less than is normally thought.
yes - but then again, they have powerful psionics at their beck and call, as well as dragon magic which doesn't damage the landscape, only slaughters animal life - like people (prisoners/slaves/etc)
1) I don't see the SKs leaving their sanctuaries all that often. They have all the gear and research materials they need already at their fingertips. If they need something done, well- that's why they have minions. Ruling the city-states is a full time job. Leaving their power base for an extended time leaves them open for rebellion and subversion by rivals.
exactly - plus, they probably would consider another Sorcerer-King leaving his city as a potential threat - one of their peers possibly attempting to come and claim their city and kill them. As such, they tend to not want to get all the others to attck them, and stay put.
2) They wouldn't deplete the area of their city-state. They need as much reserve as they can muster in case of invasion or other emergencies. As the saying goes, you don't deficate in your own back yard.
True. And once again, that's one of the benefits of a slave population, and making laws stringent enough to collect lot of prisoners.
So if they don't leave town and they want to keep their power bases untouched that means little or no defiling by SKs. Because defiling reduces the potential defenses of the city and the power of the SKs directly, other defilers are a personal insult to the SKs.
while at the same toime, keeping defilers present to keep the VA occupied, frees the SK from having to deal with constant attacks from the Veiled ones.
This might lead the SKs to actually SPONSOR druids within their reach to keep their available power at its maximum. Probably under the thumbs of those tools called the VA.
You'd probably need some Druid who could look past the absolutely destrictive environmentally unsafe qualities of a SK - which basically means ignore the Defiler and Dragon-magic parts of an SK, in order to work for them. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very improbable they'd do that. Most druids disdain the cities anyway, and prefer hanging out in the areas their Spirit of the Land is at.
What if the entire hunt for the VA is a fabrication? The SKs could already control the VA and use it to keep tabs on "rogue" casters, develop contacts with other do-gooders, and basically hide their hands in some of their more devious machinations!
Through the use of Myrmelions, this is very possible. the number of Defilers in a city is probably directly proportional to the size, and quality of the Veiled Alliance - enough to keep them distracted from attacking the Sorcerer-King head-on, but not enough to overwhelm them. And the VA keeps the numbers of Defilers in check, and makes sure that Defilers don't totally decimate the plant life in the city. This, to me, would be a typical Sorcerer-King maneuver.
then again - look at the "war" between Gulg and Nibenay - I figure that the wars a sham as well. It keeps the populace focused on something external, and keeps them dedicated to following their ruler, thus making it ewasier to mold and control their populations. But honestly, I don't think that Lalai-Puy and Nibenay have any real goal to conquer each other. It's all a charade that's played out for the benefit of their people. The Sorcerer-Kings play all kinds of games with peoples' heads - while still ending up getting what they really want in the end.
then again - look at the "war" between Gulg and Nibenay - I figure that the wars a sham as well.
Very 1984-ish; I run it the same way.
As far as the coopted Druids working for the SKs: I was kinda throwing ideas out, but let's take a little closer look-
Evil druids- could work for the SKs making sure that the land can withstand the abuse the SKs will eventually put to it. Also a way to funnel information to their non-city brethren.
Don't forget that each city has a huge area of plantations/agricultural production surrounding it. A druid could very well justify living outside the city walls to "keep tabs on the enemy".
Ok, ok both of those are stretching. A lot. So we know why druids would not work for the SKs. Can you think of a reason they would?
So we know why druids would not work for the SKs. Can you think of a reason they would?
They are druids. They have a site to protect, the lushest site they have ever seen. They have the SK as a very powerful ally. What else do they need? They are somehow neutral at least, and true neutral in the 2e setting, so what else they have to care for?
Originally posted by monastyrski
They are druids. They have a site to protect, the lushest site they have ever seen. They have the SK as a very powerful ally. What else do they need? They are somehow neutral at least, and true neutral in the 2e setting, so what else they have to care for?
Neutrral yes. But what druid is honestly actually working for the people who's very being goes against nature, and attacks it so....directly? Evil or not, This makes no real immediate sense to me, unless the druid had something wrong in their head.
Well, or if the Druid actually thought he could change the Sorcerer-King. Or if the city was where the Spirit of the Land was residing. both of those are possiblities.
Yes, they have problems. The insanity haunts them. From time to time, they have to face and destroy their insane brothers. They have to keep the population in line, in order to make them produce enough food at least. They have a lot of other nasty things to do. But they hold on and keep the world.
Any evil person of such power should have resigned long ago. They "shut up and serve".
LONG LIVE THE CHAMPIONS!
Moral neutrality is best described not as someone who doesn't care, but someone who won't stick their neck out to care. Hence, the sorcerer-monarchs aren't really neutral, either, or they'd be more concerned with their citizenry and their treatment. They aren't.
They use and condone obviously evil and cruel behaviors and treatments; life means nothing to them, and they are completely self-absorbed in their own plans and agendas. If you, or the world, get in the way, that's the end of things.
So why would they have Trees of life, kill Rajaat, protect their citizens? They aren't stupid. These things are all of use to them, but beyond being useful, they are expendable and replaceable. No thought will be spared for them one their utility is at an end.
As I mentioned elsewhere in the forums, the SMs are best described as clinical psychopaths (or sociopaths, depending on which psych terminology you're using).
Originally posted by greyorm
While that's all very well and good, the old saying is "the ends do not justify the means." Good folk never engage in such practices because it is ethically abhorent. Why, because two wrongs do not make a right.
Moral neutrality is best described not as someone who doesn't care, but someone who won't stick their neck out to care. Hence, the sorcerer-monarchs aren't really neutral, either, or they'd be more concerned with their citizenry and their treatment. They aren't.
They use and condone obviously evil and cruel behaviors and treatments; life means nothing to them, and they are completely self-absorbed in their own plans and agendas. If you, or the world, get in the way, that's the end of things.
So why would they have Trees of life, kill Rajaat, protect their citizens? They aren't stupid. These things are all of use to them, but beyond being useful, they are expendable and replaceable. No thought will be spared for them one their utility is at an end.
As I mentioned elsewhere in the forums, the SMs are best described as clinical psychopaths (or sociopaths, depending on which psych terminology you're using).
Agreed.
I'm not saying it'd be easy or anything...
Originally posted by Korvar
I've been toying with the idea that the long-term goal of my campaign might be for the PCs to actually attempt to convert Lalali-Puy to the side of the angels - to try and get her to take her "forest goddess" role seriously, instead of an act. I think she's the closest of any of them, given that a lot of what she uses as justifications for her actions could actually be true, if she wanted to...
I'm not saying it'd be easy or anything...
Actually, I see her as simply being an excellent liar. She uses the Forest-Goddess, and appearance of good to meet her own personal ends. Not out of any real benevolent desires.
If you want something that benevolent, look more to Oronis. The others are still way too entreanched in their evil, and rather tend to enjoy it.
But, it could be a cool story idea for a campaign....
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Neutrral yes. But what druid is honestly actually working for the people who's very being goes against nature, and attacks it so....directly? Evil or not, This makes no real immediate sense to me, unless the druid had something wrong in their head.
Well, or if the Druid actually thought he could change the Sorcerer-King. Or if the city was where the Spirit of the Land was residing. both of those are possiblities.
It seems to me that we imagine very different druids. I shall describe mine briefly.
Yes, they all have something very wrong in their heads from the standpoint of any person inveigled into society and economy.
They do not work anyhow for any people. The very idea of "working" makes no sense to them at all. At least, if we do not consider SERVING multiclass 3e druids/templars, which were nonsence in the 2e original setting, but might be extremely interesting for roleplaying.
No doubt, the druid can be insane (and hence true neutral by definition). The most are sane, and therefore they distinguish enemies and allies both of their persons and their cause. But they are neither theologians nor Greenpeace activists, so they have no idea of any being goes not from life to death, but anywhere else.
Beyond all question, they hate defilers, as we hate street vandals, and they should try to destroy any defiler threatening their site. But what for SKs?
Yes, these persons had defiled. But they had stopped that at times so far that no people and few trees remember. Stopped under no compulsion and with no snotty cries of remorse (another idea of city-dwellers that makes no sence to druids).
Yes, the druids understand that these persons can defile again (and shall defile in dire circumstances). E. g., to save the world... The idea of lizard losing its tail to save is not alien to druids, and SKs had proved long ago, that they would not defile to fire a cigarette.
These persons do not want to redeem. It is a pity, someone may say. But have this someone ever seen a pity of druid? Or have he seen a druid powerful enough to help with such a redemption?
So, the druid sees a person, who protected the life for millenia. A person, who seeks and destroys defilers. A person, who had planted the most magnificient garden the druid have ever seen, and protected this garden for millenia. A person, who had filled this garden with numerous sacred Trees of Life. A person, who askes help to tend this garden.
Why should he refuse?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, I see her as simply being an excellent liar. She uses the Forest-Goddess, and appearance of good to meet her own personal ends. Not out of any real benevolent desires.
Oh, absolutely, that's what she is. But the question I'm pondering asking is, can she be changed...
Oronis has potential, too. But if I was going really long-term, I'd set him up as the Hope Of Athas (him and wassisname, Korganard? The other Avangion), only to kill him off in some tragedy, and force the PCs to look for something else...
The single most reputable and notable defilers in the world are the Sorcerer-Kings. How do the Druids know this - their Spirits of the Land most likely warn them against the Sorcerer-Kings. Tthese beings, who are timeless as well, existed during the war against the druids, where these Sorcerer-Kings would massacre them, in the name of Rajaat. They were around when the Cleansing Wars happened. They were around when they made Borys into the Dragon, and watched as he rampaged across the countryside. The Druids know this, because the Spirits know this.
Yes, life and death happens in nature - more pronounced on Athas, due to the very rough existence there is there. As such, Druids tend to be more Neutral. Being True Neutral doesn't make a Druid insane - being True neutral vould mean that have no outside moral or legal implications, and just simply care for their world around them, and not society or right and wrong. They know that Defilers destroy nature, and Druids are supposed to protect it. They spendcountless days fixing what has been done, with little results. Why again, would they be interested in following these Sorcerer-Kings?
Ok, so you have the Druid who, for some reason, decides to follow a Sorcerer-King. As I offered - there's the possiblity that the Spirit of the Land they follow guards and is part of the land the city exists on. That's very possible. As such, maybe the Druid feels it's best to protect the King's Garden, to keep it alive and healthy. Maybe they help with the crops growing in the cities. This is a possiblity. Maybe the Druid believes (however foolishly) that he can redeem the Sorcerer-King, and change him from his defiling ways. There are very stron possiblities for this to happen. The Druid/Templar combination could work. Heck, look at the druid/templar from Rise & Fall, who works for Hamanu. It's possible. However, to the majority of Druids - this is such an alien concept, that it is something they cannot even begin to rationalize with.
Originally posted by Korvar
Oh, absolutely, that's what she is. But the question I'm pondering asking is, can she be changed...
Oronis has potential, too. But if I was going really long-term, I'd set him up as the Hope Of Athas (him and wassisname, Korganard? The other Avangion), only to kill him off in some tragedy, and force the PCs to look for something else...
Ahh, well..... if I recall, Korgunaard already died. Oronis likes to stay hidden. As I said, it would be an interesting campaign idea. I just think that she's no better than the others, she just gives people the impression she is.
I'm about a year before Free Year One, so I've got the freedom to play around with things :Dor the druid could be so selfish that he caved when the SK showed the druid the left hands of his entire family. Without showing him the rest of the family attached.
at that point, when do you start rationalizing? when do you start saying that what you do is for the good of the land? how many lives does it take to be a fair trade?
Stop making me agree!
So how far could the SKs take the whole bribery/extortion tactic? Could they eventually approach a group of druids and convince them to send a delegation to the city- for their own good?
And if you make any more sense, xlorepdarkhelm, I'm gonna have a legion of hairy dwarven paladin/druids start taking names!
Originally posted by mekillot
Hairy Braxt On A Dagger! You better stop making sense!
Stop making me agree!
So how far could the SKs take the whole bribery/extortion tactic? Could they eventually approach a group of druids and convince them to send a delegation to the city- for their own good?
My druids tend to be extraordinarily independent - no groupings of them. They are called by the Spirits of the Land to serve, and are trained by the Spirits of the Land on how. They don't congregate together and form hierarchies or communities or any such nonsense
And if you make any more sense, xlorepdarkhelm, I'm gonna have a legion of hairy dwarven paladin/druids start taking names!
That's ok. Dawnstealer's already handed me a defense team of Dwelfs to use.
Originally posted by greyorm
While that's all very well and good, the old saying is "the ends do not justify the means." Good folk never engage in such practices because it is ethically abhorent. Why, because two wrongs do not make a right.
The dispute on alignment have begun... Alas! I shall be forever cursed for bringing this plague to this forum!
The key question is if the absolute ethics exist on Athas. I suppose no. Why? There are no paladines.
The original DS 2e setting had one more proof of my words. Halflings were called GOOD there.
So why would they have Trees of life, kill Rajaat, protect their citizens? They aren't stupid. These things are all of use to them, but beyond being useful, they are expendable and replaceable. No thought will be spared for them one their utility is at an end.
Yes. Every person is expendable and replaceable. If no, the SKs should be good. But the very existence of human (and demihuman) life on Athas is of absolute value. There are far more comfortable places to enjoy evil life in the infinite Multiverse!
Originally posted by monastyrski
Yes. Every person is expendable and replaceable. If no, the SKs should be good. But the very existence of human (and demihuman) life on Athas is of absolute value. There are far more comfortable places to enjoy evil life in the infinite Multiverse!
Well, let's see. With the Transitive Planes and Outer Planes cut off.... that gives.... the Gray, the Black (yep, All Sorcerer-Kings wish to visit the Black), the Hollow (yet another vacation spot!), the Inner Planes (and I bet the denziens of those planes would love to get their hands on a Sorcerer-King), and.... oh, yea. Athas. :P
Of course, Dregoth has the way around that. And everyone just adores Dregoth too.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Being True Neutral doesn't make a Druid insane
Of course! But the insane druid is obligatory true neutral and may be interesting by himself.
Why again, would they be interested in following these Sorcerer-Kings?
I think there is no contradiction. Every druid may understand a Spirit and interpret his own knowledge only as far as his Int (and some skills) allow. The low-Int druid will HATE. The high-Int can think.
The Druid/Templar combination could work. Heck, look at the druid/templar from Rise & Fall, who works for Hamanu.
It could work in fiction, but it was formally forbidden by the 2e game mechanics. Vivat 3e!
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, let's see. With the Transitive Planes and Outer Planes cut off...
You say someone managed to cut ME, NIBENAU, from the transitive planes? Let's check it up! I just was about to relax for some days in Monmurg. Come with me! Maybe we'll meet this Epic Cutter somewhere! Don't be afraid, I'll take you back here in a week... if you want...
Astral and Ethereal are not cut off. Yes, the caster can get into the Gray. Is it a problem for SK? "Return and repeat" algorithm requires two tries of 26th level caster to reach 50% probability of achieving Astral. What plane is transitive to other Prime Material Planes? It seems that Black (not impeded at all) in 3e, and in 2e... Giths arrived to Athas somehow, and so did mind flayers, if we consider the DS2 CRPG to be official and the planar gate uses some transitive plane... The way exist, so the SKs have certainly found it. After all, Borys knew that the Disjunction was Mordenkainen's!
Originally posted by monastyrski
You say someone managed to cut ME, NIBENAU, from the transitive planes? Let's check it up! I just was about to relax for some days in Monmurg. Come with me! Maybe we'll meet this Epic Cutter somewhere! Don't be afraid, I'll take you back here in a week... if you want...
Astral and Ethereal are not cut off. Yes, the caster can get into the Gray. Is it a problem for SK? "Return and repeat" algorithm requires two tries of 26th level caster to reach 50% probability of achieving Astral. What plane is transitive to other Prime Material Planes? It seems that Black (not impeded at all) in 3e, and in 2e... Giths arrived to Athas somehow, and so did mind flayers, if we consider the DS2 CRPG to be official and the planar gate uses some transitive plane... The way exist, so the SKs have certainly found it. After all, Borys knew that the Disjunction was Mordenkainen's!
Umm.... if it was that easy, Rajaat would have done it ages ago. Officially, he spent far too much resources to attempt to figure out how to access the outer planes, to have it be so simple. And the Gray effectively cuts off the Astral and Ethereal - it is an abomiinable merging of the two that effectively barricades Athas. The Black is an oddity, but I think it's a piece of the Shadow Plane that has been trapped inside the Gray, and is now separate from the rest of the Shadow Plane. There's your 3 transitive planes, all nice and cut off. And without direct access to the Astral Plane (proper), that cuts off access to the Outer Planes. For the purposes of magic, the Gray counts as the Etheral and Astral planes, and the Black probably counts as the Shadow Plane. If Rajaat can't get out, I'd rule noboby can, not even the Sorcerer-Kings.
Two exceptions: Dregoth's portal, which is his preciousssss.... and the two incursions that the Githyanki have done. Considering that the Githyanki live in the Astral Plane, and probably have located the barrier that is the Gray, and studied it timelessly in the Astral Plane.... it's not surprising to me that they found the way - twice. And, it's apparently not easy even for them to do this, due to the intervals between both incursions, and the fact they haven't been popping up everywhere. Dregoth's portal is an anomaly, that apparently exploits something about the Gray that allows it to bypass it. A shame that it's in the hands of an undead Sorcerer-King. But I'm sure he'll sell tickets for people who want to go through.
And umm.... there are no mind flayers officially on Athas. Sorry.
And I just figured that it's a coincidence that there was a Mordenkainen on Athas. Or I come up with new names for the spell designers.....
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Umm.... if it was that easy, Rajaat would have done it ages ago. Officially, he spent far too much resources to attempt to figure out how to access the outer planes, to have it be so simple.
If the outer planes exist at all...
Let us open the sourcebooks. What makes us sure that the outer planes do exist?
P. 79 of the Rules Book says, "Fiends from the Outer Planes Appendix (MC10) can travel to and from Athas at will, but do so rarely, only when summoned by dragons or great wizards". P. 89 of The Age of Heroes has Table XXXIX with the fiend entries, but no explanation of their origin. I know no more.
What is the origin of the Outer Planes? Oerth, Toril, and Krynn have different sets of outer planes both in 2e and 3e, so we can assume that every Prime Material has its unique set of outer planes. This set may be empty for Athas, to explain Rajaat's failure.
And the Gray effectively cuts off the Astral and Ethereal - it is an abomiinable merging of the two that effectively barricades Athas. The Black is an oddity, but I think it's a piece of the Shadow Plane that has been trapped inside the Gray, and is now separate from the rest of the Shadow Plane. There's your 3 transitive planes, all nice and cut off. And without direct access to the Astral Plane (proper), that cuts off access to the Outer Planes. For the purposes of magic, the Gray counts as the Etheral and Astral planes, and the Black probably counts as the Shadow Plane. If Rajaat can't get out, I'd rule noboby can, not even the Sorcerer-Kings.
The Gray cuts off nothing. P. 10 of the Defilers and Preservers says, "... travel via spelljamming is impossible, and planar travel is much more difficult". To explain, there are two tables of failure and lost-in-the-Gray probability, one for outer/astral, and another for inner/etheral. The first is more difficult, but has a (4+caster level)% probability of success. So, Pharistes, manifesting probability travel, has the 34% probability of entering the Astral, otherwise nothing happens, because his level 30 > 15, and he has no chance to enter the Gray unwillingly. Priests are not impeded when contact their patron elements. As for other spells, we can use p. p. 32-33 of the 3e Manual of the Planes even in 2e to determine whether the spell is impeded. The contacts with the Gray and the Black are not impeded at all.
How one can get to other Prime Material? It has no clear definition in 2e, but, probably, via Astral. In 3e, via the Black, and I think that it is impeded by nothing except the natural hasards of the Black.
Dregoth's portal is an anomaly, that apparently exploits something about the Gray that allows it to bypass it.
Yes, but its only anomality is no chance of failure.
And umm.... there are no mind flayers officially on Athas. Sorry.
I feel no sorrow for their nonexistence in the official printed materials, but I ask once again, if we consider DS and DSII CRPGs to be official sources. The mind flayers exist in DSII.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Ahh, well..... if I recall, Korgunaard already died. Oronis likes to stay hidden. As I said, it would be an interesting campaign idea. I just think that she's no better than the others, she just gives people the impression she is.
But she could run with it if it were in her best interests -- if say other SKs were falling or there was something close on her heels. Especially if a group of PCs happenes to get powerful enough to be a threat -- "Help me find a way to repent, to cleanse this land and make up for the evil I have done. Whatever you do, please don't kill me..." -- or whatever, just rambling now
BamBadaDiggetyBamBamBaDiggety
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Shadows of the Deadlands
Errr, Secrets of the Deadlands.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Errr, Secrets of the Deadlands.
Until they release the thing, I reserve the right to call it whatever I want. Dregoth Astounding and Splatter of the Deadlands.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Until they release the thing, I reserve the right to call it whatever I want. Dregoth Astounding and Splatter of the Deadlands.
Now if that's not an incentive...
:D
It's been argued in the past that Athas is a world where no pure good can ever exist, because survival supercedes any ethical or moral code. This is why Paladins don't work in the setting. If you have a player absolutely insistent upon playing one, let him. He'll die before he reaches 2nd level the first time he has to choose between survival and upholding his oaths, the breaking of which will invalidate his class anyway.
Conversely, I would in turn argue that no pure EVIL can exist on Athas either.
Rajaat comes the closest, but he's insane and obsessed. Two thousand years in the Hollow has destroyed any vestiges of personality he had, he's now just a pure entrophic force of chaos. But that's not the same as being evil, he's just become another power on Athas, along with the druidic guardians and spirits of the land. Sure he'll wipe out every living thing (including the halfings after they tell him to get stuffed) on the planet, but because at this point, it's all he's capable of doing.
The Sorcerer-Kings are in a similar fix. All of them are very old, intelligent, and jaded. Personality and character have been burned away by the ages of living, ethics and morals by the brutality of the Cleansing wars. What seems to me to be the guiding principle of the Sorcerer-Kings is some singular obsession that each one has that's unique. Hamanu is a warrior-king, despite the fact he has few enemies to really fight and he lacks the logistics to truly conquer the tablelands. He's just obsessed with war. Nibenay is focused on academic research, so much that he's rarely seen by his people. The Oba is obsessed with being a forest goddess, despite the incongruity of a defiler protecting a forest from exploitation. Eldaarich is paranoid, far beyond what any other Sorcerer King is. Oronis is obsessed with completing Rajaat's task, albeit in a more beneficial form. (Which will be trouble for him later.)
Each one of them is immeasurably cruel (excepting Oronis) and capricious by the standards of any mortal. But that doesn't mean they're evil. And they probably wouldn't consider themselves that. They were made by the world they live in, and they're ideally suited for it.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
He'll die before he reaches 2nd level the first time he has to choose between survival and upholding his oaths, the breaking of which will invalidate his class anyway.
I've seen this argument a couple times now, but it makes no sense.
By the same logic, no one could ever be a preserver on Athas, either, because the first time they had to choose between survival and their oaths of preservation, they'd either die or invalidate their class.
Yet preservers exist in decent numbers (enough to oppose the Sorcerer-Kings and be a bother to them), so obviously, the argument's premises are untrue.
I won't even bring up the impossibility of an Avangion, given the argument's supporting logic. And neither will I mention druids, but the same problems would crop up there to a lesser extent.
Originally posted by greyorm
I've seen this argument a couple times now, but it makes no sense.
By the same logic, no one could ever be a preserver on Athas, either, because the first time they had to choose between survival and their oaths of preservation, they'd either die or invalidate their class.
Yet preservers exist in decent numbers (enough to oppose the Sorcerer-Kings and be a bother to them), so obviously, the argument's premises are untrue.
I won't even bring up the impossibility of an Avangion, given the argument's supporting logic. And neither will I mention druids, but the same problems would crop up there to a lesser extent.
A good set of points. I've a counterargument from another angle against paladins...
In Dark Sun, power always comes at a price. Wizards must steal energy from living things in order to power their spells. Preservers try and only take what is freely given and easily replaced while defilers just take it all. Druids seem more "good", but truthfully they serve an external force, the spirits of the land, and the relationship is more of a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" type. The same goes for elemental clerics; they have devoted themselves to an elemental force's cause, in exchange for power.
So the problem that the paladin class has in Athas is that there really isn't ANY force in Athas that can be considered "good" to draw power from. Nor does absolute Law and Chaos exist. And of course, no gods either, but I've always felt the Paladin stands better as a class that draws its power from secular forces.
To me, paladins always represent the avatar of highest morality and ethics in a society. But on Athas, there's no cultural background for them. The closest thing, ironically, is the Templarates of the city-states. A "Paladin of the Templarate" prestige class would be very cool, a Lawful Evil paladin who epitomizes the dominion of the sorcerer-kings.
Of course, if you decide you want paladins in Dark Sun, go ahead. He'll have an interesting career as sorcerer-kings send legions of assassins after him to destroy what he represents, or worse, to capture him and find out WHERE he's getting his power from...
Adamantyr
Sorry for any confusion.
Originally posted by Korvar
Oh, absolutely, that's what she is. But the question I'm pondering asking is, can she be changed...
That's a really interesting question, and all the more poignant for myself because it is an issue I've been trying to explore, first through a character in a DarkSun game, and then through a set of unfinished short stories.
One of the characters I ran way back was a mutant psionicist who happened to fall in love with the Sorcerer-Queen of Gulg, and devoted himself to her. What made the idea more interesting than a cliche "lovestruck puppy following manipulative lover's orders" was the problem Lalai-Puy had with him: he knows she is just using him, he obeys because it is his desire to do so, rather than because of any belief that she might really care for him or eventually love him.
He is thus the creature she is least able to manipulate, and yet the most loyal servant she has (probably the most honest relationship she's ever had).
It is an interesting conflict for the character because she does not love him, she simply isn't capable of such an emotion...but he (and I) have always wondered: might she someday be?
As the player/writer, I have been wondering if being constantly confronted with such behavior might eventually begin a paradigm shift in her thinking processes?
Or is she, as I've mentioned before, incapable of truly becoming saved? Is she a sociopath? And therefore without the capability of feeling and thinking in real, human ways?
On the other hand, some of the literature I've read suggests it is possible, incredibly rare, but possible: the brain somehow rewires, and the mentally abnormal behaviors become less affluent, emotion develops.
This isn't what happened to Oronis, however -- he was stated as being concerned about his actions even during the time of the Cleansing Wars. In many ways, he's more damned than the other Champions, because he's atoning for things he knew and could feel were wrong at the time he was doing them -- whereas the other Champions still have no capability to self-reflect in that manner, and would find the thought a petty and ridiculous distraction from reality.
In many ways, Athas is a reflection of the SKs in this: the world is a brutal wasteland where only the strong survive, and morality is measured by whether or not you live and how well you live, rather than by any measure of its effect upon others.
Along with Lalai-Puy, I also consider Hammanu to be one of the "salvageable" Sorcerer-Monarchs, but in an anti-hero sort of way. He acts in the best interests of his kingdom and his people, but in reality, he barely spares them a thought. He's still a slave to his own ego, with no conception of the importance of the thoughts and feelings, the lives, of other beings, only his own beliefs, vision, and life.
His kingdom, with its people, is maintained for the sole purpose of flattering Hammanu's ego, of maintaining his vision of self as Immortal Lord and Ruler.
Originally posted by greyorm
One of the characters I ran way back was a mutant psionicist who happened to fall in love with the Sorcerer-Queen of Gulg, and devoted himself to her. What made the idea more interesting than a cliche "lovestruck puppy following manipulative lover's orders" was the problem Lalai-Puy had with him: he knows she is just using him, he obeys because it is his desire to do so, rather than because of any belief that she might really care for him or eventually love him.
He is thus the creature she is least able to manipulate, and yet the most loyal servant she has (probably the most honest relationship she's ever had).
It is an interesting conflict for the character because she does not love him, she simply isn't capable of such an emotion...but he (and I) have always wondered: might she someday be?
As the player/writer, I have been wondering if being constantly confronted with such behavior might eventually begin a paradigm shift in her thinking processes?
Or is she, as I've mentioned before, incapable of truly becoming saved? Is she a sociopath? And therefore without the capability of feeling and thinking in real, human ways?
Good question! The information about the sorcerer-kings (and queens) of Athas was always rather sparse in the game materials. So as the writer you can pretty much do what you want.
In my personal opinion, Lalali-Puy is a vain capricious creature, she's nearly a characteriture of all the negative stereotypes of beautiful vain women. The Ivory Triangle accessory notes that she tends to rule by decree and subjective decision over a structured and ordered law system, and that she has her "good and bad days". I know some players (who would not live very long in her court) who'd make some snippy comments about it being "that time of the month..." For some reason, when I try and picture her, I see Jennifer Lopez.
The other sorcerer-queens aren't as well detailed, since both are dead. Abalach-Re was interesting in that she had some 400 odd children in her 2,000 years of rule, proof that dragons can in fact continue to procreate... even a sorcerer-queen wouldn't be secure enough to polymorth into a true human form for nine months. We know nothing about Sielba other than she picked a fight with Hamanu and lost, the romance angle between them was introduced by Lynn Abbey.
This isn't what happened to Oronis, however -- he was stated as being concerned about his actions even during the time of the Cleansing Wars. In many ways, he's more damned than the other Champions, because he's atoning for things he knew and could feel were wrong at the time he was doing them -- whereas the other Champions still have no capability to self-reflect in that manner, and would find the thought a petty and ridiculous distraction from reality.
Oronis strikes me as misguided in some ways. He intends to restore Athas to the Blue Age. But this makes me wonder...
Rajaat has often claimed to have discovered every arcane secret of magic; there's nothing about the process he hadn't looked into. Maybe that includes Avangions. From the Hollow, through his servants, he knows of Oronis's pain and guilt, and he lets him "discover" the process of the avangion... and he gets a new champion who truly believes in his cause, and is a counterthreat to the traitor champions. Plus Oronis is training his people to restore Athas... rather like the Fremen of Dune train to jihad across the galaxy. Oronis may be more damned than he knows.
Along with Lalai-Puy, I also consider Hammanu to be one of the "salvageable" Sorcerer-Monarchs, but in an anti-hero sort of way. He acts in the best interests of his kingdom and his people, but in reality, he barely spares them a thought. He's still a slave to his own ego, with no conception of the importance of the thoughts and feelings, the lives, of other beings, only his own beliefs, vision, and life.
His kingdom, with its people, is maintained for the sole purpose of flattering Hammanu's ego, of maintaining his vision of self as Immortal Lord and Ruler.
Agreed. The best line from Hamanu was "Don't fear the Dragon, or anything else. Just fear me." Hamanu definitely wants to be that warrior-king/hero type, but his dragon nature will always make him the feared ruler. If Athas greens once again, Hamanu's days are numbered... only so long as his law and his rule are lesser evils over those outside Urik will he prosper.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Good question! The information about the sorcerer-kings (and queens) of Athas was always rather sparse in the game materials. So as the writer you can pretty much do what you want.
In my personal opinion, Lalali-Puy is a vain capricious creature, she's nearly a characteriture of all the negative stereotypes of beautiful vain women. The Ivory Triangle accessory notes that she tends to rule by decree and subjective decision over a structured and ordered law system, and that she has her "good and bad days". I know some players (who would not live very long in her court) who'd make some snippy comments about it being "that time of the month..." For some reason, when I try and picture her, I see Jennifer Lopez.
The other sorcerer-queens aren't as well detailed, since both are dead. Abalach-Re was interesting in that she had some 400 odd children in her 2,000 years of rule, proof that dragons can in fact continue to procreate... even a sorcerer-queen wouldn't be secure enough to polymorth into a true human form for nine months. We know nothing about Sielba other than she picked a fight with Hamanu and lost, the romance angle between them was introduced by Lynn Abbey.
I like your take on Lalai-Puy. I see her as kinda the same thing. However, she's also very manipulative, and puts on a sort of "mask" that makes her seem good to the casual observer.
For Abalach-Re, I think she actually umm.... well.... had an overactive libido. I also saw her as having a very flaky personality, and tended to be more air-headed about things. She *could* buckle down and get a job done, but usually wasn't motivated to do so, which is why Raam was so chaotic. I like to see her as someone who wouldn't mind using a sort of "casting couch" for her templars and city miitary, however. She liked to have fun, and be carefree - and then became downright vile if something got in her way when she was doing that.
Sielba - I like to work off the idea Lynn Abbey introduced, only I think that the fight was simply something that either Hamanu couldn't control his unnatural hunger that Rajjat instilled in him, or they had a spat (she did something that violated one of Hamanu's "laws" of their relationship). Either way, he ends up killing her and sacking her city.
Oronis strikes me as misguided in some ways. He intends to restore Athas to the Blue Age. But this makes me wonder...
Rajaat has often claimed to have discovered every arcane secret of magic; there's nothing about the process he hadn't looked into. Maybe that includes Avangions. From the Hollow, through his servants, he knows of Oronis's pain and guilt, and he lets him "discover" the process of the avangion... and he gets a new champion who truly believes in his cause, and is a counterthreat to the traitor champions. Plus Oronis is training his people to restore Athas... rather like the Fremen of Dune train to jihad across the galaxy. Oronis may be more damned than he knows.
Twisted, I like it.
Agreed. The best line from Hamanu was "Don't fear the Dragon, or anything else. Just fear me." Hamanu definitely wants to be that warrior-king/hero type, but his dragon nature will always make him the feared ruler. If Athas greens once again, Hamanu's days are numbered... only so long as his law and his rule are lesser evils over those outside Urik will he prosper.
Adamantyr
I dunno - Hamanu tends to actually have the respect and support of many of his people. I see him as sort of adopting the people of Urik as if they were his children - and he will fight like a rabid wolverine to protect them at all costs. He's absolute evil to outsiders - and cares not for those who not of his domain. But in Urik, he's almost a caring (if extremely strict) parent-figure. Follow his rules, and you're ok. Even an evil overlord can be a very loving father - and I think that's the relationship you see between Hamanu and his city.
But, as I said - he's still quite evil. He takes pleasure in toying with people's lives, and has no problems wiping out & sacking entire cities. He's, as you said - a dragon. I see him more of a Vampire Hunter D kind of character - he has to hold back and starve himself to stop his bloodthirsty nature. I don't think the other Sorcerer-Kings have any real idea about what Hamanu's true nature is - in that I think he's the Final Champion, or that he's starved himself so. He is a brutal warrior, tho, and is the only Sorcerer-King who actually is specifically noted as leading his armies from the front lines in a battle - making him by far the most martial of them. And he's ruthless on the battlefield.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I like your take on Lalai-Puy. I see her as kinda the same thing. However, she's also very manipulative, and puts on a sort of "mask" that makes her seem good to the casual observer.
Oh yeah. Deceptive and devious are definite traits there...
It seems there's a definite masculine line of thinking running through the sorcerer-king bios... The oba is vain and cat-like. Abalach-Re is presented as a sorcerer-queen who's losing her sanity and control of her city. Sielba is presented as a high-class snob and vixen.
Twisted, I like it.
Thanks. Perfect utopias are dull even in regular fantasy, and one on Athas seems so unbelievable, it just can't be totally accurate. For example, what does the templarate of Kurn do when someone starts investigating the city more closely? It seems to me they may pull a "Prisoner" trick, and imprison people who may leak their secrets in the New Kurn valley... permanently. Oronis would be against killing people without reasonable cause, and they'd probably try and convert them to their way of thinking. Very 1984'ish.
I dunno - Hamanu tends to actually have the respect and support of many of his people. I see him as sort of adopting the people of Urik as if they were his children - and he will fight like a rabid wolverine to protect them at all costs. He's absolute evil to outsiders - and cares not for those who not of his domain. But in Urik, he's almost a caring (if extremely strict) parent-figure. Follow his rules, and you're ok. Even an evil overlord can be a very loving father - and I think that's the relationship you see between Hamanu and his city.
But, as I said - he's still quite evil. He takes pleasure in toying with people's lives, and has no problems wiping out & sacking entire cities. He's, as you said - a dragon. I see him more of a Vampire Hunter D kind of character - he has to hold back and starve himself to stop his bloodthirsty nature. I don't think the other Sorcerer-Kings have any real idea about what Hamanu's true nature is - in that I think he's the Final Champion, or that he's starved himself so. He is a brutal warrior, tho, and is the only Sorcerer-King who actually is specifically noted as leading his armies from the front lines in a battle - making him by far the most martial of them. And he's ruthless on the battlefield.
Well, with or without Lynn Abbey's interpretation of him, the fact is that Urik is a strictly-ruled city. And in her writings, he showed a thinly-veiled contempt for Tyr's "freeman" society. Like any dictator, he's convinced that by stint of age, wisdom, and power that he alone has the right to make policy and rule.
Hamanu's been shaped (or warped) like all the sorcerer-kings by the world they created. If that world changes again, into something different, they'll be relics that have to either move with the times or be cast out. Consider that following the death of the Dragon and the birth of the Cerelean Storm, Hamanu's first edict was to seal the city from everyone. Is he being a protective parent, or a paranoid dictator afraid of change affecting his rule? Decides on how you want your campaigns to go.
Of course, if the Kreen empire invades the highlands, then Hamanu's popularity is going to go up... he'll finally have an enemy that's his equal, if not his master.
Adamantyr
We have a great amount of complains made against the "evil SKs", but let us concider it as usual leftist nonsence, and try to imagine the real situation.
164th King's Age. Year of Desert Vengeance.
13 Champions stand above the newly created Black Sphere, and decide, what to do next. The rush of fight have gone. The aim that had led them into the sesquimillennial struggle turned out a chimera. The barren world populated by miserable people lies around. What should they do?
The easiest way leads to the Astral plane (maybe, the Black) and further, e. g., to the splendid spas of the Baklunish Coast, where psions of such power (even without arcane spellcasting) should have no trouble.
Should an evil being choose another way?
They all had chosen.
Whatever was the reason of the land's devastation, bygone defiling or Rajaat's magic, they have managed to preserve the main oases, and even the Crescent forest. The "Greenpeace" agitators claim Athas to be a dying world, waiting for somebody to save it. What the f... is dying, if a good half of population is not involved in agriculture, and another half not only have enough food to survive, but reproduce quickly enough to supply Borys with 7000 men a year? How many metropolises comparable with "dying" Raam do exist in "thriving" Flanaess?
The burden the Champions put on themselves is very heavy. The main problem is to resist insanity. Human mind is not fit to live for millennia. The Mind Lords have the same problem, though they have not undergone any dragon transformation. Hamanu has a great advantage - he is some 1500 years younger, but the most of others also resist somehow. "Isolationism" of Nibenay or "debauchery" of Abalach-Re may be simply tools of such a resistance. And if one failed to resist, others have to fight with his well-armed insanity.
The second problem is to keep "do-gooders" in line. The greatest trouble made by the VA terrorists was described in the "Marauders of Nibenay". Of course, the "good folk" say, that the Zwuun got mad, after Nibenay had attempted to destroy it... and, of course, the "rare magical object" was intended to protect poor little Zwuun from nasty Nibenay... and if caught with a nuke, they would explain, that it was intended to feed poor starving children... and it were "heroes", who brought Tithian to the Valley!
The Champions had to face Rajaat once again. None of them retreated, though it should be very interesting to look at Rkard, trying to approach Rajaat, not involved into psionic combat with the Champions!
At last, let us imagine three evil beings of great power, looking at the Dark Lens in the hands of puny Sadira...
As for cruelty... do this people understand another reasons? The Champions did not swear the oath of paladinhood, so if one death can save numerous lives, let it be!
Now the remaining Champions still stand for Athas. If Dregoth "ascends", they would face him again. If Rajaat gets free once again, whey would face him the third time. If any other disaster occurs, they would face it too. Any sane being has to help them, not the senceless conspirators.
Join the Templarate!
These are the guidelines of all my DS campaigns.
And yes, I feel that they do struggle with the millenia they have been alive mentally. Hamanu plays with his city, micromanaging through laws, and finding other ways to keep his mind occupied. Dregoth - well..... he's already kinda lost it with the megalomaniacal perspective he's taken. Lalai-Puy wants to play goddess of her people, and quite honestly.... could have eventually turned that lie she told fortwo thousand years into something she actually believes. Nibenay keeps his secrets, and runs his plots - anything to keep himself distracted from the years that pass by. Daskinor - well, his mind cracked. And the entire population of Eldaaritch (and anyone else who gets too close) suffers for it. He couldn't cut it, and even worries the other Champions who happen to stumble by him. Oronis - I think his guilt and grief have become the true motivator of his sanity. He feels so bad for what he had done, that he strives to do something to repay the world for his atrocities.
Of the ones that are now dead - Tectuktitulay had his rituals, games and sacrifices of his people as he played god there, Abalach-Re had her debauchery. Borys' mind slipped completely under the ravages of the metamorphosis spell only to be given a sort of"second wind", with a new mind capable of withstanding the pressures and strains of living thousands of years. Kalak had his mad vision of becoming a full-on Dragon (as did Kalid-Ma, I might add), Andropinis (I know, he's not dead) liked to toy and torture his aristocracy, and run his city, plus his fleet. I think Sielba might have been attaching herself to Hamanu to keep her own sanity (and then he killed her for it later), and Sacha & Wyan got to survive in the presence of Kalak - not much help there.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I tend to think that most evil people don't even realize or see themselves as evil. the moral compass for them is broken, and they are able to more readily and easily justify what they've done to themselves. It doesn't make them any less evil - they just don't think of themselves as evil.
I think that most evil people see themselves as evil. Nevertheless, they do not see themselves as bad. Moreover, they see nothing to be absolutely good or bad. "I am alpha and omega" is their credo. For them, "good" or "bad" means "good or bad for them". They do not bother themselves with ethical reasons of anybody else, so they do not even concider anything beneficial to them as a potential object of any "justification".
This type of ethics makes exemplary merchants, usurers, brigands, and modern politicians. Another type of evil, a "villain" of fairy tales, who regulary and deliberately inflicts useless harm, is not evil at all, but true neutral, because insane. Such a "villain" cannot survive for long, and cannot acquire any power worth noting. I use no NPC "villains", and readily destroy such PCs in the campaigns I master, and in DS campaigns as well.
The very idea of "greedy usurer" or "bloody robber" is not compatible with any social power in a more or less archaic society. Such a power will quickly collapse, maybe with the society. The traditional, paternalistic power is inseparable with the idea of devotion. A French king gains no benefit when laying hands to cure scrofula. Such a power can be good, so its every action is devoted to the continious infliction of social benefit; or it can be neutral, devoted so as and only as it is necessary. Cruel actions, as sacrificing people to keep Rajaat (or nuking Hiroshima), are justified as either "devoted to social benefit" or "necessary", and no "moral compass" is considered in both cases.
In this terms, the SKs are definitely neutral.
I am very interested in any reasonable idea of stable evil power, but I could invent no one.