Athas Monks... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Athas Monks...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
May 30, 2004 21:59:20 Forget flavor for one moment; what would you have to do to Monks to balance them with the other classes in Athas?
#2
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
May 31, 2004 3:26:50 So far, I'm hoping nothing (gamesystem wise), but I should have some playtesting coming in to compare.

Flavor-wise, they already exist, and are talked about in the Ivory Triangle, I believe it's Nibenay that has some. Further, there's evidence of something similar for Villichi, which while there's some inconsistancies with the timeline and story for the Tribe of One series of books, it does do a good job detailing the Villichi, that weren't very fleshed-out prior to the novels.
#3
skitzboy_dup
May 31, 2004 12:25:09 I've found monks at low levels to not be so bad, but once you start getting up there in levels, the low-magic nature of Athas makes a mid to high-level monk pretty powerful in comparison to the other classes. Hence the reason I'm thinking about switching them to a PrC to water them down a bit.
#4
zombiegleemax
May 31, 2004 13:50:54 If any of you have the Midnight books, there is a Defender core class, which is essentially a Monk sans supernatural ability. Midnight is another campaign setting where magic is hard to come by, so it would seem pre-balanced for use in a Dark Sun game.
#5
monastyrski
May 31, 2004 15:56:24
Originally posted by Skitzboy
I've found monks at low levels to not be so bad, but once you start getting up there in levels, the low-magic nature of Athas makes a mid to high-level monk pretty powerful in comparison to the other classes. Hence the reason I'm thinking about switching them to a PrC to water them down a bit.

Athas is not-so-low-magic at high levels, and do not forget psionics! If you think monks to be good for GH/FR/DL settings (I do not), they are not worse for Athas.
#6
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
May 31, 2004 20:49:41
Originally posted by monastyrski
Athas is not-so-low-magic at high levels, and do not forget psionics! If you think monks to be good for GH/FR/DL settings (I do not), they are not worse for Athas.

Actually, Athas is rather low-magic, by design, regardless of level. High amounts of magic items in Athas would be something that characters from FR would have discarded at level 4 or 5. And, not everyone has Psionic Items be freely available as well. So, as such, the Monk class would need to have it's power scaled down (potentially) to compensate for this lack of magic (and psionic) items throughout the levels. The concern I (and many others) have had is that the damage increases and the lack of reliance on equipment, which is balanced for a world where magic (and psionic) equipment is freely available, when placed into a world that is not, could very well be unbalancing. The Soulblade also suffers from this problem, as they are not reliant on external weapons, and rather are relaint on their psychic energy blades.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jun 01, 2004 1:43:56 Check out things like Unearthed Arcana for ideas to help integrate a monk (as is with only flavor changes) into DS. There's also other resources for unarmed combat out there from other companies if you do a little legwork. May not be the PHB monk 100%, but there are a good amount of d20 martial art rules out there.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jun 01, 2004 10:41:29 I currently play a monk in DS, so take that for what it is, but without being class envious, I'm not too worried about it when you can have a psi war with claws of the beast with inertial armor and force screen +8 AC, claws and armor last hour/level, so nothing to worry about, only screen is /min. Plus Expansion, which at level 6, they can be Huge and do a lot of damage, +psionic fist, psionic meditation. etc.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 11, 2004 8:49:45 xlorepdarkhelm, any word back on the playtest monks in your campaign?
#10
superpriest
Jun 11, 2004 9:17:30 I seriously doubt anything is needed to balance a monk.

I played in a really low-treasure Ravenloft campaign with a fighter, monk, and rogue in the party. The monk and fighter were about equal in terms of damage (1-handed weapon for the fighter), and the rogue was just a little behind. The monk had a worse AC than the fighter by far, though the rogue's was as low.
#11
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jun 11, 2004 12:18:47
Originally posted by mekillot
xlorepdarkhelm, any word back on the playtest monks in your campaign?

I've since migrated to Nytcrawlr's Psi-Monk. Still haven't gotten a player interested in playing one yet.
#12
ascian
Jul 02, 2004 12:46:25 Wouldn't Athasian Monks get brutally mangled due to low AC? People always say they're equipment-independent, but I'd say they're the most reliant on magic items to keep their AC up. The alternative is, of course, donning heavy armour and waving goodbye to some of the class' best abilities.
#13
Sysane
Jul 02, 2004 12:52:31
Wouldn't Athasian Monks get brutally mangled due to low AC? People always say they're equipment-independent, but I'd say they're the most reliant on magic items to keep their AC up. The alternative is, of course, donning heavy armour and waving goodbye to some of the class' best abilities.

In a world where wearing heavy armor could kill you due to the heat is not a good idea. Most players would be wearing light armor. The monk would wear none.

A kreen monk with a natual armor, bonus high dex, and high wisdom would be broken to say the least.
#14
Kamelion
Jul 02, 2004 13:08:17 His name is Tik-Tik Kyorthok and he is the terror of my campaign :D. Currently Thri Kreen Fighter 2/Monk 3. Dex 19, Wis 16. And it's only going to get worse.

High time for a meeting with Doomspike, methinks...
#15
Sysane
Jul 02, 2004 13:10:05 Case and point

Monk as written is a bite unbalanced in DS.
#16
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 02, 2004 13:11:21
Originally posted by Ascian
Wouldn't Athasian Monks get brutally mangled due to low AC? People always say they're equipment-independent, but I'd say they're the most reliant on magic items to keep their AC up. The alternative is, of course, donning heavy armour and waving goodbye to some of the class' best abilities.

Check out what their Wisdom bonus does to their AC, or what their bonus AC modifiers they get do. You'll find that they aren't as reliant as you think.
#17
Sysane
Jul 02, 2004 13:11:48 Oops I mean a bit unbalaced ;)
#18
ascian
Jul 02, 2004 13:12:17
Originally posted by Sysane
In a world where wearing heavy armor could kill you due to the heat is not a good idea. Most players would be wearing light armor. The monk would wear none.

Yes, I'm aware of this. The intention of my post wasn't to suggest Monks should run around in full plate, but rather to question individuals' claims of Monkish superiority in Athas' low-magic setting.
#19
ascian
Jul 02, 2004 13:17:47
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Check out what their Wisdom bonus does to their AC, or what their bonus AC modifiers they get do. You'll find that they aren't as reliant as you think.

I'll have to see for myself, I suppose. Just need to talk my disenfranchised Monk player into giving the class another try. Thanks for the response.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 30, 2004 21:59:20	Forget flavor for one moment; what would you have to do to Monks to balance them with the other classes in Athas?
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 31, 2004 3:26:50	So far, I'm hoping nothing (gamesystem wise), but I should have some playtesting coming in to compare. Flavor-wise, they already exist, and are talked about in the Ivory Triangle, I believe it's Nibenay that has some. Further, there's evidence of something similar for Villichi, which while there's some inconsistancies with the timeline and story for the Tribe of One series of books, it does do a good job detailing the Villichi, that weren't very fleshed-out prior to the novels.
#3 skitzboy_dup May 31, 2004 12:25:09	I've found monks at low levels to not be so bad, but once you start getting up there in levels, the low-magic nature of Athas makes a mid to high-level monk pretty powerful in comparison to the other classes. Hence the reason I'm thinking about switching them to a PrC to water them down a bit.
#4 zombiegleemax May 31, 2004 13:50:54	If any of you have the Midnight books, there is a Defender core class, which is essentially a Monk sans supernatural ability. Midnight is another campaign setting where magic is hard to come by, so it would seem pre-balanced for use in a Dark Sun game.
#5 monastyrski May 31, 2004 15:56:24	Originally posted by Skitzboy I've found monks at low levels to not be so bad, but once you start getting up there in levels, the low-magic nature of Athas makes a mid to high-level monk pretty powerful in comparison to the other classes. Hence the reason I'm thinking about switching them to a PrC to water them down a bit. Athas is not-so-low-magic at high levels, and do not forget psionics! If you think monks to be good for GH/FR/DL settings (I do not), they are not worse for Athas.
#6 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 31, 2004 20:49:41	Originally posted by monastyrski Athas is not-so-low-magic at high levels, and do not forget psionics! If you think monks to be good for GH/FR/DL settings (I do not), they are not worse for Athas. Actually, Athas is rather low-magic, by design, regardless of level. High amounts of magic items in Athas would be something that characters from FR would have discarded at level 4 or 5. And, not everyone has Psionic Items be freely available as well. So, as such, the Monk class would need to have it's power scaled down (potentially) to compensate for this lack of magic (and psionic) items throughout the levels. The concern I (and many others) have had is that the damage increases and the lack of reliance on equipment, which is balanced for a world where magic (and psionic) equipment is freely available, when placed into a world that is not, could very well be unbalancing. The Soulblade also suffers from this problem, as they are not reliant on external weapons, and rather are relaint on their psychic energy blades.
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 01, 2004 1:43:56	Check out things like Unearthed Arcana for ideas to help integrate a monk (as is with only flavor changes) into DS. There's also other resources for unarmed combat out there from other companies if you do a little legwork. May not be the PHB monk 100%, but there are a good amount of d20 martial art rules out there.
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 01, 2004 10:41:29	I currently play a monk in DS, so take that for what it is, but without being class envious, I'm not too worried about it when you can have a psi war with claws of the beast with inertial armor and force screen +8 AC, claws and armor last hour/level, so nothing to worry about, only screen is /min. Plus Expansion, which at level 6, they can be Huge and do a lot of damage, +psionic fist, psionic meditation. etc.
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 11, 2004 8:49:45	xlorepdarkhelm, any word back on the playtest monks in your campaign?
#10 superpriest Jun 11, 2004 9:17:30	I seriously doubt anything is needed to balance a monk. I played in a really low-treasure Ravenloft campaign with a fighter, monk, and rogue in the party. The monk and fighter were about equal in terms of damage (1-handed weapon for the fighter), and the rogue was just a little behind. The monk had a worse AC than the fighter by far, though the rogue's was as low.
#11 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 11, 2004 12:18:47	Originally posted by mekillot xlorepdarkhelm, any word back on the playtest monks in your campaign? I've since migrated to Nytcrawlr's Psi-Monk. Still haven't gotten a player interested in playing one yet.
#12 ascian Jul 02, 2004 12:46:25	Wouldn't Athasian Monks get brutally mangled due to low AC? People always say they're equipment-independent, but I'd say they're the most reliant on magic items to keep their AC up. The alternative is, of course, donning heavy armour and waving goodbye to some of the class' best abilities.
#13 Sysane Jul 02, 2004 12:52:31	Wouldn't Athasian Monks get brutally mangled due to low AC? People always say they're equipment-independent, but I'd say they're the most reliant on magic items to keep their AC up. The alternative is, of course, donning heavy armour and waving goodbye to some of the class' best abilities. In a world where wearing heavy armor could kill you due to the heat is not a good idea. Most players would be wearing light armor. The monk would wear none. A kreen monk with a natual armor, bonus high dex, and high wisdom would be broken to say the least.
#14 Kamelion Jul 02, 2004 13:08:17	His name is Tik-Tik Kyorthok and he is the terror of my campaign :D. Currently Thri Kreen Fighter 2/Monk 3. Dex 19, Wis 16. And it's only going to get worse. High time for a meeting with Doomspike, methinks...
#15 Sysane Jul 02, 2004 13:10:05	Case and point Monk as written is a bite unbalanced in DS.
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 02, 2004 13:11:21	Originally posted by Ascian Wouldn't Athasian Monks get brutally mangled due to low AC? People always say they're equipment-independent, but I'd say they're the most reliant on magic items to keep their AC up. The alternative is, of course, donning heavy armour and waving goodbye to some of the class' best abilities. Check out what their Wisdom bonus does to their AC, or what their bonus AC modifiers they get do. You'll find that they aren't as reliant as you think.
#17 Sysane Jul 02, 2004 13:11:48	Oops I mean a bit unbalaced ;)
#18 ascian Jul 02, 2004 13:12:17	Originally posted by Sysane In a world where wearing heavy armor could kill you due to the heat is not a good idea. Most players would be wearing light armor. The monk would wear none. Yes, I'm aware of this. The intention of my post wasn't to suggest Monks should run around in full plate, but rather to question individuals' claims of Monkish superiority in Athas' low-magic setting.
#19 ascian Jul 02, 2004 13:17:47	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm Check out what their Wisdom bonus does to their AC, or what their bonus AC modifiers they get do. You'll find that they aren't as reliant as you think. I'll have to see for myself, I suppose. Just need to talk my disenfranchised Monk player into giving the class another try. Thanks for the response.