Originally posted by slayergirl
When and why did TSR (Wizards) stop supporting Ravenloft as a full on campaign setting?
When ? The last TSR/WotC RL product was in 2000.
Why ? Well, I guess it's the same reason as letting Mystara, Birthright, Conan, Al-Qadim, Savage Coast. etc. go, i.e. the lower sales.
It's a better business plan for a company to focus on two or three settings (FR, DL, GH) instead of 15.
And indeed, White Wolf did a good job so far !
Joël
on the other hand Ravenloft is designed for White Wolf.
Originally back when I was pretty young I liked the d+d but I quickly turned to Vampire: The Masquerade. When White Wolf took over Ravenloft I found something that was perfect.
Sadly, it's a trend that as companies get bigger, they also get less diverse. One of the inherent flaws of the system, I guess. When only the strong survive, the strong tend to look pretty much alike.
Another flaw are the domain where the pc can do nothing except fighting against the Darklord like for exemple lamordia, I mean this domain must be the most boring domain ever.
Also some darklord and curse are a bit ridiculous like richemulot.
I also hate nosferatus, how come can a vampire be imune to sunlight?
But well it is still a great setting because of domain such as barovia,darkon,souragne,mordent,sithicus(even if they should change the dl).
I guess I will makew my alternate verison of ravenloft where lord soth would still be there and where the most boring core domain would become island of terror and be replaced by cooler domain.
Originally posted by mephistopheless
I also hate nosferatus, how come can a vampire be imune to sunlight?
.
Since Dracula. The Count could go out in sunlight, he just couldn't use his powers.
Originally posted by mephistopheless
Another flaw are the domain where the pc can do nothing except fighting against the Darklord like for exemple lamordia, I mean this domain must be the most boring domain ever.
Incidently, have you even glanced at RL Gazetteer no. 2? This does a lot to remedy that situation, and if you don't think it does, there's still a lot you can do to fix this situation. In my campaign, Lamordia has a thriving mining community in the slopes of the Sleeping Beast, slowly digging their way under the mountain, till they one day will wake the Sleeping Beast herself. I think van Richten gives her name as Baltoi. Just get creative.
Also some darklord and curse are a bit ridiculous like richemulot.
Again, I disagree. But suit yourself.
I also hate nosferatus, how come can a vampire be imune to sunlight?
Well, Dracula himself was immune to sunlight. And while they may not be disoriented and burned, their powers greatly weaken in daylight. Besides, the Nosferatu wasn't White Wolfs invention, it came with the first Van Richtens Guide to the Vampire. The vampire in popular fiction didn't become vulnerable to sunlight until Morneaus classic film Nosferatu, from 1922 or there-abouts.
But well it is still a great setting because of domain such as barovia,darkon,souragne,mordent,sithicus(even if they should change the dl).
Now I'm with you. I love those domains too.
I guess I will makew my alternate verison of ravenloft where lord soth would still be there and where the most boring core domain would become island of terror and be replaced by cooler domain. [/b]
Well, if you can accomplish that, I applaud it. Anything that makes Ravenloft cooler for yourself (and others) is worth doing. I even encourage you to share it with the rest of us!
Another flaw are the domain where the pc can do nothing except fighting against the Darklord like for exemple lamordia, I mean this domain must be the most boring domain ever.
Well, yes it can bea really boring, when you are a really boring DM...
Also some darklord and curse are a bit ridiculous like richemulot.
Richemulot happens to be one of the most loved domains for me, and as for mademoiselle Renier, I deeply bow to her and knowing what it means to have love in your heart which you know never finds a way out... i find her curse to be one not to envy.
I also hate nosferatus, how come can a vampire be imune to sunlight?
Why on earth everybody thinks instantly of count Dracula, when vampires are mentioned? Save me from holy ignorance! What about legends, myths, do you even know what a vampire is?
But that's already a matter, of which i could tell for days... and i think everybody should do the research themselves.
First, i would suggest everyone to read Le Fanu's "Carmilla" which is the greatest vampire story ever, and which was a great inspiration to Bram Stoker to write his infamous bestseller.
... but as i end my outburst, i must mention that all of it is but my own humble opinion... *bow*
Originally posted by malken
Besides, the Nosferatu wasn't White Wolfs invention, it came with the first Van Richtens Guide to the Vampire.
Actually, the nosferatu as a sunlight-immune vampire that drank blood instead of draining levels predated VRGttV, too. It also appeared in the very first Known World Gazetteer, "GAZ1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos", back in 1987 when Basic D&D was still a separate game from AD&D. So the D&D nosferatu actually dates back to before RL became a game setting, albeit not before the original Ravenloft module.
Originally posted by Kyylik
Well, yes it can bea really boring, when you are a really boring DM...
Yeah you can have a lot of exciting adventures in lamordia: You can fight thugs,wild animals and the monsters of mordenheim.
And yes this domain is boring dnd whitout magic suck end of the story.
Richemulot happens to be one of the most loved domains for me, and as for mademoiselle Renier, I deeply bow to her and knowing what it means to have love in your heart which you know never finds a way out... i find her curse to be one not to envy.
[/b]
Wererats are not frightening they are ridiculous at least as much as weresharks!
What about legends, myths, do you even know what a vampire is?
But that's already a matter, of which i could tell for days... and i think everybody should do the research themselves.
[/b]
Sorry mr the true vampire I just think vampires are cooler when they die when sunlight hit them! As for myth and legend yes I read them I knew in some place vampires were not affected by sunlight ... But vampires in the modern folklore are affected by sunlight!
So now go back drink your nightly dose of blood mr.vampire
Originally posted by Kyylik
Why on earth everybody thinks instantly of count Dracula, when vampires are mentioned? Save me from holy ignorance! [/b]
Because he is the most popular vampire ever????
And when I think about vmapires I usually think about anne rice vampires or vampire the masquerade vampires.
Sinc the old legends about vampires stink...
We rekajiggered the 2E nosferatu somewhat for 3E to more closely reflect the "Byronic" vampires of 19th century fiction (including most notably Ruthven, Carmilla, and Dracula).
The vrykolaka was created for 3E to represent actual, "folkloric" vampires, and as such is an amalgam of various folkloric revenant traits.
The chiang-shi is an adaptation of 2E's "oriental vampire," given a new name and tweaked slightly to better represent the folkloric creature it's named for.
Originally posted by Rotipher
Actually, the nosferatu as a sunlight-immune vampire that drank blood instead of draining levels predated VRGttV, too. It also appeared in the very first Known World Gazetteer, "GAZ1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos", back in 1987 when Basic D&D was still a separate game from AD&D. So the D&D nosferatu actually dates back to before RL became a game setting, albeit not before the original Ravenloft module.
Wow, I salute your knowledge.
Ever thought about mastermind?
The chiang-shi is an adaptation of 2E's "oriental vampire," given a new name and tweaked slightly to better represent the folkloric creature it's named for. [/b]
yeah I actually like this kind of vampire, another interesting one is the hopping vampire in oriental adventure.
Originally posted by mephistopheless
Yeah you can have a lot of exciting adventures in lamordia: You can fight thugs,wild animals and the monsters of mordenheim.
And yes this domain is boring dnd whitout magic suck end of the story.
Wererats are not frightening they are ridiculous at least as much as weresharks!
Wow. I totally disagree with everything you stand for. But, as I said, suit yourself.
Sorry mr the true vampire I just think vampires are cooler when they die when sunlight hit them! As for myth and legend yes I read them I knew in some place vampires were not affected by sunlight ... But vampires in the modern folklore are affected by sunlight!
So now go back drink your nightly dose of blood mr.vampire
I'm sorry if we offended you, but if that's your way of dealing with it, pipe it. We don't need to retort to namecalling just because we disagree with each other. If you think that there is only room for one kind of vampire in your game, fine. But at least have the courtesy to listen to other people opinions without turning sour.
I also think the question's been answered... WoTC decided to focus it's efforts and money into the Faerunian world etc, leaving nothign for the comparatively smaller game worlds.
I don't like forgotten realm because it has to much magic. And yes as a full world it work better than ravenloft.
Ravenloft tend to be ass kicking for week-end in hell style or when you stick to only a few domain.
and many monsters are quite cartoonish I mean many seem to be evil for the sake of being evil(taking the drow as an exemple)
and many monsters are quite cartoonish I mean many seem to be evil for the sake of being evil(taking the drow as an exemple)
I agree somewhat with you about the portrayl of the drow in Forgotten Realms. I think they could have been developed to a further extent. However as utilitarian trouble makers and evil doers they work quite well. Whenever you need something to go wrong or something just generally evil and self serving to happen in a game in FR, you can conviently use the drow. Its pricesly because they are driven by only a lust for furthering their own ends and their own power that they work so well as a villainous , counter balancing force to the powers of good (i.e Eliminster, The Harpers) Also I think its just interesting from a racial standpoint to basically take the elves and turn them completely on their heads. Take everything that you normally associate with your typical Faerunian elf, and twist it around so that where an elf usually cares about preserving art, nature, and elven culture, not nessesarily through violent means, the drow do all those things but in their own self centered and self fulfilling way. They care about preserving their own race and their own twisted view of culture and art, but they do so without the ethical considerations that most of the surface dwelling elves have. I personally just find that to be an interesting little quirk in their personality that makes the drow work all the better as serious and realistic villains in the world of Forgotten Realms.
Originally posted by slayergirl
I agree somewhat with you about the portrayl of the drow in Forgotten Realms. I think they could have been developed to a further extent. However as utilitarian trouble makers and evil doers they work quite well. Whenever you need something to go wrong or something just generally evil and self serving to happen in a game in FR, you can conviently use the drow.
Actually, I think the FR drow are dreadful. I remember the pleasure of the Vault if The Drow where they really were debauched, demon worshipping creatures of darkness. And they only had one God, Lolth (leaving aside the elder elemental god, worshipped only in revolt).
The FR drow seem 'evil light' to me and the idea that they have a pantheon just wrong. Lolth would not allow competition, she would hunt down other drow gods and kills them.
They have also become too common. The Drow should be very rare and a horror to encounter. Not catch all bad guys.
I also hate nosferatus, how come can a vampire be imune to sunlight?
Well, since you also said this:
As for myth and legend yes I read them I knew in some place vampires were not affected by sunlight ... But vampires in the modern folklore are affected by sunlight!
You answered your own question. So why did you bother asking it? Also, you say of Dracula (who could go out in daylight without too much trouble):
Because he is the most popular vampire ever????
, implying (in context) that you consider Dracula on the cool vampire list despite the unforgivable flaw of his sunlight resistance.
Now, I want to touch on these two comments:
Sorry mr the true vampire I just think vampires are cooler when they die when sunlight hit them!
So now go back drink your nightly dose of blood mr.vampire
I don't see Kyylik claiming to be a "true vampire." The assertion that Kyylik's objection comes from such a claim strikes me as insulting.
The fact is that there are all kinds of legends out there from which the DMs and writers can draw, and nothing limits them to a single vision of what that monster must be.
I hate the racially specific vampires (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Halfling), but I don't think they shouldn't exist. They just don't fit the way I look at the game.
And these:
And when I think about vmapires I usually think about anne rice vampires or vampire the masquerade vampires.
Sinc the old legends about vampires stink...
Well, to each his own I suppose. But D&D is not a contemporary setting. I don't see a problem with having appropriate "period" or "genre" monsters. In my opinion, the Anne Rice/White Wolf versions of vampire-dom fit better with a more modern setting.
For that matter, there are V:tM vampires who can withstand the sun (thin-bloods, Gaki, Ba'ali). I can't comment on Rice's vampires since I've never been able to force myself to finish any of her vampire novels.
The point being, the Nosferatu is hardly a betrayal of the basic elements of "vampire" (a vaguely humanoid monster - usually undead - who feeds on the blood or life-force of humans).
Also some darklord and curse are a bit ridiculous like richemulot.
This is really off the subject, but if you're going to go on about "stupid" Darklord curses, there are a lot worse than Jacqueline Renier's.
Wererats are not frightening they are ridiculous at least as much as weresharks!
Also off-topic, wererats can be quite fun if run properly. They just aren't great at direct combat.
More on-topic, I think WotC dropped Ravenloft because Ravenloft is to a degree a "niche" setting - people who like fantasy/high adventure will be drawn to D&D, but people wanting a horror/thriller game are just as likely to aim for WoD or Call of Cthulhu.
Also, I think that the 'loft is a little too fond of additional rules and restrictions. I know more than one player who's been turned off just by the amount of new material that they have to deal with.
D&D 3rd Edition (and more particularly 3.5) just seem to incorporate new materials into it much better than 2nd Edition.
I can honestly say that White Wolf have done an excellent job of revamping and filling out Ravenloft, and there is at least one thing (if not thirteen things) from the new products that I can take and integrate into my campaign without it ceasing to make sense or requiring vast rule changes.
3rd Edition was the best thing that ever happened to D&D, and particularly to Ravenloft. With 2nd Edition, you'd tend to think "Ooo, vampire; do this and that to kill it, yawn, next..." but I find with all the fact vampires and the like are more likely templates these days, with character classes and who knows what else, you can never really be sure what you're facing, and so brings back to uncertainity and horror to Ravenloft....
And as for Vampires, theres a nice new template for a decent vampire here http://www.ravenloft.me.uk/Renaissance/
and the template are good
It seems to be doing quite well now though since it has been picked up by White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery, I think they've done a wonderful stewardship job with the setting.
3e/3.5 RL(A bunch of silly optional rules, no novel base, and useless wording cluttering up pages.) doing a better job than 2e RL(The Golden Ages. With novels, material that made sense, etc.) ? LoL! If you say so.
Ravenloft has fallen off. RL 2e had a firm product base and excellent storyline material, 3e had good mechanics and the Gazettes were nice, 3.5 is a miserable attempt to re-vamp RL with a bunch of silly new rules, and is nothing short of a cruel joke on the setting. IMO the only thing keeping RL kicking is kats like MSD.
~~~
Interestingly, it's neat to look at how Ravenloft has evolved through the years. It started as a very unique module with a thinking nemesis. It was one of the first modules I'd ever seen that put an emphasis on roleplaying and the motivations behind the main villain.
This unique module then grew into a unique thought experiement: "Can we make an entire campaign out of these two modules?" And ended up with one of the most unique game settings out there. It introduced two new genres to the gaming fold: "Horror Fantasy" and of course, "Gothic Horror."
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
IMO the only thing keeping RL kicking is kats like MSD.
~~~
If you like the new version of Ravenloft, awesome. If you don't like it, well I'm sorry. I am confused by the above post. I thought MSD was all about Ravenloft in its new edition.
And yup, MSD is all about the 3.5.
The crunch may change but the fluff is timeless.
But anywho...Its been said before, ravenloft is a niche...but for the people that are looking for this niche its great.
I hate forgotten realms...I hate the epicness, the high fantasy and most of all the story lines.
I like that 3e ravenloft doesn't have a novel line...those people can't write...the novel line for ravenloft comes from authors like bram stoker, poe, lovecraft and the like.
I don't play in a game to just drift through a story somebody else has created, thats not the point.
And thats why stuff like forgotten realms isn't for me.
That and I prefer to have some engaging elements...I mean I love the bashing type stuff thats what I play video games for.
If I'm going to sit down with pencil and paper and words, I want something that engages me.
I came from Vampire:the Masquerade...so maybe I have a different view of the matter.
I know 2e...my rp career started with d+d 2e and after many books moved to v:tm...but now I'm at home with ravenloft 3e. I have no taste for ravenloft 2e b/c 2e in general...was geared for rules and tables...and not the gothic horror that I love.
As with everything that changes there will always be people that lament how bad the new is b/c they miss their old.
The only thing I don't get is why they stick around to complain about something they don't like anymore.
I don't go to 2e d+d places and complain about how I love my 3e.
And the novels... well, the best source novels don't have the Ravenloft logo plastered on their cover.
3rd edition is better. And the ravenloft version of white wolf is great sure it's not a perfetc verison but it still beat all the older version of the game.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
3e/3.5 RL(A bunch of silly optional rules, no novel base, and useless wording cluttering up pages.) doing a better job than 2e RL(The Golden Ages. With novels, material that made sense, etc.) ? LoL! If you say so. ~~~
Sorry, but novels (and great ones at that) do not a playable campaign make.
"Silly Optional Rules" are optional; if you think them silly, ignore them.Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Ravenloft has fallen off. RL 2e had a firm product base and excellent storyline material, 3e had good mechanics and the Gazettes were nice, 3.5 is a miserable attempt to re-vamp RL with a bunch of silly new rules, and is nothing short of a cruel joke on the setting. IMO the only thing keeping RL kicking is kats like MSD.
~~~
As much as 2E was an excellent start, the new products just fill out the world so much better. The Dread Possiblity sidebars could launch a dozen campaigns alone!!!
Originally posted by mephistopheless
Wererats are not frightening they are ridiculous at least as much as weresharks!
Ever read Scholar of Decay ? Those wererats were nothing to laugh at...
To me, that's the novel that best captures the "Richemulot atmosphere".
Oh, and if you happen to disagree, please elaborate. "Richemulot/wererats suck" is a bit short ;)
1. Click the quote button
2. Post under(Or above it whichever suits you better.) that which you have quoted.
Originally posted by Lovepuddin
Sorry, but novels (and great ones at that) do not a playable campaign make.
Novels may not make a campaign but they surely add to the flavor of it. As a matter of fact a few of the sourcebooks that have been put out for RL in the 3e days have attempted to use short stories(A short narrative rather than the longer version found in novels.) to express the flavor of RL.
The Gazetteers are a perfect example of this(IMO this is what makes the 3e Gazetteers the great books that they are. Rather than saying "This and this happens in Barovia they are giving it to you from a story version. As if someone actually visited the places. The difference between mechanics books and story telling books. v.3.5 RL is a bunch of useless mechanics.).
"Silly Optional Rules" are optional; if you think them silly, ignore them.
Or do not purchase the RL v.3.5 books in the first place. An even better option. The so called new rules(Which are quite silly might I add.) were added just so that the v.3.5 books would not seem like the regurgitated material they are.
As much as 2E was an excellent start, the new products just fill out the world so much better. The Dread Possiblity sidebars could launch a dozen campaigns alone!!!
LoL! If you say so, It is hard to curb one's choice of campaign settings and that is not my intent therefore I shall respectfully exit this discussion and leave you to your gaming in the Domain of Dread.
MSD keep up the good work. Your one of the only positive elements that RL v.3.5 has going right now.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
[b]Or do not purchase the RL v.3.5 books in the first place. An even better option.
That's the spirit!! Let's allow another great world to fall by the wayside by not supporting it. I have been buying Ravenloft products since I was in high school (some ten years ago), and I think it's great Ravenloft has been given a new life and that the people writing the new material are doing an excellent job; if you think 3rd Edition is so bad, I'd love to see you or anyone else do better...
(and thats bad when you live in a 4 story house with 4 bedrooms
)The Only RL manuals I don't own are the DMG and PHB, I'd already got the WotC 3.5 ones Plus the Arcana Unearthed Variant PHB.
I do agree though that the Guys at Arthaus are doing a good job, I am currently awaiting Gaz V with baited breath. But I am also glad that they have compacted the VRG to less books which in my opinion was a good move IMHO that is.
LicheHazel
God, I love the RL DMG.
And all the gazetteers, too.
Anyway, I find vampires to be both scary and humorous. I Don't remember where, but I saw a movie once where Dracula was having a dream about actually walking around in the sun.
He was all happy and saying to himself "Look! Look my evil servent! I am walking in the sun!" Just then, his "evil servant" blurts out "MASTER! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? YOUR IN THE SUN!" and then he is like noooooO! and starts burning up.
heh... well... anyway... what was this discussion about again?
:D
Also, I am an information freak and a stickler for accuracy so I like to have as much detail on the domain I'm running my adventures in as possible. Chapter two helps releave some of that tension by stating a very simple thing in a list of very clever devices: Its your world, deal with it that way. The reason maps in the 3.0 and 3.5 books don't give a scale is that the domains are as large as you want them to be. The Kargatane (which is unfortunately closed now) had given some advice on a scale for measuring distance between locales on the map.
Chapter three gets into the nitty gritty of running a Ravenloft adventure including advice on where in the dread realms to start out the game in. For example, a group of level 1 adventurers probably will get their brains sucked out if they start in Blutspur (That's if they don't die from being on the surface too long... horrible way to go :sad: ) However, Barovian encounters can pretty much run the gamut from level 1 to 20 depending on where they are. It also gives some optional rewards for PCs beyond xp and treasure, but I won't get into that.
Chapter four goes on to talk about how to utilize the vistani in your campaign and finally chapter six deals with magic and psionics (psionics do not escape the adjustments that magic undergoes).
What I've just mentioned hardly covers the surface of what's in this book. Let me just finish by saying this is definitely a good buy. :D
Seems to me RL is still going along at a fair clip under White Wolf(though I do miss not having any more adventures, whatever their "marketability"). Though the products tend to ship a little late we've been getting 3-4 products a year. Usually (not always) of outstanding quality. I didn't like Champions of Darkness and saw no reason to repurchase the 3.5 version of the RL PHB and MM. Otherwise I have been consistently pleased with the line of stuff we've been getting. The Arsenal was very good. The Guide to the walking dead was the best product I've purchased over the last three years or so. Can't wait for Bloodlines.
While RL may be a niche within a niche, it is a niche most people get automatically. Almost everyone enjoys "horror storries" to some degeree or another. Perhaps tellingly I know of more than a few non RL DMs who buy RL material to add a touch of creepiness to some of their bad guys.
If they keep it coming I will almost certainly keep purchasing.
-Eric Gorman
-Eric Gorman
Originally posted by ZeroMaverick2
I Don't remember where, but I saw a movie once where Dracula was having a dream about actually walking around in the sun.
He was all happy and saying to himself "Look! Look my evil servent! I am walking in the sun!" Just then, his "evil servant" blurts out "MASTER! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? YOUR IN THE SUN!" and then he is like noooooO! and starts burning up.
heh... well... anyway... what was this discussion about again?
:D
"I'm eating chicken, and I'm drinking wine! I'm cured!"
"No, master! You're not!"
"AAAAAAAAA!!!"
Mel Brooks's Dracula: Dead and Loving It starring Leslie Nielson as Dracula. Not the best parody, but it grows on you.
When it was time for 3E, WotC made a simple decision, GH was simple enough to act for a base world, FR was popular enough to survive on its own and everything else was cut. Even DL has been licenced out.
Then bring in White Wolf. They have done a good job, keeping true to the setting. What I think they have done a good job of is not making new domains and just adding more and more stuff. They have focused what was there already and fleshed it out. I don't know if anyone else agrees but at many times 2E ravenloft didnt seem to be a very cohesive collection of kingdoms, but with the especially the Gazetteers everything seems to be much richer and the domains interact with one another in an understandable manner.
Anyways, I've seemed to have rambled. In closing, 2E was sweet because everything was new and groundbreaking. In 3E the focus has been to flesh out what's there and a very good job has been done of it. I can't say much about 3.5, I dont have the PG and I haven't gotten a chance to look at the DMG, I might have more to say later.
-ateve, the Mighty Mouse
PS, I don't know why we need to thank MSD for 3.5, could someone elaborate for little old me?