Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 king_sloth Jun 02, 2004 16:10:23	My question is simple. Forgive me if this has been asked before. I'm new to this part of the message boards. But what is next for Greyhawk ?? Is it fading into nothingness ?? Why did WotC let the RPGA control it. Why is so much stuff happeneing for Faerun and Eberron and nothing for Greyhawk ?? Does anyone know an 'Official' reason as to why Greyhawk is being mostly ignored ?? Thanks to all !! King_Sloth
#2 faraer Jun 02, 2004 16:30:31	Wizards isn't producing Greyhawk sourcebooks because it knows how TSR hurt itself by publishing multiple campaign settings and thus segmenting the market; it has the Realms which sells sourcebooks and novels reliably and steadily, and Eberron which it's gambling will be a valuable property to license, and so no space in terms of product slots (which are limited by staff and what the market will bear) for the World of Greyhawk. Further, the world has no strong advocates in the company, either designers (who'd have minimal influence anyway) or managers. But with Erik Mona's Dungeon, the RPGA stuff, the fan stuff, and Gygax and Kuntz producing might-as-well-be-Greyhawk works such as Living Fantasy and Castle Zagyg, it's the best time for Greyhawk fans in at least five years.
#3 ranger_reg Jun 02, 2004 18:02:54	Originally posted by King_Sloth My question is simple. Forgive me if this has been asked before. I'm new to this part of the message boards. But what is next for Greyhawk ?? Is it fading into nothingness ?? I doubt it. There are many fan support for GH, even when TSR and WotC are not producing as many new material (aside from the material in the D&D core lines). Why did WotC let the RPGA control it. It was to be a major setting for RPGA members to participate in, and perhaps shape the world's future history, which can be memorialized in future print products. Unfortunately, RPGA depended on WotC for continued funding of their projects. When that funding got cut off, they have no big expense to make commercial print products other than The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Why is so much stuff happeneing for Faerun and Eberron and nothing for Greyhawk ?? For Faerun, not so much have happened other than updating the history based on the new novels. As for rules update, it is just a conversion to the 3e (and eventually 3.5e) ruleset. For Eberron, it's the result of the massive setting search contest that WotC held two years ago. You didn't think they invested such a contest only to make it a mini-game, eh? Does anyone know an 'Official' reason as to why Greyhawk is being mostly ignored ?? For some it is not being ignored, just as long as Erik Mona continues to pen the Greyhawk Journal, and as long as WotC continues to include Greyhawk material in D&D Core product and supplement lines. For others, they simply wish Greyhawk have the same campaign sourcebook treatment as Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and the upcoming Eberron, with a spattering of Greyhawk-labeled commercial print supplements.
#4 Mortepierre Jun 03, 2004 2:22:46	Besides, the Complete Divine book (just released) has a whole section on GH deities. WotC does continue to include GH stuff in their new books. It's just a matter for the fans to decide whether or not it lives up to GH standards...
#5 mortellan Jun 03, 2004 3:26:31	It's just a matter for the fans to decide whether or not it lives up to GH standards... Normally I'd say it doesn't. Anyhow seeing as we still get plenty of quality writing outside WotC I am beginning to complain less and think that its a boon for GH to be in a defunct product line. Somewhere down the road GH will still be there, buried like a cicada and maybe make a comeback to store shelves.
#6 Elendur Jun 03, 2004 9:46:03	FYI the Greyhawk content in the Complete Divine is complete filler. It's much less info than is in Deities and Demigods, and barely more than in the PHB.
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 03, 2004 10:37:22	I think the hands off approach to Greyhawk primarily stems from Living Greyhawk and the RPGA. For the most part the LG approved articles had to go through many hands before they were allowed into Dungeon. I think this is changing though because the LGJ is pretty much defunct and I have noticed that the newer Greyhawk specific stuff seems to ignore whether it occurs in Triad run areas. I hope this trend continues. Maure Castle is a huge step in the right direction, lets hope it ushers in a new boom in Greyhawk specific stuff for Dungeon.
#8 lincoln_hills Jun 03, 2004 13:01:31	Are sales everything? Are mass releases of product really the only thing that meets our approval? I'll admit, there are times when I (as a Greyhawk DM) feel a bit marginalized by WotC's emphasis on other campaign settings. But I don't think Greyhawk is seriously in peril. It was made the "core setting" because of its simplicity (HAH!), and that remains true no matter how many Eberron supplements are sold. To be honest, I like the slow rate of new developments in Greyhawk. The notion of having to "keep up with the Realms" is, I feel, a fallacious one. If I got something like "Return to Maure Castle" handed to me every month, I really think it'd lose a lot of its special appeal. As it is, I savor the thing... among other things, I see at least three encounters that have the potential to make my players cry. (Ah, bitter player tears... beverage of the gods!)
#9 protonik_dup Jun 03, 2004 20:36:15	I would be brave enough to say that with the upcoming changes in Dungeon, the Greyhawk approved articles and other material in Dragon that Greyhawk is about to become better supported than FR because they did say that they were going to include more Greyhawk specific material in Dungeon's Adventures and Dragon's Articles... Even then, the Living Greyhawk Journal provided almost as much page count month in and month out to almost equal the FR support and was less crunchy as well... Jason
#10 Elendur Jun 04, 2004 9:50:49	Originally posted by Lincoln Hills Are sales everything? Are mass releases of product really the only thing that meets our approval? I tend to agree. The only thing I miss is the Greyhawk-specific artwork that would come from a nice Greyhawk Campaign hardbound book. But we get some new art from the magazines as well, so I can't complain too much.
#11 qstor Jun 04, 2004 14:13:39	A letter writing campaign was started a few months ago but didnt work. I e-mailed Charles Ryan the new D&D Brand manager and he said that there are no plans for a Greyhawk hardback. We'll have to hope Erik Mona can do a softbound LGJ article book. Hopefully there'll be some new stuff in there too like Knights of the Hart Prestige classes. Mike
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 06, 2004 21:56:03	Well, we have the map coming, and other deities in Complete Arcana and Complete Stealth. So that's scheduled. Then, if Eberron tanks, maybe they'll reconsider publishing Greyhawk material. Then then, let's all hope for an LGJ compilation. *crosses fingers*
#13 avalongod Jun 07, 2004 15:36:32	I agree with some other posters that one of Greyhawk's advantages is its relative stasis (compared with Realms). There's a bit more opening for DMs to make there own world out of it. During 2E TSR seemed to put a big effort into making GH just like Realms, with multiple box sets detailing specific changes in the political situation in GH. But I don't think 2 settings with this sort of stuff going on was required. The end result is that, if GH is in "stasis" fewer books will be required. I doubt GH will go away, too many folks like it. It's more often the newer "trendy" settings like Kalamar (and perhaps Eberron) that have difficulty catching on for long. As for me, I miss the old Mystara setting...
#14 protonik_dup Jun 07, 2004 21:18:23	Kalamar is trendy? Kalamar is about as close to GH as you can get without being GH man... Jason
#15 Greyson Jun 08, 2004 1:29:22	What is next for the Flanaess? And I don't mean from a commercial standpoint. I mean, what meta-events are developing in the Flanaess? What does the future hold for the inhabitants of north-western Oerik? Do you ever get tired of the Scarlet Brotherhood? "You see a figure in red robes sneak out of the window as you enter the dimly lit room." Eyes roll around the table... "The Scarlet Brotherhood, again," the players lament. Is it time for these people to be defeated and their (tired) antics ended? What about Iuz? Has the Old One gotten "old" yet? How long can a Chaotically aligned despot keep his hold on such a far-flung "empire"? How long will the "good guys" bicker and murmur amongst themselves while the Lord of Pain mocks them from Dorakka? Is it time for evil to wear a new visage in the Flanaess? Can these traditional adversaries be, at long last, stamped out? If so, certainly a new evil will arise to take the place of the former. Perhaps evil can manifest from the east, wearing the grisly face of the fallen Aerdy in the former Great Kingdom. And, can Greyhawk still be Greyhawk outside of the Flanaess? When do we take Greyhawk beyond the Hellfurnace, Crystalmists and Yatils, into the expanse of lands westward? I am not advocating any of the above. Just "thinking out loud" to stimulate some Greymatter.
#16 Mortepierre Jun 08, 2004 2:33:47	As long as we're discussing possibilities... Methink Iuz's empire will break down sooner or later. You just can't expect a CE organization to survive that long, even with people ruthlessly enforcing the Old One's orders. The former Great Kingdom seems to be going for twin states. The one to the north fully LE, the one to the south playing nice to get other countries to help it. The Scarlet Brotherhood will eventually bite off more than it can chew and be forced to retreat but I don't see that happening for a long while yet. IMHO the new face of Evil will be the newly reorganized Horned Society. In the old days, they were easy to pinpoint. Nowadays, the new Hierarchs are all over the Flanaess and they have become an underground crime gang. Oh, and fanatics could become the new bane of the Flanaess. The Pale certainly looks like a worthy candidate for that. Given current events in the "real world", it wouldn't be that far-fetched either...
#17 zombiegleemax Jun 08, 2004 9:02:08	Off the top of my head for what next in the Flanaess: Iuz: The Old One has to have some sort of trick up his sleeve to preempt the backlash that will inevitably come his way and stave off the equally inevitable collapse of his empire. This has gotta be going for gold and full godhood. If he achieves this goal, then the implications for the entire Oerth are massive. The Great Kingdom: There's gotta be a reckoning between the two successor states - but later rather than sooner. There's bound to be a change of leadership in the North Kingdom soon. Grenell can't live forever and there's a number of interesting candidates for his replacement (have a look at the Naelex and North Province chapter of Ivid for details). Even so - the NK has to sort out Rinloru and the problems of Bone March before it can think about challenging Ahlissa. Meanwhile Ahlissa will continue to consolidate and spread it's tentacles of trade throughout the Flanaess, gaining infleunce. wealth and power. It's main problems are the NK to the North and the SB to the south. Of the two, the SB are the biggest. It's them they'll try to concentrate on first by building a fleet to challenge the SB hold of the southern seas. Keoland: The LG take on a resurgant imperial Keoland is spot on. Weak leadership led to the losses of the Wars. In this new dangerous age, Keoland must awake to the reality of its own power and strength. Consolidation on land (reeling in those truculent sattelite states or at least forging them into some sort of commonwealth) and expansion by sea is the key this time. The SB: Have ticked a lot of people off in the recent past and have presented themselves as targets for open war - which they are not the best at. There's a reckoning coming in the Azure Sea. Resurgent imperial ambitions in Keoland and Ahlissa will not tolerate the Azure Sea being a Scarlet Lake. Equally, the SB cannot allow powerful kingdoms like Keoland, Ahlissa or Nyrond to band together and wrest control of the northern approaches to its homeland from it (which was the reason it seized the states around the Azure in the Greyhawk Wars in the first place). Therefore a major naval war in the Azure is inevitable, as well as lots of behind the scenes string pulling by the Brotherhood (like subborning the Northern Barbarians to make trouble for the Solnor states and trying th release Vatun; embroiling Ahlissa and NK in a premature war; opposing the election of a new Rhola Sea King to the Throne of the Lion in Keoland; and who knows what sort of machinations in Nyrond (offing Lynwerd before he has an heir has got to be a priority), Furyondy (securing its people in positions of power once Belvor shuffles off this mortal coil), P. of Ulek (encouraging the humans of Gryrax to throw off their Dwur overlord?) and Greyhawk (depriving the Free City of its seaport in Hardby)?) Exploration: The Solnor states can inaugruate a new phase of exploration to the far side of Oerik across the Solnor and with the east and south Hepmonaland. if they can established profitable trading linksor even colonies, they can overcome the disadvantage of their isolated position and become serious players in the eastern and southern seas. If the great powers of the Flanaess can break the SB stranglehold of the southern gates of the Azure, then they may make contact with the states around the Pearl Sea, opening the door for trade and politiking. This will introduce a whole new element to the wars in the southern seas and elsewhere in the Flanaess (imagine what an Ahlissa which dominates spice trade with the south and has burgeoning colonies could do against an isolated North Kingdom, or Nyrond for that matter?). And not just the great states - Greyhawk, Irongate, Onnwal, Principality of Ulek, the Sea Princes, Sea Barons and Lords of the Isles - all in a scramble for trade and influence in the courts of the new lands. And what of the other lands have great states with an sudden new interest in the Flanaess? Of course all this exploration and squabbling will distract dangerously from threats from Iuz, the Horned Soc. Vecna, the oft forgotten Incabulos (who's got to have something up his sleeve (great plague anyone?)) and the cult of Tharizdun. As Sargent presaged in Ivid the Undying, the Greyhawk Wars were only a prelude to the Great War - the war that will decide not only the fate of the Flanaess but of the Oerth. The war that might see either the destruction of Iuz or the damnation of the world of Greyhawk. Either way, it somehow has to be followed by the Fading of Magic noted by Pluffet Smedger in 998 CY. May you adventure in interesting times. All IMO of course.... P.
#18 avalongod Jun 08, 2004 9:38:23	Originally posted by protonik Kalamar is trendy? Kalamar is about as close to GH as you can get without being GH man... Jason I just meant that IMHO we are unlikely to see much of Kalamar in 5 to 10 years or so. I could be wrong...
#19 caeruleus Jun 08, 2004 11:29:53	Maybe Iuz could join a 12-step group to get some help. That would have a significant impact on the Flanaess.
#20 protonik_dup Jun 08, 2004 15:13:22	Kalamar will be around as long as KENZERCO wants it to be. It has been a success for them and is one of the top selling product lines in D&D very consistently since it 3e debut. Kalamar has already been around for about 10 or 12 years as it was a rules neutral (with heavy 2e indications) setting boxed set in the early mid 90s and had several modules released for it (most now converted to 3e). Eberron shows all indications of lasting a good long while with most of the new video games using the world as its backdrop from the MMORPG to the RTS. This is what caused FR to become the leader of the pack and unlike the BR, DS or Ravenloft games (A FIGHTING GAME IN RAVENLOFT WTF) these look to be excellent in quality and design. Eberron will also be getting a stronger push, already we know of 4 products in the 6 months which is more than FR has gotten all year on top of HUGE exposure in Dungeon and Dragon Magazine in ways of modules and Eberron specific articles. Eberron also does something that FR did in its day, it appeals to the modern generation of fantasy enthusiasts. FR looked every bit like the fantasy novels of the time of its release. EBerron looks every bit like the fantasy RPGs that currently dominate the console market on PS2, XBOX and Gamecube, especially the Final Fantasy series (IX and XI) and anime like Escaflowne and Naussica Valley of the Wind. Jason
#21 lobotaru Jun 30, 2004 14:46:56	Well, my answer is simple: Greyhawk was never a static campaign world, so the fact that nothing new has come out of Wotc dealing with the greyhawk campaign setting means its practically dead. So, the RPGA has control of it. The fact that there isn't any record of what players are doing all over the Flanaess doesn't help much either. With all the player activity going on, the Old One should be a thing of the past, the Scarlet Brotherhood forced back into its little corner of the world, and the Horned Society should be a new major threat. Yet nothing changes in the Flanaess: It is possibly the only constant in an ever changing Oerth. The situation has done much to foster a sense of helpless dread in my players who all agree that the setting needs more flavor. I mean, I've only sparsely heard about the Blackthorns of the Gnarley forest and the fairy kingdoms in certain forests around Flanaess. The Gazetteer that came out a few years back was excessively bland, almost flavorless. Personally, if they want to keep the campaign alive, they have to do better than that.
#22 itrainedyoda Jul 05, 2004 9:51:53	I think WotC should do the right thing and transfer Greyhawk to the Eternal Care Facility. To continue to "support" Greyhawk as the default setting in the core rules is like selling life insurance at a wake. If people can't let go, there's the RPGA stuff but for me Greyhawk will always be pre-3E up on a pedestal where no one can mar it. Greyhawk is dead. Long Live Kalamar!
#23 zombiegleemax Jul 09, 2004 8:00:05	I feel that Greyhawk should be allowed as much room to breath as possible. Under the official releases through DUNGEON, through WotC supplementary material, or by fan-gnereated stuff, LG, whatever, which does include EGG's and my own material which we will resculpt for other companies. There's a great wealth of material which has built to this point and I see it as a positive force in influencing Greyhawk's future courses, whatever they be. Personally, I think that WotC should produce one or two books/addies per year if this would be cost effective for them. Especially hardbounds, as these tend to justify their print runs. I suspect Paizo might have the same idea in recompliling articles and material from future issues for later releases, possibly with additonal material. RJK
#24 zombiegleemax Jul 09, 2004 8:11:53	Greyhawk was sold to two Texan ranchers who moved to the south of France and are now acting as mimes on the busy Parisian streets, trying to earn enough money to publish 'Le Hawke' as a soft-porn derivitive of Midnight Cowboy. We wish them all the best. Hopefully, this will soon be in the FAQ.
#25 zombiegleemax Jul 09, 2004 8:45:40	I think it would be cool to see a book devoted to the Greyhawk Deities, Clerics and temple complexes, and whatever else could be included in such a work by relation. Also, any book of this depth which gave us some great hands-on material. RJK
#26 zombiegleemax Jul 09, 2004 14:23:23	As for Iuz and the Bandit kingdoms, The horned society has resurrected general hok to fight for them, in which case the city of hallorn just fell to hok (so sayeth the interactive at aggiecon ) Iuz himself is tinkering with a new breed of monsters...pretty much undead demons. Yeah, you got it, undead demons.
#27 zombiegleemax Jul 09, 2004 15:00:00	What's "aggiecon?"
#28 mortellan Jul 10, 2004 0:15:23	Originally posted by ZayeneII I think it would be cool to see a book devoted to the Greyhawk Deities, Clerics and temple complexes, and whatever else could be included in such a work by relation. Also, any book of this depth which gave us some great hands-on material. RJK Complete Divine was 'suppose' to be a boon for GH deities in that fashion. I own the book but I have yet to even read it seriously for its GH content. I would like to see a book like you described also with the worshipping particulars like vestment color, trappings, holy days/seasons, etc. like were described in many 1E sources.
#29 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2004 9:59:56	Most definately, Mortellan. And with relics common to their worship, holy sites, pilgrimage days and events, unique rituals and divine magicks, and the like, not to mention politics, and even adventure hooks for members and those who interface with them. Yummy.... I'd be willing to write such a compendium, even. Rob
#30 Mortepierre Jul 11, 2004 17:02:24	Originally posted by ZayeneII I'd be willing to write such a compendium, even. Rob Erik, I hope you're reading this.. ;)
#31 ranger_reg Jul 12, 2004 2:29:26	Will you do it for free? Will you allow Wizards to make the necessary editing, even if you disagree with the end result? Will you be silent if you find disagreement with the final product of your work? Will you be at the mercy of Wizards?
#32 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2004 3:22:16	Originally posted by ZayeneII Most definately, Mortellan. And with relics common to their worship, holy sites, pilgrimage days and events, unique rituals and divine magicks, and the like, not to mention politics, and even adventure hooks for members and those who interface with them. Yummy.... I'd be willing to write such a compendium, even. Rob Now *that* I would buy... assuming you kept to established canon :D
#33 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2004 3:23:43	Originally posted by mortellan Complete Divine was 'suppose' to be a boon for GH deities in that fashion. I own the book but I have yet to even read it seriously for its GH content. I would like to see a book like you described also with the worshipping particulars like vestment color, trappings, holy days/seasons, etc. like were described in many 1E sources. I'm actually rather impressed by the Complete Divine for it's GH content. I never thought they'd ever do anything like it. I figured they'd always stick to the 'core' of Greyhawk and never get into the sidelines or dig deeper than easy marketing would allow.
#34 MerricB Jul 13, 2004 23:43:02	The more advanced Greyhawk's timeline becomes, the less useful new Greyhawk material becomes for me. I'm currently running a campaign in the Great Kingdom - the original reason was to run RJK's "Maze" series as the conclusion to a major plotline, but I've a feeling that I'm going to enjoy my own storylines too much for that to happen - sorry, Rob! (A couple of ideas in the Maze series have greatly influenced the campaign, though. ) The year is 589 C.Y. By "official" Greyhawk chronology, the Great Kingdom has splintered by now, but that's not the case in my game. I gleefully ignore "Ivid the Undying", but I find the LGG to be great for mining material from. Complete Divine was extremely useful to me just because it allowed those little tweaks to be given to the deities. So it doesn't lay forth the dogma of Joramy in great detail? I don't actually care so much. I can find most of that in the LGG. What it gave me was a couple of new domains associated with many of the Greyhawk deities... and that is a little rules tweak that adds a lot to my game. The recent "Campaign Classics" issue of Dragon Magazine with the World of Greyhawk Regional Feats have also helped my campaign significantly, particularly the Celestial Scion feat with its descriptions of the personalities of the major houses in the GK. Dungeon Magazine, with its occasional Greyhawk adventures, also contributes greatly to the lore - I'm very interested to see if Erik will get a City of Greyhawk Adventure Path going... Cheers!
#35 mortellan Jul 14, 2004 4:23:19	I'm actually rather impressed by the Complete Divine for it's GH content. I never thought they'd ever do anything like it. I figured they'd always stick to the 'core' of Greyhawk and never get into the sidelines or dig deeper than easy marketing would allow. This is true. It makes me wonder what other upcoming products could potentially push the fringe details of GH into the core? There is still the complete rogue and wizard books to come.