A +1 Level Adjustment seems low for this. A +8 strength is an incredible advantage for the character to have... and if you do point-buy games, it means a player can easily get 26 strength at the start. It seems to me this should be +2 at least. A hill giant's LA is +4, which to me is a comparable type to normal D&D campaigns.
You can certainly argue that strength is an "overrated" statistic and that the right kind of game will render such scores useless. However, this would mean the game type would have to be skewed in favor of making strength useless, which punishes the other players as well as the player playing the half-giant. D&D already has this problem... three and a half editions and wizards/clerics still rule high-level games, unless the DM makes a concious effort to avoid situations where magic is required to accomplish anything.
The Dark Sun 3 netbook is otherwise a fine product in every respect, but every time I see this it makes me question the designers, and wonder what else may cause me some headaches down the road in the campaign.
Oh, also wondering, what kind of time frame are we looking at to see the Psionics converted to 3.5?
Adamantyr
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
+1 LA + +2 HD = +3 ECL. That's a big difference than a mere +1 LA. Plus, there's all those negatives to account for. Trust me, it's balanced. A starting Half-Giant is the equivalent level of a level 3 human, who has all kinds of OTHER abiities by that point.
Yes, I was aware of that when I made the post. If any other ability score was involved, I would find it easier to accept. But Strength is far too important to disregard. And I'm not even taking into account the +4 Con bonus they have as well.
I know scores of players, were I to give them the chance, who would turn out absolute combat monsters with this template. You could get on 28 points a 26 strength and a 20 constitution. That means they have 2d8+10 hit points, average of 22 hit points at 1st level. And if they're any class with a +1 base attack at 1st level, they have an average to-hit bonus of +9, with +8 damage single-handed, +12 using two-handed weapons. At 1st level.
To me, a +2 LA makes good sense. Consider that a Thri-Kreen is also a +2 LA with 2 hit dice. Seems to me the two races are at least equal, class and ability scores aside.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Yes, I was aware of that when I made the post. If any other ability score was involved, I would find it easier to accept. But Strength is far too important to disregard. And I'm not even taking into account the +4 Con bonus they have as well.
I know scores of players, were I to give them the chance, who would turn out absolute combat monsters with this template. You could get on 28 points a 26 strength and a 20 constitution. That means they have 2d8+10 hit points, average of 22 hit points at 1st level. And if they're any class with a +1 base attack at 1st level, they have an average to-hit bonus of +9, with +8 damage single-handed, +12 using two-handed weapons. At 1st level.
To me, a +2 LA makes good sense. Consider that a Thri-Kreen is also a +2 LA with 2 hit dice. Seems to me the two races are at least equal, class and ability scores aside.
Adamantyr
And then compare the Half-Giant to other large races. Don't forget - those scores are partly based on their size. TheHalf-Giant is +1 LA, and while it's true it *could* potentially be +2, it's more along the lines of borderline - but they don't have a +1.5 LA possible. There's all other kinds of things to think about when you see those stats. -4's to Int, Cha and Wis, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +8 Str. Now, +4 Str, -2 Dex and +2 Con comes from being Large, so let's strip that out, you get +4 Str, +0 Dex, +2 Con. Mental Stats are worth 1/2 that of Physical stats, so -4's on the three mental stats (or -12 all together) is equal to -6 for physical stats. +6 and -6 are equal, and thus ends up with a net balance of +0. However, you still end up with a LA of +1 because of the size increase to that of Large, and the rest is pretty much covered by the +2 HD they have. Presto, there's your ECL of +3.
Also - I haven't figured out quite why the Thri-Kreen was given a LA of +2 in the XPH (as compared to the +1 that race has in the MM2), other than the fact that all Thri-Kreen in the XPH are psionic creatures. As such, I still propose that *all* Athasian Races should be psionic creatures (the psi-like abilities and PP's, plus access to psionic feats) - everyone basically gets the Wild Talent feat as presented in the XPH (+2 PP, and access to psionic feats), which effectively could possibly raise a couple races an additional +1, like the Half Giant.
I know scores of players, were I to give them the chance, who would turn out absolute combat monsters with this template. You could get on 28 points a 26 strength and a 20 constitution. That means they have 2d8+10 hit points, average of 22 hit points at 1st level. And if they're any class with a +1 base attack at 1st level, they have an average to-hit bonus of +9, with +8 damage single-handed, +12 using two-handed weapons. At 1st level.
They're playing half-giant with a class? Fourth level, not first. There's a big difference.
And what is the half-giant Ftr1's Will save? Base +0 and most likely a Wisdom penalty if he bought high Str and Con, so a lesser confusion, sound burst, or color spray will destroy him.
Yes, he's going to do tons of damage. But unless the player scaled back his Str in favor of balanced scores, he's going to have crap saves. These kinds of unbalanced characters are a result of ECL races, not the half-giant in particular.
"The gamesystem lets my players min-max, and I can't control them to it's too hard to teach them how very bad it is to make 2-dimentional characters!!!!"Seriously, do you understand what's being said here yet, Adamantyr? Not trying to attack you, just trying to shed some light on the subject, hopefully in areas you haven't discovered yet.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Seriously, do you understand what's being said here yet, Adamantyr? Not trying to attack you, just trying to shed some light on the subject, hopefully in areas you haven't discovered yet.
Making personal attacks is a good way to lose people who may be interested in Dark Sun, but lose interest after they get ridiculed on the forum.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by superpriest
They're playing half-giant with a class? Fourth level, not first. There's a big difference.
Oh yeah, there's no doubt you have to give other races a leg up in levels to match the half-giant. I just think the LA should be +2. The half-giants in XPH are rather underpowered, but they still have an LA of +1.
And what is the half-giant Ftr1's Will save? Base +0 and most likely a Wisdom penalty if he bought high Str and Con, so a lesser confusion, sound burst, or color spray will destroy him.
If he was by his lonesome, yes, he would have some serious liabilities that could be taken advantage of. Usually, though, players will work in concert. A couple of spells to shield and beef up his liabilities prior to combat can make a lot of difference. Also consider that the rest of the players will likely be 1st-4th level so they match the half-giant player, which means they got quite a repetoire of abilities handy.
Yes, he's going to do tons of damage. But unless the player scaled back his Str in favor of balanced scores, he's going to have crap saves. These kinds of unbalanced characters are a result of ECL races, not the half-giant in particular.
Very true. Dark Sun has always been by its nature an ECL campaign, even in the old days, when you started at 3rd level. I just think the half-giant needs to be up a notch, that's all, and I wanted to know what the explanation for +1 LA was.
Adamantyr
Playtest the half-giant and make your own call. Personally, I think the HG is fine as is. But it's your campaign after all.
Oh yeah, there's no doubt you have to give other races a leg up in levels to match the half-giant. I just think the LA should be +2. The half-giants in XPH are rather underpowered, but they still have an LA of +1.
I don't know if XPH half-giants are underpowered; they just aren't Dark Sun half-giants. As Xlorep says, LA +1 is different from LA +1 on a 2-HD body. The HD count against ECL too, and they are pretty much wasted levels.
If he was by his lonesome, yes, he would have some serious liabilities that could be taken advantage of. Usually, though, players will work in concert. A couple of spells to shield and beef up his liabilities prior to combat can make a lot of difference. Also consider that the rest of the players will likely be 1st-4th level so they match the half-giant player, which means they got quite a repetoire of abilities handy.
Yes, he should be in a party of other 4th-level characters. So what? If they use their powers to cover the half-giant's weaknesses, they aren't using them on themselves. Any character is made better by benefitting from a group's buffs.
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Making personal attacks is a good way to lose people who may be interested in Dark Sun, but lose interest after they get ridiculed on the forum.
Adamantyr
What personal attack? I'm just looking for verification that it's been understood. It's an honest question. I'm not trying to attack you on this, I'm hoping to shed some light on the subject, and thus provide you with possible different perspectives on the subject to help you understand the reason behind the LA of +1. Now, if somehow, you see a genuine desire to help as a personal attack, or cannot see the, rather obvious joke I put in my post, and the sense of sarcasm in it as well (hint: the "" tag is a clue, as sarcasm is frequently misinterpreted on the forums), then forget it. Why would I want to help someone who shoves the help away and claims it to be a personal attack?
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Adamantyr,
Playtest the half-giant and make your own call. Personally, I think the HG is fine as is. But it's your campaign after all.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Oh yeah, there's no doubt you have to give other races a leg up in levels to match the half-giant. I just think the LA should be +2. The half-giants in XPH are rather underpowered, but they still have an LA of +1.
And WotC once again screwed up in their determination of LA+1 just like they did with the Half Ogre, which should be more on par with athas.org's HG and be a ECL of 3 (2 HD and +1 LA), not just a +1 LA.
If he was by his lonesome, yes, he would have some serious liabilities that could be taken advantage of. Usually, though, players will work in concert. A couple of spells to shield and beef up his liabilities prior to combat can make a lot of difference. Also consider that the rest of the players will likely be 1st-4th level so they match the half-giant player, which means they got quite a repetoire of abilities handy.
The system is designed to be able to account for this though...
Just ditch the natural armor and darkvision.
1/2 ogre is just way to small & weak to be a half-giant.