xlorep was thinking of using the WW storyteller system to run DS, I am not sure myself how this would effect the game. The system itself was at the time of 2e more flexible but still used a 'class' style concept, whereby your original choice would then limit what abilities you could use later on, and also had a tendency to use special abilities to perform most story oriented tasks that did not involve heavy roleplaying.
I have seen RoleMaster coversions done, which I think, may have a tendency to mechanicalise many of the interactions that PCs would have and at the same time make the campaign more deadly.
A fellow DM and myself have even toyed with the Conspiracy X system. This has a tendency to move the story into a influence/politics/puzzle solveing game. Good for city state based campaigns.
So the question is what systems have you guys used and how did it effect the 'feel' and direction of your game?
I'm also alot looser with x-class skills, as i think skills are a key way of developing individual flavors. I also allow players to take phobia's, or other flaws to gain bonus abilities... but they have to roleplay it, and as a DM, i use it to my advantage
One of my fav systems was Shadowrun, with the compainion.
No class/cross class skills. And the compainion allowed any char points to be spent on any facet of the character's stats
With storyteller, did you find the game was pulled in a certain direction? Curious as I did not get any real GM experience with the system.
Has anyone else played the ConX game or used the system?
You can also compare settings like Legend of the Five Rings, which has been presented in its original d10 system and the d20 system. It seems to work in both systems, and I like both systems, but certainly the d10 system seems a bit more true-to-form. It was designed specifically for the setting, after all.
Bringing this back to Dark Sun...
Dark Sun seems to me to be a system tied very closely with 2e. This is especially evident with defilers, who progressed to higher levels of magic than preservers.
Comparing printed products between 2e and 3e is very interesting in itself. Many elements of the setting have had some drastic alteration to fit the game system. Other elements are very similar.
Defiling is much different. You can't have that faster advancement due to the standardized level advancement chart of 3e. Now we have elements such as taint, which have not existed before.
The 3e cleric as presented in Dragon is not that much different from its 2e counterpart, believe it or not. I recently compared the elemental spell list, and while the 2e counterpart has more elemental spells, there aren't a lot more than what one would find in a domain. Plus, you can add spells to a cleric's spell list if you want more elemental spells.
I'm not sure how Dark Sun would work in another system. It seems very tied to D&D. Another system would have to take into account all the DS elements. In some ways, I think DS would make a great non-D&D d20 game. This would keep some of the D&D elements, but you'd be free to design classes that are true-to-form. Again, though, DS seems to be very D&D-related. I could easily see just creating a few alternate classes and calling it at that.
How would you guys tackle DS in other systems?
Stop rolling your eyes...
heh :D
I always found GURPS created a tendency towards very high dex chars. With little effort you can create a nigh unstopable char by maxing out on dex with a few skill points in the appropriate areas.
This is not to say the source books for GURPS were always some of the best around, just that it was a little unbalanced at times.
I have a tendency to create at least two chars for each new system I play. The first is a test/play with the rules. I go out of my way to build the most effective rorty char I can. Once done and I understand how it all works, I create my real char which is built from a concept or amusement starting point.
This also helps when running a game as you know what the players may devise to ruin your game
Originally posted by felixmeister
xlorep was thinking of using the WW storyteller system to run DS, I am not sure myself how this would effect the game. The system itself was at the time of 2e more flexible but still used a 'class' style concept, whereby your original choice would then limit what abilities you could use later on, and also had a tendency to use special abilities to perform most story oriented tasks that did not involve heavy roleplaying.
I have seen RoleMaster coversions done, which I think, may have a tendency to mechanicalise many of the interactions that PCs would have and at the same time make the campaign more deadly.
A fellow DM and myself have even toyed with the Conspiracy X system. This has a tendency to move the story into a influence/politics/puzzle solveing game. Good for city state based campaigns.
So the question is what systems have you guys used and how did it effect the 'feel' and direction of your game?
Well, back when I was thinking about it, I was gonna make the magic/psionic system more like how magick works in Mage. And it's not hard to just eliminate the class concept completely anyway, since realistically, people don't have all-inclusive, ability-defining "classes", nor do they have "levels" - those are roleplaying crutches that are used, and I've never been fond of. I've shuffled campaign settings through several systems - the gamesystem mechanics are always secondary to the story and setting itself.
WotC have converted 3 settings to 3e with different results:
FR and DL were and remain poor, and
GH was and remains great.
As for DS, the http://athas.org 3e conversion does not change the "flavour" for low-level gaming, but changes it greatly for high-level one. First of all, any dragon conversion I have seen makes completely different SKs, and I have failed to invent my better one. Moreover, any multiclassing is completely different in 2e and 3e. Multiclassed Thaxos Vordon of the "Tyrian Conspiracy" does not resemble the original 2e trader even slightly. Second, the change of game mechanics changed swift and decisive 2e combat into long exchange of harmless blows. The 3.5e "reduction" of "instant death" have made it even worse. With any reasonable conversion, 3e Nibenay, with the Dark Lens in his hands, and flanks protected by Hamanu and Lalali-Puy, has nothing to be afraid of when facing 3e Dregoth.
So, I repeat, the high-level play in DS3e is quite different with the original setting. As for conversion into any other game mechanics, I suppose it will have even worse problems.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
In some ways, I think DS would make a great non-D&D d20 game.
Been doing just that myself.
P.S. Dawn, GURPS rules! I actually used some of GURPS rules for my 2.5 re-make back in the day. The rules are actually on athas.org under the downloads section.
Originally posted by monastyrski
I play the 2e DS, and feel no reason to stop.
WotC have converted 3 settings to 3e with different results:
FR and DL were and remain poor, and
GH was and remains great.
For the record, WotC didn't publish/release the Dragonlance setting. Sovereign Press (Maraget Weis' company) did. Personally, considering what they had to do to get Dragonlance back from the evil clutches of the 5th age monstrocity that TSR released, it's been done quite well. I'm actually fond of Dragonlance, and was never impressed at all by either of the two settings that WotC did release themselves, Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
Sword and Sorcery Studios also did Ravenloft, which I can understand many of the changes they did to the world due to legal rights/copy permissions, all in all, it seemed ok.
P.S. Dawn, GURPS rules! I actually used some of GURPS rules for my 2.5 re-make back in the day. The rules are actually on athas.org under the downloads section.
Not that I can recall. Do feel free to refresh my memory.
Originally posted by Jaanos
One thing i think is lacking in D20 - flaws to go with feats. Thoughts?
Check out Unearthed Arcana.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Check out Unearthed Arcana.
Exactly.
I have heard good stories coming from RoleMaster games run in all kinds of campaigns, but don't have the books.
Never played GURPS.
I've actually grown quite fond of Alternity in the last few months, and have at one point thrown together some Dark Sun Alternity rules. They weren't too bad actually. Alternity has problems just like every other game system, but the flavour is almost built right into the game mechanics and there is tonnes of variation in the system. For instance, you know the "bell curve" rolling system in Unearthed Arcana? Where you roll a die instead of your usual static dice modifier? That came from Alternity. Although Alternity's version never used the d10 for some reason, its easily modified now if we use the Unearthed Arcana table.
"You're throwing a rock? Roll on table 252. 7? Okay, that says refer to table 100. Roll a d00. 29? All right...refer to table 252, again. 12. That's a critical; let me find the critical table....ooooookay. You tossed the rock through his head, blinding him in his left eye and knocking off his earring."
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
For the record, WotC didn't publish/release the Dragonlance setting.
Really? WotC think different (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000), and, though it may be an illusion, I have this illusory book on my bookshelf.
I'm actually fond of Dragonlance, and was never impressed at all by either of the two settings that WotC did release themselves, Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
All settings I like share the common feature - they are not fairy tales. DL is. FR, for the most part, too. GH and DS are not.
My friends would always tell me about this adventure they did while on top of a tower fighting 3 or 4 evil dragons, and the archer character took down one with one shot by rolling 100 or something and shooting it in the heart. Hehe, kinda silly, but it kinda matches the more cinematic fight scenes you see these days in the movies.
Originally posted by monastyrski
Really? WotC think different (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000), and, though it may be an illusion, I have this illusory book on my bookshelf.
Well, the later books, like Age of Mortals, were release by Soverign Press. Most likely, there was some legal reason that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting sourcebook was actually released through WotC - probably something due to the d20 license regulations. But, Soveriegn Press actually has the rights/permissions to release the d20 books for Dragonlance.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
It was pretty cool, but nothing that couldn't be imitated through good roleplaying. One nice thing was that a "1st level warrior" could conceivably kill a 900th level sorcerer with a lucky hit. Not good for the sorcerer (or the GM), but it definitely made the game interesting.
Possible with a Wound Points/Vitality Points system.
There's also the SAGA system conversion I did for DarkSun back in the day. It was mentioned to me at that time that folks internal at Wizards had taken a look and liked it.
As to the metasubject: changing systems changes the way a game plays, as what the mechanics you use prioritize or detail will guide and influence play.
What? What are you looking at? Stop throwing things at me!!
Originally posted by greyorm
There's also the SAGA system conversion I did for DarkSun back in the day. It was mentioned to me at that time that folks internal at Wizards had taken a look and liked it.
Never liked the SAGA system. Tried it, ran a game in it, realized that it was really quite annoying (and was frustrating my players who did not like that when they used up all the "good" cards for something, they were always pretty much destined to only have crap) - I know, there's a rule to make pretty much any card good or bad, but that was annoying.
As to the metasubject: changing systems changes the way a game plays, as what the mechanics you use prioritize or detail will guide and influence play.
But it doesn't change the setting. However you are right. different gamesystems provide different approaches to a setting, seeing it from different angles, and exploring different directions.
Originally posted by Korvar
It is? I can't seem to see it... which link is it?
http://athas.org/downloads/
S&P Summary and Addendum
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Not that I can recall. Do feel free to refresh my memory.
Not looking hard enough. ;)
S&P Summary and Addendum under the download section.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, the later books, like Age of Mortals, were release by Soverign Press. Most likely, there was some legal reason that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting sourcebook was actually released through WotC - probably something due to the d20 license regulations.
Yeah, it's called Sword and Sorcery got off lucky and were able to make all the money off the core Ravenloft book. WotC then saw this and put a halt to it, stating that if any other licenses were sold they would publish the core book, therefore making the most money because the core books always sell the most, and then allowing said new holder of IP to publish books from there on out.
One of the many reasons why Dark Sun has had such a tough time getting a buyer, that and for some odd reason WotC doesn't want to let go of the IP, but I think I know the reasoning for that, *cough*future movie*cough*.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Yeah, it's called Sword and Sorcery got off lucky and were able to make all the money off the core Ravenloft book. WotC then saw this and put a halt to it, stating that if any other licenses were sold they would publish the core book, therefore making the most money because the core books always sell the most, and then allowing said new holder of IP to publish books from there on out.
One of the many reasons why Dark Sun has had such a tough time getting a buyer, that and for some odd reason WotC doesn't want to let go of the IP, but I think I know the reasoning for that, *cough*future movie*cough*.
Yep. For settings like Darksun, Spelljammer, Mystara, Birthright, this all but guarentees that no third party will be interested in them, short of a nutjob who wins the lottery buying up the licenses.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Yep. For settings like Darksun, Spelljammer, Mystara, Birthright, this all but guarentees that no third party will be interested in them, short of a nutjob who wins the lottery buying up the licenses.
Even with this, Troy Denning tried to get DS, with cash....TWICE! Maybe more, haven't kept up since then.
I'm sure the other settings would have an easier time getting bought if someone wanted them bad enough.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
short of a nutjob who wins the lottery buying up the licenses.
Besides, I don't think Strutinan could get that lucky. ;)
/me runs
Couldn't a group of us go "Green Bay" on them and buy it as a group? How cool would that be: Dark Sun owned by the Dark Sun community.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Besides, I don't think Strutinan could get that lucky. ;)
/me runs
I don't know...I meant nutjob in a nice way...;)
/me runs away as well...
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Which makes me wonder:
Couldn't a group of us go "Green Bay" on them and buy it as a group? How cool would that be: Dark Sun owned by the Dark Sun community.
It'd be neat, but unlikely to happen. Don't forget, not only do you need money to *buy* the setting, but also money to set up a company to handle the license. Really, I doubt it would work, due in no small part to the fact that the gaming community isn't big enough (or unified!) to support such a venture (unlike a city, which already has the infrastructure in place to handle such a deal). I still think a nutjob winning the lottery is the more likely option...
/me keeps hoping to hit that $200 mil powerball so he can buy up all his favorite settings...
I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Rolemaster has pretty impressive tables, but man, if you think the combat system is drawn out for 3e...
"You're throwing a rock? Roll on table 252. 7? Okay, that says refer to table 100. Roll a d00. 29? All right...refer to table 252, again. 12. That's a critical; let me find the critical table....ooooookay. You tossed the rock through his head, blinding him in his left eye and knocking off his earring."
Yeah, and then you roll a 01 on the attack.. you fumble, lets look up non skill fumble, chart.. roll. . . 100? Hmmmm, "you trip over an imaginary, invisible, deceased turtle, take 10 hits and lose your next action"
rolemaster is a nice looking system on paper. There are charts for diffefent weapons, really nice critical charts and the like. The main problem is that where a single attack in D&D takes a miniscule amount (roll attack die, compare total to AC, then roll damage), an attack in RM requires you to roll D%, add in your attack bonus, and other positive modifiers, subtract the targets defense bonus (which usually required a calculator to speed this up), then cross reference a chart (which may or may not require flipping a few pages, since you have no less than 5 attack charts) to see just how much damage you inflict, and which type of critical you inflict.
Now, for the critical, you need to find the right page for what type of atack you just inflicted, find the right column (Crits ranged from A-E, and a T I believe), then roll another D%, find the entry, apply any extra damage as listed, and take note of the special conditions - Sometimes a "target dies after 4 rounds" - which doesn't really say if its a sudden unexpected death, so that the target keeps fighting, or if he falls, and then dies after 4 rounds. I once ticked off my group because a crit was inflicted on an Orc - he suffered some damage, and was to die after 2 more rounds - he finished his attack since the entry did not say otherwise, and killed a player's character
In any case, the main downfall for Rolemaster is that you can finish an entire combat session between 4 party members and a host of say 10 enemies in D&D/D20 before you can finish 1 round of combat between the same numbers in RM. Of course in RM there is a chance that creatures can take an instant death Crit instead of having to have their HP dwindled down... but it is still a much slower system overall.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, the later books, like Age of Mortals, were release by Soverign Press. Most likely, there was some legal reason that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting sourcebook was actually released through WotC - probably something due to the d20 license regulations. But, Soveriegn Press actually has the rights/permissions to release the d20 books for Dragonlance.
I think it had to do with the release of either the Oriental Adventures or the Ravenloft campaign book. One of those (I don't know which) was released by the contracted company, and the initial release did quite well indeed.
So WOTC decided that all future contracted settings would have the initial book (the "must have" book) released by WOTC, and let the contracted company have the scraps from publishing all the secondary books.
Actually, it was Ravenloft. Nytcrawlr answered that one already
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Never liked the SAGA system. Tried it, ran a game in it, realized that it was really quite annoying (and was frustrating my players who did not like that when they used up all the "good" cards for something, they were always pretty much destined to only have crap)
Yeah, that can happen with SAGA. The way to get around that is to perform actions that allow you to use those cards you're still holding as Trump. So, if all you have left is a bunch of one-point Dexterity cards, use it to your advantage. Perform some Dexterity-related action and you can draw a second card to add to your success. I note, however, that's not encouraged in the rules, and many traditional gamers tend to see it as "cheating."
So, unfortunately, while a step in the right direction regarding the use of cards and choice of success level, SAGA was still too similar to traditional, D&D-like games in its conception of play events and goals, and thus it's main advantage became a flaw, as the method of play didn't support the game mechanics (ie: it ended up being D&D...with cards!).
Part of the problem stems from having to resource-manage the cards, so you have good cards to use at any given time, rather than letting them work as a story-device, whatever they happen to be. Which would have fit the goals of SAGA better -- as a storytelling engine (rather than a task-resolution engine).
But it doesn't change the setting.
Correct (as I never said that). Talking about the play experience and direction, like you said.
Though...it can affect the setting -- look at how the rule changes from 1st edition DarkSun to 2nd edition affected the setting, particularly in regards to magic. Now look at how things are changing with 3rd Edition.
The setting remains mostly the same, but the rules-variance is creating differences in how things play out, how the characters of the setting would (and can) behave and interact.
As an example off the top of my head:
Pre-3E DS: no dwarven wizards. Rules didn't allow it. This means dwarves don't have wizards, never did, never will.
3E DS: dwarven wizards exist. The rules allow it. Dwarves can have wizards, probably have had wizards, and will have them in the future.
That could be a big change in the society and makeup of dwarves as a race, even if wizards are rare, and it's based on rules. I'm sure someone else can give a much better example...blah...I'm feeling just "eh" today. But anyways, does the point at least make sense?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Even with this, Troy Denning tried to get DS, with cash....TWICE! Maybe more, haven't kept up since then.
And folks wonder why I support creator-ownership.
Originally posted by greyorm
Yeah, that can happen with SAGA. The way to get around that is to perform actions that allow you to use those cards you're still holding as Trump. So, if all you have left is a bunch of one-point Dexterity cards, use it to your advantage. Perform some Dexterity-related action and you can draw a second card to add to your success. I note, however, that's not encouraged in the rules, and many traditional gamers tend to see it as "cheating."
So, unfortunately, while a step in the right direction regarding the use of cards and choice of success level, SAGA was still too similar to traditional, D&D-like games in its conception of play events and goals, and thus it's main advantage became a flaw, as the method of play didn't support the game mechanics (ie: it ended up being D&D...with cards!).
Part of the problem stems from having to resource-manage the cards, so you have good cards to use at any given time, rather than letting them work as a story-device, whatever they happen to be. Which would have fit the goals of SAGA better -- as a storytelling engine (rather than a task-resolution engine).
totally agree - it was a nice idea, with a bad execution. But, a lot of things that happened near the end of the TSR years could be summed up that way.
Correct (as I never said that). Talking about the play experience and direction, like you said.
Though...it can affect the setting -- look at how the rule changes from 1st edition DarkSun to 2nd edition affected the setting, particularly in regards to magic. Now look at how things are changing with 3rd Edition.
The setting remains mostly the same, but the rules-variance is creating differences in how things play out, how the characters of the setting would (and can) behave and interact.
As an example off the top of my head:
Pre-3E DS: no dwarven wizards. Rules didn't allow it. This means dwarves don't have wizards, never did, never will.
3E DS: dwarven wizards exist. The rules allow it. Dwarves can have wizards, probably have had wizards, and will have them in the future.
That could be a big change in the society and makeup of dwarves as a race, even if wizards are rare, and it's based on rules. I'm sure someone else can give a much better example...blah...I'm feeling just "eh" today. But anyways, does the point at least make sense?
That's where blurring setting and system comes in.... there are points where it becomes harder to distinguish between the two. And the setting could be adapted, but generally speaking, it doesn't get totally rewritten from changing the mechanics.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
I don't know...I meant nutjob in a nice way...;)
:heehee , ah ok, kewl.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The sad thing is this - there's a system that's even more complex than Rolemaster. Take the chart cross-referencing system from Rolemaster, and add the algebraic formulas and buckets of dice from shadowrun, then mix them together pretty evenly - and that's the system called "Universe" (if I remember correctly). Whoever made that system, really went the wrong way. It basically makes Rolemaster look like a stroll through the park (I might have the name off on this system.... happens when I'm tired and stuff).
Or the Alien system, were it took about one full game session to fight one freaking alien.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Welcome to the conversation, Heretic Apostate :D
Actually, it was Ravenloft. Nytcrawlr answered that one already
Actually it was RL and one other one, just can't remember what it was off the top of my head, but it wasn't OA, OA was published by WotC.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Actually it was RL and one other one, just can't remember what it was off the top of my head, but it wasn't OA, OA was published by WotC.
Gamma World, perhaps? That's the only thing that comes to mind.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Gamma World, perhaps? That's the only thing that comes to mind.
Possibly, I could be delusional too.
Thought there was one other, oh well.
Or the Alien system, were it took about one full game session to fight one freaking alien.
Wasn't that based on Pheonix Command? If so no bloody wonder.
30 sec of combat resolved in 8 hours. Break down combat into 1/2 second increments and add a system for tracking the path of bullets!
This was the system that made me decide that accuracy and realism was not the holy grail of RPing. If a rule doesn't immediately gall and is easy to use, then fine.
back to the 'ICE' stuff
Did like the crit tables and the glossaries in some Space Master products.
"hoofies: The hard things on the end of sheepies"
"sex: Ask your mother"
At the end of ultra serious rules sets, that stuff just cracks you up.
Actually it was RL and one other one, just can't remember what it was off the top of my head, but it wasn't OA, OA was published by WotC.
Heh first parsed that as Real Life and was wondering when WotC had purchased the rights to it.
Originally posted by felixmeister
Heh first parsed that as Real Life and was wondering when WotC had purchased the rights to it.
Evil Empire #90465321, heh, just kidding.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Check out Unearthed Arcana.
One is a flaw/perk system that keeps the bonus balanced with the penalty.
You choose the flaw/perk combination such as 'slow', movement drops by half but you gain 1 HP/level.
The corresponding flaw/perk is 'fast', move +10 lose 1 HP per level.
There is also a set of flaws that can be taken that give you a free feat per flaw taken. The flaws themselves are generally harsher that the feats published so far.
Cheers
) but i have downloaded most of the WOTC notes / changes etcOriginally posted by afromonkey
unearthed arcana was definitely one of the most interesting books for 3.5, but is there any kind of spells/skills conversion for dark sun -> gurps?
My 2.5 version had some GURPS elements in it.
http://athas.org/downloads/snpsummary.rtf