Just got back from looking around the Pied Piper Forums and I noticed that the grandaddy of Mystara (he from whom much of the "Known World" originated) Frank Mentzer is lurking around over there. He's willing to talk about his old creations (he specifically mentioned the Immortals), so if anyone wants to drop him a line or see what he's about nowadays, you might want to head over there. Maybe we can even convince him to peep in here.
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
Hey all-
Just got back from looking around the Pied Piper Forums and I noticed that the grandaddy of Mystara (he from whom much of the "Known World" originated) Frank Mentzer is lurking around over there. He's willing to talk about his old creations (he specifically mentioned the Immortals), so if anyone wants to drop him a line or see what he's about nowadays, you might want to head over there. Maybe we can even convince him to peep in here.
Cool, we should definately try to get him over here. Mentzer was (as you probably remember) subscribed to the MML for a while, and I even had a brief email correspondance with him. Seemed like a very friendly guy!
Håvard
Very cool. It just so happens that I am currently re-reading _The Book of Marvelous Magic_ by Frank Mentzer and Gary Gygax. So far, I have already slipped a Table of Plenty into my campaign. The players have declared it to be the most astonishing magical treasure that they have encountered in the game. Hopefully, Mr. Mentzer will drop by these boards to say hello.
Regards and Best Wishes,
Donald Eric Kesler
Originally posted by Cthulhudrew
Hey all-
Just got back from looking around the Pied Piper Forums and I noticed that the grandaddy of Mystara (he from whom much of the "Known World" originated) Frank Mentzer is lurking around over there. He's willing to talk about his old creations (he specifically mentioned the Immortals), so if anyone wants to drop him a line or see what he's about nowadays, you might want to head over there. Maybe we can even convince him to peep in here.
Actually, the "grandaddies of Mystara" are Tom Moldvay and David "Zeb" Cook. They created the setting. They co-wrote the first module to really detail the setting - X1 Isle of Dread. They each also wrote a number of the other modules set in the Known World; Moldvay wrote B4 The Lost City and X2 Castle Amber, among others, and Cook wrote X4 Master of the Desert Nomads, X5 The Temple of Death, and B6 The Veiled Society.
That said, Mentzer is a great game designer, who had his hand in a ton of great products over the years, including of course the five box set of Classic D&D and his participation in coversations on the Net is very, very cool.
R.A.
Originally posted by rogueattorney
Actually, the "grandaddies of Mystara" are Tom Moldvay and David "Zeb" Cook. They created the setting. They co-wrote the first module to really detail the setting - X1 Isle of Dread. They each also wrote a number of the other modules set in the Known World; Moldvay wrote B4 The Lost City and X2 Castle Amber, among others, and Cook wrote X4 Master of the Desert Nomads, X5 The Temple of Death, and B6 The Veiled Society.
That said, Mentzer is a great game designer, who had his hand in a ton of great products over the years, including of course the five box set of Classic D&D and his participation in coversations on the Net is very, very cool.
The story of who actually created Mystara is quite complex. You are correct in that Moldway and Cook were the ones who first came up with setting material that eventually would find its way into the world that would become Mystara. (Unless you count Blackmoor. ) Mentzer OTOH, organized the whole thing by taking Moldway and Cook's creation and placing it into a larger setting. Mentzer's books presented the planetary map of Mystara aswell as the cosmology with the planes, galaxy, immortals, demi-human relics etc.
Then again, Bruce Heard and Aaron Allston took the whole thing to a new level with the Gazetteer Era products. Other writers were involved in this aswell, but Heard was the product manager aswell as author of some of the most influential Gaz'es. Allston wrote other major gaz products including Dawn of the Emperors. He also created the Hollow World, and is the author of the Wrath of the Immortals box.
So, quite a few brilliant people worked on this setting of ours. Who we should give the most credit is hard to agree upon, but since this thread is about Mentzer, Id say that he was indeed an important factor in the development of Mystara, even though some of the ideas he introduced later were abandoned as Mystara grew.
Håvard
Originally posted by havard So, quite a few brilliant people worked on this setting of ours. [/b]
Absolutely correct. What was Bruce Heard's quote from the recent Dragon article? Something to the effect of "Working on Mystara was like working on a who's who of the 90's gaming community." The list of authors that worked on Mystara projects from about '86 to '94 is quite, quite impressive - Carl Sargent, Ed Greenwood, Jim Bambra, Aaron Allston, etc., etc.
Oh, and please don't take me wrong. I wasn't trying to minimize Mentzer's contributions at all. It's just that his contributions to OD&D tended to be on the rules side of things, rather than the setting side of things.
R.A.
Some excerpts:
Is it ever explained how the FIRST immortal gained his status?
Well of course not. Even the (current) immortals don't remember. Tho there has been mortal worship of Gaea the Earth Mother as The First, the Immortals Set removes that possibility: planet-sized beings are of the Sphere of Matter, and relatively common (well, at least as sentient planets go; depends on your neighborhood I guess). Similiar speculations about primordial Chaos are again 'way below the mark.
There are, however, tangential references in Immortals to an even greater group of immortal beings who exist (or once existed) beyond even the conventional immortals, perhaps beyond the 5th dimension, or beyond the known Multiverse, or whatever. Wherever They are, they don't want to be disturbed, and withdrew without leaving so much as an answering machine, let alone proof of Their existence.
So even if you can get your head around the details presented in Immortals and grasp the entire Great Scheme Of Things, the story does not come to an end; there is always Something More.
and:
How much of your rules (referring to all five boxed sets) meshed, or at least were ported directly from the original (brown/white box) game? How much of your own material went into the boxed sets?
They were all supposed to mesh neatly with OD&D... while leaving Blackmoor out (legal issues). I did use them for the source material.
Also for legal reasons I was listed as "compiler" or "editor" in most of the sets; TSR had enough problems between Gygax & Arneson, no sense giving me grounds to add my name to the list. However, the further it went, the greater the amount I 'compiled' from my own ideas; there's very very little in Masters and nearly nothing in Immortals that had ever appeared before.
(Re Immortals, the above may be for good reason; it's one of the strangest mainline game products ever published. *I* grasp it fully and use it all the time in my AD&D campaign, but few others have ever found a way to bridge the gap between mortal PCs and their immortal futures. I don't use the methods I included therein... I've added considerably to the starting framework given in the set. Praps I'll put it in Dragonsfoot some time, it would never be published.)
I really *must* note that for Companion, I pondered the situation greatly since I had many things to do at that point, and something had to give. So although I wrote most of it, I turned over one section lock stock & barrel to a pair of designers who showed interest in carrying the ball for a few downs: Gary Spiegel and Doug Niles. I directed 'em and gave specific instructions, essentially as follows: give me a fast, easy-to-run, uncomplicated but expandable, comprehensive but not tedious, all-new state-of-the-art method for handling REALLY large battles, something that newbies could embrace but that old-schoolers could use without squawking. I tweaked it along the way and kept my nose in, of course. I think they did a great job with the War Machine. The design gave someone the idea of doing an AD&D version I believe, i.e. BattleSystem.
Mr. Spiegel left TSR within a year, as I recall, axed in one of the cutbacks (tho he may have worked with the TSRefugees, aka Pacesetter Publications, for a time; I don't remember). Doug of course went on to find his calling in novels for TSR and others.
Anyone interested should head over to Q&A with Frank Mentzer.
I'd probably also cut down on the levels somewhat. Few have the time or interest to work their way from 1st to 36th; 25 would seem a reasonable compromise, with a corresponding compression of ability escalation. I'd also tone down the urging toward regional leadership, logical as it may be; some personality types reach Greatness without becoming leaders of the masses. It's an avenue but should not be advocated so strongly.
Interesting, particularly in light of our generally accepted "3rd Edition" conversion efforts, where we have compressed the upper levels down somewhat.
I also tend to agree that the dominion rules were possibly emphasized a bit too much in the Companions rules set, despite some efforts at allowing "wandering" adventurer types (Magist, Knight, etc.) Those latter capitulations didn't seem to have much more offered to them outside of their entries in the class descriptions, while a lot of space (and the Module/Adventure offerings) was devoted to dominion ruling.
(Although, it must be noted, I loved the dominion rules and concept.)
The only other thing that comes to mind is Classes. While various archetypes (a concept that was new in the 1950s, btw) are appropriate, those given are obviously Western European (that being the cultural heritage of most readers) and specifically Medieval. But rather than tossing that for a reorientation that would probably be TOO broad, I'd include extensive notes on optional cultural modifications, with examples, and guidelines for creating your own heroic classes of any type you want -- cavalier and barbarian (from AD&D of course), the many sub-varieties of religious persuasions, the notably different mindsets of military Planners vs Doers, and perhaps even ::quiver:: Politicians. It's fantasy, so anyone can become a Hero.
This really would have been an interesting addition to things, and one I'd really enjoy seeing. I'd say that a little bit of this was attempted in the Gazetteers later on (Rake, for instance), but not to the extent to which Mr. Mentzer suggests here. This actually touches on some recent posts here, particularly by Havard (the Western Monk and Knight threads that he has started elsewhere on the board).
Anyone have some ideas on doing something like this for OD&D classes?
[EDIT] A couple of posts later, he mentions that he would probably do away with the race/class combination, and separate the two (allowing demihumans to take human classes), again, an evolution that the Gazetteers and (notably) Princess Ark articles put into implementation.
He's talking about Dave Trampier, isn't he? :D
He's talking about Dave Trampier, isn't he? :D
That's hilarious! Dave was really an Old One. It explains so much!
(Related note: I once read an article online- Coffee, Cigarettes, and Speed Bumps that went into the mystery of Trampier's disappearance. From what I've read, it was later confirmed to be the same Dave that worked at TSR.
I think I like your idea better, though. Wonder what that makes Wormy?
This really would have been an interesting addition to things, and one I'd really enjoy seeing. I'd say that a little bit of this was attempted in the Gazetteers later on (Rake, for instance), but not to the extent to which Mr. Mentzer suggests here. This actually touches on some recent posts here, particularly by Havard (the Western Monk and Knight threads that he has started elsewhere on the board).
Anyone have some ideas on doing something like this for OD&D classes?
implementation.
I like these excerpts that you've found by Frank, Andrew! I don't always agree with Frank's comments on his own works, but these are things that I really would have liked to see included in his boxed sets.
The idea of Variant Classes was formalized in 3E, such as the Urban Ranger from UA. However, they clearly existed in an early form in OE as well, such as the Class options from the Ethengar Gaz. The Rake and Forrester also may be considered Class variants.
I would have liked to see discussions of possible variant classes in OD&D as well as 3E for Mystara.
BTW, I wasnt familiar with David Trampier, but thanks to google that was cleared up.
Håvard
Its worth reading through the Q&A with Frank over in general discussion at Dragonsfoot, and his input in the classic D&D section there has been welcome.
I'd be interested to see Frank here (if only to hear his input in a place not so desperately childish about distinctions in editions of the game as Dragonsfoot is), but I don't see him being that excited about a Mystara board.
I'd be interested to see Frank here (if only to hear his input in a place not so desperately childish about distinctions in editions of the game as Dragonsfoot is), but I don't see him being that excited about a Mystara board.
True, and I was surprised to hear about his dissension with Bruce (although he mentions he doesn't ever want to talk about it, which I can understand). I do recall that he posted on the Mystara Mailing List for a bit a couple of years back, though, so I don't think he's got anything against Mystara itself. I do think, from reading his posts, that he doesn't have a lot of time to devote to message boards, and that he prefers to just have the one to deal with, so I think the best bet to reach him is there on Dragonsfoot. We could always invite him, though.
(if only to hear his input in a place not so desperately childish about distinctions in editions of the game as Dragonsfoot is),
Amen Cab, you should've seen what I told a mod there about what I thought of their policy.
I haven't been banned...yet. But then again, Ii have not been trying that hard to get banned lately. ;)
True, and I was surprised to hear about his dissension with Bruce (although he mentions he doesn't ever want to talk about it, which I can understand). I do recall that he posted on the Mystara Mailing List for a bit a couple of years back, though, so I don't think he's got anything against Mystara itself. I do think, from reading his posts, that he doesn't have a lot of time to devote to message boards, and that he prefers to just have the one to deal with, so I think the best bet to reach him is there on Dragonsfoot. We could always invite him, though.
Maybe I'm being pathetic, but I find these little intrigues of TSR's past quite fascinating. I've never heard Frank mention Bruce at all, which may support what you guys are saying, though he has been more outspoken on others, like Ms. Williams.
From what I understand, Bruce must have been one of the people who actually benefited from the time when TSR was under the control of Williams, becoming the D&D Product manager, and eventually becoming promoted even higher up in the system before he quit after the WotC takeover when he didnt want to move from Genova. Also, Frank was never given any credit in the RC which is really mostly comprised of his works, although excellently edited by Aaron Allston. I know Frank would have liked to see some recognition there.
I'm not going to pick any sides in any of these old conflicts though. Its sad when not everyone can be friends, but thats usually what happens when brilliant people have to work with eachother.
I truly appreciate it when these old gurus share their thoughts on the game and setting though. Both Frank and Bruce have been participating on the MML in the past and I enjoy Frank's thoughts on OD&D. Frank did have a great influence on Mystara; the maps from his sets were the ones that formed our world's geography and much of the cosmology was laid out in the Companion, Masters and Immortals sets. From there on, Bruce and Mr. Allston were without a doubt the greatest influences in the development of Mystara.
Cab, I was surprised to hear your assessment of the DF forum, you've been there alot longer than me. At any rate it is better than the OOP forum over here. There, I really have to restrain myself at times not to get into trouble.
Håvard
Amen Cab, you should've seen what I told a mod there about what I thought of their policy.
I haven't been banned...yet. But then again, Ii have not been trying that hard to get banned lately. ;)
Yes, I've had those run-ins there. Irritating as hell, if it wasn't for the pervading sense of defeatism and negativity, it would be twice the board it is; it's still good, but it seems such a waste that it isn't better.
Still, it has attracted Mentzer, Gygaz and Marsh, and in itself that's kind of spectacular.
Maybe I'm being pathetic, but I find these little intrigues of TSR's past quite fascinating. I've never heard Frank mention Bruce at all, which may support what you guys are saying, though he has been more outspoken on others, like Ms. Williams.
I believe (although I could be wrong) that Frank coined the phrase 'POG' for her (person ousting Gygax).
From what I understand, Bruce must have been one of the people who actually benefited from the time when TSR was under the control of Williams, becoming the D&D Product manager, and eventually becoming promoted even higher up in the system before he quit after the WotC takeover when he didnt want to move from Genova. Also, Frank was never given any credit in the RC which is really mostly comprised of his works, although excellently edited by Aaron Allston. I know Frank would have liked to see some recognition there.
It goes a wee bit deeper than that, there's a little more animosity. Frank has said that he intends not to speak about it, but there have been a few slips from that on Dragonsfoot. But personally, I don't like to go digging; its their business, and I'm as well off not knowing as knowing.
I'm not going to pick any sides in any of these old conflicts though. Its sad when not everyone can be friends, but thats usually what happens when brilliant people have to work with eachother.
I truly appreciate it when these old gurus share their thoughts on the game and setting though. Both Frank and Bruce have been participating on the MML in the past and I enjoy Frank's thoughts on OD&D. Frank did have a great influence on Mystara; the maps from his sets were the ones that formed our world's geography and much of the cosmology was laid out in the Companion, Masters and Immortals sets. From there on, Bruce and Mr. Allston were without a doubt the greatest influences in the development of Mystara.
Indeed; his input into Mystara has been immense; we have to remember that Mystara grew out of the classic D&D game, specifically the companion, masters and immortals rules; we use Franks particulat style of cosmology, we use monsters from his campaigns, we use concepts that are his all of the time. The map isn't really his, and he hasn't got a lot of interest in the known world, but Mystara would be an oddly different place without him.
Cab, I was surprised to hear your assessment of the DF forum, you've been there alot longer than me. At any rate it is better than the OOP forum over here. There, I really have to restrain myself at times not to get into trouble.
Håvard
It is better than the OOP forum here, much, much better, it is I think unquestionably the best OOP site on the net, but it could be better yet. It has a tendency to stray from being pro OOP into being anti 3e; the mods have tried to constrain that a bit, but I rekon they're rather split on whether thats really what they want. Anyway, they know my opinions on the matter very well, and I know that a number of them hate what I've said to them on the matter.
It goes a wee bit deeper than that, there's a little more animosity. Frank has said that he intends not to speak about it, but there have been a few slips from that on Dragonsfoot. But personally, I don't like to go digging; its their business, and I'm as well off not knowing as knowing.
Probably a good idea. I have usually avoided participating in such discussions (about various former game designers) also, since it only can result in creating more bad blood. Noone needs that.
Indeed; his input into Mystara has been immense; we have to remember that Mystara grew out of the classic D&D game, specifically the companion, masters and immortals rules; we use Franks particulat style of cosmology, we use monsters from his campaigns, we use concepts that are his all of the time. The map isn't really his, and he hasn't got a lot of interest in the known world, but Mystara would be an oddly different place without him.
You make some good points. Mystara grew out of the Mentzer D&D. He created the skeleton or the framework of the setting by creating the game. I always liked how Mystara took advantage of all the options presented in Classic D&D.
These days I prefer games where the rules are created to model the setting. Mystara was created the opposite way, but the effect was pretty much the same.
It is better than the OOP forum here, much, much better, it is I think unquestionably the best OOP site on the net, but it could be better yet. It has a tendency to stray from being pro OOP into being anti 3e; the mods have tried to constrain that a bit, but I rekon they're rather split on whether thats really what they want. Anyway, they know my opinions on the matter very well, and I know that a number of them hate what I've said to them on the matter.
I find its hard to be one of those people who loves both editions and yet sees strengths and weaknesses with both. Some times I feel it would have been much better to pick a camp and conformed to that. Or just played FR with 3.5E, trying to recreate the feel of the Baldur's Gate CRPGs... :P
Håvard
Mr. Mentzer (or, as he insists on being called, Frank) is active over on Dragonsfoot. A really interesting and knowledgeable guy, and although he's got a good link with Mystara, he doesn't use the setting (his games are set in Aquaria, located on the same world as Greyhawk), and he doesn't have a great deal of interest in the GAZ series.
It's really too bad that the Aquaria GH link is so strong. If not we could have used it as a supplementary extra continent for Mystara as a tribute to Frank...
Håvard
It's really too bad that the Aquaria GH link is so strong. If not we could have used it as a supplementary extra continent for Mystara as a tribute to Frank...
Håvard
There's no reason why you couldn't use it in that way, although we'll have to see what it looks like; I gather that if you ask Frank he has some info on aquaria that he's been known to send out to people. It'll certainly have the right kind of cosmology to tie in with Mystara.
There's no reason why you couldn't use it in that way, although we'll have to see what it looks like; I gather that if you ask Frank he has some info on aquaria that he's been known to send out to people. It'll certainly have the right kind of cosmology to tie in with Mystara.
Good idea! I just pm'ed him for it over at DF. Are you saying the cosmology of Aquaria fits better with Mystara's than with Greyhawk's? This is really interesting!
Care to give a brief overview of Aquaria for us?
Could it fit anywhere on Mystara?
Håvard
Good idea! I just pm'ed him for it over at DF. Are you saying the cosmology of Aquaria fits better with Mystara's than with Greyhawk's? This is really interesting!
Care to give a brief overview of Aquaria for us?
Could it fit anywhere on Mystara?
Håvard
I'm afraid that to do Aquaria justice I'd have to go pootling off to Dragonsfoot and do the same as you, i.e. ask Frank
But I understand from talking to Frank over there that he uses his own cosmology in the game, which is of course the same that he wrote into the classic D&D game, and which was such a big part of the Masters and Immortals rules.