:OMG! Lol I tought Darkon was as big as russia...
Then ravenloft is really a small setting!
Originally posted by The_Jester
The entirety of the Core occupies less space than Switzerland. Its pretty darn tiny.
Actually, in third edition it's physically as big as the DM wants it to be.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Actually, in third edition it's physically as big as the DM wants it to be.
True John, but given the Gazetteer series gives us the number of inhabitants per domain, the bigger a DM stretches the setting, the more underpopulated it becomes.
Note that I don't complain. I always liked the fact that you didn't need weeks of travel to get across the Core
Low populations contribute to the atmosphere of the game. Cities in Ravenloft are small, intimate, and isolated. Everyone knows everyone else. It makes for a markedly different gaming experience compared to most gaming worlds. -Most- gaming worlds have unrealistically high populations, IMHO.
But there's no accounting for taste, and no reason to feel beholden to the numbers.
The only problem with low population is that monsters have an harder time to hide from human like a red widow cannot stay too long in the same town whitout being caught.
But the low population mean nobody is here to help you muahahaha
The only problem with low population is that monsters have an harder time to hide from human like a red widow cannot stay too long in the same town whitout being caught.
But the low population mean nobody is here to help you muahahaha
Well, with that said, here is my ascended smily face
Originally posted by The_Jester
The entirety of the Core occupies less space than Switzerland. Its pretty darn tiny.
I don't know about that...I've read that Kartakass is the size of Switzerland, but never the whole Core.
And I once balked at the low population of the Core myself, but I've recently come to accept that it is very realistic, for a cold, slightly-savage world without modern medicine.
Which actually puts it as slightly larger than Switzerland.
This is only counting the seas however, Switzerland still has more raw land area by 3,000 square miles (36k vs 39k).
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html
Further info:
There are 490, 000 humans and demi-humans in the Core. Switz has 7,450,867. But that is with modern medicine. In 1815 the population was still larger than the Core at 1,558,000 peeps. Of course, that was still 150+ years more advanced than the folk of Ravenloft. Since populations tend to double every 100 years it might be as low as 584, 250, which tends to make the Core look about right.
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
Low populations contribute to the atmosphere of the game. Cities in Ravenloft are small, intimate, and isolated. Everyone knows everyone else. It makes for a markedly different gaming experience compared to most gaming worlds. -Most- gaming worlds have unrealistically high populations, IMHO.
I firmly agree here. Most campaign setting have these utterly enormous populations, populations that are similar to modern populations, rather than the populations of medieval European countries, which typically topped out around fifty to ninety thousand. As has been pointed out, London's population in 1500 - well after that period, and a huge city to boot - was 40,000.
Eberron, which I just picked up this last week, is a prime example of this. The world feels too big and too crowded at the same time. The main continent, Khorvaire, is about the size of continental Asia, and most of the countries have populations in the millions. It's kind of annoying after getting so used to Dark Sun and Ravenloft, both of which are intimately familiar and cozy.
In my campaign, by the way, I usually set the size of the Core at the size of the Ohio River Valley (about the size of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky put together).
Hida Jiremi
(Jeremy Puckett)
Rome nearly reached 1 million by about 100 AD, but after the fall of the Western Empire it had shrunk to 13,000.
Populations in Europe were bigger than you think:
Population Estimates (in millions) at specified times 500-1450
AREA 500 650 1000 1340 1450
Greece/Balkans 5 3 5 6 4.5
Italy 4 2.5 5 10 7.3
Spain/Portugal 4 3.5 7 9 7
Total - South 13 9 17 25 19
France/Low countries 5 3 6 19 12
British Isles 0.5 0.5 2 5 3
Germany/Scandinavia 3.5 2 4 11.5 7.3
Total - West/Central 9 5.5 12 35.5 22.5
Slavia. 5 3
---Russia 6 8 6
---Poland/Lithuania 2 3 2
Hungary 0.5 0.5 1.5 2 1.5
Total -East 5.5 3.5 9.5 13 9.3
TOTAL EUROPE 27.5 18 38.5 73.5 50
Most "typical" D&D campaigns emulate a fourteenth/fifteenth century Europe. As you can see, the population statistics were affected by the Black Death, but France was almost 20 million in 1340.
EDIT: Ah, damn table didn't paste in properly. Well, you get the picture.
Marco Polo journied there and told everyone the size and scope along with the luxuries and no one belived him.
There have been and can be huge populations, they're just few and far between.
Just remember to adjust the population with every increase in the size.
However, these are not the cultures that Ravenloft seeks to emulate. And, again, there is the atmosphere issue.
But I maintain that when you're the DM, you should run the game how you wish. A very good friend of mine ran a game recently with massively populated cities in Ravenloft simply because he wanted a more cosmopolitan feel. There is something exciting about being in a big city, and that's part of the reason that we play.
Everyone knows that you can run a game with high populations in cities. Because most people do. But my point is that it is not only -possible- to run a game with lower populations but some ways it provides great verisimilitude for the game. That's all.
Originally posted by The_Jester
The maps from the Black Box to Domains of Dread clearly place the Core at 180 miles by 200 miles. . The Sea of Sorrows and the Nocturnal Sea add about 80 and 90 miles respectively. So it is essentially 350m x 200m for a total surface area of 70, 000 miles.
Which actually puts it as slightly larger than Switzerland.
This is only counting the seas however, Switzerland still has more raw land area by 3,000 square miles (36k vs 39k).
*checks* Hmmmm...right you are.
I can't say I approve of this in the slightest, but whatever. My house rules will always have the Core approximately as big as Europe. :-*
Just remember to adjust the populations every time you adjust the scale.
Its true, the more people the higher level and more wealth they're going to have...but ravenloft is not a high level environment, you don't have epic characters running around or even lots that are higher than 15. Those characters are legendary.
Personally I like how the levels run in ravenloft. The lower the levels the better 'real' feeling of the populations you get. Ravenloft is also a unique realm...many of the populations sprang up over night, and I don't think many of the lands are very prosperous. And even though matters of healing are greatly advanced for the cultures (with clerics) all of the evil things of the land tend to more than make up for that.
I haven't met a really big city that I liked...with the exception of Lankhmar...and even then there would be a lot of stuff I'd have to change about it.
I like just about all the ravenloft cities.