After all this discussion about what's the best about Greyhawk, what is the worst? Ideally, I'd like to hear what's worst about the content out there and not more complaints about lack of official support (which isn't so much about what's the worst about Greyhawk and rather what's worst about the company that produces Greyhawk official stuff).
I think the least fun part of Greyhawk is (to me) the large number of deities. I have heard a lot of complaints about the huge number of FR deities, but greyhawk is no slouch either. The dieties in the LGGazetteer alone is too much to my taste and that is only a small part. I have seen many more deities (like the Touv pantheon and all of the (demi) gods in the D&D releases.
It is not that I really dislike this, but it would be the worst point in my mind.
Even that big map in Dragon Annual #1 was more a joke than anything (not in terms of the shape of continent but in terms of the countries described).
But it's also kind of annoying to have some really weird esoteric gods like Bralm and Dalt. It's like there are certain areas of cultural overlap (mainly weather/winds, the sea, and hills/mountains) and some then some large gaps.
In the end, my players get pretty confused by them. I think this tends to lead DMs and players to focus on just a few so that things don't get overwhelming. Maybe paring down the list to a more manageable level initially would lead to more diversity in the end.
The deities I think are fine. There is no reason that PC's would even have an inkling of half of them and one only has to look at the history books to see most cultures did have a deity for just about everything. In fact the Baklunish pantheon I feel is sorely lacking of some primary ones.
I would have said no great genre adventures for 3rd ed. but Maure Castle in the recent Dungeon put a clamp on that criticism.
Originally posted by abysslin
WG7: Castle Greyhawk, Tharizdun, and Phillodor.
I actually enjoyed Castle Greyhawk. The trick is to not take it too seriously. ;)
I'll let this thread continue on. The reason the original thread was closed was because the same question was asked on 9 different forums. The Code of Conduct only allows the same question to be repeated on 2 forums (i.e. a Greyspace question discussed on both the Greyhawk and Spelljammer forums).
Anyway, let's continue with the discussion. Rather than just slamming on certain things as being bad, I'd like to hear why you thought they were bad, and how they could be improved.
Do any of you feel that Rary turning traitor was bad for the setting?
That's a tough one. I think some people like Greyhawk for some of the same reasons other people hate it. I think Hawker's like this world because it's easy to add your own vibe and there isn't a ton of material that must be followed ala Faerun. This may be a drawback for others that are dependent upon the work being laid out for them. I know I'd probably buy a sourcebook that described the Frost, Ice and Snow Barbarians. The next guy would as soon leave his Barbarians just the way he detailed them.
Originally posted by me.
I wasn't complaining about a lack of support and I hope that wasn't directed at me because that certainly wasn't my intention.
I like the Barbarians as I've (with my DM's support)detailed them. I'd buy something like that just for kicks and there might be something I could use. Maybe there is or could be something in Dungeon about it someday. That'd be cool. As it is I think GH has all the support it needs with Dungeon, Canonfire, this board, etc.I agree with Mr. VanderMeer that there is a ton of gods for Greyhawk. To me they don't seem to be all that evenly balanced. There seems to be a number of Death gods and Magic gods that all do the same thing albeit in different pantheons, maybe. Getting back to barbarians that is probably the one thing I changed the most about them is who they worshiped (mind you this was waaaayyy back in the day and I was but a babe). I imported the Norse Pantheon because they fit them like a glove. Beyond Telchur, Kord and Llerg, Greyhawk didn't have alot to offer the Suel in the North. When the name Vatun popped up a few years later in the "Five Shall Be One" I was impressed and immediately I wanted to replace Odin with Vatun. Imagine my dissappoinment when I found out Vatun was actually Iuz in disguise. Iuz got a whupping for that bit of business though. Sorry, I'm waxing nostalgic about my moniker. At any rate this is a "problem" that I would imagine most of us fix with our own Greyhawker kinds of solutions.
I prefer a dungeon crawl to a globe spanning quest to stop Iuz/Vecna/Scarlet Brotherhood/Tharizdun from conquering Oerth. Looks like I'll get my chance in Maure Castle.
But your latest post has brought up another idea. In the sources out there, are some bad guys/conspiracies used too much? I think the theme of some wicked deathless wizard being behind things has been overused. Specifically, Vecna got overused. Iuz and his machinations tends to be overused, but that could be because most of the stuff published is right in the Furyondy/ Veluna/ Greyhawk/ Shield Lands heart of the Flanaess right at his doorstep.
It also might be because a few published sources focused on these guys (and Iggwilv too) and so, knowing something about them, a whole host of unofficial sources out there have focused on them as well rather than create things out of the air (sometimes it's easier to be creative when you have a specific thing to be creative about rather than having total freedom).
I tend to leave out most of these old dead people like Vecna and Iggwilv as part of history... and use some other aspect of their legacy (followers, deranged descendents, and of course Vecna's relics) to fill the same general role rather than keep trotting out the stiffs.
Originally posted by WizO_Drake
Do any of you feel that Rary turning traitor was bad for the setting? [/b]
Not at all. The module itself isn't particularly good and Rary's motives are suspect at best, but the ideas can be taken in interesting directions...
Stu
Castle GH: I get confused when this subject comes up. I know there was a Castle GH adventure way back in the day that was kind of goofy and wierd. My DM and ran us through the box set from around 1990 (I think). That was a doozy. We turned our characters into powerful PC's and we only explored the center tower's subterranean levels. That campaign revolved around those towers for many years. The guy I went through it with passed away in February so those are good memories.
Phillodor: I never had a problem with this character, he made his appearance after Rary went crazy and killed Tenser and the others. We kind of figured out he may or may not be a resurrected Tenser, we never did know for sure. He helped kick off a new campaign for us by gathering together what seemd to be a band of misfits a but what turned out to be a really fun, entertaining and powerful group that we called the Brotherhood. He was kind of like our patron in the beginning, popping in once in awhile to check on us until eventually we never saw him again.
Your latest post has brought up another idea. In the sources out there, are some bad guys/conspiracies used too much? I think the theme of some wicked deathless wizard being behind things has been overused. Specifically, Vecna got overused. Iuz and his machinations tends to be overused, but that could be because most of the stuff published is right in the Furyondy/ Veluna/ Greyhawk/ Shield Lands heart of the Flanaess right at his doorstep.
It also might be because a few published sources focused on these guys (and Iggwilv too) and so, knowing something about them, a whole host of unofficial sources out there have focused on them as well rather than create things out of the air (sometimes it's easier to be creative when you have a specific thing to be creative about rather than having total freedom).
I tend to leave out most of these old dead people like Vecna and Iggwilv as part of history... and use some other aspect of their legacy (followers, deranged descendents, and of course Vecna's relics) to fill the same general role rather than keep trotting out the stiffs.
originally posted by bdunn91
I agree and that was kind of the direction I was going but I didn't want to offend my DM because he frequents these boards too. I get tired of seeing the same bad guys over and over. That hasn't really been true lately but he's just lulling us into a false sense of security. My DM has made us/me so paranoid that when we kill bad guys we will go to extreme lengths to make sure they won't make a return. If we do something wrong or a bad guy manages to get away my buddy always feigns pulling a rabbit out of a hat and says "That's gonna come back to haunt us."
WG7 = piece of crap.
Iuz the Evil never seeing the light of day as a published book. It is a great manuscript and would have done fine as a fully published book with artwork and a cool cover... I can keep dreaming can't I.
And the fact that GREYHAWK, doesn't get a fully fleshed out campaign setting book like FR or Eberron. Yes, I know the Gazetter is good, but it just lacks the overall completelness and production values of a full fledged Campaign hardbound book. If WOTC would put out a HB GH book in this manner, I would be satisfied if they then never released another official GH product, as long as I get the GH CS.
.................................Omote
It's a shame Gary's having to run TSR didn't let him do as much creative work in the 1980s as he wanted -- developing Greyhawk through more modules like S4, and publishing Greyhawk's Castle and City. The Baklunish pantheon is one thing he was going to overhaul. And there are many things I dislike about what TSR did with the world after Gary left, which boil down to later writers having different sensibilities and design philosophies, which for me *are* the setting as much as the brute facts of history and geography. Given that my Greyhawk locus is Gygax's work, I just don't believe in TSR's version of Rary the Archmage, when he was just a minor joke-named magic-user PC that Brian Blume occasionally played.
Originally posted by Omote
Iuz the Evil never seeing the light of day as a published book. It is a great manuscript and would have done fine as a fully published book with artwork and a cool cover... I can keep dreaming can't I.
Er .. you mean Ivid the Undying , don't you?
Castle GH: I get confused when this subject comes up. I know there was a Castle GH adventure way back in the day that was kind of goofy and wierd. My DM and ran us through the box set from around 1990 (I think). That was a doozy. We turned our characters into powerful PC's and we only explored the center tower's subterranean levels. That campaign revolved around those towers for many years. The guy I went through it with passed away in February so those are good memories.
You were probably going through WGR1: Greyhawk Ruins which is an excellent module, whereas WG7: Castle Greyhawk was a mockery and "parody" (a word suggesting the product has an excuse, which it doesn't!) of what WGR1 became.
I wish there were more non-human nations. While two of the Ulek states are ruled by non-humans, they are very cosmopolitan in nature and don't really feel like alien cultures. That's leaves Celene as the only non-human nation.
It seems that there are alot of demi-human enclaves that aren't detailed enough to get anything started on them. They just seem to be scattered about here and there. Elmshire comes to mind as far as halflings go but I can't think of anyplace else where they live in significant numbers. I know there was a halfling neighborhood in GH City. Dwarves have strongholds here and there but outside of the Ulek's where else are they in numbers significant enough to be called a Dwarven nation? Orcs get the Pomarj and the Horned Society why don't Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings or more Elves get a place to call their own?
I've recently been playing Baklunish characters and I find their lack of Deities disconcerting.
Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain
Originally posted by Elendur
It seems that there are alot of demi-human enclaves that aren't detailed enough to get anything started on them. They just seem to be scattered about here and there. Elmshire comes to mind as far as halflings go but I can't think of anyplace else where they live in significant numbers. I know there was a halfling neighborhood in GH City. Dwarves have strongholds here and there but outside of the Ulek's where else are they in numbers significant enough to be called a Dwarven nation? Orcs get the Pomarj and the Horned Society why don't Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings or more Elves get a place to call their own?
Considering that most GH nations aren't particularly detailed either, lack of detail doesn't seem like much of a distinction between demi-human enclaves and other nations. I think there are a good number of such demi-human enclaves and I'm not particularly fussed that they aren't single political entitites like Veluna, Furyondy, or Ket.
For example, the Kron Hills are largely ruled by gnomes even though they are also part of a human-dominated state. The Lortmil Mountains are ruled by a variety of dwarven and gnomish lords and clans but don't form a unified state... the geography certainly wouldn't lend itself to becoming one.
Highfolk is barely a state at all compared to its neighbors and has plenty of elves. Perrenland is a coalition of cantons, any number of which a DM could decide are ruled by demi-hjumans. And isn't Sunndi ruled mostly by elves too? I don't have my rulebook handy to check that...
And when it comes to most of the feudal states that used to be part of the Great Kingdom, there's no reason there can't be lords of particular regions of Furyondy or Nyrond who are demi-humans.
I don't really see a lot of problems with few actual demi-human dominated states, there's plenty of other ways to have demi-humans in authority throughout the Flanaess.
That's one of the beauties of GH, especially if you go mostly on the folio or Gazetteer rather than some of the specific sources. You can keep your hands untied by canon and make up stuff on your own like gangbusters.
“Demi-humans” and “humanoids”—the mythological and fantastic peoples known as dwarves, elves, gnomes, hobgoblins, orcs, etc.—were just slipped into things by default. That is, the setting subsumed the lot had been there when the first human inhabitants came, and whatever prior history was particular to them, severally or jointly, was not known. At the time of introduction to the milieu, all records were of human origination, and included these non-human cousins to mankind in their pages only when such details related directly to human events.
So great mountain dwarf kingdoms and wood elf enclaves, for instance, are assumed to exist but aren't detailed. The World of Greyhawk has always been humanocentric.
Let's remember folks that in those days (and I am talking way before the 1E Unearthed Arcana and its optional rules), human was the only way to go if you wanted to achieve the mythic "high levels".
Nowadays, with any race being able to play any class (not to mention PrC), the general feeling seems to be we "need" enough members of all those races around to justify a player's choice should he decide to use them.
Back in 1E, if your goal was to - one day - be able to talk eye to eye to such worthies as Bigby or Tenser, you needed to be human. Simple as that.
Besides, GH always had enough different human ethnic groups to make them all feel "different". Who needed dwarves, elves or gnomes when you had Flan, Oeridian, Suel and Bakluni running around?
Faraer and bdunn91 I like the fact that we can mold GH pretty easily and there is no doubt it is humanocentric. I guess my point was if you were to set out to create a Dwarven Nation for your own campaign it wouldn't be easy without something already in place to work off of. I guess you could, as a DM, create the Dwarven Kingdom of the Lortmils, it just seems to lend a bit more credence to what you create by having it marked on a map with a half page of teasers in a Gazeteer. I was wondering about Sundii earlier, I think it's a country populated by a variety of demihumans and humans if I'm not mistaken.
You could place demihumans in positions of power in other countries I suppose. But how realistic is that when you consider Humans are intolerant of one another let alone a pointy eared nearly immortal elf? JMHO
So, yay us.
My least favorite part of the setting is that so many places of great potential have seen less than brilliant executions in print. The Vale of the Mage is probably the best example of this. I think the "official" version of the Mage of the Valley (and the valley in which he lives) adds almost nothing to the setting, and squanders the mysterious potential plugged into the place in the original boxed set and folio.
It's also disappointing that the dungeon for which the setting is named will never be officially described to the satisfaction of all Greyhawk fans. Even TSR's "best shot" (WGR1) is at best a disappointing echo of the locale's implied greatness.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
1) Wildly conflicting information regarding everything that lies beyond the edges of the Flanaess (which is, I think, due mostly to the fact that so many people were given "free rein" after EGG left - I'm not saying they did a bad job, I'm saying that none of them seem to AGREE on what's out there.) I sure wish WotC had a "continuity editor" for GH - maybe then "Orcreich" and the Chainmail empire wouldn't occupy the same theoretical area west of the Flanaess. (Harumph!)
2) The second complaint ties directly into the first - I don't much like the huge air of mystery over virtually all of GH's early elements. Huge gaps are left in the setting's history, chunks of vital information are left missing and even later contradicted by other authors. It's like a COMIC BOOK COMPANY out there... and that's not praise.
Questions like "Why did Robilar free Iuz?" and "Where IS Iggwilv, these days, anyway?" could be answered without seriously endangering any proprietary commercial rights, couldn't they?>>>
1) Wildly conflicting information regarding everything that lies beyond the edges of the Flanaess (which is, I think, due mostly to the fact that so many people were given "free rein" after EGG left - I'm not saying they did a bad job, I'm saying that none of them seem to AGREE on what's out there.) I sure wish WotC had a "continuity editor" for GH - maybe then "Orcreich" and the Chainmail empire wouldn't occupy the same theoretical area west of the Flanaess. (Harumph!)
>>>
There's actually not much information beyond the Flanaess (including the Amedio and Hepmonaland), and the greatest amount (outside a one-page article in the first Dragon annual) comes from Gygax's novels. Pretty much everything else is Fireland, some blue-black skinned people south of the Sea of Dust from GHA, and some mentions of Telchuria, none of which conflicts with anything.
The Chainmail region isn't in "Orcreich," btw, but near the "Elvanian Forest" (Ravilla) and the huge island south of the Mare Mysticum. This would have been more evident had the Chainmail hardcover ever come out, but Chris Pramas did actually put some effort into making the "world" of Chainmail fit within the outline provided by the Dragon Annual map.
There's no question that the names on the Dragon Annual map are crap, however.
>>>
2) The second complaint ties directly into the first - I don't much like the huge air of mystery over virtually all of GH's early elements. Huge gaps are left in the setting's history, chunks of vital information are left missing and even later contradicted by other authors. It's like a COMIC BOOK COMPANY out there... and that's not praise. Questions like "Why did Robilar free Iuz?" and "Where IS Iggwilv, these days, anyway?" could be answered without seriously endangering any proprietary commercial rights, couldn't they?
>>>
The first part of your second complaint comes, primarily, from the fact that the early campaign setting was meant as an outline of a world glimpsed between delves into fabulous castles and forbidden caverns. I think things like the absence of a unified creation myth is actually something of a feature, since it allows those DMs who care about that sort of thing to tailor the pantheon to their needs without introducing some lame high-fantasy ideas that half of the fans will hate.
The specific questions are more interesting.
"Why did Robilar free Iuz?"
An excellent question, and one we may answer with a future adventure in Dungeon, written by Robilar's creator, Robert J. Kuntz. Sub-questions include: Who provided Robilar with the "curious dispelling magics" mentioned in Iuz the Evil? Does Robilar's blade of black ice, fashioned by Iuz himself (see Rary the Traitor) play into the mystery? Is Robilar's similar release of Zuggtmoy (Iuz's lover) involved in any way?
"Where IS Iggwilv these days, anyway?"
I'd check "Return of the Eight," which is her last appearance. I'm currently rereading that book in my short free time, and might be able to speculate later. I think we left her out of the LGG because Roger didn't mention her in the 591 "snapshot" in the Player's Guide to Greyhawk, but we may have had other reasons I can't currently remember. Again, if I have my way, she'll appear soon in Dungeon.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
Originally posted by Lincoln Hills Questions like "Why did Robilar free Iuz?"
Robilar didn't free Iuz, Robilar freed Hextor, Iuz was freed in the following chain reaction.
Scott
Robilar didn't free Iuz, Robilar freed Hextor, Iuz was freed in the following chain reaction.
Same difference. I am sure Robilar wasn't intending to free Hextor either.
I get really surprised Sargent create this kind of character but..
Anyway, how did you manage to "suppress" him, to delete him, if you made the error (like me...) to let him enter in your campaign.. I was young.. sorry..
Thanks for ideas, i would like to give my players a good reason they won't hear anymore about Philidor the blue wizard.
Anyway, how did you manage to "suppress" him, to delete him, if you made the error (like me...) to let him enter in your campaign.. I was young.. sorry..Thanks for ideas, i would like to give my players a good reason they won't hear anymore about Philidor the blue wizard.
Have him stand on a galley on Lake Whyestil in front of a banner that says 'Mission Accomplished' then 'POOF' have him vanish forever!
Originally posted by mortellan
Same difference. I am sure Robilar wasn't intending to free Hextor either.
I don't think Robilar knew he was 'Hextor' or a demigod, but he freed him intentionally.
He found the nine, chose the one he thought looked the toughest, and freed him.
I never heard exactly how he freed him, but a hedged prison requires no special magic to break from the outside.
Scott
I want wizards and priests to be rare, looked up to, entreated for aid, feared, despised, and worshipped.
Instead we have 12th level wizards running taverns, there's a bustling school of magic even in towns with only a few thousand inhabitants, we have whole batallions of wizards in various armies, and there seems to be enough priests to cure the world of every ill.
Of course, logistically I understand that the character classes have to made freely availalalbe to pcs from every country. I just prefer the kind of mystique surrounding spell users from settings like Conan or Lord of the Rings rather than a typical day at Hogwarts.
Instead we have 12th level wizards running taverns, there's a bustling school of magic even in towns with only a few thousand inhabitants, we have whole batallions of wizards in various armies, and there seems to be enough priests to cure the world of every ill.
You must be confusing GH with some other high magic game world. :D
Originally posted by ScottyG
I don't think Robilar knew he was 'Hextor' or a demigod, but he freed him intentionally.
He found the nine, chose the one he thought looked the toughest, and freed him.
I never heard exactly how he freed him, but a hedged prison requires no special magic to break from the outside.
Scott
I've seen this exact thread on Rob's forums. Don't dwell on it anymore than what is shown above. That's the only info Rob spilled. Btw, that would mean that Robilar did free Iuz (!) whether inadvertently or directly.
Originally posted by pauln6
I have no objection to bizarre and powerful wizards. I think my biggest beef with GH is the frequency of spell-casters generally.
I'm not a Greyhawk expert, so maybe I have interpreted the LGG and other sources incorrectly, but in my campaign this just isn't the case. The biggest city my players have been to so far is Cryllor, with eight thousand people, and there were no wizard guilds or schools at all. This was due to Keoland's traditional suspicion of magic. There are magic users in Cryllor of course, they just don't parade around.
In fact the only place I had planned to have large, open magic colleges was in the city of Greyhawk. Likewise my only major planned clerical institution was going to be in Veluna, it being a theocracy.
Just going by the city generation rules in the DMG you'll see that high level characters of any type are going to be quite rare. The fact that most of the famous Greyhawk personalities are wizards is actually proof of how exceptional they are.
it's the extended, jam-packed history.
And the players I have that've picked up The Living Gazeteer agree, feeling that too much has happened before, and that they've entered a very 'used up' world.
ie. The circle of eight happened, then fell, then so and so somethinged, then this, now they're...and now the wars are over, etc.
It's ok for a while, but every place detailed in the Flanaess reads like this.
So we've opted to go with the basic 1980' suppliment and work from there.
Originally posted by Elendur
I'm not a Greyhawk expert, so maybe I have interpreted the LGG and other sources incorrectly, but in my campaign this just isn't the case. The biggest city my players have been to so far is Cryllor, with eight thousand people, and there were no wizard guilds or schools at all. This was due to Keoland's traditional suspicion of magic. There are magic users in Cryllor of course, they just don't parade around.
****************
Yes some countries have a greater suspicion of magic than others, which is good. Furyondy is also a country with relatively few wizards, but (for example) Gran March and Knurl seem to have an awful lot of wizards for their small populations.
I quite like the Sorcerous Societies of the Flanaess article. I just restricted the number of members to each society substantially. The highest memberships (over 100) were Greyhawk and the Zashassar of Ekbir because these seemed to be places of learning where wizards who are also members of other guilds also attended.
I think that Living Greyhawk encourages the Triads to ensure that each country has its own guild, which wasn't officially the case before. Still, I suppose that what you say is true about NPC levels. In my campaign level 7 wizards are considered powerful, level 9 very powerful and level 11+ are the elite.
************************
With regard to the lenghty history of Greyhawk, the answer is simply - don't worry about it! Few characters will take any points in Knowledge (History) anyway. If the players take you to task on any historical points, you can legitimately say that their character wouldn't know about.
it's the extended, jam-packed history.
And the players I have that've picked up The Living Gazeteer agree, feeling that too much has happened before, and that they've entered a very 'used up' world.
I actually like the extensive history. I don't feel limited by it. I use as background only. When I DM in Greyhawk the players shape the here and now. I like tossing a lot of info about the history at them (intermingled in the story.)
Of course my players don't klnow that much about the history of greyhawk so that makes it more fun to disclose something every now and then.
Originally posted by priest of blipdoolpoolp
pour moi,
it's the extended, jam-packed history.
And the players I have that've picked up The Living Gazeteer agree, feeling that too much has happened before, and that they've entered a very 'used up' world.
ie. The circle of eight happened, then fell, then so and so somethinged, then this, now they're...and now the wars are over, etc.
It's ok for a while, but every place detailed in the Flanaess reads like this.
So we've opted to go with the basic 1980' suppliment and work from there.
You've hit upon my biggest greyhawk beef
The attempts to update Greyhawk over the years, such as the Greyhawk wars or the Vecna Lives module are the worst things to happen to Greyhawk. Too over the top, too world changing. Sure, they may make interesting reading, but the world as outlined in the 1980's had more good/evil balance, more promise than the post-war Flanness. Reading the recent publications gives one the impression that one act or adventure, given the appropriate consequences, could bring civilization crumbling down around itself. (aka, seems like nothing is ever small anymore). What happened to the small modules about the mysterious fishing village attacks that led parties on investigative adventures with specific outcomes that made an area a little more secure, not stopped the demonic hordes from overrunning Furyondy or turned the royal house of Rauxes into intelligent undead overlords.
If only TSR/WotC had focused on stand alone adventures and sourcebooks instead of oerthshattering events. . . . . I guess I yearn for the good ol' days.
Provide a backdrop for running a game and then slowly flesh out areas over time.
I'd be just as happy to let them track down some good old fashioned bandits in the wilderness, but then that sort of thing is easy to write yourself. I suppose that the Oerth-shattering stuff is made official because it has far-reaching consequences.
My characters haven't played Vecna Lives yet. I'm kinda hoping that, when they do, they might fail. Let Vecna win and the Age of Darkness begin...
Roll on the Apocoplypse Stone...
And the fact that GREYHAWK, doesn't get a fully fleshed out campaign setting book like FR or Eberron.
Damn straight.
Now LISTEN, WotC. Please.
Originally posted by pauln6
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I think that Living Greyhawk encourages the Triads to ensure that each country has its own guild, which wasn't officially the case before. Still, I suppose that what you say is true about NPC levels. In my campaign level 7 wizards are considered powerful, level 9 very powerful and level 11+ are the elite.
That's not actually fully correct. LG has encouraged the creation of meta organisations (such as thieves guilds, bards colleges and yes, I suppose magic colleges) within regions to manage access to prestige classes, but that's not the same as saying it encourages creation of Wizard's Guilds in every region. Triads can (and should) tailor these metaorgs to fit the region. LG Onnwal doesn't have a Wizard's Guild, though some PCs are working to change that as part of the campaign - which is fine by me; PCs are supposed the shape the world.
As to Erik's questions about Iuz - Robilar was a patsy!
P.
Regarding Philidor, first here's a link to a recent thread about him: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164668. Per my comment in that thread, and in response to Lassiviren's comment that "Philidor is definately a Sargent faux pas in my mind[,]" I disagree. Philidor seems very much in keeping with a certain dimension or aspect of Sargent's writings.
I think of it as influenced significantly by Lord Dunsany and British Romanticism (the literary genre). While others have noted repeatedly that the City of Summer Stars derives from Dunsany's King of Elfland's Daughter, AFAIK, only I connect Sargent's "Powers" to certain poems by John Keats. I'm not arguing for exclusive or direct derivation but instead just highlighting some influences.
Regarding Rary "the Traitor," I haven't found the daemon-influence rationale compelling, but I never read Gord the Rogue so I really never picked up on the Infestix - Nerull connection. However, I'm open to the idea and believe this leads into the other folks who've been named in this thread.
As discusssed in the new thread "Who is Mordenkainen, really??" Erik and Gary dropped some dooseys in LGJ 0. You really should read "Wheels Within Wheels: Greyhawk's Circle of Eight." Based upon that article, I like the notion that Rary's daemonically-aided divinations informed him of something that set him against Mordenkainen (perhaps like who forged a certain set of powerful dispelling magicks?).
It seems more interesting than Rary merely becoming power-mad, especially given that he was characterized as erudite and especially interested in the mind.
Finally, regarding Living Greyhawk, to which pauln6 seemed to refer, I caution against imputing what some Triads have developed into the World of Greyhawk. Alternatively, if he's referring to the City of Greyhawk, the campaign setting has been designed for it to be luminary. The number of magic-users in that place should probably be higher than anywhere else -- with the Nexus at Rel Astra a close competitor and the Lonely Tower a different kind of order.
Originally posted by emperor norton
Hmm. Gee, I dunno. Maybe it could be all the LACK OF ATTENTION the setting gets.
Hmm. Gee, I dunno. Maybe it could be all the LACK OF OFFICIAL ATTENTION the setting gets.
Not quite an echo..;)
Originally posted by Tizoc
Finally, regarding Living Greyhawk, to which pauln6 seemed to refer, I caution against imputing what some Triads have developed into the World of Greyhawk. Alternatively, if he's referring to the City of Greyhawk, the campaign setting has been designed for it to be luminary. The number of magic-users in that place should probably be higher than anywhere else -- with the Nexus at Rel Astra a close competitor and the Lonely Tower a different kind of order.
I agree. I think that all the Triads have done a sterling job and the info they've developed have brought Greyhawk alive.
I think this is a question of style over substance. With the exception of a few pockets like the ones you mention, I think I'd prefer there to be far fewer low level wizards wandering around generally. So a batallion of evokers is one batallion too many in my view!
I think it only requires a bit of tweaking to power up or down the number of wizards. Minor npcs lose their magic weapons and receive masterwork weapons, and so on, pub owners are converted to npc classes, wizards are more marinalised generally, and a bit more mysterious.
I also converted Kermin Mindbender to a sorcerer and have him scouring the north for raw talent instead of those with the brains to be wizards. That made more sense to me, and why the other Bonehaert members are so afraid of him.
Originally posted by priest of blipdoolpoolp
pour moi,
it's the extended, jam-packed history.
And the players I have that've picked up The Living Gazeteer agree, feeling that too much has happened before, and that they've entered a very 'used up' world.
ie. The circle of eight happened, then fell, then so and so somethinged, then this, now they're...and now the wars are over, etc.
It's ok for a while, but every place detailed in the Flanaess reads like this.
When i first started running my Greyhawk campaign (started with 3e Gazetteer) I also felt overwhelmed by the history but I have since picked a few of the older source books, gotten a few things from a fellow dm from old dungeons and sources and I have also made good use of Canonfire.com.
While I still feel somewhat overwhelmed by the depth of the history occassionally, overall now I am starting to embrace it. And like somebody else said, most players aren't going to know anymore than you about the Greyhawk.
What I feel the worst part about Greyhawk is, is that so many larges battles are still waging everywhere or countries are being rebuilt. I don't feel I am playing with a used up world but sometimes i feel I playing with a damaged world. Just so much conspiracy and conflict.. but I guess that is one of my favorite things also now that I think about it. I guess my worst favorite, could possibly be my most favorite also. A double-edged blade...... what a conundrum.
Originally posted by Scoti Garbidis
.. I also felt overwhelmed by the history ..
Just in case nobody pointed you there already, check this.
I found out it helps new GH DMs a great deal.
WoGFS Furyondy has a population of 350,000+, Marklands comes out and doesn't really change that but basically develops 14 population centers larger than villages leaving out villages and population centers documented in other products on a 600 hex or so map of Furyondy (20 mile hexes) with a small capital population of 15,000 or so.
Shift to LGG Furyondy's population expands fourfold to a population of 1,481,800 after the wars (3.5 multiplier increase from the Marklands) and lists the same 14 population centers larger than villages, the capital (which provides a good chunk of the king's revenues as explained in the Marklands) doesn't increase in size to a metropolis of 25,000+ or 30,000 to 60,000 people just listed as 15,600 the same as in WoGFS.
That's an average of 2,300 people per 600 hexes.
Demographically where are all the high level NPCs and PRC organizations coming from using standard demographics? PRC organization like the Knights of the Chalice with its thousands of mid/high level BAB 8+ entry requirement members particularly rangers and paladins (generated with a 1D3)?
How about a little more basic information on some of the nobility besides the royal family and the seven families? 30 to 40 other lesser noble houses and ___ gentry.
Since it was mentioned a few times earlier regarding Rary. Roger Moore published a nice TSR article @ 1998 in Shadis issue # 50 "The House on Summoner Court". An adventure tied with the sale of Otiluke's house in Greyhawk.
***Roger also published a rougher version of "The House on Summoner Court" in the Oerth Journal #7 which you can find and download for free from Cannonfire for those who weren't already aware of it.***
It mentioned his girlfriend/apprentice Glorial who defended herself with a dagger she snatched up from Otiluke's collectibles when the house was raided and invaded after Otiluke's death. She killed one raider and wounded two with the dagger.
In 1998 the dagger was +5, granted AC0 (which overruled other magical protections), causes it's user to move at four times normal speed (physical attacks and movement not spellcasting or psionics) and granted immunity to divinatioin spells that would detect the user's location, thoughts, alignment etc. Certainly a minor or major artifact if converting those statistics and abilities to 3.5 (article suggested might be The Harbringer of Tharizdun, designed to spread evil across the world in preparation for Tharizdun's final release)
The dagger is extremely EVIL and corrupts its user (but as an artifact would not necessarily radiate Evil and could be cloaked as a non artifact). A DM might say that Lord Robilar found the dagger (obsidian) and then gave it to Rary (CY583) and both were corrupted to evil in turn by possessing this dagger (Robilar found it in an old temple to Tharizdun in the Yatils, only a suggestion in the article but mentions the dagger was in both their possession and perhaps WG4 was where they found it). The dagger doesn't cause its owner to covet it. Instead the dagger causes its possessor to eventually discard it, allowing others to be corrupted by it like a plague carrier can move through a city. and infect many individuals in turn.
Personally liked the article and adventure because it gave a plausible reason for Rary going off the deep end. Hope this helps anyone unfamiliar with the article.