(1) Is he perhaps the avatar of a deity?
(2) Is Rary actually a traitor, or was the whole debacle at the Great Signing, his attempt to stop an intricate Mordenkainen plot?
(3) Turrosh Mak is a mysterious figure who's identity is really unknown. Could Mordenkainen have something to do with it?
It seems that Mordenkainen is "conviently" absent whenever something bad happens to the other members of the Circle. When the conclave was annilated, he was at home, using the excuse that "Well, we can't have all the members together, what if someone wanted to kill them?;)" Or when the explosion occured during the Great Signing, he wasn't in there. Hmmm. What do you think?
Who is Mordenkainen, really??
Gary Gygax's player character ;)
Originally posted by Twilight_Knight
I've tried to find a good answer to this question, but am unable to satisfy my quest for info. Mordenkainen, IMHO, is the most mysterious figure in all of Hawkdom. He seems to have been involved in very major event over the past half century. What are his motivations? And who is he really? Just some of the questions that I've read and/or formulated include...
(1) Is he perhaps the avatar of a deity?
(2) Is Rary actually a traitor, or was the whole debacle at the Great Signing, his attempt to stop an intricate Mordenkainen plot?
(3) Turrosh Mak is a mysterious figure who's identity is really unknown. Could Mordenkainen have something to do with it?
It seems that Mordenkainen is "conviently" absent whenever something bad happens to the other members of the Circle. When the conclave was annilated, he was at home, using the excuse that "Well, we can't have all the members together, what if someone wanted to kill them?;)" Or when the explosion occured during the Great Signing, he wasn't in there. Hmmm. What do you think?
I doubt any deity would want Mordenkainen for avatar, even Boccob :D
Seriously, Turrosh Mak secret ID was established in the Slavers accessory. I won't give it away in case players roam this forum but no ties to Mordy. Of course, I am willing to bet Mordenkainen has learnt the truth about the whole matter since then.
I would say Mordenkainen is just the stereotype of the (very) powerful wizard.
- he feels his powers mean he has a right to interfere whenever he sees fit
- he bows down to no-one
- he is paranoid about his security.. and is usually right about it (frankly, had he come along his fellows only to be killed by the "false" Vecna in WGA4, he would have been a moron)
Such a wizard turning to Good becomes an *cough* Elminster. Turn him to evil, and you get a Raistlin.
Mordy went for the middle way, Balance. Frankly, I find that a courageous choice because it implies a lot of deep thinking and actions which will bring you only the hatred of both Good and Evil over time.
Oh, and I wouldn't fault him about the "Great Signing" incident. After all, it occured as Tenser and Otiluke were checking the room one last time. The other members of the Circle of Eight weren't there either (well, except for Rary..)
He does seem shadier than during his early years, whats with the bald head afterall?
I'm guessing Mordy simply found himself getting a little thin on top and decided to simply nip it in the bud and go for the full-bald look. (I hear Elminster wears a toupee by the way):D
The write up on him in LGJ-zero seriously changed my view of him. Let's just say, IMO he's more arrogant, crazy and dangerous than he looks.
P.
I'm pleased to say that you inferred all the right things from that article.
Mordenkainen is not a hero.
--Erik
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Woe,
I'm pleased to say that you inferred all the right things from that article.
Mordenkainen is not a hero.
--Erik
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Mordenkainen is not a hero.
--Erik
But if that's so, wouldn't the other Circle members be ill at ease working with him? After all, how much do they really know about him and what his ultimate goals are?
I see Mordenkainen as a darker sort of personality, and I don't think someone would be too comfortable working with (okay, okay, for; Mordy's the leader, after all) someone who has dark and dangerous depths that might just surface when you least expect it.
The elf mage Theodain Eriason argues every third word that comes out of Mordenkainen's mouth; he might just have a good reason as to why.
Also, Jallarzi Sallavarian, devout Pelor-worshipper that she is, should have some qualms about someone who will aid the forces of evil should it help his agenda to do so.
I'm thinking maybe Tenser quit the Circle precisely because he saw that Mordenkainen is not a force for good in the world, and it would be too easy for the Lord Mage of Greyhawk to turn to evil means to justify his ends. If that's so, Tenser is pretty darn wise and smart to sever his connections to someone like that.
I'm thinking maybe Tenser quit the Circle precisely because he saw that Mordenkainen is not a force for good in the world, and it would be too easy for the Lord Mage of Greyhawk to turn to evil means to justify his ends.
Who ever said that the Cirlce of 8 was for the forces of Good?!
GREYhawk.... Balance and all that...
Pat E
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Woe,
I'm pleased to say that you inferred all the right things from that article.
Mordenkainen is not a hero.
--Erik
Yep, it's what I liked about the write up too. Mordenkainen is an adventurer that happens to have an abundance of ambition, power and perhaps.....time.
A lot of them are Neutral, so probably share something of his world view and buy into his mission to preserve the balance in the Flaaness to greater and lesser degrees. I suspect that most of the Circle members have their own agendas, but other than Bigby (and maybe not even him) I doubt any of them fully know what Mordy's Big Picture is.
And not all of them did follow Mord unswervingly. Tenser (the most goody-goody of the old Circle) had big issues with Mord before his unfortunate (if convenient) incineration and ressurection. Theodain, as has been pointed out, argues with him all the time. Nystul doesn't buy the story of Rary's betrayal. There's tensions within the Circle, but Mord manages to keep them under control.
It's convenient for the Circle to be thought of as a force for good (if indeed they are throught of as such). It allows them to work in the non-evil realms without too much hassle. However, one half of being neutral and maintaining the balance is helping the bad guys out when the forces of good look like winning.
The Harpers they ain't.
If you read the LGJ Zero article very carefully, there's some big hints in there about some of the **Very Bad Things** that Mord's been behind - stuff that makes Ivid V look like a model of sanity and Turrosh Mak a Slum Quarter thug. Erik did a fine job of adding shades of grey to the Circle and (not to blow my own trumpet), I've tried to communicate some of that in the LG Core Module "The Traitor's Road".
Here's a few other things to mull over:
Who alone out of the Circle was it that conveniently never went into the crypt to get massacred by Vecna's Hand and Eye?
Who then conveniently had tissue of each of the dead archmages and cloned them back to life just in time to prevent the bad guys from wiping the boards with the good realms in the Greyhawk Wars?
Whose apprentice and bestest buddy in the world was the only one of three archmages to survive Rary's onslaught on the Day of the Great Signing and broke the terrible story of the Archmage of Ket's betrayal to a shocked Greyhawk City?
The truth is out there...
P.
Precisely!
This confusion allows the Co8 to not only pursue a common agenda, but also a series of individual agendas. However, each member knows that the common agenda must come before the individual agenda. Some Co8 members had forgotten this and had to die. Or atleast be banned from the group. Or worse, become a "Traitor"...
Meanwhile, look what has been accomplished:
The Evil that has been Diminished: Empire of Iuz.
The Good that has been Diminished: Nyrond.
In the wake of the wars, everyone has to do a little bit of rebuilding...and nothing like some hard work to humble some folks. Perhaps make them have a more "neutral" outlook.
Originally posted by emperor norton
Good to see you back, Gadodel. As usual, you bring your thinking-cap with you.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Gadodel
This confusion allows the Co8 to not only pursue a common agenda, but also a series of individual agendas. However, each member knows that the common agenda must come before the individual agenda. Some Co8 members had forgotten this and had to die. Or atleast be banned from the group. Or worse, become a "Traitor"...
Meanwhile, look what has been accomplished:
The Evil that has been Diminished: Empire of Iuz.
The Good that has been Diminished: Nyrond.
In the wake of the wars, everyone has to do a little bit of rebuilding...and nothing like some hard work to humble some folks. Perhaps make them have a more "neutral" outlook.
I doubt it.
Tenser left the Co8 as soon as he was brought back (in Return of the Eight ) and is now actively helping Good.
Both Bigby and Nystul are enraged at what happened to the East and lending help (if not more) to those fighting the remnants of Aerdy and the SB.
Moreover, with people such as Archbold, Arnfeld and Basmajenn in control of Nyrond during the war, Mordenkainen wouldn't have had to lift a finger to diminish the power of that kingdom. The fools did it all on their own.
Certainly, bringing new blood in the Co8 and balancing its members was a step in the right direction but as far as purging it of people with their own agenda, that's a failure.
If you look at the current Circle, more than half its members are strongly leaning toward Good (which, while necessary given how much Evil gained during the War, could prove problematic if the long-term goal is "balance")
And after the kicking it got in the Greyhawk Wars, Good could use a hand.
"Both Bigby and Nystul are enraged at what happened to the East and lending help (if not more) to those fighting the remnants of Aerdy and the SB."
Well - from a certain point of view, drawing the Scarlet Brotherhood out of the shadows was one of the positive results of the Wars. Now that they're committed to the open defence of territories, they'll be distracted from their more effective and harder to counter covert ops. They're now in sight and therefore vulnerable.
In the longer term, the reverses that they'll suffer and the backlash their conquests in the south will cause, will force them to become more active to check the activities of those states that pose the biggest threat to them - Keoland and Ahlissa. So by embroiling all three of these states in a struggle for supermacy, the Circle have set up a system whereby they can each check the ambitions of the other - balance in other words.
Almost worth all the pain and sacrifice, one might say...
The other point is that from the LGJ zero article, it's clear what Mordy's no 1 nightmare is...and it's not fluffy teddy bears.
Drawing the Brotherhood out into the open could be seen as a means towards preventing that nightmare scenario from coming true. Read the article and you'll see what I mean. >Moreover, with people such as Archbold, Arnfeld and Basmajenn in control of Nyrond during the war, Mordenkainen wouldn't have had to lift a finger to diminish the power of that kingdom. The fools did it all on their own.
That's a little unfair to Archbold and Arafeld (Basmajenn was a grade A fool). They were old school guys thrust into a new situation at a point in their lives when they hadn't the energy or ability to adapt. They were fine in the old pre-Wars status quo of little inconseqeuntial border wars. However, in the far more dangerous post-war reality, they were dinosaurs and to Nyrond's credit, they were succeeded by a more able generation - Lynwerd and Myariken and their followers.
It might seem that having these able young lions take control in Nyrond helps out the cause of good - think of how the Balance would have been shifted if an able and energetic ruler like Lynwerd took control of a Nyrond in the fullness of its pre-War's might? Instead of struggling to keep his nation together, he'd be marching on Kalstrand, if not Rel Astra now, and presaging a new Great Kingdom in the east - the Great Kingdom of Nyrond. The Wars gave Lynwerd a mountain to climb rather than a favourable slope to gallop down.
>Certainly, bringing new blood in the Co8 and balancing its members was a step in the right direction but as far as purging it of people with their own agenda, that's a failure.
People with their own agendas aren't neccessarily bad for balance - provided they are properly used...
P.
Originally posted by Mortepierre
If you look at the current Circle, more than half its members are strongly leaning toward Good (which, while necessary given how much Evil gained during the War, could prove problematic if the long-term goal is "balance")
In this context, 'Good' is highly subjective-moreso than in any other typical debate about it. 'Good' in what way? In the current line up I see a great deal of patriotism each member has for his or her own country/people. That is good. However, Mordy will find that one *that* patriotism may get in the way of the larger balance.
Though...he already knew this.
Since the rise of Iuz, the Flanaess has been fairly chaotic with a huge leaning towards evil. The Greyhawk wars cleared away a lot of it. Now, with the rise of Rary; the Flanaess has been fairly chaotic with a huge leaning towards good.
Some sort of balance has been made.
In time, we will see a more lawful Flanaess and it will cycle through both evil and good times.
Mordy knows this.
In time, we will see a more lawful Flanaess and it will cycle through both evil and good times.
My money is on the Theocracy of the Pale bringing law and order!
Another tidbit to chew on, Mordenkainen's Obsidian Citadel is in the Yatils (not sure where exactly) but I'm sure far far removed from everyday political boundaries. Tenser's castle is right smack on the Nyr Dyv in the center of the action. Rary probably wished this kind of unchecked reclusiveness too when he moved his Keep from Ket (which was a hot spot during the GHW) to the remote Bright Desert.
Mordy does this in secrecy.
And we all know, the greatest weapon one can use to achieve victory is secrecy.
Originally posted by Woesinger
That's a little unfair to Archbold and Arafeld (Basmajenn was a grade A fool). They were old school guys thrust into a new situation at a point in their lives when they hadn't the energy or ability to adapt. They were fine in the old pre-Wars status quo of little inconseqeuntial border wars. However, in the far more dangerous post-war reality, they were dinosaurs and to Nyrond's credit, they were succeeded by a more able generation - Lynwerd and Myariken and their followers.
It might seem that having these able young lions take control in Nyrond helps out the cause of good - think of how the Balance would have been shifted if an able and energetic ruler like Lynwerd took control of a Nyrond in the fullness of its pre-War's might? Instead of struggling to keep his nation together, he'd be marching on Kalstrand, if not Rel Astra now, and presaging a new Great Kingdom in the east - the Great Kingdom of Nyrond. The Wars gave Lynwerd a mountain to climb rather than a favourable slope to gallop down.
I must disagree. If one uses the article p.11-12 of the September '82 issue of Dragon Mag. ("Events of the Eastern and Southern Flanaess") by Rob Kuntz, it's clear Nyrond (and thus its king) knew war on a large scale against the Great Kingdom before.
True, the article refers a certain "Dunstan" as the king of Nyrond but we can safely assume Dunstan = Archbold given it happens in 578 CY (I doubt Archbold was king only from 579 to 586..)
In said article, the Nyrondese king is praised as a "very competent strategist", and Nyrondese forces described as "formidable indeed".
Yet, a mere 5 years later, the Nyrondese king becomes an old man who acts too late and, when he does finally act, doesn't give enough thought to what he is doing. End result: mass casualties to one of the finest army of the Flanaess.
I am ready to forgive Arafeld because he was an old man loyal to his king but for Archbold to make such mistakes AND not see what an utter fool Basmajenn had become .. that's hard to swallow.
Then again, maybe a SB spy had been feeding him some drug dulling his mind for some time
The Greyhawk Wars on the other hand on the Nyrondese Fronts alone accounted for the total destruction of Almor, the loss to Nyrond of the Flinties and the Almorian border lands not to mention the cream of its armies, numbering tens of thousands of dead. It was a totally different scale of war than the WoGL.
Yes the incmpetance of the leaders had something to do with it, but so did the fact that the Greyhawk Wars were something unprecendented in the lifetime of those leaders. IMO it's like comparing the Boer War and the First World War.
P.
Originally posted by Woesinger
IMO it's like comparing the Boer War and the First World War
I'll grant you that.