Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 10, 2004 19:49:32	I've never played darksun...being faithful to the realms all my gaming career, but recently got into it thru the 3.5 update in the D&D magazines..and while i am slowly scouting the bargin bins at my local comic shop for ol' 2 ed stff, what exactly are the dragon kings?..are they actual dragons or something else?? p.s. please don't point and laugh
#2 superpriest Jun 10, 2004 20:08:43	There are no traditional dragons on Dark Sun. Instead, the Dragon Kings are wizard-psions who have advanced themselves along a metamorphosis that eventually results in a dragonlike creature.
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 10, 2004 21:09:44	When A human or Half elf atain 20th level as both a Defiler (a wizard who sucks all energy from the land) and Psionisist (again 2oth) They receive the powerfull psionics, and access to I beleive tenth level magic receiving the dragon metomorphis' spell... Then They become a 21st level dragon... At this point they are still mostly human in appearance. Now on the otherside is Avion (sp) But only humans can attain this... That is a preserver(wizard who takes only what he needs) Psion. And Finally this is way off your question, but again this is only human a 20/20 elemental cleric/ Psion can become an elemental. SO thats whats up with dragons... Ohh yea Boris (a dragon king) whent insane because of the process and destroyed everything in his wake for a hundred years.... (this was I ssume when he was a 30th lvl dragon) Its not something that the sorcer kings like too see another SK do. Umm, I beleive the book is called Dragon kings, I may be wrong, That book I own as data. This is 2nd ed info
#4 nytcrawlr Jun 10, 2004 21:38:44	Well, if you REALLY want to get into Dark Sun, then I suggest that you take a look at my sig and visit the official history link. Dragon Kings, also known as Sorcerer Monarchs (cause there are some queens too) are advanced beings of epic proportion. They were originally warlords that became champions, or started out straight as champions during a mighty world war known as the Cleansing Wars. Each Sorcerer Monarch, at the time known as Champions of Rajaat (better get that in so Raven doesn't beat me :P ), had one specific race to totally annihilate. Some succeeded, some didn't due to other things that happened later (read the timeline). Anyways, they are basically very powerful wizards (although a few might be sorcerers with the new 3e rules) and psionicists (most psions, a few psychic warriors, and maybe one a wilder). They cast epic spells that can be manipulated by psionics and make said spell that more powerful in a certain degree. Since the end of the Cleansing Wars, they have all taken a city for themselves, now aptly named a City-State, and rule over said City-State, though most do nothing but worry about their own goals and let their templars rule the state, mainly just enforcing the laws laid down by said SM. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I know the Paizo stuff went the easy route and had them written up as normal dragons and are 20/20 wiz/psi (I think), and are possibly even higher level. While some may have dragon features, there was only two so far that became a dragon, and one pretty darn close. Borys and Kalid-Ma being the only two SMs that became full-fledged dragons and Dregoth at 29th level of the 30 levels of dragonhood. As far as what level they are, that's for you to decide, but I recommend pretty high epic levels, at least 40+. Xlorep has done some nice rules on them and Avangions, but his site is down right now, so if you want said rules, just yell and one of the peeps that has it all in doc format might be kind enough to send them to you. Hope that answers your question. /me points and laughs Just kidding. :D
#5 heretic_apostate Jun 10, 2004 22:51:41	Originally posted by Tha Nomad Download it off Kazaa I think... Actually, there's a perfectly legal method of obtaining an electronic copy of the book. And mentioning it on the site of the company that holds the "intellectual property won't get you in trouble. (Hint, hint... An edit is seriously suggested...) There are two sites that sell scanned (not always good scans, but...) copies of many, if not most, of the old TSR/WOTC books. One is rpgnow (which sells zipped files, good for those who use a high-speed connection, for $4.95 each, generally) and one is svgames (which sells "chopped up" files, where you download them at 15MB at a time, then put them together again; these go for $4.74 per product, but there's a sale on about 450 of them for $3.99 or less). That's how I managed to pick up about 200 of the old stuff...
#6 gilliard_derosan Jun 10, 2004 23:28:38	/points and laughs. No seriously - I am kidding. They started out as Champions, and in the cleansing wars they each had a race that they were in charge of wiping off the face of Athas. Some failed, some succeeded. Other points, the "Sorceror King Phenomenon" was a by product of the use of the lense of the Pristine Tower, giving them the ability to grant templars divine/clerical spells. Now, I believe that there has been mention in places, that the SKP was a one time thing, and thus there can be no more True SK's that can grant spells to their templars. (Which, didn't the Paizo vresions go and do just that though? Saying that were now some new SKs? - ahh well) But other than that, the above posts pretty much nail it on the head. Although, wasn't Borys forced into Dragonhood, which is what caused him to go mad? Or was he just the first, and went mad, and everyone became afraid, and since Dregoth was close, they all ganged up on him and killed him before he could turn into a Dragon as well?...
#7 nytcrawlr Jun 11, 2004 0:07:14	Originally posted by Gilliard DeRosan (Which, didn't the Paizo vresions go and do just that though? Saying that were now some new SKs? - ahh well) Nope, they just brought some dead ones back, which works for me to a point. Although, wasn't Borys forced into Dragonhood, which is what caused him to go mad? Or was he just the first, and went mad, and everyone became afraid, and since Dregoth was close, they all ganged up on him and killed him before he could turn into a Dragon as well?... Borys wasn't forced, no. We suspect that Dregoth had a hand, if not outright coming up with it himself, in creating the metamorphsis process, hence he has yet to go insane and is well beyond the stage in which he was suppose to. Getting your hands on Dregoth Ascending adds to this as well, but I won't spoil the fun on the boards till athas.org gets it out.
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 11, 2004 6:54:54	Ok, call them 40 th level for 3.5, 2nd ed sais 30 max for a dragon, So do it based on which game your going with... All the champions helped to make borys a dragon. Ok page 127 of the wanderers chronicle 1st and 2nd Paragraph cover it, And confirm 29th level (2nd ed style)
#9 dawnstealer Jun 11, 2004 10:04:43	Since everyone else already answered the question, the only thing I can contribute is some pointing and laughing.
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 11, 2004 12:22:16	I could contribute more, what with the rules I've made for dragons and avations, as well as my champion of rajaat and sorcerer-monarch template, but pointing and laughing looks to be fun, so I'll do that instead.
#11 gilliard_derosan Jun 11, 2004 23:06:33	Originally posted by NytCrawlr Getting your hands on Dregoth Ascending adds to this as well, but I won't spoil the fun on the boards till athas.org gets it out. Hey no teasing!.. no mentioning it till we can all see it!... Cuz, depending on how it takes things, might have to go back to Cali, and have my buddy revive his dark sun game so we can get some more dregoth bashing going on. . . since, our group in his game resides in the palace that formerly belonged to Dregoth. . .
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 12, 2004 21:17:34	From a lot of the fluff, Borys went insane because of course the process was not refined and they all helped him become a dragon rather rapidly. Dregoth likely was advancing slowly and carefully witht he experience of seeing what happened to Borys. Event hat didn't help him when he was killed and then wallowed in undeath. One controversial source, is I Hamanu book, which had a lot of revealing but also suspicious things in it. Hamanu was seen as the guy who would kill all the other champions (this was always hinted at). However, it was revealed to Hamanu that although all of the champions had the potential dragonhood was meant by Rajaat to happen to Hamanu. Explains why the scourge doesn't work on him (although it also is explained by the fact Hamanu is a new champion). In the book knowing Hamanu's secret Borys helps formulate how to do it with help from Dregoth and Nibenay. At this time only Rajaat knew truly how to kill a champion. SOme of the controversial things in this book which was made at the tail end of the Dark Sun book runs is that Kalak was never a Champion and merely a former student who was never chosen to be a champion but became powerful in the years after Rajaat's death. They say that is the reason why he had Sacha and Wyan around. He needed them to give his templars powers and allow him to exert similar powers to Champions. Of course I think a lot of people don't like this idea and some will like this. One thing most people here didn't say is that the reason why the sorcerer monarchs are like gods and can grant spells is they have the elemental vortexes. When they were declared Champions by Rajaat Elemental Vortexes clung to them giving them the ability to grant spells. IN the Dragon Kings book it was seen as an accident. However, only champions of Rajaat have this trait and no other character trying to be a dragon can do this supposedly. Think of being a Champion of Rajaat being like a chosen of a god that gives you special innate abilities. They were done so they could quite effectively wipe Athas clean in a genocidal rampage. If Athas had anything that is close to a God, Rajaat certainly qualifies, ugly and weird as he is. Anyway hope this helps.
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 12, 2004 22:37:04	1. The name of the book is Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. 2. The book has several inconsistancies, but for the most part, was rather well thought out by the author, and even was endorsed as being the best book to "keep the flavor" of Dark Sun by it's creator, Try Denning. It misses the mark a few times, but bypassing those, it works. I'd suggest checking out Nytcrawlr's site - he has a PDF of Lynn Abbey's notes on the subject - and bear in mind - she was not given any heads-up or clue as to what the game developers (or other authors) were doing at that time. 3. Nytcrawlr has a very interesting take on the "not a Champion" bit for Kalak. 4. I'll agree - Rajaat's about the closest thing to a God for Athas. Scary thought, really.
#14 zombiegleemax Jun 13, 2004 0:41:26	Yeah that is the book. I always remember it as I Hamanu because of parody I had with another book. Its a very interesting book and yes there are things that raise eyebrows but I agree there is few things that do not make sense in it. Some are a bit unorthodox but overall a good book. I didn't know that Denning felt that way about it. I will check out the site you mentioned. She does link up and tie up a lot of what he started. On the third point, it is just typical of Athas to have a near deity like Rajaat. Definitely not my choice of saviors.
#15 zombiegleemax Jun 13, 2004 1:17:51	Originally posted by Dawnstealer Since everyone else already answered the question, the only thing I can contribute is some pointing and laughing. I'd like to see your templates on sorcerer kings and dragons. I am bit fascinated with the Champions of Rajaat and what they can do.
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 13, 2004 9:48:28	Did Dawnstealer finish his Dragon/Avangion designs? If not, I think you may have meantto ask that question to me... My redesign's a bit unorthodox, as there are a handful of people who hate that I redesigned them so much, but.... I can send you the PDF file of dragons/avangions (as they stand right now).... I think there's a link at the bottom of the first page of the thread "About my Dragons and Avangions"...
#17 dawnstealer Jun 14, 2004 13:50:52	I have, and since I've been doing all this "critiquing" (harping?) on Xlor's, I should prolly post my own. Just got some many little projects going on right now.
#18 nytcrawlr Jun 14, 2004 17:48:04	Originally posted by Gilliard DeRosan Cuz, depending on how it takes things, might have to go back to Cali, and have my buddy revive his dark sun game so we can get some more dregoth bashing going on. . . Might be the other way around. ;)
#19 gilliard_derosan Jun 14, 2004 22:43:04	Originally posted by NytCrawlr Might be the other way around. ;) heh.. Re-Match! Rematch! Rematch!! We took care of Dregoth once.. and later in the campaign we wiped out Borys (which was no easy feat). . . hehehe Ummm, so. . . How long until Dregoth Ascending is ready anyway? Any ideas?
#20 nytcrawlr Jun 15, 2004 16:06:50	Originally posted by Gilliard DeRosan heh.. Re-Match! Rematch! Rematch!! We took care of Dregoth once.. and later in the campaign we wiped out Borys (which was no easy feat). . . hehehe Boo. Ummm, so. . . How long until Dregoth Ascending is ready anyway? Any ideas? Down the road a ways.
#21 Pennarin Jun 15, 2004 16:16:10	I have a question too: where does it say that after the events of The Verdant Passage the body of Kalak mysteriously disappeared?
#22 elonarc Jun 15, 2004 16:28:24	City-state of Tyr. The part concerning the Ziggurat.
#23 zombiegleemax Jun 16, 2004 2:29:14	Thanks I'll check it out, and yes I inadvertently picked the wrong link, still learning. Originally posted by kreenrunner I'd like to see your templates on sorcerer kings and dragons. I am bit fascinated with the Champions of Rajaat and what they can do.
#24 jon_oracle_of_athas Jun 16, 2004 2:59:00	Ummm, so. . . How long until Dregoth Ascending is ready anyway? Any ideas? It requires a complete set of epic level rules. I really can't give an estimate.