They've always been powerful but if I am reading the rules correctly just think what happens when a Thri Kreen ranger with the appropriate multi feats with two Gythkas can do, including a bite attack at -2. That is a lot of damage.
If I were to play Kreen, Ranger or Druid all the way.
+1 LA
Psi-Like Abilities.
+1 PP
Favored Class: Ranger
now, I haven'tdone an exhaustive comparison, this is fjust from the top. I personally don't see any issue with using them. I've had Thri-Kreen in campaigns before, and they are well balanced with other races, when compared based off of the actual ECL's.
One thing to note is Thri kreen have very short lifespans so they burn bright but they burn fast, you'll probably not see too many Thri kreen that become extraordinarily high in level without being middle aged.
Anyway just thought I'd see what people thought. Thanks.
I take a special dislike in the fact that these versions are that easy to convert to a four bladed fighting horror. That is something a Thri-Kreen does not do normally and you had to train them extensivly (probably by force) in 2e to achieve that.
I also question the logic of a poisonous bite that is only usable once per day. It does not make sense.
Kilamar
Originally posted by Kilamar
I also question the logic of a poisonous bite that is only usable once per day. It does not make sense.
Maybe it takes a day for a Thri-kreen to generate the poison.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Maybe it takes a day for a Thri-kreen to generate the poison.
No, biologically it does not make sense.
They changed that from 2e because of power reasons, plain and simple. They stripped the Thri-Kreen in a frenzy to make it low level compatible.
What would you think about Beholders or Mind Flayers who got watered down that they could be played at fourth level?
Kilamar
If your worried about kreen only being able to use their poison once a day make them take a feat that lets they do so several times day. Its an easy fix.
I personally have no issue with them only being able to use it once a day however.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Kilamar
No, biologically it does not make sense.
They changed that from 2e because of power reasons, plain and simple. They stripped the Thri-Kreen in a frenzy to make it low level compatible.
What would you think about Beholders or Mind Flayers who got watered down that they could be played at fourth level?
Kilamar
The Thri-Kreen venomous bite was never all that big of a deal for me and my players. There's so much more to them than just that one, rather insignificant unique quality.
One thing is that they haven't really watered them down which was a bit of a trend since first edition darksun in my opinion.
I am testing out by playing them in a campaign. So far like I said I am doing well but oddly the poison really isn't becoming an issue. I've bit somebody about 6 times now and rarely has the poison really affected my opponents that much yet. I do not have a high constitution so its not that hard for my opponents to roll their save.
If you intend to use it I'd say beef up on constitution.
I do agree that some of the flavor has been lost and perhaps they may have to balance out the fact that it is easy to make Thri Kreen rangers terrors of the world.
One thing they might try is just make the multi feats additional feats that improve instead of replace the two weapon ones. That way you need to actually spend them in order to get it. Even a thrikreen fighter would need at least 5 feats for the accompanying dexterity and weapon fighting feats necessary.
This excludes multi-attack which is of ocurse standard for a creature like this and pretty useful.
One thing to note is Gythkas are excellent weapons but will probably be a hindrance, I would imagine magical gythkas don't show up in hoards often no matter what the setting. Not that in Darksun you can expect a lot of magical weapons depending on the campaignyou just don't see it often. Lucky just to have an iron weapon.
Want to have some fun force them to have to go through some hoops to get special gythkas or other racial weapons.
Just some thoughts, good discussion.
I suppose you could call me petty... but it REALLY bugs me that my favourite Darksun race was handled perfectly.
regards
the cute and fluffy DM
Originally posted by kreenrunner
Lucky just to have an iron weapon.
Thri-Kreen do not need iron, one of the abilities they forgot.
Kilamar
DS3E from athas.org state :
Level Adjustment +1: Kreen characters start play as a 2-Hit Die monster without class levels, but in terms of gaining experience, they are treated
as 3rd level characters. Kreen with class levels add 3 to their class level for experience purposes.
I don't understand well this, it seems the level adjustement is +2 instead of +1, judging from the description...
Level Adjustment +1: Kreen characters start play as a 2-Hit Die monster without class levels, but in terms of gaining experience, they are treated
They are actually ECL +3. +1 for level adjustment and +2 for the kreen's racial hit dice.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Kilamar
Thri-Kreen do not need iron, one of the abilities they forgot.
Kilamar
They don't really need iron either for this version I believe unless I am reading it wrong. I just meant that it be hard to find magical gythkas.
I also question the logic of a poisonous bite that is only usable once per day. It does not make sense.
Okay, maybe I'm the only person then who has a problem with 'unlimited biological functions'. No creature with a natural poison in my games is able to use it an unlimited number of times per day (unless its some bizarre creature like a poisonous slime or something akin) regardless of what any monster's description may say (logic overrules game statistics whenever they conflict).
In the real world, any venomous creature (snakes and many insects) only have so much venom accumulated. Most of the time, this is simply enough venom for one potent useage. Any creature that can control its usage may very well be able to 'spread' this out a bit, or even withhold the venom from an attack (most snakes are known for giving non venom injecting strikes against something they know they cannot eat; i.e. people). Insects with venom in their bite (excreeted from their mandibles) tend towards a 100% all or nothing approach, oftentimes exhausting their stored supply immediately, even against more insignifigant prey. Granted, there are exceptions, like some hooded crobras (especially ones that spit their venom) who can store vast amounts of venom and use it multiple times in rapid succession, but even then it is still a finite supply and the creature will eventually run out.
So, in taking this all to the thri-kreen, unlimited amounts of venom just doesn't make any sense. Logic dictates that such venom would be of finite supply. So how then do you logically conclude that a thri-kreen should have no limites on the number of times he may bite someone and inject venom? Or are you suggesting that the thri-kreen is able to metabolise his internal liquids into glandular venom at an incredibly accelerated rate, yet still retain its ability to subsist on a very limited amount of water? Up the water consumption to that of a half-giant, and I'd find it more realistic (venom is metabolised homones and water afterall). Ask any PC playing a kreen if he'd rather use his rather weak venom more at the cost of having to drink like a horse and your not likely to get a good response from the player.
Even in 2e I never allowed the unlimited venom. It just didn't jive with logic afterall.
It is only that just once is too few. But you are mistaken that insects and animals go for the all or nothing approach. Even creatures who use poison for defense only have mostly more than one usage in store.
Kilamar
Feat Extra Poison.
3 more uses of kreen poison a day.
Easy fix. :D
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Sysane, The Terror of Urik
It is only that just once is too few. But you are mistaken that insects and animals go for the all or nothing approach. Even creatures who use poison for defense only have mostly more than one usage in store.
With the exception of ants, most other venomous insects indeed store enough poison for a one shot usage. Most snakes, when the infict a venomous strike, inject the vast majority of their venom, with perhaps a small amount of residual venom left over. Sorry, but my experiences have shown this to be the case (having owned more than an ample supply of various snakes, exotic birds, and insects for breeding to sell to wholesalers). Most bees can sting multiple times, yet only the first attempt has what would be considered an ample amount of poison; further stings may have residual venom (there are exceptions in the bee communities). This could easily translate into D&D terms [the first venomous bite inflicts x poison, successive bites inflict x-y, then x- y - y down the line]. Scorpions are an exception, with such concentrated amounts of venom and such large storage sacks, they can sting a few dozen times before depleting their reserves (but in the scorpion's case, it may take a few weeks to manage to store up that amount of venom again. This is a case that could prove an interesting, if cumbersome mechanic for D&D [x number of vemon attacks before depletion occures, y amount of time restores one usage per interval].
Basically, one time per day may be a bit unrealistic, but so too is unlimited usage. You could also base usage on the age of the thri-kreen. One usage of venom per age catagory after becoming an adult. This would keep the kreen from becomming too potent at low levels, but give the kreen no more advantage at later levels (assuming that the kreen's level advancement is roughly on par with its short lifespan; but advancement varies from one game table to the next).
As for spending a feat, the poison as stated in Athas.org simply isn't worth it. Some players may want to take the feat for the purpose of character developement, but it doesn't provide so great of an overall advantage to the PC as to merit the waste of a feat.