I don't know much about undead I guess, so perhaps his condition prevents him from leveling? I don't think that's the case, as NPC undead continue to grow in power all of the time, I can't imagine a spellcaster chosing to become a lich knowing they'd never be able to continue their advancement as a spellcaster... otherwise what's the point of immortality in the first place?
My second question, is if he is unable to complete his change as a result of his being undead, why hasn't he tried to change that? There is at least one example of an epic spell that would restore the undead to life (elven high magic in the forgotten realms setting - obviously up to individuals to decide if it's balanced or not). With his massive level of power, I can't believe he hasn't A) thought of trying to do this or B) failed at it if he did make the attempt.
The answer to these things may just be that he's been working on other stuff, between his research into creating the Dray, his planar traveling, and his aspiring to godhood, plus whatever DA is going to reveal to us, he might not have gotten around to it yet.
Also "epic spells" and the like didn't exist in 2e so that was never a problem. I can't really give you good reasons why Dregoth does or doesn't do anything in 3e as the entire system and structure is different. But in 2e he couldn't advance because of his undead nature and, also in 2e, there was no known way for him to regain his life. So far as I know that fluff has been carried over into 3e but as for "why" in game mechanic terms, I've no idea.
My personal feeling is what I suggested in the first post, that it's a "so much time, so little to do" (strike that - reverse it) issue, but that depending on what happens in DA, I might have him be researching the possibility of returning himself to life as a campaign arc.
It has been hinted that Dregoth is working on a way to continue the metamorphsis even in his undead state.
I would think it would be no small task to restore a Dragon King to life. I also think its one of those factors that readers/players need to suspend there disbelief and meta-gaming that he could restore himself to life but that doens't make for a good story.
How interesting is a game world where everyone you kill is brought back to life just because the game mechanics say you can?
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I'm not talking about using a generic resurrection spell option to do it, I was thinking more along the lines of an epic spell, perhaps beyond even the difficulty and requirements of the dragon metamorphisis itself.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Anyway, what I'd suggest is that an undead creature's body simply isn't able to go through that kind of change (being undead and all).
But if you're looking for something like that in your games (especially as they are 3e) then I say go for it. Come up with whatever epic quest you like and make your PCs a part of it (working for or against). If it will make your games more fun for your group, go with it.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
This is putting a lot of faith into the person you have casting the spell, (Mon Adderath?) and puts them in a position to betray you.
That is a pretty big risk to take in someone just to be restored to a mortal form.
Personally, I've always like the "Undead Dragon King;" it's a cool idea, but it just never rang as logical to me. Something that powerful would not limit its abilities.
reason anyway).
That or he's worried that if he tried to finish the metamorphsis it would bring to much attention to himself. The SK's killed him once, they could do it again. Even if he was a full dragon could he take on serveral SKs himself?
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I admit that his not being able to advance in levels matters more in 3e than in 2e now that epic rules exist. Before it wasn't such a big deal that he could no longer advance, as he only had 1 possible level left to achieve.
As for wish, yeah it could do anything that a resurrection type spell could do, so maybe Dregoth is still undead because he wants to be.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Borys had to be made into a full dragon, they couldn't make him an "almost complete" dragon and still have him be in charge of Rajaat's prison. So there must be some fairly significant power step between an almost and a fully evolved dragon. If Dregoth is the one that developed the process, he has to know what a full dragon is capable of over a partial dragon, I just find it difficult to believe that he's skipping it.
It's like taking a bunch of classes and saying "I don't really need to do those last few credits and get my degree, I'll find a pretty good job with what I have learned already"
The suggestion that the other SK's did something to him when they killed him is a really good one, with clones and contingencies etc, it would be reasonable to think that they went out of their way to prevent him from coming back. They apparently didn't go far enough, but maybe his not-progressing is tied to their actions. Or maybe it is a side effect of the whole dragon process, that a creature must be a "living" being in order to advance.
As far as having his high templar try and do something... the spells from from the elemental vortice, if dregoth "dies" even briefly, before returning to life, is there any guarentee that the templar is going to be able to call upon the source of power needed to manage that second spell brinigng him back to life?
Just speculating here, but did the SK's do anything to him after they slew him? Maybe some sort of enchantment to prevent Dregoth from being restored to life?
I tend to agree with this point of view: I don't think Dregoth would willingly stifle his progress so close to the end.
, he prepared himself in the event of his death to become undead as a backup plan, and the result was a state essentially similar to a kaisharga.
Talk about bad planning on the Dread Kings part. What was wrong with a clone, or contingency spell?
Dregoth must have been sleeping when Rajaat gave that lesson.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
Talk about bad planning on the Dread Kings part. What was wrong with a clone, or contingency spell?
Dregoth must have been sleeping when Rajaat gave that lesson.
Well, everyone's entitled to making a mistake. I think he was more than a little megalomaniacal, and thus, didn't believe that anyone could or would kill him. That his peers would come and do it, he wasn't expecting. Overconfidence seems to be one of hisbiggest failings.
Maybe the only way around the spell(s) the SK put on him to keep him from coming back was to bring Dregoth back in undead form? Better to be undead than truly dead.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Well, everyone's entitled to making a mistake. I think he was more than a little megalomaniacal, and thus, didn't believe that anyone could or would kill him. That his peers would come and do it, he wasn't expecting. Overconfidence seems to be one of hisbiggest failings.
That's an interesting thought, too, and would go a long way to supporting my theory that all the SKs (that came after the "Dregoth incident" anyhow) would have contingency plans in place. So: Tec, Sielba, Kalak would likely have backup plans. Of course, Sielba was done in by Hamanu, so there's a good chance she's so much ash and probably not coming back.
Originally posted by Sysane
I think it makes more scense that the SKs did something to Dregoth after they killed to insure he didn't come back to life (rather than him becoming undead as a back up plan) as previously stated.
Maybe the only way around the spell(s) the SK put on him to keep him from coming back was to bring Dregoth back in undead form? Better to be undead than truly dead.
It could be due to the presence of Hamanu - if Hamanu is the Champion designed to kill the other Champions - maybe Dregoth recognized/discovered something about that - and had a contingency to come back to life if he was killed "normally", and then to undeath if killed by Hamanu (as he may not have been able to come back to life if Hamanu killed him) - taking the over-cautious approach.
She seemed to be the ring leader in the whole slaying of Dregoth deal.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
If that's the case then the Sorcerer-Kings probably didn't have anything to do with it and it wasn't in Dregoth's plans either. I tend to think it was just the best the templar could do. As for why he didn't have any backup plan (clone or whatever) I have to agree with Xlorepdarkhelm in that overconfidence seems to be his biggest problem...well, besides being dead.
If that's the case then the Sorcerer-Kings probably didn't have anything to do with it and it wasn't in Dregoth's plans either.
We weren't saying that the SK turned Dregoth into a kaisharga only that they may have cast something on him to insure that he could not be rasied back to life.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
I'm thinking it was more that Ablache-Ra did something to Dregoth than Hammanu.
She seemed to be the ring leader in the whole slaying of Dregoth deal.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Hamanu's unique qualities are alluded to in the Prism Pentad, and in Rise & Fall of a Dragon King. I honestly believe (and use in my campaigns) that Hamanu is....different than the other Sorcerer-Kings. He's been designed - by Rajaat, as his "Final Champion" - not merely to finish off the Trolls for Myron, but also to ensure the completion of Rajaat's work - killing off the rest of the rebirth races, and the other Champions. He's the only known (through multiple sources) replacement Champion (Rise and Fall claims otherwise, but - it's a single source VS several others). As such, while Abalach-Re might have been a ring-leader for it, Hamanu struck the killing blow with his sword Scorcher, and I think that his unique nature absorbed the energy of Dregoth thus making it impossible for him to use a contigency to come back to life. But Dregoth was able to return as an undead, Kaisharga-like creature.
As Dregoth's undead state was not a planned process but most possibly a contingency emergency measure it can be more difficult or impossible for him to continue the metamorphosis. But I think he doesn't bother with it. If he could be a god he gains much more than he could with this last level a dragonship.
Dregoth was a level 29 dragon, then the SKs lead by Abalach-Re came and killed him
In another thread some months ago there was already an discussion about the difference of "Abalach-Re, the paranoid man eater" as everyone knows her and "Abalach-Re, the initiator of the killing plot against the most powerful being of Athas".
I really liked the idea that Abalach-Re and Dregoth might have been lovers ages ago and the split of the two made her snap and become what she is today.
It would be an explanation why she seems so "weak" yet still is a sorcerer queen and adds tremendously to the dept of the character.
Originally posted by Elonarc
In another thread some months ago there was already an discussion about the difference of "Abalach-Re, the paranoid man eater" as everyone knows her and "Abalach-Re, the initiator of the killing plot against the most powerful being of Athas".
I really liked the idea that Abalach-Re and Dregoth might have been lovers ages ago and the split of the two made her snap and become what she is today.
It would be an explanation why she seems so "weak" yet still is a sorcerer queen and adds tremendously to the dept of the character.
I like that explanation as well, it makes sense why Dregoth would harbor such hatred for her. Perhaps while sharing a romantic dalliance he showed her his "true" form and revealed some of his plans. And so Abalach-Re organized the assault to take him out, but the guilt and loneliness eventually caused her mental gears to start slipping. Perhaps she and Sielba were also "friends" of a sort, and Sielba's death left her with no sorcerer-king allies anymore.
As far as Dregoth's metamorphic state, it makes sense to me that he can no longer advance. From a story point of view, a full dragon, a mockery of life itself, must be living. Mechanics-wise, I don't think sorcerer kings in 3.5 should be a class, instead they're stages of a "dragon" monster template that are innately able to manifest powers and cast spells without class levels. In Dregoth's case, I'd add that while he can cast arcane spells, doing so hurts him, causing damage to him from the effort of channeling life force through his undead frame. (Really tichy damage amounts, like 1d4 per spell level.)
Of course, it's all a moot point, because Dregoth doesn't care to advance any further as a dragon anyway. What he wants is true godhood. It's interesting that both he and Borys use undead in the same fashion, a useful tool but nothing more. Most of Dungeon #110's background materials were okay, some inconsistencies here and there, but some good ideas scattered about. But one glaring problem is Dregoth as sorcerer-king of Raam. City by the Silt Sea makes it pretty clear that Dregoth intended to slaughter the entire city to empower his apotheosis (fat chance of that!), and he really shows little inclination towards death. And also, what happened to the Dray?
Here's an idea of my own as to why, if you're using Dungeon #110 for your campaigns, the Dray aren't present: When Dregoth lead his army to the surface, he found out that the 2nd generation Dray couldn't bear the light of Athas's red sun, and died almost immediately. So Dregoth retreated to brood for awhile, and decided that maybe "undead" was the true path to perfect evolution... like cockroaches, they can survive anywhere, they don't need food, drink, or air to live, and anyone can make the transition to the state. So he returned to Raam, leaving his "imperfect" creations of Dray to their own fate, and began his "city of creation".
Adamantyr
With this in mind, most of the former Champions had to have explored the possibility of undeath as a route to ever-greater mystic and psionic might. I believe the kaisharga process was known even during the Time of Magic (pre-Cleansing Wars), and thus was ignored by the Champions as a source of power.
Thus, when 7 of the remaining Champions ambushed Dregoth, they worked like mad to eliminate any possibility of the mad dragon-king ever coming back...but they failed to notice the possibility of him returning as a kaisharga. As far as Abalach-Re and the others were concerned, Dregoth would be much more manageable in the unlikely event he would be desperate enough to come back as a kaisharga. Furthermore, if he did come back as a kaisharga, they could use the temptation of restoring him to true life as a method of blackmail and control....
--in their minds, it was a reasonable chance to undertake NB
--sometimes the most sterling of generals makes the worst of rulers NB
Page 88, in chapter 6, Dregoth and the Dray, in the City by the Silt Sea:
"In life, Dregoth was a 27th-level dragon, on the verge of achieving the final stage of metamorphis"
OK - that little gem raises all sorts of issues.
#1 - is the reference to the final stage a mistake, a typo, or maybe a vauge reference to the low-mid-high distinctions in the 10-level transformation process?
If you take the final train of thought, then Dregoth HAS advanced since his death.... which flies in the face of everything else, i know, but hey, if you are part of the 'why should undeath prevent advancement' school, there's a potential answer: it doesn't and didn't.
Just when you thought cannon was safe, that comes along.....
Originally posted by Jaanos
Although multiple sources say that Dregoth was a 29th level dragon when he died... this little gem emerges:
Page 88, in chapter 6, Dregoth and the Dray, in the City by the Silt Sea:
"In life, Dregoth was a 27th-level dragon, on the verge of achieving the final stage of metamorphis"
I wouldn't call that a gem so much as a typo. Since everything else says 29th, I would ignore that particular figure.
City by the Silt Sea shows signs of having been edited in a rather chopped fashion. The chapter on Dregoth and the Dray has his biography from his monstrous compendium entry nearly word-for-word repeated, and the same elements of information are restated several times throughout the whole book. The product on a whole is superb, mind you, considering it was the final years of TSR.
Adamantyr
So hard to keep back what I know of DA in regards to this discussion.
Nah, nevermind, I am actually enjoying the torture.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Mwuahahaha!
So hard to keep back what I know of DA in regards to this discussion.
Nah, nevermind, I am actually enjoying the torture.
That's okay, I'm sure it will be released. About the same time that Hamanu decides to go hippie and start a rock band. :D
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Adamantyr
That's okay, I'm sure it will be released. About the same time that Hamanu decides to go hippie and start a rock band. :D
Well, I know there are people on an Epic bureau now, so maybe there's hope it will be out sometime later next year.
Course I could still be dreaming too, hehe.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Well, I know there are people on an Epic bureau now, so maybe there's hope it will be out sometime later next year.
Course I could still be dreaming too, hehe.
I'll try to light a fire under some people. Now.... where's that industrial blow torch at, and just point me in the direction of the oracle's blue shrine. Gotta go start my first fire...
Originally posted by Adamantyr
I wouldn't call that a gem so much as a typo. Since everything else says 29th, I would ignore that particular figure.
City by the Silt Sea shows signs of having been edited in a rather chopped fashion. The chapter on Dregoth and the Dray has his biography from his monstrous compendium entry nearly word-for-word repeated, and the same elements of information are restated several times throughout the whole book. The product on a whole is superb, mind you, considering it was the final years of TSR.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by Jaanos
of course it's a typo, but it still makes for an interesting thought - that dregoth HAS progressed since his death.
I'd say that while he's progressed - it hasn't been as a Dragon. he's been busy, but the advantage of the 3/3.5e multiclass rules is - he's not trapped to specifically develop as a Dragon. And honestly, I believe he's had other things preoccupying his time.
The Hamanu presence theory holds some water. Besides which god would submit to the magic of his worshippers?
Even is his templar can ressurect him (not that he can...) would Dregoth allow it? He returned form the dead by "sheer force of will" to guide his people to the conquest of the world. That seems pretty godlike to me.
About the advancing part:
Really in 2e undead could not advance (as far as I remember). Ravenloft used some rules to circunvent that, but in generalundeath meant a stop in evolution.
In 3e he could be able advance to full dragonhood, BUT if we was cursed in someway, like Azalin (from Ravenloft) that can't learn a new spell or advance in levels?
It would make him frustrated two times: once for his inability to achieve full dragonhood and twice for not be able to become a true god (as I don't know DA end, I can't really back this up except for previous material).
So for me that cuts out Dregoth been raised up again (and if hes dead how does the high templar get the magic power to cast raise dead or resurrect?)
I think Dregoth came back as an undead the same way many of the other athasian undead return to life - he had unfinished business, and it had nothing to do with contingencies or anything similar.
Since he is undead he can no longer advance as a dragon, his body is effectively in stasis, he cant go back to been alive and he cant go forward to been a full dragon.
Also i dont think hes been advancing in any other classes, i dont think any of the advanced beings can level in other classes once they are progressing in their chosen dragon/avangion path. I imagine it would be like paladins/monks multiclassing and been unable to go back - and dregoth REALLY wants to be a full dragon.(or wanted)
I think Dregoth came back as an undead the same way many of the other athasian undead return to life - he had unfinished business, and it had nothing to do with contingencies or anything similar.
Actually, Dregoth was raised as an undead by his lifelong friend Mon Adderath.
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Since he is undead he can no longer advance as a dragon, ..., ... and he cant go forward to been a full dragon.
Too bad there is documentation proving you are wrong on that, heh.
Too bad there is documentation proving you are wrong on that, heh.
Cut the man some slack.
He's not completly wrong. There is documentation stating he couldn't advance in the original CBtSS box set as well.
Originally posted by Sysane
Cut the man some slack.
He's not completly wrong. There is documentation stating he couldn't advance in the original CBtSS box set as well.
Well, when there is new documentation stating otherwise he is, heh.
Wasn't trying to be harsh, just pointing out he's wrong.
Well, when there is new documentation stating otherwise he is, heh.
I take it you mean in DA?
Originally posted by Sysane
I take it you mean in DA?
You would be correct.
A historical moment happens in that adventure and kills that rule completely, despite the fact that 3e killed it already, but that's a mechanic vs. flavor argument.
You would be correct.
Well he's not entirely wrong then. Publicly published and know by the masses takes precedence over privately published and known by the few material.
((hint, hint))Originally posted by Sysane
Well he's not entirely wrong then. Publicly published and know by the masses takes precedence over privately published and known by the few material.
Uh, wow, ok.
Excuse me for not entertaining such bad logic.
I dont think they'll ever release Dregoth Ascending, its too good as a trump card -
Too bad there is documentation proving you are wrong on that, heh.
:D Works for every argument
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Good to know he makes it then. I was wondering about the Ascending bit - whether it was physical (him returning to the surface) or represented him returning to life/becoming a full dragon.
Oh, it's definately physical, and he remains undead.
I dont think they'll ever release Dregoth Ascending, its too good as a trump card
Don't lose hope.
Like I said, we're on the right track, we at least have an Epic bureau up and running.
Excuse me for not entertaining such bad logic.
Bro,
lighten up it was a joke.
And lose the condescending attitude.....
Originally posted by DracoChapel
I dont think they'll ever release Dregoth Ascending, its too good as a trump card
Well, the Epic Bureau is definitely working on meshing out some Epic Rules. Which are rather important, since Dregoth Ascending is well... very Epic. And what does Athas.org have to gain by witholding DA from the public? Nothing other than a bunch of tee'd off fans. It's my impression that DA was a) incomplete, and b) needs some serious work to be updated to 3.5e rules - which if I remember correctly, is something that's part of the deal for releasing it that Wizards of the Coast requires.
Now - I can't say one way or another on what the Epic Bureau has planned, but it will be something that's simplistic and yet not heavily watered down. The people at Athas.org are fans of the campaign setting, and to date, have released rules that retain the flavor of the setting.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, the Epic Bureau is definitely working on meshing out some Epic Rules. Which are rather important, since Dregoth Ascending is well... very Epic. And what does Athas.org have to gain by witholding DA from the public? Nothing other than a bunch of tee'd off fans. It's my impression that DA was a) incomplete, and b) needs some serious work to be updated to 3.5e rules - which if I remember correctly, is something that's part of the deal for releasing it that Wizards of the Coast requires.
Now - I can't say one way or another on what the Epic Bureau has planned, but it will be something that's simplistic and yet not heavily watered down. The people at Athas.org are fans of the campaign setting, and to date, have released rules that retain the flavor of the setting.
Having seen Dregoth Ascending I can say that it was *complete* as it could be as any first draft of a product was back then. It was not edited, nor playtested; however, the plot was there as was the overall "feel" of what the adventure was supposed to be, and everything else needed to play a 2E adventure. As I posted on another thread, it could be released as 2E very easily, but would likely require work on a DM's part to integrate it into a 2E campaign given the fact that 8-9 years have passed since the last DS adventure was released. Really, a 2E editing pass and typesetting would do the trick. The only thing missing would be maps and art; but since most people today prefer 3E+ is probably the reason we have not seen it.
As for your comment on "serious" work to be updated to 3.5, that could be said for anything written 8 or more years ago, in 2E, with some of the old Player's Option (I think) thrown in. The work was simply written for a different genre. Not to start a debate, but I think it's unfair to discount the product on those terms simply because Athas.org has not done it yet. Remember too that I'm sure everyone involved with Athas.org have 'real' lives and do not have 15 hours a day to devote to stuff like this. I think they've done a great job considering, but I too would like to see DA done in 3E or 3.5E. In the end I think DA is a vicitm of circumstance more than anything else.
If anything blast WoTC for allowing this campaign to langish in limbo for some many years when it used to be second fiddle to FR years ago. They refuse to do it themselves (nothing against Eberron, but I would have loved to see DS instead), ask enormous fees for liscensing in an industry that quite frankly sucks right now, and insisting on printing the campaign book themselves which is where the money in any setting really is. Ravenloft was a gift to SS that would never be repeated, and Dragonlance was practically given to Margaret because of who she is --- and that leaves DS in a pile of dung. I've always hoped that someone in Renton would wake up and smell the coffee someday, but I'm more and more convinced that it will never happen.
AnOldGamer
Originally posted by AnOldGamer
I've always hoped that someone in Renton would wake up and smell the coffee someday, but I'm more and more convinced that it will never happen.
Over on the Mystara boards, most of the posters are expressing relief to have been passed over by Paizo and WotC. They don't even mind that the "Isle of Dread" remake will be set in GreyHawk instead, it just helps distance themselves from "official support".
I always look forward to new material, although my present campaign is set in the original timeline era, so I don't even have to worry about Dregoth yet.
The only thing that concerns me is the thought of an "epic-only" campaign setting. The epic rules are far from polished, especially where epic-level spells and powers are concerned. And the original Dark Sun adventures never required 21+ level characters, they found ways around the problem and even had the players scrapping with a sorcerer-king once in awhile, without epic levels.
Granted, the original adventures had their inconsistencies with power levels. Dune Trader has ridiculously high levels for the NPC's listed; I'd suggest anyone converting them reduce their level count by 1/3 to 1/2. Dragon's Crown has multiple 21+ level psionisists that fight the players. The big change here, though, is in 3.5 characters are much stronger at higher levels than they were previously. A 20th level psion in 3.5 is far more powerful than a 20th level psionisist in 2e.
Dark Sun has always been about the underdogs. Fighting to survive, living in the moment. Epic-level games are Dragonball Z style fights where spellcasters run everything. Ask yourself which suits the "flavor" of the setting more.
Adamantyr
Originally posted by AnOldGamer
If anything blast WoTC for allowing this campaign to langish in limbo for some many years when it used to be second fiddle to FR years ago. They refuse to do it themselves (nothing against Eberron, but I would have loved to see DS instead)...
That was a step I never understand: why WotC started searching for new game worlds when there were excellent old ones? (Like DS, Birthright, etc.) Did they have fear that comparing the 2e and the 3e DS would be a cause for dissatisfaction? Or are there other (possibly licensing or other legal) issues in the background we are not aware of? No, in this case they couldn't made the athas.org version an official one... But they could give DS to the Sword and Sorcery guys as they did with Ravenloft. Well... Just loud thinking...
Originally posted by Adamantyr
Over on the Mystara boards, most of the posters are expressing relief to have been passed over by Paizo and WotC.
Ohh, nobody can avoid Fate... Sooner or later you will find the title on the cover of the latest Dragon magazine: "Mystara renewed! New rules, new goodies! Explore the classic AD&D world again!"
You can run but you can't hiiiiiiiiiiiide...
(Poor fellows on the Mystara boards, I honestly wish you all the bests, and I cross my fingers that those day will never come...)
I mean after killing off the guy whos keeping rajaat imprisoned they need someone to take over that job.
And look whos in the corner - a 29th level dragon, mysteriously 7 levels higher than the average SK, and just itching to make it all the way.
I wonder how many people he has to eat to make it, and what special things he has to do to account for his undead state (since i cant imagine that it has NO influence on becoming a full dragon).
And if he makes any new SK's.....
Originally posted by DracoChapel
So im guessing Dregoth was TSR's Borys Mark 2.
I mean after killing off the guy whos keeping rajaat imprisoned they need someone to take over that job.
And look whos in the corner - a 29th level dragon, mysteriously 7 levels higher than the average SK, and just itching to make it all the way.
I wonder how many people he has to eat to make it, and what special things he has to do to account for his undead state (since i cant imagine that it has NO influence on becoming a full dragon).
And if he makes any new SK's.....
Not quite, more like TSR's Rajaat Mark II. Dregoth really doesn't care about the other Champions, or imprisoning Rajaat much. Well, correction, he'd like all the other Champions probably dead for what they did to him.
My personal take on this is - Dregoth developed the Dragon metamorphosis spells when he was still hunting Giants - which is why he stayed in Giustenal for as long as he did. He developed it, and cast it on himself. Rajaat discovered it later and restructured it for his Champion Mark II, a.k.a. Hamanu. Dregoth then even later shows the Dragon metamorphosis process to Borys. Borys then uses the Dark Lens to initiate the Dragon process in the other Sorcerer-Kings (except for Dregoth, who already had begun the process, and Hamanu, who was another kind of Dragon). He needed the other Sorcerer-Kings to become dragons, so that they had more power to provide for him to advance to the final stage. Dregoth may have even suggested Borys undergoes this rather than Dregoth himself, who was using the Dwarf Butcher as a guinea pig, to see the effects of accelerated development has on the individual, and to have some empirical evidence of what happens, so that he could work on counteracting it. Borys goes mad, and Dregoth spends time working on how to overcome the madness himself. Just before he achieves the final stage, his "brothers" and "sisters" kindly murder him. Hamanu, the "freak" delivers the killing blow, disabling any contingency plan Dregoth had (Hamanu's unique nature left an unknown factor in Dregoth's plans). his long-time friend Mon Addaloth (sp?) resurrects him as a Kaisharga-like creature.
The problem he now has is - the final spell only works if the dragon it is being cast upon is living. But - Dregoth found a portal. The only known portal to the Outer Planes.... So, rather than worrying about full Dragonhood, instad the Outer Planes have to worry about a loose undead Athasian Dragon wandering around, learning what he can about the Outer Planes - something even Rajaat could not accomplish.
Heck, I've even run a couple non-Dark Sun campaigns where the group gets some missions/quests from Dregoth in disguise. There was one group which a cleric decided that casting "detect evil" was a good thing, to ensure the honesty of the individual giving them their quest. About 1 1/2 combat rounds later, everyone was making new characters.
how do you find players that keep playing after you have their characters smoked for casting detect evil or no matter what they do the adventure outcome is the same?
Oh, and that's not a bad condensation. I needed to spell out "Xlorep DarkHelm" when I signed up, but had been used to places where spaces were not accepted, so I simply wrote it all out in one long word instead. I found out afterwards that I could have had capitalization and the space in it. Oh well, lessons learned and stuff.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The problem he now has is - the final spell only works if the dragon it is being cast upon is living. But - Dregoth found a portal. The only known portal to the Outer Planes.... So, rather than worrying about full Dragonhood, instad the Outer Planes have to worry about a loose undead Athasian Dragon wandering around, learning what he can about the Outer Planes - something even Rajaat could not accomplish.
I wouldn't say that Rajaat could not accomplish it, I find it difficult to believe that any magical artifact in existence in the world where he discovered magic would be beyond his capacity to create or duplicate the effects of. I would instead say that Rajaat's pursuit of returning Athas to the blue age did not lead him down that path of activity.
Also I really like your take on the history of the dragon metamorphisis process, who developed it, who modified it, what activities surrounded the transformation of all of the champions into dragons. As part of the epic bureau at athas.org, can we assume that your views, specifically a different dragon process for hamanu, your 4 stage dragon metamorphisis process, and the like will be heavily incorporated?
Originally posted by Barmoz
I wouldn't say that Rajaat could not accomplish it, I find it difficult to believe that any magical artifact in existence in the world where he discovered magic would be beyond his capacity to create or duplicate the effects of. I would instead say that Rajaat's pursuit of returning Athas to the blue age did not lead him down that path of activity.
Actually, there is some canon material (hopefully, this will be released soon) that out and out states that Rajaat was incapable of getting to the outer planes. He had devoted many of his resources to accomplish it, and never did.
Also I really like your take on the history of the dragon metamorphisis process, who developed it, who modified it, what activities surrounded the transformation of all of the champions into dragons. As part of the epic bureau at athas.org, can we assume that your views, specifically a different dragon process for hamanu, your 4 stage dragon metamorphisis process, and the like will be heavily incorporated?
Well, don't assume anything, I say. While I'd like to see my system taken in there, I can't promise anything. I also can't really say what we're working on - but it's definitely stepping along in the right direction, I believe. And - it's not stagnating - there's all kinds of activity in the Epic Bureau.