Draconians, death throes and dying - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Draconians, death throes and dying

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2004 1:49:55 Hello out there,

there is one problem that comes up when playing draconian NPCs.

Its stated that, when a draconian dies, they have their death throes in effect.

Of course, in my campaign (and I think in most other campaigns out there) my PCs and NPCs die at -10 HP, not at 0 HPs.

That means, that a draconians death throe only comes into effect at -10 HP.

But I have the feeling that this is against the "flavor" of the draconians and not intended by the authors.

Take the KoD adventure, for example.

SPOILER ------------------------------------------------------------

When the final NPC dies, it is assumed that the death throes come into effect. Of course, if the PCs only bring the NPC down to unconsciousness, he wont "explode" and one major element of the encounter is lost.

How do you handle this in your campaigns?

Greetings,

Rorin
#2
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2004 2:38:40 Depends on the NPC. Principals get treated essentially like characters, only I play them. So the good buddy, the love interest, the primary villain, named heroes making cameos, they get all the hero perks. The featured extras, they don't, they die at zero, unless there is a damn good reason for them not to. Now they have all the hopes and dreams, motivations and what not that they should have, but they're not made of sterner stuff so to speak. Also, if it's a climactic moment, and it's appropriate, there is something to be said for close enough. Maybe they can hang on a little longer, maybe they should go out on that critical hit that took them to three Hp, making the resolution academic and a coup de grace while their asperating blood isn't practical. That said, if you demand every thing must be legit, swap a feat for the one that lets them fight into negative hp, or give the draconian an item that grants it. Assuming the item survives the death throws, and has a cool description, it affords a nominal increase in the party's power, so I'd consider it something of a wash, but a cool memento.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2004 2:53:40 I really don't like it to treat NPCs and PCs different in this aspect. It's like saying only PCs should be able to score a critical hit.

The "brink of death" rule I would say, is as good as core in most campaigns.
But if its available to PCs it should be no different for NPCs, regardless of their "importance".

At least thats the way I handle this and I believe many others, too.

So, without disregarding your opinion, I would appreciate a posting of someone who uses the -10 HP rule for every creature in play.

Do you allow draconians to die at -10 HP, effectively reducing the effect (or the frequency) of the death throes?

Rorin
#4
karui_kage
Jun 17, 2004 4:32:05 For the most part, if its important to the campaign that they die (storyline, plot, drama, whatever) or if I don't think the PCs could use them for anything, then all monsters/villains die at -1 HP. At 0, they are just disabled.

If, on the other hand, there is the possibility that the PCs will want to interrogate someone, use them, keep them alive, etc., then I use the -10 rule.

PCs always die at -10. Constructs,Elementals, and Undead die at 0. I believe that is all that die, by the rules, at 0. Possibly oozes.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2004 7:02:08 Draconians used to melt, explode, petrify, etc. right at 0 hit points. Even the first 3e rules presented in DRACONIAN MEASURES reflected this, and as a purely "monster race" that would be fine. But draconians are now for players as well, not just sword-and-spell fodder.

Ever since our original playtests, I've had draconian death throes happen only at -10. Often that takes away the "sting" of their death throes, and other times it leads to unexpected results, such as the bozak who falls in combat but doesn't explode until 3 rounds later. Of course, when the big fighter of the group (hi Matt!) makes a critical hit, he might very well face a draconian death throe effect in any case.

Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2004 7:37:07 Thanks Jamie,

that was the exact answer I was looking for.

The only irritating thing was the mentioning of the death throes of the red dragonspawn in KoD and how it seemed that it was assumed, that the death throes would fire....

I already handled the situation the same as you, but I am glad for the clarification.

It just seemed "strange" that in earlier revisions of the D&D game, death throes happened all the time and now, only in much rarer circumstances.

Thanx again

Rorin
#7
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2004 20:19:56 Umm...I think I may have been making a vital mistake in DMing this KoD so far.

Are we supposed to treat NPCs the same as PCs when it comes to the -10 rule? I've been having them all die at 0.
#8
karui_kage
Jun 17, 2004 21:41:11 No one has to do anything concerning them.

Technically, only constructs, undead, and elementals die at 0 (maybe oozes and some others).

All other monsters *should* die at -10, and just be Disabled at 0.

Personally, like I said above, its a DM Call. Have the monsters die at 0, -1, -10, or anywhere in between. Personally, I have the types that I said above die at 0, with all other monsters (non PCs) dying at -1. Unless they are NPCs on the PCs side, or possible NPC creatures that the players have interest in keeping alive. Then I go with the -10 rule.

If you're the DM, there's nothing you *have* to do, so just go with what works for you.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 18, 2004 1:13:16 I mean Draconian die at 0. It is better for the Death Throes. When you wait before the Baaz has -10 the weapon is in the next ennemy. Or by the other Draconian the Heros are in the next taverne before the magic detonated in the draconianblood. Look it as Death Blow.

Question: how many Gamemaster use stone to flesh to rescue Baaz?
#10
karui_kage
Jun 18, 2004 1:20:02 Yeah, personally, I prefer -1. Because at 0, they aren't necessarily down. They're just only able to take partial actions, nothing strenuous. At -1, they're unconscious, and then the death throes kick in. ^^
#11
zombiegleemax
Jun 18, 2004 3:10:51 Would you even be able to use Stone to Flesh on a Baaz? I mean, it's only a matter of seconds before they disentigrate.
#12
karui_kage
Jun 18, 2004 3:44:26 Probably, as they don't disintegrate till 1d4 minutes after turning to stone. Of course, using stone to flesh probably wouldn't do much good. It'd only free any stuck weapon, and they'd still be dead. Heck, I imagine they'd still 'crumble' after the 1d4 minutes, to a messy pile of flesh and blood.
#13
zombiegleemax
Jun 18, 2004 13:27:50 Let it me say so: We have adiscussion in a other Dragonlance Board to the question : When turn Draconian to stone or explode. We have long discussed. And then with all the different concepts, i have become the idea to style a battle between a normaly human army and a draconian army. In the draconian army was all 5 old school Draconian. I would see how strong are the abilities the they have in a combat with death throes and how can a general they best use. I have make a plan of battle. Let it me say so: We have nether see or read more as 20% of they efficiency. Or the dragonlords was so stupid. Ok i have full projected that some of the draconian die and to play so theirs death throes. But in the first time they have enough draconian. Every Army they fight again a draconian army go down. By my research i have read in the DLCS that Baaz restored to life. And this is a extra heavy Weapon when they was exact used.
#14
karui_kage
Jun 18, 2004 23:10:27 I highly disagree that it would restore them to life. All stone to flesh does is turn stone objects into flesh objects again. By the spell's description, let's say someone was turned to stone by a basilisk. Let's say that they were only at half hit points. When they get turned back to flesh, they are still at half hit points. Likewise, if they lose a limb while in stone form, and then get turned back to flesh, not only to they still lose that limb, but they would take additional damage for it.

By this logic, a person knocked down to -1 or -10 before turning to stone would still be at those hit points. Turning them back into flesh creatures doesn't heal them, and using Stone to Flesh to do so would make it too powerful. They are called Death Throes, and I guess you could try to argue that ridding the creature of the Death Throes rids them of the death, but that's illogical. The Death Throes happen when the creature dies. Turning them back into flesh creatures won't pull the spirit back into their body. You'll need Raise Dead to do that, and that's presuming the body hasn't crumbled by then. Otherwise, something more powerful is needed.
#15
zombiegleemax
Jun 19, 2004 1:15:32 Raise Dead ist god idea. But in the DLCS stand written resurrection, true resurection or wish spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 1:49:55	Hello out there, there is one problem that comes up when playing draconian NPCs. Its stated that, when a draconian dies, they have their death throes in effect. Of course, in my campaign (and I think in most other campaigns out there) my PCs and NPCs die at -10 HP, not at 0 HPs. That means, that a draconians death throe only comes into effect at -10 HP. But I have the feeling that this is against the "flavor" of the draconians and not intended by the authors. Take the KoD adventure, for example. SPOILER ------------------------------------------------------------ When the final NPC dies, it is assumed that the death throes come into effect. Of course, if the PCs only bring the NPC down to unconsciousness, he wont "explode" and one major element of the encounter is lost. How do you handle this in your campaigns? Greetings, Rorin
#2 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 2:38:40	Depends on the NPC. Principals get treated essentially like characters, only I play them. So the good buddy, the love interest, the primary villain, named heroes making cameos, they get all the hero perks. The featured extras, they don't, they die at zero, unless there is a damn good reason for them not to. Now they have all the hopes and dreams, motivations and what not that they should have, but they're not made of sterner stuff so to speak. Also, if it's a climactic moment, and it's appropriate, there is something to be said for close enough. Maybe they can hang on a little longer, maybe they should go out on that critical hit that took them to three Hp, making the resolution academic and a coup de grace while their asperating blood isn't practical. That said, if you demand every thing must be legit, swap a feat for the one that lets them fight into negative hp, or give the draconian an item that grants it. Assuming the item survives the death throws, and has a cool description, it affords a nominal increase in the party's power, so I'd consider it something of a wash, but a cool memento.
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 2:53:40	I really don't like it to treat NPCs and PCs different in this aspect. It's like saying only PCs should be able to score a critical hit. The "brink of death" rule I would say, is as good as core in most campaigns. But if its available to PCs it should be no different for NPCs, regardless of their "importance". At least thats the way I handle this and I believe many others, too. So, without disregarding your opinion, I would appreciate a posting of someone who uses the -10 HP rule for every creature in play. Do you allow draconians to die at -10 HP, effectively reducing the effect (or the frequency) of the death throes? Rorin
#4 karui_kage Jun 17, 2004 4:32:05	For the most part, if its important to the campaign that they die (storyline, plot, drama, whatever) or if I don't think the PCs could use them for anything, then all monsters/villains die at -1 HP. At 0, they are just disabled. If, on the other hand, there is the possibility that the PCs will want to interrogate someone, use them, keep them alive, etc., then I use the -10 rule. PCs always die at -10. Constructs,Elementals, and Undead die at 0. I believe that is all that die, by the rules, at 0. Possibly oozes.
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 7:02:08	Draconians used to melt, explode, petrify, etc. right at 0 hit points. Even the first 3e rules presented in DRACONIAN MEASURES reflected this, and as a purely "monster race" that would be fine. But draconians are now for players as well, not just sword-and-spell fodder. Ever since our original playtests, I've had draconian death throes happen only at -10. Often that takes away the "sting" of their death throes, and other times it leads to unexpected results, such as the bozak who falls in combat but doesn't explode until 3 rounds later. Of course, when the big fighter of the group (hi Matt!) makes a critical hit, he might very well face a draconian death throe effect in any case. Jamie Chambers Sovereign Press, Inc.
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 7:37:07	Thanks Jamie, that was the exact answer I was looking for. The only irritating thing was the mentioning of the death throes of the red dragonspawn in KoD and how it seemed that it was assumed, that the death throes would fire.... I already handled the situation the same as you, but I am glad for the clarification. It just seemed "strange" that in earlier revisions of the D&D game, death throes happened all the time and now, only in much rarer circumstances. Thanx again Rorin
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 20:19:56	Umm...I think I may have been making a vital mistake in DMing this KoD so far. Are we supposed to treat NPCs the same as PCs when it comes to the -10 rule? I've been having them all die at 0.
#8 karui_kage Jun 17, 2004 21:41:11	No one has to do anything concerning them. Technically, only constructs, undead, and elementals die at 0 (maybe oozes and some others). All other monsters should die at -10, and just be Disabled at 0. Personally, like I said above, its a DM Call. Have the monsters die at 0, -1, -10, or anywhere in between. Personally, I have the types that I said above die at 0, with all other monsters (non PCs) dying at -1. Unless they are NPCs on the PCs side, or possible NPC creatures that the players have interest in keeping alive. Then I go with the -10 rule. If you're the DM, there's nothing you have to do, so just go with what works for you.
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2004 1:13:16	I mean Draconian die at 0. It is better for the Death Throes. When you wait before the Baaz has -10 the weapon is in the next ennemy. Or by the other Draconian the Heros are in the next taverne before the magic detonated in the draconianblood. Look it as Death Blow. Question: how many Gamemaster use stone to flesh to rescue Baaz?
#10 karui_kage Jun 18, 2004 1:20:02	Yeah, personally, I prefer -1. Because at 0, they aren't necessarily down. They're just only able to take partial actions, nothing strenuous. At -1, they're unconscious, and then the death throes kick in. ^^
#11 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2004 3:10:51	Would you even be able to use Stone to Flesh on a Baaz? I mean, it's only a matter of seconds before they disentigrate.
#12 karui_kage Jun 18, 2004 3:44:26	Probably, as they don't disintegrate till 1d4 minutes after turning to stone. Of course, using stone to flesh probably wouldn't do much good. It'd only free any stuck weapon, and they'd still be dead. Heck, I imagine they'd still 'crumble' after the 1d4 minutes, to a messy pile of flesh and blood.
#13 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2004 13:27:50	Let it me say so: We have adiscussion in a other Dragonlance Board to the question : When turn Draconian to stone or explode. We have long discussed. And then with all the different concepts, i have become the idea to style a battle between a normaly human army and a draconian army. In the draconian army was all 5 old school Draconian. I would see how strong are the abilities the they have in a combat with death throes and how can a general they best use. I have make a plan of battle. Let it me say so: We have nether see or read more as 20% of they efficiency. Or the dragonlords was so stupid. Ok i have full projected that some of the draconian die and to play so theirs death throes. But in the first time they have enough draconian. Every Army they fight again a draconian army go down. By my research i have read in the DLCS that Baaz restored to life. And this is a extra heavy Weapon when they was exact used.
#14 karui_kage Jun 18, 2004 23:10:27	I highly disagree that it would restore them to life. All stone to flesh does is turn stone objects into flesh objects again. By the spell's description, let's say someone was turned to stone by a basilisk. Let's say that they were only at half hit points. When they get turned back to flesh, they are still at half hit points. Likewise, if they lose a limb while in stone form, and then get turned back to flesh, not only to they still lose that limb, but they would take additional damage for it. By this logic, a person knocked down to -1 or -10 before turning to stone would still be at those hit points. Turning them back into flesh creatures doesn't heal them, and using Stone to Flesh to do so would make it too powerful. They are called Death Throes, and I guess you could try to argue that ridding the creature of the Death Throes rids them of the death, but that's illogical. The Death Throes happen when the creature dies. Turning them back into flesh creatures won't pull the spirit back into their body. You'll need Raise Dead to do that, and that's presuming the body hasn't crumbled by then. Otherwise, something more powerful is needed.
#15 zombiegleemax Jun 19, 2004 1:15:32	Raise Dead ist god idea. But in the DLCS stand written resurrection, true resurection or wish spell.