--previous supplements have explicitly denied lifeshaping being magical NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Would you consider the "species creation" power of the Pristine Tower to Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural in type? I've been puzzling over this for some time. Since the Pristine Tower caused the Rebirth through the secrets of lifeshaping, wouldn't this strange power be Ex instead of Sp or Su?
--previous supplements have explicitly denied lifeshaping being magical NB
It seems to me that the pristine tower emanates a natural aura of mutation (radiation, for exemple) so this would be non-magical aura, so it would not be affected by dismissal spells (dispel magic, mordenkainen disjunction and ect). With this piece of information the aura would be neither (Sp) nor (Su) since both are affected by dispel magic or anti-magic shell... So it only remained (Ex)...
--I guess it all boils down to whether lifeshaping is magical or not NB
I guess it all boils down to whether lifeshaping is magical or not NB
I always saw it as science, not magic. The effects generated by lifeshaped items are likewise non magical as well, at least in my games it is.
So I'd also agree that the mutating aura would be an extrordinary ability, even if the mutations themselves sparked psionics or other spell-like abilities.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I imagine the pristine tower is infested with bacteria/microbes that are constantly created by the tower. These bacteria get into wounds in people and then mutate their flesh/bones in ways that change them.
This process also gives them magical ACCESS, so the tower could be like the elemental vortices, granting magical abilities (in the form of natural spell-like abilities) and the ability to learn magic (once rhajaat 'created' the means of accessing it).
Im not saying the tower is the source of magic, just that it changed the halflings into the new-races and as a side effect gave them magic.
my question is how did the new races reproduce? was there a wierd human-like creature that reproduced with another human-ish creature and end result was DS human?
Originally posted by DracoChapel
I think its an extraordinary effect, sort of a lifechanging aura.
I imagine the pristine tower is infested with bacteria/microbes that are constantly created by the tower. These bacteria get into wounds in people and then mutate their flesh/bones in ways that change them.
This process also gives them magical ACCESS, so the tower could be like the elemental vortices, granting magical abilities (in the form of natural spell-like abilities) and the ability to learn magic (once rhajaat 'created' the means of accessing it).
Im not saying the tower is the source of magic, just that it changed the halflings into the new-races and as a side effect gave them magic.
my question is how did the new races reproduce? was there a wierd human-like creature that reproduced with another human-ish creature and end result was DS human?
Umm..... First off - there's already books stating divine magic existed in the Blue Age.
Second...... arcane magic didn't show up until a little pyreen by the name of Rajaat thought it would be like a super happy fun slide thing to do for the world.
I think the word you are looking for there is "psionics". The Pristine Tower had a side effect of introducing Psionics into the world.
Third - the initial rebirth resulted in actual, complete races - almost as if by intended design (which, if I recall, is strongly hinted at or suggested in some material).
Fourth - the "New Races" are a far cry from being like the Rebirth Races - they are more confused and many cannot even survive the process.
Fifth - I believe any rebirth race can actually interbreed with any other rebirth race and produce offspring - after all, they all came from Halflings.
Sixth - from what I've been told - official rules might roll out, when a couple new releases are completed from Athas.org.
Now for the original question.... I'd rule probably Supernatural or Extraordinary - it's not a feature that's able to be just turned off (or else that area would be less hazordous). Spell Like implies some sort of magic at work there, and I don't think magic had anything to do with it.
Heck, I try to keep psionics and magic as much as possible out of the Rhulisti socieites of the Blue Age - however, I tend to think of them more as a highly technological race (Sci-Fi), which used biotech for pretty much everything. I've even considered having a contingent of them return in a campaign, modelled after the Yuusong Vong from Star Wars (which, in turn, was a race that was highly influenced by the Dark Sun Rhulisti, as many of the authors and game developers for Dark Sun moved to Star Wars when they got laid off by TSR - and they came up with the main plots for the "New Jedi Order" Era). I only think it fitting that the race most directly influenced by the Rhulisti, should be used in my campaign when I reintroduce the Rhulisti back to the world of Athas. Not on spelljamming ships - but giant starships and "coral skipper" fightercraft.
Link.
Ran across this a while back. Haven't tried it out but you might find some ideas here
.Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Umm..... First off - there's already books stating divine magic existed in the Blue Age...I think the word you are looking for there is "psionics". The Pristine Tower had a side effect of introducing Psionics into the world.
Are you certain of that, xlorep?
I was under the impression that psionics did exist during the Blue Age, though certainly nowhere close to the current level of saturation?
Per the "Gith Bomb" that went off in ancient times, mutating the gith into what they are today, and driving them insane, and granting the other races psionic powers. I seem to recall this information being from Black Flames, and one other source I can find on the 'net mentions the same (so I'm sure it is not entirely in my head).
Look under the Githzerai history section here: "The Gith were created by a psionic bomb the Githzerai launched against the Githyanki colonies of Athas."
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Umm..... First off - there's already books stating divine magic existed in the Blue Age.
Second...... arcane magic didn't show up until a little pyreen by the name of Rajaat thought it would be like a super happy fun slide thing to do for the world.
I think the word you are looking for there is "psionics". The Pristine Tower had a side effect of introducing Psionics into the world.
Third - the initial rebirth resulted in actual, complete races - almost as if by intended design (which, if I recall, is strongly hinted at or suggested in some material).
Fourth - the "New Races" are a far cry from being like the Rebirth Races - they are more confused and many cannot even survive the process.
Fifth - I believe any rebirth race can actually interbreed with any other rebirth race and produce offspring - after all, they all came from Halflings.
Sixth - from what I've been told - official rules might roll out, when a couple new releases are completed from Athas.org.
First off i missed that, so sorry. I should also have been more precise, i meant arcane magic.
Second I know rajaat made Wizard magic, but he didnt create the potential of using magic. It just took a crazy pyreen with too much time on his hands to give the rebirth races access to arcane magic. And since halflings cant use arcane magic (and thri-kreen as well) i thought it was something to do with the pristine tower and creating the new demi-human races.
third/fourth/fifth i had a look at the 'new' 2e dark sun wanderers journal last nite (while looking for something else) and must apologise :sad: for getting this part so wrong. you are right, it does seem like the halflings originally used the pristine tower to change themselves into specific pre-defined races, or at least use templates with variations (elves are tall, dwarves are short and stocky etc.)
But now the pristine tower warps the races randomly, though whether its broken or been changed
My guess is rajaat changed it when using the dark lens.Also the yuuzhan vong-rhulisti link is very interesting.
Originally posted by DracoChapel
First off i missed that, so sorry. I should also have been more precise, i meant arcane magic.
Second I know rajaat made Wizard magic, but he didnt create the potential of using magic. It just took a crazy pyreen with too much time on his hands to give the rebirth races access to arcane magic. And since halflings cant use arcane magic (and thri-kreen as well) i thought it was something to do with the pristine tower and creating the new demi-human races.
Actually, Halflings can. In DS1, Halflings could be preservers. In fact, the Wanderer's Journal states that halfling chiefs are Preservers. Plus - in 3rd edition, all races can be all classes anyway. The idea Halflings couldn't use magic was introduced in DS2, as was the removal of the templar class.
third/fourth/fifth i had a look at the 'new' 2e dark sun wanderers journal last nite (while looking for something else) and must apologise :sad: for getting this part so wrong. you are right, it does seem like the halflings originally used the pristine tower to change themselves into specific pre-defined races, or at least use templates with variations (elves are tall, dwarves are short and stocky etc.)
But now the pristine tower warps the races randomly, though whether its broken or been changed
Rajaat changed the Pristine Tower to suit his needs - he refitted it with new rooms, and other such things, and basically made it into where he taught his most important and best suited students about defiling and becoming Champions. I'd say the mutations that occur around the tower are the side effects of his meddling.
Also the yuuzhan vong-rhulisti link is very interesting.
Isn't it tho? The Yuusong Vong aren't actually Rhulisti, but they were largely inspired from them.
As for psionics, that came about due to the Rebirth. It was a (possibly) unintended side-effect from the massive mutations almost all life forms on Athas underwent during the Rebirth. Considering that the Rebirth was the single greatest act of lifeshaping ever (i.e., they terraformed an entire planetary ecosystem, from the ground on up), it's not entirely surprising the last rhulisti naturemasters accidentally created little "slip-ups" like psionics.
As for arcane magic, I have a theory on that. See, Rajaat spent centuries exploring the ruins of the Blue Age, learning about lifeshaping, naturemastery, naturebending, and so on. He probably took those basic principles, and just expanded on them. After all, lifeshaping possibly requires chanting...
--check out Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs for details NB
I'd say the mutations that occur around the tower are the side effects of his [Rajaat's] meddling.
Now, I'm not saying your wrong or right with this one, but if you can back it up that would be great. Not that I'm going to change my already established backstory, but I just like to know where my own ideas are divergent from canon. I had been under the assumption that the mutating effects of the Pristine Tower were the left over results of the Rebirth. In my campaign, there are several other rhulisti sites quite similar to the Pristine Tower. If the mutating effects are the results of Rajaat's tamperings, then the aura would be confined to only the Pristine Tower itself, and not the other five that I've developed.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Now, I'm not saying your wrong or right with this one, but if you can back it up that would be great. Not that I'm going to change my already established backstory, but I just like to know where my own ideas are divergent from canon. I had been under the assumption that the mutating effects of the Pristine Tower were the left over results of the Rebirth. In my campaign, there are several other rhulisti sites quite similar to the Pristine Tower. If the mutating effects are the results of Rajaat's tamperings, then the aura would be confined to only the Pristine Tower itself, and not the other five that I've developed.
Hence the phrase "I'd say", implying it is my opinion, and not something necessarily found in a book. However - look at it this way - if the Rebirth produced the various races, but now produce things that just don't seem to always work right - what happened? Something broke the system. Rajaat made modifications to the tower to suit his own purposes (I forget which book states that), and as such, it could have very well thrown the balance of the equasion off, resulting in the bizzare mutations rather than perfect races. My idea is - the mutating effect originally made complete races, and that was the effect that caused the rebirth. The freaky, twisted, beastial mutations that happen now are what happened when Rajaat meddled with the tower. As well as - what if he was trying to find a way to "heal" himself originally - after all, it's what he is that he loaths so much. Another fun thought is - what if he originally wasn't so deformed - but the tower made him so, and also took hiw sanity?
Isn't it tho? The Yuusong Vong aren't actually Rhulisti, but they were largely inspired from them.
As much as I hate to state this, but I think the Rhulisti were loosely based on the concept of Cobra-La from G.I. Joe: The Movie. I'll get flamed for this observation no doubt but Cobra-La's whole soceity was based on organic/living weapons, clothing, transportation, etc... Hell, some of the illustration from WRoTJC book look like their based from that moive.
If you haven't seen the movie or some what remember it watch it before totally disagreing.
I never saw the movie, but i had the little men - the one guy that was half snake, the one with wings and the bug eyed red one in armour.
They were very lovecraftian i thought, a missing race of humanoids that had d/evolved into something different from humans.
I think id rather the Yuuzhan Vong were based on the Rhulisti, at least it would explain the sudden tangent the Star Wars universe seemed to head off into.
"yeah, we'll call them yuuzhan vong, ooh, and theres this evil sith lord called Rajaat that has 13 sith apprentices, we'll call them champions, and are trying to kill all the non-human races."
In actuality, when TSR dropped Dark Sun, that was about the time which Star Wars was filling out, so many of them migrated to Star Wars. When the authors decided to introduce a massive storyline/plot, called "The New Jedi Order Era", they drew ideas from past projects they had been on. The Dark Sun people brought in the idea of the Rhulisti Space Halfling plot that was supposed to be for Dark Sun, and adjusted/adapted it for Star Wars. The similarities between the Yuusong Vong (who have pure organic technology, and are invisible/blind to the Force - basically psionics, and fly around in large coral-like vessels) and the Rhulisti (who have life-shaping, which is organic technology, and, if Wind Riders of the Jagged Cliffs is correct, were inable to use psionics and even considered them an abberation, and were supposed to have crash-landed in a vessel, probably coral-like that was the Messenger) And there are many other similarities between the two - heck, the Yuusong Vong backstory even hints at Athas, without specifically stating it.
If I was to introduce the "Space Halfings" concept to a Dark Sun campaign, I would use the Yuusong Vong as my base. Which would make for some very...err...challenging problems for the people of Athas.
If I was to introduce the "Space Halfings" concept to a Dark Sun campaign, I would use the Yuusong Vong as my base. Which would make for some very...err...challenging problems for the people of Athas.
Now that sounds like a fun campaign. Do/were you going to use the star wars rules for the Yuuzhan vong or go your own way?
The Yuuzhan vong wouldnt take much changing, other than their ships (which you could either crash or make unarmed transport vessels) and some of their abilities. I love the picture of a yuuzhan vong-type army complete with their giant beasts going into battle against a SK's army complete with Driks, defilers and half giants.
Would your Yuuzhan vong hate psionics? I think they should and have no problem with magic, make an interesting change from the typical "psionic good, magic bad". But i suppose they would dislike the defilers and their plant destruction.
Pretty left field idea of yours
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
--I guess it all boils down to whether lifeshaping is magical or not NB
I know you'll probably laft at me but consider this.
Life shaping is not magical but rather scientific (I know, Mach said it before. Ijust happen to agree 100% with him) and here is why.
(and this is the part that may make you smile but think of it and it make sence) Life-shaping is: to be able to manipulate throught scientific (complicated)rituals, the very building-blocks of what makes life-- and that's canon.
I see them as scientific savants capable of doing what ever they feel like(BlueAgeTime) with the DNA of all things with the help of the one material witch seem's to be able to *copy*anything, either organic or not.
Also the very difference between Life-shaping and magic( other than mention above), is the time consuming work,effort and dedication a life-shaped WhatEver needs to get to *maturity*. (exactly like a doctor or rather a genetisist on it's *DNA-Subject*
Magic is almost to easy once you found how it worked and its more often then not an immediat result(not life-shaping)
--Anyway that's what I think of it(See how I follow my Mindë theory here:D . Steal, I'm sure I'm not far from the trough.
Concerning the PTower. Well it was Grown by the Rhulistis and at that point it was an extraordinary *artifact* but then came rajaat who made some changes to it of it's ouwn liking. Who knows what hes done!! It may well be part magical today. Jihun
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Now that sounds like a fun campaign. Do/were you going to use the star wars rules for the Yuuzhan vong or go your own way?
My rules I use are already pretty close to the Star Wars d20 system, so I'll not need to change the rules much.
The Yuuzhan vong wouldnt take much changing, other than their ships (which you could either crash or make unarmed transport vessels) and some of their abilities. I love the picture of a yuuzhan vong-type army complete with their giant beasts going into battle against a SK's army complete with Driks, defilers and half giants.
Would your Yuuzhan vong hate psionics? I think they should and have no problem with magic, make an interesting change from the typical "psionic good, magic bad". But i suppose they would dislike the defilers and their plant destruction.
Pretty left field idea of yours
Actually, I was seeing that Psionics and the Force were pretty close to the same thing - so as such, they would be "blind" and "invisible" to Psionics - meaning they can't use it, and most psionics are useless against them. And, since Magic is the abberation to the world, I was seeing Magic and Mechanical Technology representing the same concept when transferring the Yuusong Vong to Dark Sun - so they would hate magic with a passion (much like how the Yuusong Vong are with mechanical Technology in Star Wars). Of course, there wouldn't be the full Yuusong Vong fleet - possibly one ship or so - like if the Messenger was actually a Yuusong Vong worldship that crashed, caused the Great Earthquake, and now they are slowly spreading across the world.
But yes - it would be a fun fight to have Sorcerer-Kings, in all their power, with massive armies, fighting against a Yuusong Vong incursion. The Yuusong Vong, realizing that this was once their homeworld, may also begin a massive Terraforming Project. plus, their biological technology is most definitely neither psionic nor magical - any more than a bard's poisons, or the arena gladiator's unenchanted weapons are magical or psionic.