Cyric Firehands
The essence of magic is everywhere: in the life of plants, the life of animals, the light of the sun, and— as Rajaat knew very, very well, the forbidding depths of the Black itself.
Even the light of the moons has power. And the Gray too.
You can choose for yourself if oil has any inherent power.
But I would rather put oil and dust into a no-power category. Stuff like raw elements (earth, silt, rain), though, has power in it, but elemental power, not the kind that can be manipulated by a wizard.
Also - who the heck would even use crude oil on Athas? Tar isn't all that necessary for ships, as there's no water to deal with. Lamp Oil is used from animal or plant oils, plastics aren't invented, and nobody needs gasoline or diesel or other fossil fuels for things like cars or whatever.
And your basis is slightly outta whack. the majority of the known oil reserves aren't in the middle east. they are in the arctic region, specifically Alaska and parts of Siberia. We just have been USING the oil from the middle east more.
Most makeups and things like that I think would come from animals and plants.
Seriously doubt the tech level on Athas, minus the magic and psionics aspect of it, is even high enough to make any good use out of something like oil anyways.
You can set people on fire with it. So what do you think, is there or is there not oil in Athas?Ho, and Dragon Crown has a small adventure with oil in it.
Kilamar
--never mind the fact that templars capable of spell-casting can do it, too NB
I don't know if that helps this argument or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
i'm going ot have to jump o nthe bandwagon here. but as these others say, who gives a crap if there is?
Ummmmm, Cyric does. Hence the reason for this thread.
I think its a reasonable question. I don't think it has anything to do with with the way magic works on Athas, but there could be some significants in DS.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Mach2.5
While the climates may be similar, the geological events that led to both the Middle East and Athas becoming vast deserts were very different. The Middle East wasn not always a desert, even going back through written history. Athas though, did not simply have a gradual climate change that would cause the rapid (geologically speaking) dying out of many areas of fertile plains that would then become buried and decompose into oil. The plant life of Athas was literally killed off without the ability to decompose. It would be very unlikely that large oil deposits could be found in the Tableland's region, unless of course they were there during the Green Age. It would be more likely to find oil in the silt sea (which is much lower to the sea floor that the water levels of Earth's oceans), though getting to it would be nearly impossible.
That is an interesting point. It makes me think, maybe oil could be found on the salt flats, since in all likelyhood they were previously an ocean (hence the massive salt deposits, left from when the ocean evaporated).
The middle east was sea floor for millions of years before plate techtonics pushed it above the sea level.
The middle east does have the most oil reserves in the world, and not the arctic regions, however, I would wager there is a lot more oil in the pacific ocean than in the middle east, however, getting it is a lot more difficult.
Tar is very useful in Dark Sun! Never under estimate what a culdron of tar poored on sieging soldiers and the addition of flame can do for defenders.
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
Tar is very useful in Dark Sun! Never under estimate what a culdron of tar poored on sieging soldiers and the addition of flame can do for defenders.
Remember that no one has made war on a city in hundreds of years, if not millenia. Battles are fought by meeting on the battlefield. Most athasian cities have high walls and do not possess the aparatus necessary to drop boiling oil on enemy units. The technology barelly exists to take down those walls. Searching for references to engines of war will reveal that Athas is not crawling under rolling towers or giant battering rams. A few exists, but nothing like in FR or Eberon.
If you've seen the movie Troy, tell yourself that outside of Draj and Gulg, all cities have the walls of Troy. So no use for droping boiling oil. Stay on the other side and shoot: no one will breach them. Conflicts between cities mostly destroys client villages until the city being attacked sends an army to fend off the invaders and protect its investments.
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
I am not sure how old Athas is, but unless it is hundreds of millions of years old, it is unlikely to have any oil or coal at all.
The middle east was sea floor for millions of years before plate techtonics pushed it above the sea level.
The middle east does have the most oil reserves in the world, and not the arctic regions, however, I would wager there is a lot more oil in the pacific ocean than in the middle east, however, getting it is a lot more difficult.
Not to get into a political dispute - but there has never been any conclusive evidence proving this to be the case. It's just the most accepted.
Tar is very useful in Dark Sun! Never under estimate what a culdron of tar poored on sieging soldiers and the addition of flame can do for defenders.
True enough, but I'd say in a resource-scarce world, this would also be scarce.
So no use for droping boiling oil. Stay on the other side and shoot: no one will breach them.
Actually, the Dragon-Kings book does indicate that a moderate level of inventive technologies exist that could aid in seige warfare. And oil casks dropped from the back of a cliff glider or razorwing at an archer formation below would work its own little miracle on the battlefield. Pits dug and filled with oil can make interesting falls for approaching armies (think of the movie Beastmaster ;)). Tar pits, or better yet, trenches, can make cavalry almost useless as the mounts legs become weighted down in thick pitch, even after clearing the trench. All this, and its flamable too! Flaming arrows, while not nearly as efficient as Hollywood makes out, can still be a very demoralizing sight for infantry charges. They are however, quite effective when combined with catapults that are launching oil filled pottery at seige towers and mekillot rams (a mekillot that has been spooked by the smoke of burning framework may very well stampede its own troops, scattering formations and breaking ranks of even the most well trained soldiers).
In Athas, fire (and the oil used to ignite fires) is probably even more usefull on the battlefield than in medival times, mostly due to the complete lack of water necessary to put out those fires. Any intelligent or resourceful strategist would see its usefullness and use it to its utmost.
So, if oil is as rare and precious as water in your campaign, then it use is probably going to be limited. If its more common though, then put it to use the next time you run any larger scale battles and have a blast with it.
As for wether magic could draw energy from oil, I doubt it since oil is not alive, hence no life energy would exist to draw from. The 'light of the sun' would be fine, since that is a step in the process of life itself (for plants anyhow), they Grey and Black could be said to be filled with tappable magical energy. Oil though, is dead matter. Unless you deem it logical that energy can be drawn from unliving substances (rocks, mountains, saltflats, etc) in your game, then I would say to treat oil as a barren resource for wizards. If they can't draw from saltflats, then they shouldn't be able to draw from oil fields (granted there is a ton of micro-organisms that live in oil, there are also a few animals able to sustain themselves in salt fields in real life as well).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Actually, the Dragon-Kings book does indicate that a moderate level of inventive technologies exist that could aid in seige warfare.
Hence why I said "Searching for references to engines of war will reveal that Athas is not crawling under rolling towers or giant battering rams. A few exists, but ..." :P
My extremely small qualm was with "pouring a cauldron of tar on seiging soldiers". Epic close-quarter combat at a city's doors - like that in LofR's The Two Towers when the orcs try to get over the wall at Helm's Deep - has not been seen with the Seven Cities since a long time. Last that it came near that was with Rikus' invasion of Urik, and that's because the Heroes of Tyr did not know of the larger issues, like that Hamanu could call upon the Dragon to re-establish the peace, that he was way stronger than Kalak, and that at the time they were the only people in control of a city-state who did not know those facts.
And oil casks dropped from the back of a cliff glider or razorwing at an archer formation below would work its own little miracle on the battlefield. Pits dug and filled with oil can make interesting falls for approaching armies (think of the movie Beastmaster ;)). Tar pits, or better yet, trenches, can make cavalry almost useless as the mounts legs become weighted down in thick pitch, even after clearing the trench. All this, and its flamable too! Flaming arrows, while not nearly as efficient as Hollywood makes out, can still be a very demoralizing sight for infantry charges. They are however, quite effective when combined with catapults that are launching oil filled pottery at seige towers and mekillot rams (a mekillot that has been spooked by the smoke of burning framework may very well stampede its own troops, scattering formations and breaking ranks of even the most well trained soldiers).
All the way with you there.
In Athas, fire (and the oil used to ignite fires) is probably even more usefull on the battlefield than in medival times, mostly due to the complete lack of water necessary to put out those fires. Any intelligent or resourceful strategist would see its usefullness and use it to its utmost.
Yep.
has not been seen with the Seven Cities since a long time.
I fully agree with you there. In fact, the only other references to a full scale city seige before the Crimson Legion is the razing of Yaramuke by Hamanu and the Fall of Guistinal by the combined Champions. There may be one in Elves of Athas (the only book that I've never fully picked apart and digested), but even then, it's probably a minor reference.
And still we stray from the topic. Ahh well.
As far as oil goes, there are many (non-US) scientists who believe that oil is not rotted vegatable matter, rather a natural process of compression of many other rocks and minerals. Who knows? I'm certainly no expert.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
As far as oil goes, there are many (non-US) scientists who believe that oil is not rotted vegatable matter, rather a natural process of compression of many other rocks and minerals.
Never heard of these so called "scientists".
Kilamar
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn20664.htm
But that doesn't really matter, oil can be wherever you choose it to be in Dark Sun. It was mostly regarded as a nuisance and devalued property where it was found before the industrial age.
Of course, if you make it a key to magical components, or someone in your campaign uses it as some kind of weapon, than it will have value. Otherwise, it won't.
Originally posted by NPC Dave
The largest oil reserve is not in the Middle East, it is in Canada.
That is not oil, that is oil sand.
"...it may offer a seemingly limitless supply of North American petroleum products"
And since the technologies needed do not work yet at a commercial level, these are not reserves but ressources.
Kilamar
Never heard of these so called "scientists".
Oil link
My earlier point was that it's not completely understood, which is true, so you can take your eye-rolling elsewhere.
As for oil on Athas: why not? I don't think it would be useful in the same way as it is for us, but it could be used for fires, weapons, and so on, if a significant source were found.
/me curious
Kilamar
My eye rolling was not about the lack of complete understanding of the oil creation process, but about the comment that it is formed out of minerals and rocks.
And it was very useful and informative, as rolling eyes always is. The scientists were russian and they used different methods for tracking down oil than US geologists. Their success made the US geologists pause because they were so successful. I don't have the article (SciAm) in front of me, obviously, but it was real, I assure you. It was also from 4-5 years ago, so I don't remember it with crystal clarity - I'll it could have been interactions with certain rocks and minerals.
Last time I checked, Dark Sun was a fantasy world, as well, so oil could be made by fornicating chipmunks, if you so desire. It's not worth my time to argue this further.
Anyways.
Penn - drawing's done and shipped off to Brax's
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
And it was very useful and informative, as rolling eyes always is. The scientists were russian and they used different methods for tracking down oil than US geologists. Their success made the US geologists pause because they were so successful. I don't have the article (SciAm) in front of me, obviously, but it was real, I assure you. It was also from 4-5 years ago, so I don't remember it with crystal clarity - I'll it could have been interactions with certain rocks and minerals.
Works for me, heaven forbid we accept new things, instead of just staying in a rut and vegetating
Last time I checked, Dark Sun was a fantasy world, as well, so oil could be made by fornicating chipmunks, if you so desire.
stay in a rut and vegetate.
Was that intentional?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Was that intentional?
Probably not, but it works none the less, hehe.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Petroleum in its base form, as a blackish liquid, is composed of long chains of nearly pure carbon, doped with some elements like sulfur. Petroleum, at least on Earth, is thus a process specific to life, since its life that segregates carbon. Most rocks have barely any carbon atoms in them, so its difficult if not impossible to make oil or coal without the help of life processes.
Actually, *mineral* coal is almost entirely composed of carbon and, when compressed at extremely high pressures, forms the beautiful carbon-only compound called "diamond".
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug25/articles7.htm
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99616.htm
http://www.me.washington.edu/~malte/engr341/class_notes/ch09.html
Originally posted by cosmikube
Actually, *mineral* coal is almost entirely composed of carbon and, when compressed at extremely high pressures, forms the beautiful carbon-only compound called "diamond".
Errr...your phrase is phrased so that you're saying its coal which is compressed to form diamonds, while what you mean to say is that its carbon.
Here's a summary of the diamond formation process, which can be as far down as 700 kms, way too far to require organically-derived deposits as part of its formation process. They actually come from peridotitic rocks. Mantle rock. Waayyy down.
http://www.ashton.ca/fundamentals/thegenesis/genesis.html
Originally posted by Pennarin
Most rocks have barely any carbon atoms in them, so its difficult if not impossible to make oil or coal without the help of life processes.
Diamonds yes, but coal or oil, no. A few exotic processes exist, which among other things account for deposits of petroleum in Archaean rocks and comets and asteroids.
See first link of three, two quotes above.
account for deposits of petroleum in Archaean rocks and comets and asteroids
Again I'm OT, but if I cared, I would never be able to post at all ;)
Its interesting to note (though the first link of three that Penn provides seems to fail to mention) that there are more than just hydrocarbon chains being found on asteroids; there are all sorts of molecular chains being found that we once though could only come from organic sources, and some of these deposits have been located in deep space. Of course, such findings have given rise to 1,000+ crank theories about the true origins of life, but it is food for thought none-the-less. Also of note, is that the non-organic theory expressed in the link has only minor acceptance when taken into accord with the micro-organism that were discovered that actually live within lava, which would back date life on earth quite a bit if life came not from the sea, but from the very cooling magma of a very young earth, which in turn nullifies the argument that oil can come from lifeless sources (based on the findings of oil deposits in igneous rock).
. . . . err, sorry, my bad.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Again I'm OT
What is OT ?
Its interesting to note (though the first link of three that Penn provides seems to fail to mention) that there are more than just hydrocarbon chains being found on asteroids; there are all sorts of molecular chains being found that we once though could only come from organic sources, and some of these deposits have been located in deep space.
Although I have no sources for those, I do know there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of organic compounds found in space and other planets (Titan being one of them) whose spectra(sp?) can be anylised from Earth. As you mention, the main theories about their origin is not from life processes.
Also of note, is that the non-organic theory expressed in the link has only minor acceptance when taken into accord with the micro-organism that were discovered that actually live within lava, which would back date life on earth quite a bit if life came not from the sea, but from the very cooling magma of a very young earth, which in turn nullifies the argument that oil can come from lifeless sources (based on the findings of oil deposits in igneous rock).
Err...I don't want to seem to be making the apology of that particular link's toroughness of exposition, but when I learned that stuff, the lava theory was never mentionned to me as part of the considered theories of the terrestrial origins of life. In fact, the only time I ever heard that was when you mentionned it and in an informationnal "nature & science" show about extremophiles bacteria.
I thought the concensus was that these bacteria had come from earlier bacteria, originating from one of the zones purported to have been the birthplace of life: clay deposits, and moist subterranean areas.
Ha, found it! Now I remember why clay deposits are a likely place:
The first polymers may have been formed on hot rocks or clay
1. after small organic molecules formed, the next step would have been polymerization – long chains of small organic molecules to form one long molecule
2. polymers are formed by dehydration synthesis – a process that links two monomers (small molecules) together in a process that results in formation of water – thus dehydration synth.
3. Normally, enzymes facilitate, but this can also be accomplished in lab settings where water is vaporized and the monomers are concentrated; some spontaneously bond
4. Clay particles have electrically charged sites for binding monomers, so this could have spontaneously occurred on clay surfaces.
Most of the steps that scientist can figure out to be necessary steps for the apparition of cellular life do not occur under water, in extremes of temperature or pH, and under high pressure.
:D
Wasn' t there a Psionic Academy entry in The Will and the Way, with a grove of olive trees in its courtyard.
I'd see olive trees as the most widespread fruit tree in the Tablelands, simply because people can cook with it and put it in pretty much any meal. Plus it grows in itally, which is not the rain forest type.
Oh, and OT means Off Topic (or SSFT, Severely Straying From Topic), which about 98% of my posts normally are.
I thought the concensus was that these bacteria had come from earlier bacteria, originating from one of the zones purported to have been the birthplace of life: clay deposits, and moist subterranean areas.
I recall more than a few theories about such back in the early 90's, since I've not heard much about those theories today, I would say its fairly safe to assume that someone was simply running against the more normal proposed consesus in an attempt to garner a little noteriety (stupid scientists who want to make a name for themselves rather than contribute to the community). I can't find anything complete on the web that would be worth linking, but when I get back home, I should be able to email you some of the journal references if your interested.
The first polymers may have been formed on hot rocks or clay
Cool. So Adam was made from clay after all... funny.
Yeah, OT means Of-Topic. There's a poster on this board somewhere has a link in his sig to a dictionary of netlingo. Can't recall who...
Originally posted by Kamelion
There's a poster on this board somewhere has a link in his sig to a dictionary of netlingo. Can't recall who...
I'll be damned, its in there!
The acronyms we've been using on this Board and others of late have been so over-specialized - DS or D&D specific - that I haven't even bothered to go look them up, assured I would not find any references.
Plus, some chat had discouraged me of late from understanding certain acronyms: I'd been making heavy use of netlingo to no avail, 'cause some letters were missing from the acronyms I was typing in the engine...
Well I'll take my own advice, again, and apply it each time from now on. :D
Originally posted by Pennarin
What is OT ?
Although I have no sources for those, I do know there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of organic compounds found in space and other planets (Titan being one of them) whose spectra(sp?) can be anylised from Earth. As you mention, the main theories about their origin is not from life processes.
Err...I don't want to seem to be making the apology of that particular link's toroughness of exposition, but when I learned that stuff, the lava theory was never mentionned to me as part of the considered theories of the terrestrial origins of life. In fact, the only time I ever heard that was when you mentionned it and in an informationnal "nature & science" show about extremophiles bacteria.
I thought the concensus was that these bacteria had come from earlier bacteria, originating from one of the zones purported to have been the birthplace of life: clay deposits, and moist subterranean areas.
Ha, found it! Now I remember why clay deposits are a likely place:
Most of the steps that scientist can figure out to be necessary steps for the apparition of cellular life do not occur under water, in extremes of temperature or pH, and under high pressure.
Not to be picky, but since i'm a microbiologist working with extremophile microorganisms (you DO find everything on these boards, don't you?), so far the upper temperature of life is found at 121ºC (Kashefi and Lovley 2003), an archaea (or archaeoacterium if you perfer) isolated from a hydrothermal vent. This organism and many other archaea isolated at extremely high temperatures are placed low in the tree of life using todays current phylogenetic analysis tools, suggesting a hyperthermophilic origin of life. I would still like the link to that clay/origin thing, though. However, the geologists here may know better but, wouldn't a relatively young earth be scarse in clay deposits?
Oh and my bad on the coal-diamond thing: tricks of the portuguese language (lápis de carvão?). the point remains however: you can find whole-carbon structures that are not organic in origin.
Now, how can I make this on-topic?
I bet the Lake of Golden Dreams is full of thriving little buggs! :D
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Don't quote me since I'm about 1,400 miles away from my books, but I'm rather sure it was Balic that had the groves of olive trees (very much in keeping with its Romanesque feel).
I actually also remember that, but the WC says nothing about cooking oil or olive trees. I think it must have been in WJ but i borrowed mine to a player... However, according to Dune Trader, it's Gulg and Nibenay that have a high supply of cooking oil. Olive trees grow all around the mediterranean sea - Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Morocco, etc. - and yes, they are associated with hot climates. I guess it wouldn't be so strange for one city or another to have groves of olive trees. What about cork trees?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I should be able to email you some of the journal references if your interested.
Sure, send away.
Originally posted by cosmikube
I would still like the link to that clay/origin thing
I don't have any. Its a far away memory of my earliest course. As for the link to the quote I gave on clay, just make a google search with one of the exact phrases from the quote. Its not much, I know, but its the only thing I could find on the net - in short time - that reminded me of that early course in geology.
There seems to be 2 conflicting indications of the origins of life: 1) real tough to make the first cell wall in an extreme environment; all the theories I seem to recall mention more gentler environments, 2) as you say, phylogenetic analysis reveals ancestry that we cannot dismiss off-hand.
1) & 2) may not actually be compatible. Meaning, we gotta study and research some more!
:D
Thinking about it, its like determining ancestry for all higher primates, alive and extinct. There's a huge debate around it: the two methods in use (I think one is physiological comparaison amongst and between living and fossil records and the other is phylogenetic analysis) don't give the same results. For one method, certain primates come before others, and the reverse is found for the other method.
but the WC says nothing about cooking oil or olive trees.
Its probably not in either (I do have a new copy of Beyond the Prism Pentad supplement that I got at a local book fleemarket for 2 bucks to replace my old coffee stained one and the city info from DS revised is copied verbatum from that book). Most likely you'll find more concrete information on the cities in VA (although I am thinking that I may be wrong here since Scott's website A Little About Balic doesn't mention anything about it).
so far the upper temperature of life is found at 121ºC
That's cool, I'm surely no biologist in any way (I much prefer studying bigger things like planets and stars). Thanks for correcting me on that though. I was under the assumption from some of what I had read that the organisms in question were living within the near surface magma itself (which is considerably higher that 250 degrees F) and not simply in the plume vents.
And now that I think about it, yeah, we've covered everything at one time or another from physics, micro molecular biology, thermodynamics, calculus and trigomometry, chemistry, higher psychology, in depth sociology, military tactics . . . damn. Between these boards, the old boards, and the mailing list, you could damn near get your B.A. just off some of the strange tangents we go on ;)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
And now that I think about it, yeah, we've covered everything at one time or another from physics, micro molecular biology, thermodynamics, calculus and trigomometry, chemistry, higher psychology, in depth sociology, military tactics . . . damn. Between these boards, the old boards, and the mailing list, you could damn near get your B.A. just off some of the strange tangents we go on ;)
Don't forget the foreign language teachings, heh.
Don't forget the foreign language teachings, heh.
lol, if only babblefish showed the original word, then the translated word I'd be a fluent French speaker by now
