I finally got DLCS (go me)! As in an upcoming campaign we will be playing on Ansalon in the Age of Mortals (in which case I must read War of Souls immediately) and the first thing I flipped to was the section on Wizards of High Sorcery.
I had intended to make my character a Silvanesti Wizard (to eventually take the White Robes, we start at 5th-level) but now that I see the PrC for WoHS, I'm less hot on that idea then I once was.
As far as I and my character are concerned: White Robe magic is boring. Ooh, abjuration and divination . . . the power, the excitement, the possibilities. Those two schools have their uses but probably excite him the least, and to embark down a path which forces him to specialize in one or the other (eventually at the expense of three other schools) seems silly.
This is intensely problematic. The character is a wizard. That is how I imagined and concieved him, he's from house Magus, it's what he was born to do, and the life he willingly chose to seek. But as the time to take his test comes he must choose between either becoming a Renegade to the WoHS, a dark elf, or a life pursuing magic he has little interest in.
Obviously the first is impossible, wizardry is everything to him, he can't choose the life of the Renegade. The second is also horrific, he must forsake his life, family, friends, and all he has ever known to pursue the magic he chooses. And the third choice is not an option at all. Thus, it appears I have made a dark elf character.
But wait, there's more - I concieved him as being a "Good" character. Alignment: Chaotic Good. A little self-interested and self-absorbed but with no wish to harm others and a genuine desire to do good. Given the alignment restrictions of the WoHS, however, he once again is faced with the white robe only. How shall this fadge?
He has to change his alignment to focus on the magic that he wishes to? The way I see the world of Krynn, the red robe actually offers more potential to do good than the white. The history of Ansalon is filled with instances of the forces of "light" becoming corrupted, too powerful, locked into rigidity and foolishness. Pursuing the path of balance may actually offer more chances to aid others than the path of righteousness.
Yet the PHB defines altruism as a good act. If he became neutral and took the red robes then went about helping people just because he likes to he'd be doing good deeds, and thus acting out of alignment.
The same goes for the black robes. The magic practiced by the followers of Nuitari is powerful and fascinating, an alluring option to my character. Yet the black robes are wizards who supposedly dedicate themselves to evil. My wizard is selfish and power-hungry but has no desire to harm others or resurrect Takhisis, he just likes enchantment spells (enchantment would be his number choice of specialization). And it is the black robe which offers them to him.
A good red robe? A good black robe? It technically can't be according to the rules presented in DLCS, but this confuses me. The WoHS primarilly concern themselves with magic, it says that at every opportunity within their descriptions. You won't find the white robes battling the black robes if the future of magic is at stake. So why is it that a new WoHS must select his robe based upon alignment rather than the magic he wishes to pursue?
So what robe should he choose? What alignment is he really? What alignment must he choose?
I suppose this is ultimately something to discuss with my DM, but I thought it'd be nice to see what you folks all thought on the matter.
Thanks.
Another thing though is that yes, it is a bit restrictive, but that is for the (wonderful) flavor of the campaign. If you were an elf growing up on Krynn with plans for wizardry, you would probably understand as "common knowledge" that the orders focus on different magic. If you're a good-aligned generalist, you may not be restricted from Enchantments and Necromancies, but you'd probably have acknowledged somewhere along the line that Nuitari is the inspiration for those magics, or at least the best at using them. Still, your dedication to magic above and beyond all would probably overrule any "trifling" concerns over the universal morality of charm person...it's magic, it's a gift from the moon gods, all the orders are brothers & sisters in the magic, la la la.
Good gaming! =)
So what does any of this mean for your character?
I think the generalist option mentioned above is the best way to go. While each order of magic has certain schools they specialize in, not every wizard has to be a specialist. Wizards seek to unlock the secrets of magic, and I would think many would embark on learning about all of magic, not just a few select schools.
The rules in the DLCS are set up to simulate the prior editions' rules on wizard schools, but this is by no means the only option.
I've worked on converting some characters that I've used as PCs or NPCs in games I used to play in to the 3rd edition rules. I've found that most don't fit the role of a specialist wizard, although some do. So I've used both the generalist and specialist options, depending on the character.
Go with the option that fits your character concept the best, and play what you want to play.
Once you get to silly high levels though, you always can go for a different robe - if you've somehow managed to earn great gratitude from the elves (which are fragmented any way - so what if they kick you out; they can't keep you from your homeland. The minotaurs might, though). Look at Vedvedsica - a grey cleric, but still tolerated in elven society because he was so powerful.
Finally, if you are an elf, raised to do elf magics, in a very elfly way, with elf bells attached, then you would find the idea of abjuration or divination more appealing because of it. You could start off that way - you'd have to talk with your DM about it - but you could start of abjurer/diviner, but then 'discover' the other magics that your elf tutors never told you about, or told you were evil, and switch specialities, because these new magics are far more powerful and interesting.
And blue mages are so much cooler than anything else DL has to offer. Of course, they're intended for a far more adult gamer...
But more and more I'm thinking I'd like to have him take the red robes, or even the black. I'm enjoying this adversity - it builds character and has already made Valthalionthalas (how's that for an elven name) far more interesting than "Silvanesti White Robe" he now has intense selfishness, magical obsession, and arcane curiosity extending towards a fascination with "dark magic" (at least by Silvanesti standards) to key him up a bit.
I'm easy on the dark elf thing. As was noted the elves are a broken people - scattered, divided, leaderless, there's no strength left in elves (all the more reason for my character to seek strength outside of elven tradition, the way of the white robe didn't help his people, perhaps by embracing another path he can reforge his people and let them once more flourish and dominate the world of Krynn). It's the alignment thing that's hanging me up, now.
My DM in general allows good-aligned characters only ("heroic campaign"), but even after taking the black robes Raistlin still did many things which could be classified as "heroic" and, come to think of it, he was fairly altruistic towards Bupu without violating his choice of the red or black robes.
Reading over the section on High Sorcery again it says that when the time for the test comes, an applicant chooses their robe, it isn't arbitrarilly assigned to them, so surely alignment isn't the greatest factor ("a wizard's first loyalty is to magic") is choosing the red robe an inherently neutral act that changes the characters alignment? Is choosing black inherently evil?
I never read very many of the Dragonlance novles, just the Chronicles and the Legends series, but Dalamar seems to be a figure I could use for inspiration. Anyone know where I could find more information on him? Why did he choose the black robes?
Finally, for the board's amusement, here's the response one of my friends had to this idea:
He did it all for the magic (come on)
The magic (come on)
So you can take that tragic
And stick it up you a--
Stick it up your a--
Ah, Limp Bizkit humor . . .
You don't directly choose to be a White Robe, being a Good character during your test chooses the robes for you.
If you really want to play a black robe, start out as a White Robe (much as Raist did) then during your test, when you're confronted by something you don't understand... freak out and kill the crap out of it for no reason other than the fact that it was there.
That should assure your placement amongst the black robes.
It looks like you're thinking about it backwards. You get the Black Robes because you're EVIL not because you like Enchantment spells. You can be a generalist wizard with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Enchantment.
-TRRW
IMO, it's part of the flavor of the world. Im pretty sure that a wizard of high sorcery takes one level regardless. Taking the test and getting the moon magic is part of that. Past that, go with wizard. However, specializing in Abjuration or Divination is part of the white robes, as they have less *deadly* spells then the others, as well as questionably evil spells.
The spells are just a tool, but its really how you use them. Some are an easier road than the others. If you want, go with Red Robes or Black Robes, but don't try to claim Good. That just ruins the flavor of the campaign. Now a Black Robe that eventually becomes good....possible. Check the rules on switching robes for that.
Renegades have the kind of freedom you're talking about, the freedom to set their own course. It's not often said enough that the wizards of the Towers are, in some ways, the exemplars of Dragonlance's tripartite alignment focus - they should behave exactly as their Order dictates, or they wouldn't be in that Order to begin with. If they act differently, or start leaning towards another alignment, then their Order will change.
It doesn't have anything to do with the spells that the wizard wishes to cast, apart from the assumptions made by those choices (i.e. necromancy is almost universally seen as evil in the setting). Your best bet in a case where you'd like to pursue certain schools of magic without playing a character of a nonpreferred alignment is to go with the generalist option and choose Order Secrets that aren't focused on specific schools, such as Magic of Radiance, et al.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Ithilorien
That is how I imagined and concieved him, he's from house Magus, it's what he was born to do, and the life he willingly chose to seek.
Well, everyone else has definately taken care of the brunt of your questions, so I won't comment it other than to say, I think the Generalist Wizard is the way to go anyway.
However, I wanted to comment on this. Just FYI...there is no House Magus. In Silvanesti...they call the clan of wizards "House Mystic." It is misrepresented in the DLCS.
Originally posted by Brimstone
However, I wanted to comment on this. Just FYI...there is no House Magus. In Silvanesti...they call the clan of wizards "House Mystic." It is misrepresented in the DLCS.
I'm not clear on the reason why that's the case, but I'm assuming that would be a minor retcon to avoid confusion with the mystic character class and mysticism in general. House Magus is just as appropriate.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm not clear on the reason why that's the case, but I'm assuming that would be a minor retcon to avoid confusion with the mystic character class and mysticism in general. House Magus is just as appropriate.
I don't know...but in every source and novel prior to this, it is House Mystic.
My thinking was that the magic users were around before wizards and "mages." All the ancient Silvanesti really knew about this power was that it was some sort of "mystical" energy. So, the elves that wielded this power formed House Mystic.
Now it's just the name of that House...and has been for well over 4,000 years. And we all know how much Silvanesti are sticklers for tradition. :D
It looks like my DM will be allowing generalist WoHS, so I guess a white robe it is (however unfashionable).
Originally posted by Curious about Dark Sun
Blue Robe?
For those who use their magic once every blue moon.
*rim shot*
It's another joke.
You know, we could write a book on this, Dr. Seuss style....
One mage
Two Mage
Red Mage
Blue Mage
:D
Oy, it's been a long day. The mighty Dragonhelm has lost it indeed!
Will there be information for the gray robes in the ToHS?
And no, I don't mean Thorn knights. I'm talking about the chosen of the gods of magic, as described by Knaak in the Land of the Minotaurs. They were given access to the power of all three moons with the charge that they do their upmost to preserve balance in the world. Sort of the enforcers of the three moons. It would be interesting to play someone who believes that every (major) action requires a contrary action.
The party paladin: "We must destroy that ogre horde which threatens this village of Paladine worshipers!"
The grey mage: "Oh all right, but next time I'll be fighting on the side of an evil overlord, just so you know."
;)
Blue Robe?
Also can be 'Blue' meaning adult category. There are 'different' uses to some spells in the PHB. Mage hand, Grease, Mount, Unseen Servant, Silent Image, Animate Rope, Web, Bear's Endurance, Clairvoyance, Hold Person, Major Image, Haste... the list goes on.
Diviners can watch anything, illusionists can watch anything they can think of, conjurers can call anything to do their bidding, transmuters can be anything, enchanters can straight *ahem* anything, abjurers at least do it safely, evokers are generally seen as immature (the best they can really do is cast a Gust of Wind up someone's skirt), necromancers... we'll leave them out of this.
Originally posted by Curious about Dark Sun
Blue Robe?
As Dragonhelm caught on, it was an attempt at Seussical humor.
As for the other description of blue mage . . .
Originally posted by Ithilorien
My DM in general allows good-aligned characters only ("heroic campaign"), but even after taking the black robes Raistlin still did many things which could be classified as "heroic" and, come to think of it, he was fairly altruistic towards Bupu without violating his choice of the red or black robes.
Nope, Raistlin was still a Red Robe when he met Bupu in Xak Tsaroth. He turned to Black much later (though even then I suspect he still thought fondly of her).
Besides, the DL novels are full of Red Robes doing either Good or Evil acts, and even of some Black Robes acting in a non-Evil way (the Defenders of Magic trilogy comes to mind here..)
Originally posted by pddisc
Also can be 'Blue' meaning adult category.
Originally posted by Brimstone
I'm not a huge fan of all of these alternate smileys, but that one's the funniest thing I've seen in ages.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
My thinking was that the magic users were around before wizards and "mages." All the ancient Silvanesti really knew about this power was that it was some sort of "mystical" energy. So, the elves that wielded this power formed House Mystic.
Perhaps, but frankly it is just too confusing. At the surface, without going into all the backstory and retcons that made mysticism a possibility in the first place, on the surface you would expect House Mystics to have Mystics in it. With the name House Magus, a reader who casually reads an adventure like "Key of Destiny" or "Specter of Sorrows" and sees the line "a member of House Magus" would expect to see exactly what he does... namely a wizard.
Now it's just the name of that House...and has been for well over 4,000 years. And we all know how much Silvanesti are sticklers for tradition. :D
Well, I imagine the caste system isn't working out too well now. Without the social stability of their own homeland and a social hiearchy, the caste system simply can't survive.
Frankly, with all the human boys sniffing at the door, I bet a lot of Silvanesti fathers are just happy if marries another elf. ;)
Edit: Snipped out example of Indian immigrants, which is something I don't really have the authority to speak about.
Originally posted by ferratus
With the name House Magus, a reader who casually reads an adventure like "Key of Destiny" or "Specter of Sorrows" and sees the line "a member of House Magus" would expect to see exactly what he does... namely a wizard.
Well...personally, changing it from House Mystic (which has so much more flavor to it than Magus) just because it might be confusing to someone not paying attention just isn't a good enough reason for me.
Even without a centrallized kingdom the elves doubtless still have communities and bands. To be a dark elf is to be shunned by elves everywhere - still a pretty hefty punishment, nations or not.
Since there is a distinction between dark elf and evil elf, I don't think that many of the elves would be accepting of the evil ones (although equally, there would be more evil ones around, freed by their circumstances into doing more of what they feel like, and having nothing to lose by doing so).
However, this is off topic, and an almost identical point to talk about as one of the other ones Amaron has made ina different thread. I'll now talk more about robed users of magic.
Um...
Why does being called 'House Mystic' have more flavour than being called 'House Magus'? To me, 'mystic' and 'magus' are equally evocative of some kind of magic, as words on their own. In terms of DL, 'Mystic' now brings up images of, surprisingly, mystics. Although I'm certain the elves would never change the names of their houses, what I think Cam is advocating is that the elves had always called their wizards members of House Magus, and it saves confusion. In game, having this little bit of confusion serves little purpose, and out of game... if you're going to research that much into the elves that you go through all the old source material, you'll either put two and two together, and sort it out yourself, or be a member of these boards, and see people talk about the retrospective name-change.
Originally posted by pddisc
Why does being called 'House Mystic' have more flavour than being called 'House Magus'? To me, 'mystic' and 'magus' are equally evocative of some kind of magic, as words on their own. In terms of DL, 'Mystic' now brings up images of, surprisingly, mystics.
Which is why I'm sure the name was changed. Likewise, this is why the sorcerer school of enchantment was changed to enhancement - both to signify what it is and to not be confusing. Granted, this change was a minor one, so no big deal.
However, I have to agree with Brim's point on the House Mystic name, specifically being continuity.
What I would rather see is elven names for these houses, and an explanation that House Mystic is the common tongue translation, which can also be explained as not being a good one. Ergo, with the introduction of mystics, the translation is changed. Yet the elven name remains the same.
*shrugs*
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
What I would rather see is elven names for these houses, and an explanation that House Mystic is the common tongue translation, which can also be explained as not being a good one. Ergo, with the introduction of mystics, the translation is changed. Yet the elven name remains the same.
That's a very good idea!
I'll see if I can come up with some...
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'll see if I can come up with some...
Here's some examples, with root words shamelessly stolen from Tolkien's Quenya language:
House Cleric - Cyerquenas
House Mason- Ondothas
House Metalline- Tanothas
House Mystic- Curuthas
House Noble- Arquenas
House Protector- Varathas
House Servitor- Nurothas
House Woodshaper- Tavarthas
Krynn's elves have names that are partly made up and partly derived from Latin and Greek with a kind of softened Welsh shift, but a lot of those translations would look a lot like their original words. So, I went with JRRT.
Cheers,
Cam