Now, the spiel about the Heart of Darkness being used to separate chaos and law from the Yugoloths, and then infecting the larvae (or the tanar'ri equivalent) on Hell and the Abyss respectively to become the Baatezu (who usurped the Ancient Baatorians) and the Tanar'ri, that all comes from a canon Planescape source (Faces of Evil, IIRC).
I happen to like both ideas, and this is my possible futile attempt to reconcile them. Perhaps, before the planes were given their current configuration, they still existed, albeit not all neat and orderly like. We have the ancient baatorians in Hell, the yugoloths and other exemplars of the various alignments. Then, poof, Heart of Darkness, etc.
A few millenia pass, and suddenly, Asmodeus and Jazirian do their little dance, and the planes get pulled into their current configuration, with the rule of threes, the rules of rings, etc. They fall to their current locations. Now, we have Asmodeus, a greater power in his own right (like Primus, for example) and Jazirian, who becomes the patron of her children (the coutle). Their existence pulled the multiverse into its shape, but isn't actually keeping it that way. The Armageddon clause in the Guide to Hell is just hype.
As an alternative, perhaps the infusion of law into the larvae of hell created the Ancient Baatorians, and Asmodeus' blood creating the usurping Baatezu.
This is just a try, tell me what you think.
Originally posted by Tebryn14
Now, the spiel about the Heart of Darkness being used to separate chaos and law from the Yugoloths, and then infecting the larvae (or the tanar'ri equivalent) on Hell and the Abyss respectively to become the Baatezu (who usurped the Ancient Baatorians) and the Tanar'ri, that all comes from a canon Planescape source (Faces of Evil, IIRC).
It's just presented as a myth there. The evidence for it comes from Hellbound: the Blood War.
The evidence is that the yugoloths were the ones who originally supplied the tanar'ri and baatezu with their teleportation powers.
We could conclude from that evidence that the 'loths were responsible for those races' creation, or that they were at least responsible for certain aspects of their early development. The circumstances remain unknown.
Perhaps, before the planes were given their current configuration, they still existed, albeit not all neat and orderly like.
It's probable the multiverse was still roughly balanced between law and chaos. Only, there may well have been a different kind of order at one time.
A myth included in The Illithiad mentions that the illithid empire was at its peak while the outer planes were "still in flux." For what it's worth.
A few millenia pass, and suddenly, Asmodeus and Jazirian do their little dance, and the planes get pulled into their current configuration, with the rule of threes, the rules of rings, etc.
I imagine that this happened slowly, over the course of eons. And, what's more, it's still going on today.
Note the third grand theme of the planes beyond the Rule of Threes and the Unity of Rings - the Center of All, which says that no one point is more important than any other. This is important, because it implies that the planes have more than one origin. Perhaps the Twin Serpents did create the current multiversal order. The Center of All axiom means that they weren't the only ones.
It also means that there are no matter how powerful any entity is, there are always an infinite amount of entities who are more powerful. Asmodeus would do well to remember that.
Now, we have Asmodeus, a greater power in his own right (like Primus, for example) and Jazirian
If Jazirian and Ahriman were, together, the primal manifestation of Law, then that means they were equal to Primus is today, when counted as a pair. Apart, they are each exactly half as potent as Primus.
This doesn't mean they aren't capable of transforming the planes individually. Belief can do some powerful things.
The Armageddon clause in the Guide to Hell is just hype.
I like the Armageddon Clause. It dovetails so nicely with the Bringing mentioned in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium and Planes of Law. It requires countless millions of larvae, gathered from the souls of those who doubt everything (Athar don't qualify; as members of a faction their belief in their creed is very strong). It's not the only thing the Bringing could be, but it's a worthy option.
As an alternative, perhaps the infusion of law into the larvae of hell created the Ancient Baatorians
This, to me, is almost certain. That larvae in Baator naturally form into Ancient Baatorians is known for a fact. It's also known that larvae cannot form directly into baatezu; baatezu can only be created from lemures, who are only created via a special ritual. It's possible that the yugoloths initiated this process, but this would be seperate from the Heart of Darkness.
I never liked the idea that pit fiends could form from Asmodeus' blood. Pit fiends are carefully engineered from lower-caste baatezu. They are the result of millennia of planning from the Ministry of Research and they take 1001 days to fully refine. I don't think there were anything like pit fiends at the beginning of baatezu history.
I would accept that lemures, or some nonhumanoid (probably serpentine) precursor of lemures, could form from Asmodeus' blood. They might even grow very powerful. But they wouldn't be anything like modern baatezu.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
It's probable the multiverse was still roughly balanced between law and chaos. Only, there may well have been a different kind of order at one time.
A myth included in The Illithiad mentions that the illithid empire was at its peak while the outer planes were "still in flux." For what it's worth.
I imagine that this happened slowly, over the course of eons. And, what's more, it's still going on today.
Note the third grand theme of the planes beyond the Rule of Threes and the Unity of Rings - the Center of All, which says that no one point is more important than any other. This is important, because it implies that the planes have more than one origin. Perhaps the Twin Serpents did create the current multiversal order. The Center of All axiom means that they weren't the only ones.
This doesn't mean they aren't capable of transforming the planes individually. Belief can do some powerful things.
So perhaps, the planes all existed under a different kind of order, but Jazirian and Asmodeus, using the power of belief pulled it into its current configuration, and it has yet to change much from the way they arranged it.
If Jazirian and Ahriman were, together, the primal manifestation of Law, then that means they were equal to Primus is today, when counted as a pair. Apart, they are each exactly half as potent as Primus.
I don't know that I would assert them as THE primal manifestation of law, just two beings that decided that they wanted things changed.
I like the Armageddon Clause. It dovetails so nicely with the Bringing mentioned in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium and Planes of Law. It requires countless millions of larvae, gathered from the souls of those who doubt everything (Athar don't qualify; as members of a faction their belief in their creed is very strong). It's not the only thing the Bringing could be, but it's a worthy option.
I have never heard of the Bringing. Anything you can tell me? But suppose he were to succeed in causing Armageddon. Would that really have any effect other than the demolishment of current planar pathways, and the elimination of the Rules of Three, Rings, etc.? I don't know that I'd imagine it as being much more terrible than that. Maybe some consequences to planewalkers, gods, etc., but certainly not the extinction of life hinted at in the Guide to Hell.
This, to me, is almost certain. That larvae in Baator naturally form into Ancient Baatorians is known for a fact. It's also known that larvae cannot form directly into baatezu; baatezu can only be created from lemures, who are only created via a special ritual. It's possible that the yugoloths initiated this process, but this would be seperate from the Heart of Darkness.
I never liked the idea that pit fiends could form from Asmodeus' blood. Pit fiends are carefully engineered from lower-caste baatezu. They are the result of millennia of planning from the Ministry of Research and they take 1001 days to fully refine. I don't think there were anything like pit fiends at the beginning of baatezu history.
I would accept that lemures, or some nonhumanoid (probably serpentine) precursor of lemures, could form from Asmodeus' blood. They might even grow very powerful. But they wouldn't be anything like modern baatezu.
I agree with all of that (particularly Asmodeus being the progenitor of LEMURES, and only indirectly Pit Fiends, etc.)
The Bringing is from loose sheets of MC8. It's a mega-project by the Dark Eight to completely destroy the tanar'ri by accumulating lots and lots of larvae and then use them as fuel to power up some doomsday spell or device.
It takes some creative reinterpretation of the tales from GtH, but you can presume that Asmo and Jazirian might be the chosen agents of LG and LE, similar to how the Baernoloths are the chosen harbingers of abstract NE. The conflict between Ahriman and Jazirian saw Jazirian go into hiding and Ahriman go catatonic and wounded, slumbering in the depths of Nessus.
The conflict between both of these beings allowed the Baern the time to create the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. The Baatezu were their tools to invade Baator and remove if possible the native LE exemplars, replacing them with those of their own creation to use in later events. Around the time of the Baatezu invasion, or shortly before it, Ahriman falls and the Baatezu conquer Baator. In his slumbering form, Ahriman's blood begins to create his own versions of the Baatezu without the inherant manipulations laying latent within them like those created by the Yugoloths.
Ahriman awakens and presents himself as Asmodeus. He may or may not be consciously aware of the actions of the Baern at this point. By now the Ancient Baatorians (possibly his own original creations) are nearly vanished, replaced during his sleep with the invading Yugoloths created Baatezu, and the Baatezu spawn of his own blood that appeared in mirror form to the new lords of hell.
You might use this, or you might now. Personally I only have Asmo existing as an avatar of a true form deep within Nessus, itself the semi-sentient manifestation of Nessus, or perhaps a mix of this essence fused with one of the original Yugoloth created Baatezu. Alternately, Asmodeus may be one of the last remaining mature Ancient Baatorians.
Use what you wish. I'm biased towards the more in depth legends of the Yugoloths myself, rather than a few ill conceived pages in GtH that ripped off Zoarastrianism.
Personally I only have Asmo existing as an avatar of a true form deep within Nessus, itself the semi-sentient manifestation of Nessus, or perhaps a mix of this essence fused with one of the original Yugoloth created Baatezu. Alternately, Asmodeus may be one of the last remaining mature Ancient Baatorians.
I like your idea, that Asmodeus is a manifestation of Nessus or that he is the ultimate aboriginal Baatorian.
So what do you think it says about ol' Azzy that either as a sentient manifestation of the plane, or as a Baatorian that he rules a plane of transplants like the Baatezu?
Do you think he favors the Baatezu over the Baatorians? He would have to have been either complicit in allowing them to take over or at least resigned to it saying to himself "I can work with this..."
I just think of it as a very intriguing state of affairs that the original exemplars of LE could be darwinistically usurped by another species.
But then maybe the ancient Baatorians had planned for it all along. Deciding to lay low or step aside for a time. Maybe with the idea that the devils would wipe out the Tanar'ri in the bloodwar at which time the Baatorians would come back, led by Azzy and sweep away or enslave the Baatezu.
Or maybe Azzy is just that mercenary, maybe he had scorn and disdain for his race and thought the Baatezu would make better exemplars than the Baatorians and so he just let the devils come in and take over.
Or maybe he was just asleep when it happened like you suggested. He woke up and found out the Baatorians were all gone and the Baatezu had moved in and he said "Huh? Well that's interesting, I am going back to sleep for a bit, wake me in a couple millenia."
Only Azzy knows for sure and he aint tellin'!
He prefered it to an immortal life of endless competition against every other mature baatorians (of which he is the last... or so he thinks...)
My only problem is that it doesn't seem to adhere to the principles of lawful evil which go towards maintaining order, rewarding loyalty, preserving the status quo, and promoting oneself to the top through competition within the established rules of the regime. Fomenting revolt and exterminating the entire plane seem contrary to the ideals of Law and if Azzy is the ultimate expression of LE, then it doesn't quite sound like something he would do.
But then again, maybe he is adhering to nature's one true law which is survival of the fittest!
You're right about increasing your own personal power through using the rules of the regime. That's probably what he did. Went to the Baatezu and said, "If you leave my lands alone, I won't interfer with your conquest."
I doubt that a lawful evil race would have rules that require individual fifes to do more than contribute a predesignated number of troops to a concerted war effort. Azzy probably found a loophole in whatever document set forth whatever rule they had regarding this, and he sent in X number of nupperibos instead of the semi-mature baatorians his race was expecting.
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Do you think he favors the Baatezu over the Baatorians? He would have to have been either complicit in allowing them to take over or at least resigned to it saying to himself "I can work with this..."
More likely, he's just biding his time until he can betray them and then stage a coup while they're weak to wipe them all out and return the plane to its rightful owners.
Incidentally, although I like the idea that Asmodeus is more powerful than anyone suspects, and that he has an ancient adversary, I *don't* like the idea that they're responsible for the current shape of the planes. Mainly this is because the forces aren't even in the picture, and also because it doesn't account for Primus.
My own pet theory is that there are nine primal entities representing the different alignments, each of whom has at least as much power as a greater god, but does not have worshipers or clerics. So far I've identified five: Asmodeus, Jazirian*, Primus, the Lady of Pain, and the Spawning Stone (which is actually a sentient being, though not even the slaadi realize it). I'm open to suggestions on who the other five might be.
(*Sharp readers will observe that Jazirian, unlike the others, has worshipers. Does this mean that maybe she's not really the manifestation of Lawful Good? If not, who is?)
Wyvern
Originally posted by Wyvern76
(*Sharp readers will observe that Jazirian, unlike the others, has worshipers. Does this mean that maybe she's not really the manifestation of Lawful Good? If not, who is?)
It doesn't matter. AFAIK, Jazirian neither gain power from her worshippers' beliefs nor grant spells.
I like the idea that Asmodeus was the progenitor of the Baatezu only because they had become the dominant species, even though they were not true exemplars. Perhaps Asmodeus is the exemplar of LE. However, what evidence is there for the Spawning Stone as being sentient, or a Greater Power for that matter?
Anyway, I suppose that if Asmodeus, Jazirian, (Lady of Pain?) were the exemplars of LE, LG, and N, respectively, than they would be the equivalent of DvR 20 gods. Or perhaps even higher? Maybe they are overpowers? Thoughts?
Originally posted by Seraph of Babel
It doesn't matter. AFAIK, Jazirian neither gain power from her worshippers' beliefs nor grant spells.
Seraph of Babel is right, at least in regards to Jazirian's spell-granting. It's not specified where he/she gets his/her power from, but Jazirian has no priests or shamans.
Jazirian sounds like the primal for LG, being a former third of the circle.
Asmodeus however is just an avatar of the being far beneath Nessus. Once it ruled Baator entirely through it's ancient Baatorian god slaves. Until the breaking of the circle and Ahrimans/asmodeuses subsequent loss to the Baernaloth. Why the Bearn still allow the primal of LE control over their creations (the baatezu) in another guise is utter dark. Maybe they don't realize it's an avatar of their old foe, or perhaps they know very well and figure the great old lord into their plans of abstract evil. Or perhaps the evil of of law won over abstract darkness long ago.
As for chaotic evil, I'd be more inclined to site the Dread Demogorgon as it's primal, then Orcus. Or at least Chaotic evils avatar in much the same way Asmodeus is an avatar of whatever entitiy sleeps in serpents coil.
Neutral Good is predated wholely and completely by The Void. It is both unfallable and nonexistant, you are part of it whether or not you choose to be. But Oblivion is still confronting it's old foes through it's chosen and hidden agents.
Chaotic Good is predated by the Elder Titans who long ago fell for their transgressions against existance. For the mighty Nephilim too tall for thier vision, and so they were hung within the cages of their pride. Their necks slit open in silent cry over crimes to vile for even immortals to speak.
The priminials are the first gaurdinial, pure benevolence for the planes whose purpose negated their mission. Lament all mortal planes, for they are nearl gone from the wheel. In their place are the aasimon, worked into the nature of good as idea beget belief, beget faith, beget power, beget influence of power.
This change of dominance to the mortal races of primes is the result of the alignment wars, forming the wheel into it's current state. And as free will gave chance for good and growth, the Void rejoiced, for it's will upon the planes was made manifest.
But learn you well walker of ideals and essence, form and energy. The Elder evils will usurp creation, the Blood War is the escape from choice, destruction of free will. The progeny of the Bearnaloth instigate great war between evil and evil, in it's wake the free path is warped and clawed by fiendish maws. The perfection of manifest destiny outlined by the unstopable but unreal void is now perched upon chance. It is up to us to decide the end game.
Pain or progression is left our only chance or choice.
It's not specified where he/she gets his/her power from, but Jazirian has no priests or shamans.
I thought Jazirian was a Greater God of Couatls with the portfolio of learning, peace, community & parenthood. Can she not grant spells to her couatl clerics?
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I thought Jazirian was a Greater God of Couatls with the portfolio of learning, peace, community & parenthood. Can she not grant spells to her couatl clerics?
I would assume that her coatls all gain any clerical spells from her. Stands to reason.
Personally I don't give her the time of day in my own campaigns, she exists, but she's no more important than any other deity since she's just one of them, no more and no less. *shrugs*
Monster Mythology, p.89:
Jazirian has no priests or shamans, having granted couatl great magical powers and wisdom within their own natures.
The spellcasting power of couatls are innate. They cast spells as sorcerers (in v3.5), even the cleric spells are cast as arcane magic.
Furthermore, since this thread seems to take GtH position on Asmodeus...
Guide to Hell, p.48:
However, the Twin Serpents predate the rule of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship. They have no priests and can grant no spells.
Originally posted by Wyvern76
My own pet theory is that there are nine primal entities representing the different alignments, each of whom has at least as much power as a greater god, but does not have worshipers or clerics. So far I've identified five: Asmodeus, Jazirian*, Primus, the Lady of Pain, and the Spawning Stone (which is actually a sentient being, though not even the slaadi realize it). I'm open to suggestions on who the other five might be.
I think with regards to primal entities, it need to be aligned to alignments. Also, IIRC, the Spawning Stone is used by the lords to control the breeding of the slaads, so that there won't be a random mutation that overpowers the current slaad lords. It's more like an instrument of control over the otherwise chaotic slaads.
Ok, some potential candidates... None are officially over-deities except for Ao and High God.
- Primus, LN
- Asmodeus, LE
- Jazirian, LG
- Abyss, CE (some layers are said to be "alive", maybe the whole plane is...)
- Progenitor of the baernoloths, NE?
- (Ex-)Keeper of the True Words in Pelion, NG?
- Lady of Pain, TN
- Ao, TN
- Io, TN
- High God (of Krynn), TN
Originally posted by Seraph of Babel
[*]Ao, TN
[*]High God (of Krynn), TN
I don't think that these are that good candidates. Ao does almost nothing outside of Torilspace, and I would assume the same of the High God of Krynn.
As a late-game plot thread, I was thinking of having the characters somehow learn about these alignment forces. My idea for the Neutral Evil primal force was actually the Powers of Ravenloft...capturing souls and feeding off of their pain for their own personal benefit...which of course leads to interesting campaign threads. :D
Originally posted by Sildatorak
I don't think that these are that good candidates. Ao does almost nothing outside of Torilspace, and I would assume the same of the High God of Krynn.
True, but activity, or the lack of it, needs not (dis-)qualify anyone from being a primal being.
I'd personally exclude Overpowers from a list of 'primal beings'. Single world overdeities like Ao, and single pantheon overpowers such as (in my opinion) Io wouldn't qualify for the status of beings such as The Serpent (that is, if it was something more than Vecna's madness), potentially The Lady of Pain (anyone's best guess on Her... I certainly won't be found messing with Her), etc.
Primus would fit this mold, except he falls out since he's more the combined essence of an exemplar race manifest as a single being. He's special, but I personally wouldn't include him as a primal being. After all, Primus has been killed before and when that happens there's a new Primus created with no loss to the energy pool of Regulus. However... he loses the memories and knowledge of his prior incarnation.
What I'd include as this level of primal being are mentioned in the legends of the Baernoloths in which they make explicit reference to having been sent into the Lower Planes by abstract evil. Evil was described as some vague persona or thing that created them, and it also spoke in the same way as good, chaos, law and neutrality/balance as similar abstract beings.
If the Baern are to be believed (in this instance I'd say yes) then the outer planes were fashioned by incarnate alignments that sprung up out of the first beliefs/emotions etc of the prime. The progenitor fiends and other earliest exemplars would have been the first true beings created out of those primal alignments, the harbingers to shape the outer planes newly created by the incarnate alignments themselves. Sigil is not mentioned in these legends, but myself I'd not be surprised to find Sigil as pre-existant of these events, or coming into being from 'elsewhere' and not a part of the conflict of the abstracts.
So, two of these Primals, Jazirian and Asmodeus (or whatever their old names were) decide that they need to impart some order on the multiverse. They pull it into it's current manifestation and, adjusting to the change, the Evil Primal sends (or creates) the Baernaloths, and they create the Yugoloths. The Planes spawn their own Exemplars, or perhaps the Primals create them (which would mean Asmodeus created the Ancient Baatorians).
Now the Heart of Darkness incident happens, and the AB (ancient baatorians) are replaced by the baatezu, and Asmodeus, adjusting, begins bleeding his own versions, free from the manipulations of the 'Loths.
Originally posted by Tebryn14
However, what evidence is there for the Spawning Stone as being sentient, or a Greater Power for that matter?
None, I just couldn't think of a better candidate for the CN primal
(btw, nice term, Kakabel). However, the Seraph has a point about it maybe not being a good representative for true Chaos. I don't think Ao or the High God are good candidates for TN because:
a) as Sildatorak pointed out, they're tied to specific worlds,
b) they're explicitly identified as overpowers, whereas I'm looking for entities whose true nature and powers are unknown (or at least uncertain),
c) who needs them when we've got the Lady of Pain? :D
As far as the identity of the LG primal goes, is there some kind of supreme ruler of the archons?
Wyvern
Originally posted by Wyvern76
c) who needs them when we've got the Lady of Pain? :D
As far as the identity of the LG primal goes, is there some kind of supreme ruler of the archons?
Yes, but do we -know- that Her alignment is TN? It's always been assumed that it is (and it's an opinion that I share) but we don't know. And are we so sure that we want to tie her down to being a natural part of the multiverse as we know it? I find the idea that She came from 'outside' or 'elsewhere' a fairly seductive idea. Not that I'd ever want to put down in canon any definition of Her, but it's points that I've mused on before.
As far as LG... all of the Archons are just ascended mortal petitioners. Primal beings and progenitor exemplars I think all would exist without being formed (at least directly) from mortal souls, but rather be birthed from the raw essence of their plane, itself formed of the soulstuff and belief of mortals. Ie. Baernoloths (and to an extent the 'loths in general), the Ancient Baatorians, Modrons?, the pre-spawning stone slaadi?, the beings who built the ruins in Pelion, etc.
However, that said, there's the 'sure we could show you, but then we'd have to incinerate you' in the 7th layer of Mount Celestia. Anything that tries to go to whatever is there is either incinerated or enters and never comes back (except for Zaphkiel who is more a servant or Herald of the 7th Heaven than a ruler by any means. And yes, I suddenly have an image of Zaphkiel as some Silver Surfer-esque herald of the unstoppable Celestia, devourer of chaos and evil. Hehehehe)
CN: Good call on the Spawning Stone
LG: Jazirian, for the sake of argument
CE: Merrshaulk, the yuan-ti god, is explicitly the chaotic-evil equivalent of Jazirian. For now, it sleeps, but if it should wake the Abyss would tremble.
LE: Ahriman, true form of Asmodeus. For the sake of argument.
NE: Dandy Will, ruler of City-at-the-Center, which exists at the nexus of the three glooms of the Gray Waste.
CG: Eros, the entity that spawned the various concepts which eventually led to the titans and the Olympian pantheon. Eros, cosmic Love incarnate, seems appropriately vast and appropriately chaotic good.
N: The Spire itself, which is logically the equivalent of the Spawning Stone.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Anything that tries to go to whatever is there is either incinerated or enters and never comes back (except for Zaphkiel who is more a servant or Herald of the 7th Heaven than a ruler by any means.
Also, Galgaliel, a solar from the 7th heaven. See the adventure nuggets in planes of law: celestia.
I know that in 3e MotP there are rumors about a race of titan like beings or giants, but I never saw any reference to that in 2e. What we do know from 2e is that very old titans go to Pelion to die there, so their colossal corpses are seen rotting on the white sands. The rumors from 3e probably come from that fact.
Other than that we know that a forgotten pantheon of powers took residence in Pelion after the original creators of the True Words were gone. These powers controlled or at least guarded the True Words for a while and eventually faded from existence, leaving only two proxies that appeared human in appearance. Other than that I'm not sure if there's any other official 2e material about it.
As for speculation, what about that mysterious phoenix power that supposedly have ties to Howler's Crag in the second layer of Pandemonium? The entire second layer of Pandemonium is a mystery in itself, with tunnels that bear the marks of being hand carved, not to mention the Harmonica. Ancient and primal forces could be involved with that layer, and that phoenix like entity could have something to do with it.
Originally posted by Tebryn14
Hey, can anyone tell me which source books have this info? Pelion, for example, doesn't sound familiar. And the mysterious phoenix deity?
Pelion is known to the elves as Mithardir. It is the third layer of Arborea.
The mysterious Phoenix deity is mentioned in Planes of Chaos and nowhere else.
Originally posted by Rikutatis
the original creators of the True Words were gone. These powers controlled or at least guarded the True Words for a while and eventually faded from existence, leaving only two proxies that appeared human in appearance. Other than that I'm not sure if there's any other official 2e material about it.
I don't think the True Words need creators. I think they're a fundamental part of reality itself, that which reality is only a reflection, or a synonym.
There was some ancient race in Pelion who, at least collected these words, discovering the syllables which are to creation as bricks and mortar are to buildings.
I think the words ultimately destroyed them, or else made them more than divine, transcendent beyond where the gods themselves could reach.
From Michael Cisco's novella The Divinity Student (page 75):
You've read about the Eclogue," Fasvergil says, hanging his words carefully in the air, "These unknown words of Shroeder's are its vocabulary, we believe. 'Eclogues' are dialogues between shepherds. The Eclogue is the dialogue of the shepherds of men. That is our conclusion. You are in a position to prove it."
Fasvergil seems oblivious to the Divinity Student. He sits motionless in his chair, his large, colorless eyes fixed on empty air. He speaks as if he were reciting his catechism.
"The Eclogue is the essential substance, or first cause, of creation, and is the source of all renewal. It is much like an invisible fundament that buoys everything up. Also, it is the communion or synthesis of all natural forces."
The True Words and their library are described somewhat in the adventure Dead Gods, for those who don't know. There is slightly more on them in Vecna Reborn.
I don't think the True Words need creators. I think they're a fundamental part of reality itself, that which reality is only a reflection, or a synonym.
That's a very interesting theory. We could also trace some connection between the True Words and the Language Primeval, also known as Alef.
In my own campaign I had both of them as two out of a triad (rule of three) of ancient languages that represented different aspects of the same source and had the power to shape reality. In the campaign these languages were created (or collected as you suggest) eons and eons ago, when the forces of creation were still fresh and lingering about.
I based that explanation of their origins mostly on what's known about the Alef from 2e sources like the Vecna adventures and College of Wizardry.
We could always go for the interpretation that the Language Primeval and the True Words are one and the same, I just chose a different path.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
LN: Primus sounds about right.
CN: Good call on the Spawning Stone
LG: Jazirian, for the sake of argument
CE: Merrshaulk, the yuan-ti god, is explicitly the chaotic-evil equivalent of Jazirian. For now, it sleeps, but if it should wake the Abyss would tremble.
LE: Ahriman, true form of Asmodeus. For the sake of argument.
NE: Dandy Will, ruler of City-at-the-Center, which exists at the nexus of the three glooms of the Gray Waste.
CG: Eros, the entity that spawned the various concepts which eventually led to the titans and the Olympian pantheon. Eros, cosmic Love incarnate, seems appropriately vast and appropriately chaotic good.
N: The Spire itself, which is logically the equivalent of the Spawning Stone.
Nice list. Merrshaulk as the CE primal is inspired.
Don't know about the Spire, though. I don't care for the Spire idea, though; I don't like the idea of including geographical features on the list. The Spawning Stone *does* stuff; the Spire just... *is*. And no, we don't *know* that the Lady is TN, but this whole list is just rumor and speculation anyway. ;)So what about Neutral Good?
Wyvern
Originally posted by Tebryn14
I ahve a problem with both Merrshaulk and the Spawning Stone. If anything, the spawning stone seems more lawful than chaotic, considering that it limits the otherwise fluid forms of the slaadi to the current breeds. Merrshaulk can;'t be a primal, because he is only and intermediate deity. In addition, he is the patron of the Yuan-Ti, and I believe he actually created them. We have laready shown that primals really don't need worshp.
I think the spawning stone was suggested as a Primal in lieu of a better suggestion. It seems to meet many of the criteria though. 1) it actually spawns all the slaadi, which are the exemplars of chaos. 2) it is mysterious. 3) okay, really just 2 that I can think of.
As for Mershaulk, his appeal is that he is a serpent like Ahriman, and Jazirian so there is a certain symmetry there. It would be good if the Chaotic good primal were serpentine in some way to give a 4 corner symmetry.
As you suggested Primals don't need to be worshipped, so it should not matter that Mershaulk is only an intermediate deity. Asmodeous/Ahriman is not even a deity at all.
There is some history behind Mershaulk which makes him a good candidate for Primal, something to do with Vecna and Mershaulk being an aspect of the Serpent which is the source of magic or something. Not sure about the details but have heard mention of them in other threads. Mershaulk sounds like a really good candidate to me.
I have never heard of Eros though, anyone know of any sources I can refer to for some background on him?
Originally posted by Tebryn14
If anything, the spawning stone seems more lawful than chaotic, considering that it limits the otherwise fluid forms of the slaadi to the current breeds.
The spawning stone has been altered, though, by Ygorl and what's-his-mutation. Despite the changes they made it still manages to get true slaadi to spawn every once in a while.
As for Merrshaulk, I don't know that he is? Again, where did the idea that perhaps he is more than the god of yuan-ti come from. I've heard rumors and allusions to the idea as well, just no actual sources.
However... that said there's someone or something that's been collecting true Slaadi who are free of the touch of the Spawning Stone and hiding them away within Limbo. It might be one of the Slaadi Lords themselves, or something else. (see 'Tales from the Infinite Staircase')
Eros is mentioned in On Hallowed Ground, and any good book on Greek mythology.
I would think that to qualify for CG primal you would have to have a link to the origin of the CG exemplars the Eladrins. Is there anyone in their heirarchy or backstory that would be a good candidate for Primal? Preferably serpentine... but that's only an aesthetic consideration to make it symmetric with the other 3 snaky candidates.
What about Titans, are there any Titans that would make a good CG Primal? Typhon is kind of snaky, and kind of an archetype for chaos, but he is probably not CG... but what if he once was?...
I don't want to reject Eros out of hand, however, if you feel strongly about Eros, Rip, I would love to hear your reasons. I bet you have some good stories about him!
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Oh, here's a thought! Zadara is a titan! Maybe she's the CG Primal (or an avatar of her anyway) ;)
*narrows eyes* ... *smiles and is glad for having Adamok Ebon on retainer*
Originally posted by Tebryn14
Perhaps, but what evidence have we that the spawning stone is sentient at all?
As for Merrshaulk, I don't know that he is? Again, where did the idea that perhaps he is more than the god of yuan-ti come from.
From us. We're making this up as we go along, kapiche?
Wyvern
Hmmm...Does the Staircase have a known creator?
-Eric Gorman
I would not choose the CG Primal based off any Realmslore though as the FR cosmology is divorced from the great wheel.
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would not choose the CG Primal based off any Realmslore though as the FR cosmology is divorced from the great wheel.
I second that.
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would not choose the CG Primal based off any Realmslore though as the FR cosmology is divorced from the great wheel.
I'd bet money on a minority of people playing in the realms actually using the 3e FR cosmology. I still use the Great Wheel and of the people I know currently playing FR games, all of them scoffed at the idea of using the new cosmology. It's going to die a slow death of player contempt. If there's a 4th ed, it'll be dead by or before that point. One can only hope.
*still trying to sell Gray's goat to some clerics of Orcus in the Abyss*
As I recall the Lillendi only 'served' Selune in as much as they both had common interests and goals. Also, the lillendi on the staircase itself are somewhat different from those encountered elsewhere on Ysgard.
Also, the Infinite Staircase is only 'grounded' in Selune's realm in Ysgard on nights with a full moon. As such it's a bit of a misnomer to say that the staircase originates in her realm. Likely she had absolutely nothing to do with the stair's creation, but it has a potent attraction to her realm most likely due to her domain/portfolio and aims as a deity. However, it makes you wonder where the 'bottom' of the staircase is on the other 20+ days when there's not a full moon...
Other legends of the staircase say that when the first mortal petitioners migrated to Selune's realm on the outer planes, the Staircase was already there. Some say that the stair existed before the formation of Selune's realm, vastly predating that goddess.
Another interesting legends says that some explorers on the staircase claim to have heard the sounds of building and construction from far off, almost as if some person or force was continually constructing more upon the staircase, stretching it off into infinity. Of course that would indicate that the stair was in fact finite, and there's no evidence to suggest that it isn't infinite as its name suggests.
Hmm... this thread is making me re-read 'Tales from the Infinite Staircase' now. Heh. Damn fine module/sourcebook. Has anyone considered the potential of the being(s) behind the staircase, or the Staircase itself being the CG primal?
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would not choose the CG Primal based off any Realmslore though as the FR cosmology is divorced from the great wheel.
Selune isn't the only deity in the Gates of the Moon. It's also the realm of Soma of the Vedic pantheon.
And pretty much any other gods of the moon you want to stick in there.
Has anyone considered the potential of the being(s) behind the staircase, or the Staircase itself being the CG primal?
Hmmmm... well one of the things you have reminded me of is that the Lillendi and the staircase seem to make their home (or at least originating location) in Ysgard which is one plane off from where you would expect the CG primal to reside.
I think that the CG primal should somehow be tied to Olympus/Arvandor rather than Ysgard, and should maybe be tied to the Eladrin who are the CG exemplars over the Lillendi for the same reason.
Forgive me for being stuck on the serpent thing, but I remember in Australian or Oceanic mythology there is a being called the Rainbow Serpent that is intimately tied to the dreamtime and seems both benign and somewhat chaotic. Is there any entity like that mentioned ever in planescape? He might make a good CG primal.
I need to go read my Planes of Chaos, Warriors in Heaven and other sources to see if we can find mention of some other possible candidates for CG primal. I think there has got to be someone we are overlooking.
Meanwhile, gotta go see some clerics about a goat...
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Has anyone considered the potential of the being(s) behind the staircase, or the Staircase itself being the CG primal?
Well, let's not turn every stone and site into a primal entity. The next thing we know, Mt. Olympus, Styx, Oceanus (the river, not the titan), et al. are all primal beings.
Anyway, isn't there a rainbow dragon in 2E Spelljammer? I recall reading in one of the novels...
Originally posted by Kakabel
Unfortunately Grayman this is where we come up to the problem of alliteration. The Rainbow Serpent is another name for Jazirian, whose people make their homes in jungles. Your Aulstrailian Deity is one and the same for the coutals. Perhaps there's a Native American spirit figure that could serve as a hidden CG primal? A thunderbird or (more likely) a pheonix deity?
Well, not sure if Rainbow Serpent is a nickname or not for Jazirian, but the couatls and the Rainbow Serpent come from very different mythology sources. The couatls come from Meso-American and Aztek mythology whereas the Rainbow Serpent comes from Australian/Oceanic mythology from the opposite side of the world. But I don't really know if that relates to D&D lore in any way, I was just asking if the Rainbow Serpent or an analog had made it's way into planescape. If someone has associated Jazirian with the Rainbow Serpent in published D&D lore then maybe that is not going to work for us.
The more I think of the Lillendi I kind of do whish there was a connection there as they have that serpent thing going on, they make good chaotic counterparts to the lawful serpentine couatls.
Why am I so stuck on the snake trope? Well symmetry for one, Mershaulk, Ahriman & Jazirian are all snaky entities. I think I am also making connections with the idea that we all have this lizard brain from pre-historic, pre-human times. The idea that the Primals are so old that they predate humanity (or demi-humanity) and their form is something older, more ancient than the human form has a tremendous appeal to me.
Reading my planescape material last night the idea that Queen Morwel or the Grandfather Tree might be entities that could possibly qualify as Primal. But they are not snakey. I will keep looking.
In other news Shemeska returned my goat to me safe but not necessarilly sound. Goaty appears to have gained the awakened template and now asks me frequently why it is that goat-kind should have to serve humans when they obviously have no horns. I don't really have an answer for him on that.
http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/dragons.html
for an article on the Mimir suggesting that the outer planes are all (very large) dragons.
Hmmm... could a formerly snaky CG primal shed its skin and disguise itself as someone/something else? Why would it want to?
-Eric Gorman
In other cases the Primal seems to have been a big player in the distant past but then retreated into mystery appearing now to be just some schmoe deity that is not very active on the scene, off hiding or slumbering somewhere.
Maybe the CG primal has similarly made him/her/itself scarce. Either hiding amid the sands of Pelion/Mithardir, or maybe he left to explore the Multiverse or the Far Realms or other cosmologies or even the Prime. He could be just hanging out in a cave on a Prime world, near a little village somewhere, regarded as a jovial old hermit. (That is assuming that a Primal can even actually leave the plane for which it is Primal.)
Or maybe it died, and it's body floats on the Astral somewhere, one of the Dead Gods whose name no one knows. Or maybe it is one of the titans whose body hangs in Carceri.
I like your idea Eric about him shedding his skin and transforming. You're right, no reason to think he couldn't have become someone/thing else. After all, Ahriman is posing as Asmodeus. Heck, Morwel could just be a front for the CGP. People may think she is just this beautiful, flighty, Faerie Queen of the Eladrin, when actually she laid waste to Pelion, threw down those Titanic entities and hung their bodies in Carceri. Now that would be an interesting back-story for her!
Heck, maybe the identity of the CGP can be just one of those mysteries. We know he must have existed but no one knows his story which fuels continuous speculation and searching. Now there could be the hook for a really interesting campaign!
Seen from "above," the Outer Planes are five serpentine forms, each growing from a common center.
In the center a snakelike being thrusts upward, balancing on the end of its tail. It wobbles slightly, but inclines in no direction for long. Around its head, a smaller serpent coils.
Toward Chaos, boiling the effluvium around them, are eight snakelike forms that are at the same time enormous toads and squat, gibbering baboons. They are every color and shape; they quarrel and furiously mate, writhing and hopping and spawning. Although there are eight, moving in every direction at once like randomly fired arrows, at the same time there are only five, and seven, and three. In this direction, numbers are not fixed.
Toward Law are twin serpents, each of their scales perfectly proportional to those around it. One of the serpents is dark and one is light. They are intwined around one another, and spin in a perfect circle. They are the first of the planar wheels.
Toward Evil, a dark gloomy shape drains color and strength from the serpents around it. It lies torpid like a grotesque lizard. Beneath it, its eggs are rotten; misshapen creatures climb out of it.
Toward Good, a brilliantly colored shape coils outwards, its head a blinding light. It circles protectively around shining, flawless spheres.
Between the serpentine forms, other shapes are forming, but it is not yet possible to tell what they are.
As the alignments mature, other powers begin to take shape in the Astral Plane. They soon enter the shifting landscape the serpents are making.
One is Passion, who would later be called Eros. Wherever it travels, the primal entities come together. It finds it enjoys the region between the serpent of light and the eight serpents of Chaos the most.
One is Virtue, which is rejected to varying degrees in most places it settles, until it finds a place between the serpent of light and the serpents of Law.
Then there's Madness and Tyranny, probably. But really, who cares about them?
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
See http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/dragons.html
for an article on the Mimir suggesting that the outer planes are all (very large) dragons.
That reminds me of an interesting little speculative essay I once read (I *wish* I could remember where it was!), concerning the nature of the first inhabitants of the Prime. I don't remember the details, but I think it involved saurial legends, dinosaurs, and the fact that many demons and devils appear more reptilian than mammalian.
Wyvern
We have Primals, creatures of greater deity strength who represent the alignments.
Many ages ago, before the Outer Planes were in any configuration, two of them Jazirian and Asmodeus decided to change that. They failed, though they did establish the Rules, as well as the Great Ring. Asmodeus' blood created the Ancient Baatorians, or perhaps he created them formerly, and his blood created baatezu loyal to him, since the plane had been usurped by the 'loth spawned baatezu.
Now that we have that kinda laid out, is there any way that we can incorporate the World Serpent idea in this? Perhaps the Primals are all just aspects of the World Serpent, along with other beings. And what about those "Giant" deities who lived on the second layer of Arborea? Did they have a connection to the Words that Orcus found there?
Really what I am trying to do is get ideas about how to pull together a whole bunch of mysteries about the Planes into one cohesive creation/eschatological myth that is backed up by evidence. Any suggested sourcebooks would be appreciated.
In the begining the World Serpent was the axis of the multiverse. The World Serpent was the center and the planes revolved around it like a great wheel.
At some point the World Serpent fractured into four or more parts. Why it fractured is a great mystery. Did an imbalance in the wheel tear the Serpent asunder? Did it voluntarily split into 4 (or more) aspects? Was there some great cataclysm? Did the World Serpent die and become reborn--phoenix-like--as it's 4 offspring? Is the World Serpent still alive, and desiring to go off and slumber or perhaps explore other cosmoses it splintered off the others to balance out the wheel? It would make a great story in the telling...
But the end result is that we have Jazirian the LG primal, Ahriman (Asmodeus) the LE primal, Mershaulk the CE primal, who may have sired the first demons, and lastly there is an unknown CG primal who may be the progenitor of the lillends and who may possibly have shed its skin and become Queen Morwel of the Eladrin. Alternatively it could have withdrawn from the day to day world and gone off to seek the World Serpent or is perhaps slumbering or hiding somewhere, maybe under the sands of Pellion/Mithardir. It may have even become an old hermit living in a cave outside a village somewhere in Greyhawk.
In every case the primals are keeping very low key about their former roles as primals and have become reclusive and if they are even still active at all choose to take those actions behind the scenes, acting as powerbrokers and kingmakers rather than kings.
Whether there are only 4 primals or possibly more of them, more splinters from the World Serpent, is also a very good question.
1) The torus of Sigil might be the shed skin of the world serpent, linked in a great circle.
2) The great ring of the Outer Planes themselves might be the body of the World Serpent.
Not saying that either of the above facts are true but do have a certain poetic appeal and is something to consider.
But Merrshaulk I dunno about. He isn't a greater power, though he fits both the alignment and the serpent scheme. Perhaps his slumber is the reason that his power is not of the Greater persuasion? And the progenitor of demons? I was of the belief that the 'loths created the Tanar'ri. The whole Heart of Darkness idea. I think that if any World Serpent ideas are brewed, they need to incorporate the Heart of Darkness, because that has a definable source, as opposed to being hinted at throughout Planescape sources as some of the other topics are.
I dunno that we have any reason to think that Morwel in anything more than the Queen of Elandrins, though there may very well be something that I am unaware of
I was of the belief that the 'loths created the Tanar'ri
Yes, the 'loths would have you believe that. ;)
To the best of my knowledge the Demons were created by Gary Gygax and Brian Blume and predate those dissembling Daemons by a few years. Devils came along after Demons but before the Daemons.
I dunno that we have any reason to think that Morwel in anything more than the Queen of Elandrins, though there may very well be something that I am unaware of
There is no reason at all to suspet that Morwel is a primal aspect of the World Serpent, which means its the perfect disguise! Don't you agree?
You are right though, I have no textual support for my wild speculation. Everything in this thread is just conjecture.
I don't claim Morwel is an aspect of the primal, merely that she is a possible candidate.
My reasons are:
1) that if we have identified 3 primals (Jazirian, Ahriman & Mershaulk) then there ought to be a 4th for the CG corner.
2) Primals seem to be progenitors of or related somehow to exemplar races (Jazirian=couatls and possibly archons, Ahriman=devils, Mershaulk=demons). One may infer that the CG primal may be the progenitor of the CG exemplars the eladrins and/or the lillends who are admittedly a mite more serpentine.
3) Morwel is really the only known power in the CG quadrant who is head of an exemplar race. I am not saying she is definitely the CG primal, but if the primal is still active on the scene and is still around it would pretty much have to be Morwel. Other options are that the primal uses Morwel as a front and chooses to remain anonymous in the background. Or the primal is dead, or gone, or sleeping, or in hiding.
I am going to toss out another idea here which is that if the CG primal is the progenitor of the lillends, then I am going to hypothesize the lillend progenitor is named Lillith, and I have no idea where she went but will conjecture that she might have left the cosmos a long time ago to go seek greater mysteries.
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I am going to toss out another idea here which is that if the CG primal is the progenitor of the lillends, then I am going to hypothesize the lillend progenitor is named Lillith, and I have no idea where she went but will conjecture that she might have left the cosmos a long time ago to go seek greater mysteries.
You get 2 points for utilizing obscure real world religion! If you can pull out some Gnostic references you'll make it into a 3 point play. Lillith was Adam's first wife in Jewish mythology, fled the garden after a distpute with Adam (if you're interested in details look it up yourself), and is attributed to being the progenator of monsters/giants. I like this idea.
The universe, at its birth, was little more than swirling chaos. A primordial soup of infinite possibilities, the cosmos was both everything and nothing. Through some unknown process, forms coalesced out of the chaos, including the planes themselves and those beings later known as gods. Some of these newborn powers reveled in the chaos, while others abhorred it. The conflict between these two groups, between Law and Chaos, difined the planes and the laws that they would obey.
The mightiest of Law's champions were the Twin Serpents. These Cosmic Serpents expressed the duality of Law, and were unstoppable when they worked together.
(Continues on that they were both weakened from struggle and that they had invested a lot of their power in defining the outer planes and were much diminished in the aftermath of their battle. So it was that other gods upsurped them, founding pantheons and spreading their influence throughout the planes.)
There are three points I really like:
First they were unstoppable when they worked together.
Second they were much diminished (Just Greater Powers not requiring belief to sustain them in GtH that other powers required in 2E. Akin to the original Olympian Titans the predecessors of the Olympians powers. Not so much an issue now with 3E/3.5 Deities & Demi-Powers and powers not requiring belief to sustain them.
So why detail the amount of worshippers for each grade of power? D&D details several hundred to several thousand devoted mortal worshipper for the weakest demi-powers but millions of devoted mortal worshippers for greater powers without any entries that power and divine ranking are instead of belief based on the power or nature of the portfolio and one's ranking with overlapping portfolios. Back in 2E and belief, a demi-power only needed a single worshipper to sustain them and if that worshipper died then the demi-power had a few decades to find another while being sustained wringing out the last bit of sustenance from his or her portfolio and unless imprisoned or prevented in some manner would normally have little problem finding one or more worshippers.
Third they were upsurped.
What I find particularly interesting is they were unstoppable when they worked together and in their weakened states they are just greater powers. In D20 gaming products not the books/novels Two overpowers come to mind (hopefully I missed one as I'm aware AO has a superior in the novel but not the Waterdeep adventure). They are AO in the FR and the High God for Krynn DR21+ as per D&D.
No amount of lesser powers can touch them. AO makes or breaks in FR and pretty much the same for the High God. Did they or the Lady of Pain (I always think of her as LN despite being in the Outlands) absorb some of the Twin Serpents lost/invested power?
I'm aware D&D and MotP makes arch fiends and demon lords as non powers or suggests DR1 to DR5. I just find it interesting they left in that little blurp regarding Asmodeus and GtH.
Just a few thoughts.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
You get 2 points for utilizing obscure real world religion! If you can pull out some Gnostic references you'll make it into a 3 point play. Lillith was Adam's first wife in Jewish mythology, fled the garden after a distpute with Adam (if you're interested in details look it up yourself), and is attributed to being the progenator of monsters/giants. I like this idea.
I prefer this origin of Morwel: http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/eladrins_history.html
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
I prefer this origin of Morwel: http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/eladrins_history.html
That's actually a much better origin for Morwel.
Your timeline of the Eladrin has suggested another possible candidate for the CG primal however.
My suggestion is that the CG primal that split off from the World Serpent was a titanic Rainbow Serpent, who made his nest in a garden in Pelion and there slipped into somnolence. Although his great body could not leave the Plane, in his slumbers his spirit would wander the cosmos, eventually discovering the border region of the Deep Ethereal where dreams have form.
He grew to love the dreamtime and became its Guardian. Prefering his spiritual somnambulations to his waking duties as primal, the Guardian created the Eladrins as his exemplars to whom he delegated the prosecution of the cause of chaotic good and gave them Arborea for their home.