Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Dragonhelm Jun 23, 2004 9:35:52	On the Towers of High Sorcery thread, the discussion was leaning towards which wizards in Dragonlance would fit the mantle of the archmage prestige class. So this will be a two-part post. First, which wizards do you think fit the mantle of the archmage? Possible candidates off the top of my head include: Par-Salian Justarius (Justinius if ye be from the south east side ;) ) Ladonna Fistandantilus Raistlin (he always has to be mentioned) Who else? The second part of this post is to address which classes would best fit the archmage prestige class. The wizard is a shoe-in, as the archmage fits their feel quite well. Not only does it fit nicely with the WoHS (especially the Conclave), but the High Arcana ability has a nice in-world feel in relation to High Sorcery. Just to think, this was created originally for the Realms! But what about sorcerers? Personally, I can’t think of many sorcerers who fit this mold. Palin, maybe. Sorcery is so new, though, that I don’t think a lot of sorcerers have amassed the amount of power, skill, and knowledge it would take to be an archmage. Again, I look at flavor, and I still feel that the High Arcana ability fits perfectly with the WoHS, and hardly at all with sorcerers. What do you guys think?
#2 cam_banks Jun 23, 2004 9:54:02	A wizard needs to be at least 13th level before he or she can pick up the archmage class. That's a hefty level requirement, and it reflects the degree of power the character requires before even setting foot on the path of the archmagus. A sorcerer needs to be at least 14th level, disadvantaged mainly by the 7th level spellcasting requirement. Of interest is the fact that the archmage requires knowledge of 5th level or higher spells from at least 5 schools. Most specialist wizards who become Wizards of High Sorcery will only have 5 schools that qualify - the two open schools of conjuration and evocation, divination (which all wizards retain), and their two Order schools. In the case of White Robe wizards, they will also have one other non-Order school (usually one of the Red Robe schools), but it's still pretty tight. Sorcerers don't have the problem of limited schools, but they do need to be careful which spells they select at higher levels. At 14th level, when they have attained enough levels to qualify for the class, they only have 6 spells known of 5th level or higher (3 5th, 2 6th and one 7th) so of those 6, five need to come from different schools. That's tricky, and something that could be overlooked by those playing sorcerers (who like to go for the immediately useful spells from the conjuration, transmutation and evocation schools before the others). Cheers, Cam
#3 dragontooth Jun 23, 2004 11:13:22	Galan Dracos I don't think Magius was an Archmage, but he was close.
#4 quentingeorge Jun 23, 2004 15:53:21	What about Vincil, Head of the conclave pre Lost Battles. The wizards should have been at thbe height of their powers.
#5 darthsylver Jun 23, 2004 16:00:38	Why wouldn't magius have been an archmage? How come nobody mentioned Dalamar?
#6 quentingeorge Jun 23, 2004 16:09:31	We already have stats for Dalamar. By the way, just checked the Tower of High Sorcery preview - it has Vincil's stats. Yes, he has the Archmage PrC. What a guess!
#7 eaglos Jun 23, 2004 17:25:58	Bupu fits perfectly. :D
#8 Dragonhelm Jun 23, 2004 17:47:40	Originally posted by darthsylver Why wouldn't magius have been an archmage? How come nobody mentioned Dalamar? Magius perhaps could have become an archmage someday, but his death put an end to that. Remember as well that he was trained as a war wizard, so maybe he has war mage levels. I think he had the potential to have been one of the greatest archmages ever, but he never reached that potential. Had Dalamar's stats not existed already, I'd say he could be one as well.
#9 Nived Jun 23, 2004 19:39:29	Dalamar's not dead yet, and dispite the early Age of Mortals giving him a few wrinkles I'm sure the ol' boy has enough years left in him to get those Archmage levels.
#10 karui_kage Jun 23, 2004 20:46:07	Well, we have Dalamar's stats, but we also have Palin's. So technically, he shouldn't be mentioned either.
#11 dragontooth Jun 23, 2004 22:36:55	Originally posted by darthsylver Why wouldn't magius have been an archmage? How come nobody mentioned Dalamar? Like Dragonhelm pointed out. Magius was more of a warmage, and proficese(spelling) (seeing into the future) Type of caster. To me he really didn't fit the mold for an Archmage. He was a damn good wizard though, and had magical ability to be an Archmage ie. 7th lvl spells but thats pretty much it.
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 23, 2004 23:33:51	The Black Robe that cast the curse upon the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthus. When you look at how powerfull a curse that was, that particular Wizard had to draw upon some truely powerfull magic to do so, even if he died in the process.
#13 Nived Jun 23, 2004 23:41:44	See page 190 of the DLCS. Dying curses are POWERFUL magic. Heck it even uses that black robe's curse as an example.
#14 dragontooth Jun 24, 2004 2:00:03	Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte The Black Robe that cast the curse upon the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthus. When you look at how powerfull a curse that was, that particular Wizard had to draw upon some truely powerfull magic to do so, even if he died in the process. He wasn't all that powerful, and he was a pawn of Fistandantalas(sp) to lazy to look up the spelling of his name.
#15 zombiegleemax Jun 24, 2004 2:20:24	Just so I can play too, I submit the Wizard Gargath for consideration.
#16 hatrel Jun 24, 2004 7:40:52	As to there not being many Sorcerers that would qualify, I think that their Wizard/WoHS levels tranfered to Sorcerer levels, did they not? So the power thing would not be an issue. Though that magic is relatively new, their experience and knowledge would still allow them to make it work.
#17 Dragonhelm Jun 24, 2004 7:46:57	Originally posted by Hatrel As to there not being many Sorcerers that would qualify, I think that their Wizard/WoHS levels tranfered to Sorcerer levels, did they not? So the power thing would not be an issue. Though that magic is relatively new, their experience and knowledge would still allow them to make it work. Not every wizard was able to make that switch, though. Certainly, it seems as if the most powerful ones didn't.
#18 brimstone Jun 24, 2004 10:35:26	Originally posted by Nived See page 190 of the DLCS. Dying curses are POWERFUL magic. Heck it even uses that black robe's curse as an example. There's a problem with that, though. Fistandantilus is the one who cast the spell that cursed the tower...not Andras Rannoch (as explained in the Kingpriest Trilogy...or maybe he just taught it to him, I'm a little fuzzy on that at the moment). I'm not quite sure how that works then, though. It seems like it'd no longer be a dying curse...since the one casting the spell doesn't die. Hrm.... Either way...Mr. Rannoch was a very low level wizard. Certainly not an Archmage at any rate.
#19 darthsylver Jun 24, 2004 13:44:52	A dying curse is probably like a spell but one that requires the willing sacrifice of a wizard. Most would probably assume that the willing sacrifice is the one casting the spell. Figures it would Fistandantilus to be the one to figure out that little loophole.:D
#20 zombiegleemax Jun 24, 2004 13:59:18	By my reckoning Fisty casting the spell would fall in the catagory of what Wies and Hickman called "kender tales." Can't believe everything you read .
#21 zombiegleemax Jun 24, 2004 16:39:12	Palin and Jenna as well. What about the heads of the Orders during the Reign of the Kingpriest? I dont recall their names.
#22 quentingeorge Jun 25, 2004 1:24:48	Heads of Order during the Lost Battles: Vincil the Red Robe is in the preview for the Tower of High Sorcery.
#23 zombiegleemax Jun 25, 2004 1:29:41	Well, here's the thing about sorcerers being archmages...let's take Dalamar for example. Dalamar is a Wizard 7/Black Robe 10. So, let's assume level 17 Sorcerer. He wouldn't be an Academy Sorcerer, as he didn't train in one. So anyway... he would need 15 ranks in Knowledge(arcana) and Spellcraft...done. Spell focus in 2 or more schools of magic...not done, but cold easily have *BEEN* done. Same with Skill Focus(Spellcraft). But, what about the spellcasting requirements? Not only is it slightly more difficult for sorcs to get into archmage anyway, think about this. He needs the ability to cast these prerequisite spells. That's almost impossible to do. Sorcery was discovered in 20 SC. At that point, with the dead draining magic, Dalamar would only be an eqivalent to a 15th level sorc for spellcasting purposes. But, also take into account that Dalamar wasn't terribly active during the 5th Age, so he wouldn't have gained many levels. So, by the time he would have really gotten more mastery over sorcery(i.e. raise some more levels), I would put it at around 30 SC. Now, he has a -5 caster level, making him about a level 12 sorc in spellcasting power. But, this is assuming he is level 17 all throughout the 5th Age, which is definately untrue. He would have had to gain at least 3 levels, 1 to convert his wizard levels to sorcerer, and another to chnage them back.So, while he was a sorcerer, it is very likely that he simply could not meet the pre-reqs for Archmage. And if Dalamar can't do it, then very few other people could.
#24 cam_banks Jun 25, 2004 6:21:04	Personally, I don't believe Dalamar was ever a sorcerer during the 5th Age. I believe that he remained a wizard, and that the knowledge the Shadow Sorcerer gave him regarding necromancy wasn't the secret of using ambient magic, but the ability to access the magic being siphoned away from Krynn and its spellcasters by the undead and use it to power his wizard spells. He seemed to remain in one place (the Tower in Nightlund), surrounded by undead, and didn't appear to have much difficulty with spellcasting, as noticed by Palin. When this avenue of supply eventually ran out, as it did at the end of the War of Souls, Dalamar was very fortunate that the gods of magic gave him access to their magic again, for Takhisis' network of magic-draining souls had gone. It's a personal theory, of course, nothing official, but in my campaign that's what he did. Cheers, Cam
#25 sweetmeats Jun 25, 2004 9:58:11	Whats this Lost Age people have referred to?
#26 zombiegleemax Jun 25, 2004 10:09:17	As far as I know there is not any evidence to support the claim that Dalamar the Dark was a sorcerer.
#27 zombiegleemax Jun 25, 2004 10:11:00	As far as I know there is not any evidence to support the claim that Dalamar the Dark was a sorcerer. BUPU? NOW SEE SOME HOT MAGIC!
#28 brimstone Jun 25, 2004 10:54:11	Originally posted by Cam Banks It's a personal theory, of course, nothing official, but in my campaign that's what he did. I like that idea! That clears up the boo boo made in DoaLS that 5th Age Necromancy is sorcery (since it's actually mysticism). So, this magic that the Shadow Sorcerer taught Dalamar was really something completely different...but because he was ciphoning off magic from the undead, he incorrectly referred to it as necromancy. Cool idea, Cam.
#29 zombiegleemax Jun 25, 2004 13:04:38	I too must concur that the 5th Age is a problem, however, whether we like it or not, it is still apart of official Dragonlance history. Notice I say official, most of what we do is not official.
#30 brimstone Jun 25, 2004 13:08:50	Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn I too must concur that the 5th Age is a problem Concur with who? What brought this on?
#31 quentingeorge Jun 25, 2004 16:45:48	Eh..what brought on the "bash the Fifth Age" comment?
#32 Dragonhelm Jun 25, 2004 16:54:34	Let's ease off the 4th age vs. 5th age bit here. My guess is that the post meant to say (and correct me if I'm wrong) that how Dalamar is viewed in the early Age of Mortals is problematic, due to the change of magic and him referring to his magic as necromancy. Honestly, I just can't see Dalamar as a mystic. Cam's idea is pretty cool, although I could also see him as a sorcerer who found a way to specialize as a necromancer (PHB school, not sphere of mysticism). Anyway, let's try to get back on topic, if we could please.
#33 brimstone Jun 25, 2004 16:55:23	Originally posted by QuentinGeorge Eh..what brought on the "bash the Fifth Age" comment? What "bash the Fifth Age" comment? I made no (nor would ever make) such a comment.
#34 Dragonhelm Jun 25, 2004 17:19:21	Originally posted by Brimstone What "bash the Fifth Age" comment? I made no (nor would ever make) such a comment. I think he was referring to Amaron's comment above. Let's move past this, guys and get back on topic, if we could please.
#35 zombiegleemax Jun 25, 2004 23:19:13	No evidence that Dalamar was a Sorcerer? Well, for one, in the Age of Mortals book, it mentions somehting about the Shadow Sorcerer teaching Palin(and, in secret, Dalamar) the wild magic. Another example, and probably the best: Dalamar has the Undead Battery feat. This feat enables you to drain an undead creature of its energy to empower your spells. AKA what Dalamar did. And, (sorry about this Cam), but Dalamar could not use this feat if he were a wizard; the prereqs include being able to cast sorcery or mysticism. So, to drain the undead, Dalamar must have had the Undead Battery feat. To get that feat, he must have been able to cast sorcery or mysticism. He was taught how to do this by the Shadow Sorcerer, erego, Dalamar must have been a Sorcerer. SHAZAM!
#36 karui_kage Jun 25, 2004 23:43:56	Of course Dalamar was a sorcerer. Dalamar and Palin were both Sorcerers during the fifth age, as taught to them by the Shadow Sorcerer. It even discusses how they could convert their wizard levels to sorcerer ones in the DLCS. However, as soon as the gods of magic (moons) returned, and raised both of them, they offered to grant them the magic back (after the whole 'trial' kind of process. See the last war of souls book). Dalamar accepted, and so as he preffered wizardry, converted his sorcerer levels back to wizard. Palin decided not to accept the magic, and so his levels remained the same, as sorcerer/academy sorcerer levels. Both of these are shown in the Age of Mortals book. I'm not sure what would happen to any feats based on sorcery (like the necromancy one discussed above) however. Perhaps he'd get to trade them in as well, for metamagic ones, or perhaps they are just lost feats. Go figure.
#37 cam_banks Jun 26, 2004 5:35:11	Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007 Dalamar has the Undead Battery feat. This feat enables you to drain an undead creature of its energy to empower your spells. AKA what Dalamar did. And, (sorry about this Cam), but Dalamar could not use this feat if he were a wizard; the prereqs include being able to cast sorcery or mysticism. Of course, you would lift that requirement if you went with this theory. If the Shadow Sorcerer taught the art of draining stored spell energy to Dalamar, rather than the art of wild magic, he'd be able to use it to power his own wizard spells. Cheers, Cam
#38 zombiegleemax Jun 26, 2004 13:26:08	I am not bashing the 5th Age, I simply stated that is causes problems for those fans who like classic Dragonlance (the Wars of the Lance, Huma) because in the 5th Age, at least up until the War of Souls, DL was sans many of the elements that made it DL.
#39 orodruin Jun 27, 2004 9:43:11	For some reason, I keep thinking of the original idea behind the Archmage, that is, a (1st edition) magic-user who achieved "name level" that is, 18th level. Only Archmages (with an intelligence of 18) were able to cast 9th level spells. According to the old Dragonlance Adventures hardcover, the Gods pretty much restricted how far a character could advance, for instance, Par-Salian, as head of the conclave, was the only one allowed to reach 18th level, making him the only "official" archmage. Ladonna and Justarius (or Justinius) were 17th and 16th level respectively, iirc. Renegades like Raistlin were exempt, of course (I think he was something like 24th level). As was Fistandantilus (DLA had him at 17th, but that HAD to be a typo.)
#40 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2004 10:56:27	How do you become an archmage and what does an archmage do?
#41 wdarkk Jun 27, 2004 14:28:58	Originally posted by Orodruin For some reason, I keep thinking of the original idea behind the Archmage, that is, a (1st edition) magic-user who achieved "name level" that is, 18th level. Only Archmages (with an intelligence of 18) were able to cast 9th level spells. According to the old Dragonlance Adventures hardcover, the Gods pretty much restricted how far a character could advance, for instance, Par-Salian, as head of the conclave, was the only one allowed to reach 18th level, making him the only "official" archmage. Ladonna and Justarius (or Justinius) were 17th and 16th level respectively, iirc. Renegades like Raistlin were exempt, of course (I think he was something like 24th level). As was Fistandantilus (DLA had him at 17th, but that HAD to be a typo.) Then how come _all_ the Black Robes Raistlin fought in Neraka used Wish to get out? Back then you needed to be 18th level to cast 9th level spells...
#42 sweetmeats Jun 27, 2004 14:55:33	Originally posted by wdarkk Then how come _all_ the Black Robes Raistlin fought in Neraka used Wish to get out? Back then you needed to be 18th level to cast 9th level spells... Wheres it say that?
#43 iltharanos Jun 27, 2004 15:17:23	Originally posted by SweetMeats Wheres it say that? Here's the quote from Book 3, Chapter 12 of the Dragons of Spring Dawning: Finally came the Black Robes, the eldest of the Order, to destroy this young upstart. But they found to their dismay that - old as they were - Raistlin was in some mysterious way older still. His power was phenomenal, they knew within an instant that he could not be defeated. The air was filled with the sounds of chanting and, one by one, they disappeared as swiftly as they had come - many bowing to Raistlin in profound respect as they departed upon the wings of wish spells.
#44 cam_banks Jun 27, 2004 15:19:25	To be fair, the 18th level limit rule was only ever included in Dragonlance Adventures, and wasn't in practice in any of the modules or used in 2nd edition versions of the setting onwards. It's something of a non-issue now. Cheers, Cam
#45 sweetmeats Jun 27, 2004 15:21:35	Iltharanos, Thanx for pointing that out. Can't say I remember that.
#46 wdarkk Jun 27, 2004 15:22:18	Dragons of Spring Dawning, p345 of the paperback. "..departed upon the wings of wish spells." [Edit - beaten to it.]
#47 quentingeorge Jun 27, 2004 15:26:25	the 18 level limit was gone by the days of the Tales of the Lance boxset. Fistandantilus was statted as a 23rd level wizard in it.
#48 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2004 19:51:23	Another imporant thing for us to remember is that what happens in the books is not always able to occur in the game. I think I read somewhere in an interview with Weis or Hickman that Raistlin was able to cast the spells that the writers felt were needed at the juncture in time that he cast them. Another example, elves in the game are immune to sleep effects yet Silvara was able to put both Gilthanas and Laurana to sleep in the Monument of the Silver Dragon.
#49 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2004 19:51:27	Another imporant thing for us to remember is that what happens in the books is not always able to occur in the game. I think I read somewhere in an interview with Weis or Hickman that Raistlin was able to cast the spells that the writers felt were needed at the juncture in time that he cast them. Another example, elves in the game are immune to sleep effects yet Silvara was able to put both Gilthanas and Laurana to sleep in the Monument of the Silver Dragon.
#50 darthsylver Jun 27, 2004 19:52:30	YOu have got to remember that authors of novels and creators of game resorces don't always coincide with each other. Most authors don't know that Wish is a 9th level spell and therefore according to game rules was a very rare spell know to few much less used by even less. Most wizards would have just used tleport spells rather than the XP draining wish spell. (Don't remember if it was a Wish spell in 2E, but teleport was most certainly more beneficial as far as for transport than Wish). DANGETT Amaron, what are you doing intercepting my brainwaves man. If I was just a few seconds quicker.
#51 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2004 19:53:18	oops, didnt mean to post that last post twice! SOWWY.
#52 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2004 20:26:46	Thanks for explaining it to me.
#53 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2004 20:35:24	Originally posted by darthsylver YOu have got to remember that authors of novels and creators of game resorces don't always coincide with each other. Most authors don't know that Wish is a 9th level spell and therefore according to game rules was a very rare spell know to few much less used by even less. Most wizards would have just used tleport spells rather than the XP draining wish spell. (Don't remember if it was a Wish spell in 2E, but teleport was most certainly more beneficial as far as for transport than Wish). DANGETT Amaron, what are you doing intercepting my brainwaves man. If I was just a few seconds quicker. PREPARE FOR MIND CONTROL "Time Bandits"
#54 orodruin Jun 27, 2004 21:32:14	Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn Another imporant thing for us to remember is that what happens in the books is not always able to occur in the game. I think I read somewhere in an interview with Weis or Hickman that Raistlin was able to cast the spells that the writers felt were needed at the juncture in time that he cast them. Another example, elves in the game are immune to sleep effects yet Silvara was able to put both Gilthanas and Laurana to sleep in the Monument of the Silver Dragon. True! Theoretically, even Raistlin wouldn't be able to cast 9th level spells, since his Intellligence wasn't high enough (17) It was just one of those cases where the books didn't bother to comply with the game mechanics.
#55 zombiegleemax Jun 28, 2004 10:12:56	All of the above is true. I think that people need to realize that before they start arguing whether or not something is possible. In the game, maybe not? For the author? Yes or no. Which is right? They both are, within their given environments.
#56 archmage Jun 29, 2004 13:40:21	Originally posted by QuentinGeorge Heads of Order during the Lost Battles: Vincil the Red Robe is in the preview for the Tower of High Sorcery. Where is this preview located? I can't seem to find it.
#57 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2004 13:41:52	dragonlance.com
#58 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 11:38:38	There is a new update about the Towers of High Sorcery out today.
#59 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 22:28:13	Originally posted by Orodruin True! Theoretically, even Raistlin wouldn't be able to cast 9th level spells, since his Intellligence wasn't high enough (17) It was just one of those cases where the books didn't bother to comply with the game mechanics. Ummm....Raistlin had a 17 Int at 3rd level. By level 35, I should hope he put a point or two more into it!
#60 quentingeorge Jul 01, 2004 1:36:41	pre 3rd edition, there were no level-based stat increases.
#61 redwizard Jul 01, 2004 1:59:08	Ah yes, the good old days;)
#62 orodruin Jul 01, 2004 3:21:48	Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007 Ummm....Raistlin had a 17 Int at 3rd level. By level 35, I should hope he put a point or two more into it! You're forgetting that we're talking 1st and 2nd ecition here. No stat increases without the aid of magic.
#63 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2004 9:58:24	I hope that of all the characters in the Dragonlance sage, Raistlin was epic level. You would think he would have to be to challenge the Dark Queen. About what level was he when he did so in 1st edition. I cant believe he was only 18th.
#64 archmage Jul 01, 2004 15:02:41	Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn I hope that of all the characters in the Dragonlance sage, Raistlin was epic level. You would think he would have to be to challenge the Dark Queen. About what level was he when he did so in 1st edition. I cant believe he was only 18th. He was 20th-level, actually, which made him pretty special in a world where no one could be higher than 18th-level. Anyway, I'm certain Raistlin is epic-level because in the Towers of High Sorcery preview, the stats for Highmage Vincil are given. Since Vincil is a 21st-level arcane spellcaster, you can pretty much bet that Raistlin will be a bit more powerful than that. Although I think it's too much to hope that Raistlin will actually have the Epic Spellcasting feat. That would totally rock in my book if he did have it.
#65 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2004 22:51:52	Originally posted by Archmage Although I think it's too much to hope that Raistlin will actually have the Epic Spellcasting feat. I also hope that Raistlin has the Epic Spellcasting feat, since I can't see another way to create the Lived Ones (I am not sure if I recall the name correctly... ) that he created under the Tower of Palanthas...
#66 zombiegleemax Jul 02, 2004 9:32:48	I would think that in order to open the Portal to the Abyss it would take an epic level spell. I wonder if Lady Crysania would also be considered epic level or if the order of Paladine was still to new to have that level of power in it.