My query is, is the red-winged beastie on the cover the Dragonspawn from the module? Silly question, I know.
My reason for asking is that in the DLCS and in the novels, the description doesn't really fit that appearence.
I remember when reading the Dragons of a New Age trilogy, that the description always made me thinking of muscular, chromatic versions of the Aliens (from the movies of the same name).
Just curious is all.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
My query is, is the red-winged beastie on the cover the Dragonspawn from the module? Silly question, I know.
Yes, she's a red dragonspawn. The current "look" for them is more human-like or demonic than the more reptilian appearance of draconians, although dragonspawn (especially earlier ones) vary in the degree to which they possess dragon-like traits.
It will come as no surprise to most that conceptually, dragonspawn and half-dragons share a number of similarities. In effect, dragonspawn replace half-dragons in the Dragonlance setting, and as such will often look very much like the typical D&D half-dragon. This means that you may find dragonspawn with more humanoid facial features, or those with characteristics of the dragon from whom they gained their draconic essence, depending on the individual.
Cheers,
Cam
The new look exemplifies the idea that dragonspawn are actually a corruption of humanity. I think this is far more interesting than the presentation of spawn in the Dragons of a New Age trilogy, where they seemed to be mindless shock troops.
Of course, I don't mind the different CR for each of the different types of dragonspawn. Would I have to change the CR for dragonspawn if I removed the retributive strike post-mortem ability?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
In effect, dragonspawn replace half-dragons in the Dragonlance setting.
Sincerely, I can't see why we can't have both dragonspawn AND half-dragon in DragonLance...
They come from two very diferent sources. Dragonspawn are the corruption of humans or other creatures by the dark magic of the overlords, but hal-dragon are the offspring of a mate between a dragon and a humanoid. Since Dragonlance is full of love stories between dragons and humans/elves, then why is so wrong with half-dragons?
We haven't see any of them in the novels, but that doesn't mean that there are no one out there...
Half-dragons should be extremely rare in DragonLance, but they can exist... at least this is my point of view, and if one player wants to play a half-dragon I will not say NO, but I will want a deep and rich background on WHY this character is a half-dragon...
Just my thoughts...
Originally posted by Devouring_Dark
Since Dragonlance is full of love stories between dragons and humans/elves, then why is so wrong with half-dragons?
First, those love stories are tragic in nature. Secondly, consider this not as just an allowable race mechanics-wise, but rather the role it presents in the setting.
The role of the dragon-man is already taken by draconians. Dragonspawn are a bit of a continuation of this. The difference here being that draconians are the corruption of dragon eggs while dragonspawn are the imposition of evil draconic nature on a mortal, ending with the corruption of the mortal mind, body, and spirit.
Adding half-dragons to the mix could take away from the unique nature of the existing dragon-men races.
Now, if a person were to play a half-dragon, I would approach it with the idea of the half-dragon being unique. Perhaps there's some tragedy in the past, and perhaps the love of the parents ended in tragedy. Maybe the half-dragon's life centers around tragedy.
I wouldn't really recommend adding in half-dragons, but if the player really wants to play one, then I would allow him. However, there would have to be a very interesting background that conveyed the feel of Dragonlance to go with it.
Personally I never see anything as redundant. I think half-dragons are different than draconians and dragonspawn. Just like I don't see paladins as redundant either...I didnt like it when it was stated that paladins werent needed because of the Knights of Solamnia. But thats a different topic heh.
I would use half-dragons if someone really wanted to.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
First, those love stories are tragic in nature.
I already assumed that. And what can be more tragic than to give birth a creature that will not find solace in this world?
Adding half-dragons to the mix could take away from the unique nature of the existing dragon-men races.
I don't see why... All they are different races, with different natures, and no one of them will replace the other.
Other "Rules of Dragonlance" include the following:
- No Psionics
- No Drow
- No Orcs
Things like that. Half-Dragons, though they fit a different role, don't seem right to include in a world that is already choked with different kinds of Spawn of Dragons. It's not that it's redundant, it's just a flavor thing.
An example. Half-Dragons are Mayonaise. It's a good toping, it fits well into quite a few dishes (ie. Campaign Worlds). Dragonlance is chocolate ice cream. Rich and creamy and awesome. Now, if you like Mayonaise on your Chocolate Ice Cream, that's fine with me. But if you come into my house and ask for that, I'd probably smack you upside the head and laugh.
If you see half-dragons as redundant...that draconians and dragonspawn take the place of them...do you not have noble draconians then? Or do you see them as different? I personally see nobles as kind of redundant, since dragonspawn don't always have to be evil..but I've used a noble draconian once.
Thing is, Noble Draconians are just a different variety of Draconian. Saying they're redundant is like saying that having Kapak AND Baaz AND Aurak is redundant. They're all Draconians.
tl;dr - Half-Dragons are Mayonaise. Dragonlance is Ice Cream. They do not go together.
-TRRW
For instance, the party encountered a large feral looking Sivak during one adventure, that flew better and had a breath weapon. Scared them rather well.
I had given the Sivak the half-silver dragon template and labelled it as one of a rare few draconians that still held traits of the dragons they were made from.
Originally posted by Devouring_Dark
I already assumed that. And what can be more tragic than to give birth a creature that will not find solace in this world?
Which is what I'd shoot for if a person ever wanted to play a half-dragon in one of my campaigns.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Which is what I'd shoot for if a person ever wanted to play a half-dragon in one of my campaigns.
But not a half-kodragon. If you have a player who wants to play one of those, just send him along and I'll have a word with him.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by True_Blue
If you see half-dragons as redundant...that draconians and dragonspawn take the place of them...do you not have noble draconians then? Or do you see them as different? I personally see nobles as kind of redundant, since dragonspawn don't always have to be evil..but I've used a noble draconian once.
Noble draconians, as mentioned in the post above, are a different variety of draconians - an existing concept. Draconians and dragonspawn are different conceptually, so that still works.
What happens if we add dragonkin from the Realms? What happens if we add 5 other varieties of dragon-men? At what point are draconians and dragonspawn no longer special? At what point is it too much?
I will say that this has, indeed, become a "Rule of Dragonlance". Margaret Weis herself has said that there are no half-dragons on Krynn.
Granted, this goes against an old Dragon magazine article that had half-silvers for Dragonlance. However, those half-dragons don't resemble traditional D&D half-dragons. They appear as their non-dragon parent. No wings or anything. Good candidate for the dragon disciple PrC, though. ;)
Personally I never see anything as redundant. I think half-dragons are different than draconians and dragonspawn. Just like I don't see paladins as redundant either...I didnt like it when it was stated that paladins werent needed because of the Knights of Solamnia. But thats a different topic heh.
Yeah, I personally wouldn't disallow paladins. I think people just need to not think of paladins as knights.
Really, if you want to add half-dragons to your campaign, go for it. I recommend putting in a sense of tragedy in to give more of a DL feel to it.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
But not a half-kodragon. If you have a player who wants to play one of those, just send him along and I'll have a word with him.
Cheers,
Cam
The person you should talk to is one Andre' La Roche, for this particular creation:
Kodragonspawn
Originally posted by Cam Banks
But not a half-kodragon. If you have a player who wants to play one of those, just send him along and I'll have a word with him.
I wanna play a half-funno! ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The person you should talk to is one Andre' La Roche, for this particular creation:
Kodragonspawn
You forget, that was written for April Fool's day.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
You forget, that was written for April Fool's day.
I didn't forget. I just find it funny that you did it at all. :D
And after check the issue number 320 of Dragon Magazine where we can find how to play dragons from 1st level, now I want to play a silver dragon mystic.
Since Paladine is no longer a god after the War of Souls, she will be a mystic with the Sun domain, and she will continue honor all the Gods of Light but her heart and deepest faith will always remain with Paladine... And she will remain in humanoid form almost all the time (she doesn't want to reveal her true nature even to her companions...) She will appear as a half-elf with silver hair, gray eyes and pale skin...
If I can't play a half-dragon, then I will play a DRAGON!! :D
(I am thinking to change the Exalted Arcanist prestige class from the Book of Exalted Deeds to make it also available to mystics...)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Yes, she's a red dragonspawn. The current "look" for them is more human-like or demonic than the more reptilian appearance of draconians, although dragonspawn (especially earlier ones) vary in the degree to which they possess dragon-like traits.
Well...that was my thinking as well. It's so hard to conjur up an image because there's hardly any damn art of them. But, when looking back at SAGA pencil art in the books, they do definately look more human than reptillian.
So, I'm wondering, why did the Bestiary of Krynn go back and make the two dragonspawns in there look more draconian than human? Then again, I have no problem ignoring that art (and the tylor and the hatori
) It's really a shame that three of my favorite monsters in krynn (dragonspawn, tylor, and hatori) all had the same artist in the book, an artist whose art I couldn't get into. Ah well, I'll live.
If you've read DoaNA, then recall to mind exactly HOW Skie created the first stable dragonspawn, and how every subsequent spawn was created:
He cast a clone spell on a draconian, and allowed a little bit of his own substance to taint the spell. The human body was simply used to provide MATTER. Something to clone onto, to make it stable. The human is, in fact, the LEAST important of the three creatures involved in the creation of dragonspawn. Humans are raw material. The dragon and the draconian are the important part, they contribute the DESIGN.
Because what is a dragonspawn, when you come down to it? It's a more-draconic draconian (flight, breath weapon), with chromatic dragon genes mixed in.
Now I'm not particularly concerned with half-dragons. I think that is the perfect template for dragonspawn, if you don't want the exploding ones provided in the DLCS. Frankly I don't, because it doesn't take a genius to see why having exploding minions is a liability more than a benefit. I'd have to say, if I was a dragon highlord, Baaz and Sivak draconians are all I'd use.
In my own campaign, I'm afraid Draconians are going to be largely forgotten and eclipsed by Dragonspawn. You might find a few of them lingering around in small bands, but they have no city state or females to keep them going.
Originally posted by ferratus
Frankly I don't, because it doesn't take a genius to see why having exploding minions is a liability more than a benefit
Well...the difference is, is that dragonspawn explosions are elemental damage based (does that makes sense?) So as long as a Dragonlord or Overlord doesn't mix his dragonspawn in his army, there is no need to worry. If a black dragonspawn explodes in an acidic mess next two a few other black dragonspawns...they're immune to that damage. Same goes for the other four.
Now a bozak...that's a different story...that's physical damage.
And kapaks tended to be scouts and assasins, so the acid wasn't much of a liability. And auraks, for the most part, stand in the back and play magical artillery. The baaz are the only ones that occur in any concentration, and their death throes are harmless to bystanders.
That was the best death throe
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
My favorite though is the Sivak Shape Change Death Throe. Imagine this...it takes a rather tough customer to defeat Sivaks on the battlefield. Now imagine yourself as a conscripted soldier entering the field in the second wave.....seeing the Sivak corpses on the ground that appear to be those tough grizzled soldiers you looked up to when you were training.....your morale just went waaaaay down...as a matter of fact you might be thinking on running and abandoning battle....
That was the best death throe
The big question is, is the dead guy a draconian or not? Since the Sivak shapechange when they kill someone and when they die, you can never be sure which is which afterwards if you didn't see the fight.
sheesh...doesnt anyone see the amazing military genuis involved in the draconian death throes?
I figured that was self-explanatory. I was simply explaining why they weren't a liability to the OTHER dracos.
The big question is, is the dead guy a draconian or not? Since the Sivak shapechange when they kill someone and when they die, you can never be sure which is which afterwards if you didn't see the fight.
True story. After a battle, sivaks make perfect infiltrators. If the enemy troops retreat, they can follow with impunity, and just burn down their camp at night.
While reading DoaNA, I saw dragonspawn as the evil dragon versions of draconians, rather than some sort of succubus-looking creation on KoD.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...the difference is, is that dragonspawn explosions are elemental damage based (does that makes sense?) So as long as a Dragonlord or Overlord doesn't mix his dragonspawn in his army, there is no need to worry. If a black dragonspawn explodes in an acidic mess next two a few other black dragonspawns...they're immune to that damage. Same goes for the other four.
Well granted, but what about equipment? What about collateral damage to all your stuff? That isn't protected by elemental damage.
So if you send only dragonspawn out, naked, and throw them against the enemy, then yes it makes sense.
The only way it makes sense is if you know for a fact that the draconians or dragonspawn that explode will do so only among enemy soldiers and enemy possessions. That means you do it only on select agents which are meant to act as suicide bombers or cover their tracks by immolating their own corpse.
Now a bozak...that's a different story...that's physical damage.
Well, here is where I'm afraid I'm going to have to refute everything that Serena has said about the military usefullness of draconians. I think it should also be a warning to never put wizards in charge of your military. Their hearts were in the right place, but they obviously didn't think things through.
Baaz: Baaz are the rank and file, and since they fight with sword and shield, the tactic they is that of the shield wall. That means they form ranks, and hold ranks to prevent people from getting through. Now how in the hell do you maintain that shield wall when your soldiers start turning to stone? You end up with gaps in your wall, your soldiers having to move around these pillars on the battlefield, and just generally dissolving into a chaotic mess.
Kapak: Mines are for defending a position when you are entrenched and fortified. You do not plant mines when you are planning to cross that field, and you certainly do not place mines while you are planning to cross that field.
Bozak: The commander of your unit, who is generally in the middle-back of them barking orders explodes with an unlucky arrow shot. Whether unit commander or line soldier, they are the worst liability of the dragonarmies of any other type of draconian.
Sivak: These guys might have actually got it right with the death throes. It is harmless to friendly troops, and I can see the argument that people will flee the battle if they see their dead littering the battlefield. Of course, given that sivaks are pretty rare I imagine that the effect was pretty negligible. Might have worked better if it was a Kapak or Baaz trait.
Aurak: If one of these guys die, you might lose an entire wing of your army. First they go berserk for a few minutes tearing into you, then they blow up doing obsene lightning damage. Strokes of lightning that burn through your own ranks like a hot knife through butter. The only real option is to send them on solo missions only, or promote them off the battlefield.
Further, I believe the aurak's death throe has been changed to a single explosion, but don't quote me on that.
And besides, protection from arrows is a really low level spell. Chances are, if you manage to drag down an aurak, who all stand in the back anyway, that you're doing it in melee. Which means that, more than likely, the entire rest of the Dragonarmy must already be thoroughly boned. So even with the death throe you describe, no dracos would be killed. It would be a completely spiteful ability. "You may have beat us, but I'm going to make you pay for it.
And the problem you describe with baaz tactics assume they aren't USED to maneuvering around suddenly statuesque comrades. And besides, statues make good cover when everything descends into melee.
Originally posted by ferratus
So if you send only dragonspawn out, naked, and throw them against the enemy, then yes it makes sense.
Actually...just as a point of interest...I've always pictured dragonspawn as naked...using only natural weapons. I guess I've always pictured them as much more bestial than draconians. But it doesn't seem like any sources agree with each other on what exactly dragonspawn are or look like. Or how they fight.
So if you send only dragonspawn out, naked, and throw them against the enemy, then yes it makes sense.
seriously. Read the novels, that's how they're used. Besides, spawn were never intended to be used for mass warfare. That's what the overlords made deals with the Knights of Takhisis for. And besides, with an army all assembled in one place, the overlord could just put in an appearance herself, and annihilate them all.
No, Dragonspawn were intended to be used in groups of 4 or 5, to run errands and take care of things the overlord herself could not be bothered with, namely, dispatching small adventuring parties.
They took too much time to produce to be effective as an army.
Also, to talk about the Baaz once more, they definitely DON'T use shieldwall tactics. They use pure melee skill, numbers, and drunken chaos to intimidate and overwhelm their opponents in a pure melee rush.
And I was right. Auraks just explode now. Plain and simple.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Actually...just as a point of interest...I've always pictured dragonspawn as naked...using only natural weapons. I guess I've always pictured them as much more bestial than draconians.
I've always pictured them as "Dragon Knights" myself, humans with the strength of dragons.
But it doesn't seem like any sources agree with each other on what exactly dragonspawn are or look like. Or how they fight.
Because nobody thinks it through, frankly. The same with draconians.
Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
Also, to talk about the Baaz once more, they definitely DON'T use shieldwall tactics. They use pure melee skill, numbers, and drunken chaos to intimidate and overwhelm their opponents in a pure melee rush.
Well, that would explain why they were cut to peices by dwarven soldiers, elven archers and Solamnic calvary.
I think it is safe to say that the Draconians were a complete and utter military failure. Badly trained, hastily equipped, and their death throes do as much damage to their own forces as that of their enemies. Even Baaz, who just turn to stone, are really a bad idea. Sure your enemies might lose one of their weapons, but when your buddy turns to stone in front of you, you either have to plow into the soldiers beside you to get around him, or you get smashed into him by the press of bodies moving behind you. If he turns to stone beside you, you keep moving forward and your ranks are broken.
If I was a Drac, I'd get out of the military business as quickly as I could. Now I can see new roles where they would be useful, which is preying on adventurers.
Auraks and Bozaks: These guys have it made. As powerful sorcerers they could carve out their own tiny kingdoms wherever they wish, whether in the underworld or in the wilderness. Sure you might explode when you die, but as long as you don't have any draconian minions to endanger your own health, what do you care? Plus, it is a nice little threat to keep potential usurpers and assassins at bay.
Sivaks: Easy one. Assassins and infiltrators supreme. They would also make excellent thieves and con artists.
Kapaks and Baaz: Splinter into small bands, and carry on with banditry. With banditry your forces can be spread out, and you are largely dealing with ambushing and intimidating your foes rather than engaging them in mass battle.
I've always pictured them as "Dragon Knights" myself, humans with the strength of dragons.
Every source I've ever seen has them looking like more draconic draconians. Which makes sense, considering how they're created. Like I said, the human is just raw material.
Sure your enemies might lose one of their weapons, but when your buddy turns to stone in front of you, you either have to plow into the soldiers beside you to get around him, or you get smashed into him by the press of bodies moving behind you. If he turns to stone beside you, you keep moving forward and your ranks are broken.
Umm. No. You forgot the option that is suddenly open to you when you're light-boned and have wings: Jump up on top of the statue, stab the guy who killed it in the face from above, and continue forward.
This would even work with a shieldwall tactic, really. If the guy in front of you turns to stone, jump over him, stab his now-weaponless killer, and fill in the gap. Done. But they never really thought about it.
Honestly,the Highlords didn't bother to train the baaz. Their sheer numbers were enough that they could be thrown out as cannon fodder. Thus why they didn't worry about a few baaz being blown up by an exploding bozak. Who cares?
The other breeds were the ones that required training. Sivaks served well as Aerial cavalry, a position that the good armies had little defense against, until the dragons showed up, and as infiltrators, which was quite nice.
Kapaks served as assassins, with their natural stealth and poison.
Auraks and Bozaks served as generals and commanders, and were far more skilled than their rather moronic baaz counterparts.
However, once Kang had time to actually train his dracos, they fought a lot better. But they were hardly an army, numbers-wise at that point.
Though now that Teyr is growing steadily, populated by better-trained dracos...I would be terrified to see an army they fielded, especially with how naturally defensible that city is.
They did manage to turn the Knights of Takhisis back, after all.