Cam, sorry bud, your theory is very interesting but Wizard's Conclave contradicts you.
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Okay, in Wizard's conclave it says the following on page 51:
"Of course, he had dabbled in the wild sorcery, even learned some of the art of necromancy..."
It continues on saying that Dalamar considered this to be a pale imitation of High Sorcery, and was even blasphemous.
So Dalamar was, indeed, a sorcerer. The contradiction comes into play with necromancy, as that was one of the spheres of mysticism. I doubt Dalamar was a mystic at all - he just wasn't the spiritual type.
The spheres of mysticism was a teaching taught at the Citadel of Light. The Skull Knights, of course, picked up on the arts of necromancy in their magic.
Instead, I propose it was one of two lines of thought. First, perhaps Dalamar was just a sorcerer whose spells came from the PHB school of necromancy. Perhaps Dalamar had different views than Palin Majere on how sorcery worked, and so tapped into necromantic spells based on his own theories, which in turn were based on his understanding of magic as a Black Robe.
Second line of thought would be that Dalamar had some sort of necromancer prestige class, Perhaps it gives the sorcerer in question bonus spells from the necromancy domain (without the domain power), as well as other dark abilities.
Of course, I'd now like to see a variant set of stats on Dalamar where he is a wizard/WoHS specialized in the school of necromancy. I'm sure that's not very accurate. Call it my inner munchkin. ;)
Thoughts?
However, when the gods of magic returned, Dalamar accepted the offer of his power back, and as examplified in the DLCS, transformed his sorcerer levels back into wizard and WoHS levels. This is evidenced by his own choice and acceptance of 'worship' to Nuitari again, and his stats in the Age of Mortals book. Palin is still listed as a sorcerer because he did not accept his magic back, and so would not bother changing his class levels.
So, I'm not really sure where the argument is here. It seems fairly obvious that Dalamar was a wizard, then a sorcerer, and now a wizard again. Am I missing something?
Originally posted by Karui_Kage
So, I'm not really sure where the argument is here. It seems fairly obvious that Dalamar was a wizard, then a sorcerer, and now a wizard again. Am I missing something?
Dragonhelm's just shooting down one of my pet theories, that's all.
Cheers,
Cam
"...Yet she taught magic to us, sorcery to me, and necromancy to you."
Which I thought indicated two different things.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Dragonhelm's just shooting down one of my pet theories, that's all.
:embarrass
Sorry about that, man.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
When is the book out?
It just came out. I'm already 70 pages into it, and loving it.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
and the Title is Wizard's Conclave?
Yes.
BTW, it occurred to me that necromancy can still be something different from wild sorcery, phrased as it was in the books.
Seems there's still some mystery.
Also, my apologies to Cam if I came across wrong above. I didn't mean it as "I'm going to poke a hole in your theory". Just meant that as "Here's what this novel said regarding our recent discussion."
Stupid internet.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
BTW, it occurred to me that necromancy can still be something different from wild sorcery, phrased as it was in the books.
From the sounds of it, Dalamar had an A code in Reason and a B code in Spirit, to use SAGA terms. In SAGA, sorcery and mysticism were just aspects of a character sheet, not exclusive talents available only to certain character classes (since they didn't exist in SAGA).
Ultimately, however, necromancy has always been a wizard thing in novels and games. SAGA was just weird to lump it in with mysticism, and this has undoubtedly led to much confusion on the part of later writers.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ultimately, however, necromancy has always been a wizard thing in novels and games.
Like 'Bob the necromancer'. ;)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ultimately, however, necromancy has always been a wizard thing in novels and games. SAGA was just weird to lump it in with mysticism, and this has undoubtedly led to much confusion on the part of later writers.
Personally, I don't think it was weird at all to have necromancy as part of mysticism, since when I think of these types of things, you're talking about priests and stuff that like usually.
See that group of guys worshipping Chemosh in Divine Hammer as a good example.
Dalamar, in the end, probably did whatever it took to remain powerful or to have magic of any kind.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
According to Amazon the book is not yet published.
Amazon should pay a visit to my local bookstore then. Wizards' Conclave is most definitely out. Good book too.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Amazon should pay a visit to my local bookstore then. Wizards' Conclave is most definitely out. Good book too.
Amazon's often a little late to get new books, which is one of the downsides of shopping online for book retailers with discounts. One of the benefits of shopping at your local bookstore like Dragonhelm does is that you quite often get the book before many other people do!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Will sorcerers now be considered renegades by the orders?>
Given that the novel opens with the three gods of magic declaring wild sorcery an abomination and recreating the Orders specifically to deal with it, I'm inclined to guess yes.
Matthew L. Martin
Eh Coryn leaves a bit of bad taste in my mouth, (why couldn't she just be 4 or 5 years older?), since she becomes the youngest person ever to pass the test, beating Raistlin's record.
HOWEVER, the book has plenty of high points and in the end I'm pleased. The orders are reestablished, they have their tower back, and things can start moving forward. Also we finally have a difinitive answer for the Wizards vs Sorcerers debate. Sorcerers are renegades, PERIOD.
Also my new favorite black robe is Willim the Black.
Originally posted by Nived
Eh Coryn leaves a bit of bad taste in my mouth, (why couldn't she just be 4 or 5 years older?), since she becomes the youngest person ever to pass the test, beating Raistlin's record.
I would say that people taking the Test at a younger age than they used to would, atleast for awhile, become a common practice, as the Orders will want to swell their ranks as fast as possible.
Either way, the Orders in generally should be a very inexperienced lot for awhile.
Originally posted by Nived
since she becomes the youngest person ever to pass the test, beating Raistlin's record.
Except that Palin beat it nearly forty years before that...
I do agree though, she was just a tad too young.
I cant believe that this nobody won not only the White Robes at such a young age as well as being made head of the Conclave.
SPOILERS, as there always are AVERT THINE EYES!
Coryn is thankfully NOT made head of the conclave, btw.
Originally posted by raistlinrox
I forget which book, the DLCS or the AoM, but it states that Dalamar was taught Necromancy by the Shadow Sorcerer, which would indicate that it is, in fact, an aspect of sorcery. Which is also the same powers that Nephara, the wife of the Minotaur emporer, possess. I think it was just a very focused learning/use of magic, namely necromancy spells.
Nephera is a mystic, whereas Dalamar dabbled in wild sorcery. Two different types of magic completely.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Nephera is a mystic, whereas Dalamar dabbled in wild sorcery. Two different types of magic completely.
But isn't necromancy a sphere of mysticism?
Originally posted by silvanthalas
But isn't necromancy a sphere of mysticism?
It is, and in 3e it's a domain.
However, it seems that War of Souls and Wizards' Conclave has set it up to where Dalamar toyed with necromancy, yet he was using Wild Sorcery. Yes, a retcon. ;)
My theory is that Wild Sorcery, as seen in SAGA, is mainly the teachings of the Academy of Sorcery and that there are other teachings out there. I believe that Dalamar learned to use Wild Sorcery so that he could cast spells from the (wizard) school of necromancy. Add to that the undead battery feat, and you have necromancy.
I really think that in my games I am going to consider the use of necromancy by Dalamar as seen in WoS as use of the Undead Battery feat. TO me it just makes sense.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
arent wild sorcery and primal sorcerey the same thing?
Yes. Two names for the same thing. For example, the DLCS and AoM use primal sorcery. Doug Niles uses wild sorcery.
Personally, I prefer the term wild sorcery. For one, I've used it longer. For another, it exemplifies that sorcery is wild magic.
The term primal sorcery makes me think of dinosaurs and the primordial ooze for some reason. lol
So really, both terms are correct. WotC and Sovereign Press have used both terms themselves. Just whichever floats your boat.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It is, and in 3e it's a domain.
More importantly, it's a 3rd edition D&D school of magic. That's the basis for its use most of the time in D&D products, as its existence as an element of mysticism or divine spellcasting is more or less limited to Dragonlance.
Cheers,
Cam
When Chaos was released from the Graygem by the Irda in Dragons of Summer Flame, it made wild magic available again to mortals. This time it looks a lot more permanent, although its effects were weakened in the early Age of Mortals because Takhisis' river of souls was leeching it from those who could use it.
It's important to note that some creatures have always been able to use the magic of Krynn without Chaos' influence or the moons, such as dragons and faerie folk. These creatures aren't wild mages, but their magic resembles it strongly.
Cheers,
Cam