Gore attack - monk minotaur - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Gore attack - monk minotaur

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 29, 2004 16:02:23 Hello,

i have some question about the minotaur gore attack ...

first question: the minotaur can allways use it's "FREE" gore attack in a full round attack action ? I found it very powerfull... (i free attack ad -5 of the max bab it not too bad ;) )

2: when a monk minotaur use the FoB attack, can a monk include the gore attack in the flurry of blow (yes... i presume ). but, how many damage the gore attack deal? 1d6+1/2str or the monk unarmed damage (1dX + str ) ?

bye
#2
sweetmeats
Jun 29, 2004 16:57:41 To my knowledge, the gore attack is in addition to the regular attack/s, so you wouldn't include it in the FoB.
#3
shnik
Jun 29, 2004 17:14:20 The gore attack is a natural attack, not an unarmed attack, so the minotaur can't use it as part of a FoB.
#4
darthsylver
Jun 29, 2004 21:45:44 First: This is the type of a decision that should be made by the DM. If you are the DM and are asking for opinions, here's mine.

1: The gore from my standpoint is not a free attack. It is an attack that can be used as either a primary or secondary attack as part of a full-attack-action.

2: The gore attack is a natural attack, just as the Unarmed is for a monk. Remember the Monk is never considered unarmed, his hands and legs are weapons just as a Minotaur's Gore Attack. Therefore it can be used with Flurry-of-Blows.

3: Should the gore be used in conjunction with a FoB then it would be subject to the same penalties, just as an Attack-of-opportunity would be.

4: Damage for a gore attack would use it's normal damage, just as a Monk weapon does its normal damage when used in a FoB.

Well that's about it for my two cents. Hope it helps you.
#5
cam_banks
Jun 29, 2004 22:44:56 A minotaur's gore attack is considered a primary natural weapon. As such, it can be used as part of a full attack or by itself. Natural weapons do not gain additional attacks from a base attack bonus of +6 or more, and when used in conjunction with a melee weapon the minotaur's gore attack is considered secondary (-5 to attack rolls).

Monks cannot use natural weapons as part of a flurry of blows, only unarmed strikes (which the gore is not) or special monk weapons (which the gore is not). A monk could, as a full attack, make an unarmed strike at his full attack bonus and a gore attack at his attack bonus -5, but not a flurry of blows and a gore attack.

Savage Species notes that a monk with natural weapons can use either his monk unarmed damage or his natural weapon damage, whichever his higher, when attacking with his monk unarmed attack bonus, but this is a 3.0 ruling. In 3.5, monks don't have a separate unarmed attack bonus, and flurry of blows works differently, hence the above rules.

Cheers,
Cam
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 3:14:44 It's entirely feasible to come up with some kind of minotaur monk prestige class which allows the use of their natural weapons as part of their normal attack/flurry of blows, possibly increasing damage die for them as well over levels. I imagine there'd be a lot of things in it about grappling, although I shamefully admit I don't have the patience to craft it out any better than that at the moment.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 4:27:20 A minotaur pc with bab +8/+3 makes a full attack and use the additional gore attack, does he make three attack at +8/+3/+3(gore)?

thanks
#8
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 4:36:31 No. He gains the gore attack as *secondary*. That means second.

A minotaur can attack with a weapon at his normal attack bonus and make a gore attack as a secondary attack.

Normally, the weapon at +3 would be the secondary attack. You can elect to use horns instead.
#9
cam_banks
Jun 30, 2004 4:57:30
Originally posted by pddisc
No. He gains the gore attack as *secondary*. That means second.

Normally, the weapon at +3 would be the secondary attack. You can elect to use horns instead.

Actually, he's right - the character would gain both iterative attacks with his manufactured weapon, and an additional (hence secondary) attack with his gore attack. The gore attack is at -5, and can be taken regardless of whether the minotaur has a high enough BAB that he gets a second attack with his manufactured weapon. A 1st level minotaur fighter, for example, can attack with his sword and his gore attack as a full attack action.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 5:15:14
Actually, he's right - the character would gain both iterative attacks with his manufactured weapon, and an additional (hence secondary) attack with his gore attack. The gore attack is at -5, and can be taken regardless of whether the minotaur has a high enough BAB that he gets a second attack with his manufactured weapon. A 1st level minotaur fighter, for example, can attack with his sword and his gore attack as a full attack action.

What?! That's ridiculous! Not only are the horns going to be more difficult to use in hand to hand combat (outside of a charge attack) against most normal sized opponents, but why do they get to use them as well as any other attack? No one else gets to use an extra attack, even if they're happily proficient. Using the example of the monk - their attacks aren't considered to be just hand based, but feet, elbows, foreheads, knees... the minotaur get a whole free attack? A minotaur monk would (in theory, rather than by the rules, which are usually lacking) just use their horns as part of this monk attack, and far more feasibly than just attacking normally *plus* a bonus attack.
#11
cam_banks
Jun 30, 2004 5:41:22
Originally posted by pddisc
What?! That's ridiculous! Not only are the horns going to be more difficult to use in hand to hand combat (outside of a charge attack) against most normal sized opponents, but why do they get to use them as well as any other attack? No one else gets to use an extra attack, even if they're happily proficient. Using the example of the monk - their attacks aren't considered to be just hand based, but feet, elbows, foreheads, knees... the minotaur get a whole free attack?

Yep, they sure do. In fact, check out the minotaur of Krynn entry on p226 of the DLCS. He gets his gore attack as part of his full attack and his base attack bonus is only +1.

The minotaur's gore attack is a natural weapon, which is something most races don't have. A monk's unarmed strikes aren't the same thing. The centaur has a hoof attack, which is very similar (-5 to attack, used as a secondary weapon when using a melee weapon). Compare this also to the satyr in the Monster Manual which gets a head butt as well as its melee attack, or the hybrid form of the wereboar in the MM that gets a gore attack and a melee weapon.

Cheers,
Cam
#12
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 7:37:45 Cam, dont you find the gore attack too unbalancing?

As i supposed, in a full round attack, the gore attack become a "free" attack... i think it's too powerfull for a race with no level adjustament....

bye
#13
cam_banks
Jun 30, 2004 7:47:04
Originally posted by fiz.ban
Cam, dont you find the gore attack too unbalancing?

As i supposed, in a full round attack, the gore attack become a "free" attack... i think it's too powerfull for a race with no level adjustament....

It's certainly nice to have. Do note that it's at a fairly steep penalty, one that can't be bought off with a feat like Two-Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot. Also, only half of the minotaur's Strength bonus applies to it if it's used as a secondary attack, so it's not as dangerous as it would otherwise be. Plus, it's a piercing attack, can't be used to sunder, makes a lousy choice for attacks of opportunity, and (depending on your DM's ruling) can't be used for a trip or disarm attempt. All of these are things you can do with melee or unarmed strikes, so there are some downsides to it.

About the only useful thing beyond the additional attack a minotaur gets with his gore is that druids can cast magic fang on the minotaur to give his gore attack an enhancement bonus. A gore attack becomes practically useless at higher levels, though, when characters have magic weapons and creatures have various kinds of damage reduction and invulnerabilities that a gore attack can't do anything to.

Cheers,
Cam
#14
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 7:55:14 ok. thanks for your answers

Now i know a little more about gorge attack ;9

bye

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2004 16:02:23	Hello, i have some question about the minotaur gore attack ... first question: the minotaur can allways use it's "FREE" gore attack in a full round attack action ? I found it very powerfull... (i free attack ad -5 of the max bab it not too bad ;) ) 2: when a monk minotaur use the FoB attack, can a monk include the gore attack in the flurry of blow (yes... i presume ). but, how many damage the gore attack deal? 1d6+1/2str or the monk unarmed damage (1dX + str ) ? bye
#2 sweetmeats Jun 29, 2004 16:57:41	To my knowledge, the gore attack is in addition to the regular attack/s, so you wouldn't include it in the FoB.
#3 shnik Jun 29, 2004 17:14:20	The gore attack is a natural attack, not an unarmed attack, so the minotaur can't use it as part of a FoB.
#4 darthsylver Jun 29, 2004 21:45:44	First: This is the type of a decision that should be made by the DM. If you are the DM and are asking for opinions, here's mine. 1: The gore from my standpoint is not a free attack. It is an attack that can be used as either a primary or secondary attack as part of a full-attack-action. 2: The gore attack is a natural attack, just as the Unarmed is for a monk. Remember the Monk is never considered unarmed, his hands and legs are weapons just as a Minotaur's Gore Attack. Therefore it can be used with Flurry-of-Blows. 3: Should the gore be used in conjunction with a FoB then it would be subject to the same penalties, just as an Attack-of-opportunity would be. 4: Damage for a gore attack would use it's normal damage, just as a Monk weapon does its normal damage when used in a FoB. Well that's about it for my two cents. Hope it helps you.
#5 cam_banks Jun 29, 2004 22:44:56	A minotaur's gore attack is considered a primary natural weapon. As such, it can be used as part of a full attack or by itself. Natural weapons do not gain additional attacks from a base attack bonus of +6 or more, and when used in conjunction with a melee weapon the minotaur's gore attack is considered secondary (-5 to attack rolls). Monks cannot use natural weapons as part of a flurry of blows, only unarmed strikes (which the gore is not) or special monk weapons (which the gore is not). A monk could, as a full attack, make an unarmed strike at his full attack bonus and a gore attack at his attack bonus -5, but not a flurry of blows and a gore attack. Savage Species notes that a monk with natural weapons can use either his monk unarmed damage or his natural weapon damage, whichever his higher, when attacking with his monk unarmed attack bonus, but this is a 3.0 ruling. In 3.5, monks don't have a separate unarmed attack bonus, and flurry of blows works differently, hence the above rules. Cheers, Cam
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 3:14:44	It's entirely feasible to come up with some kind of minotaur monk prestige class which allows the use of their natural weapons as part of their normal attack/flurry of blows, possibly increasing damage die for them as well over levels. I imagine there'd be a lot of things in it about grappling, although I shamefully admit I don't have the patience to craft it out any better than that at the moment.
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 4:27:20	A minotaur pc with bab +8/+3 makes a full attack and use the additional gore attack, does he make three attack at +8/+3/+3(gore)? thanks
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 4:36:31	No. He gains the gore attack as secondary. That means second. A minotaur can attack with a weapon at his normal attack bonus and make a gore attack as a secondary attack. Normally, the weapon at +3 would be the secondary attack. You can elect to use horns instead.
#9 cam_banks Jun 30, 2004 4:57:30	Originally posted by pddisc No. He gains the gore attack as secondary. That means second. Normally, the weapon at +3 would be the secondary attack. You can elect to use horns instead. Actually, he's right - the character would gain both iterative attacks with his manufactured weapon, and an additional (hence secondary) attack with his gore attack. The gore attack is at -5, and can be taken regardless of whether the minotaur has a high enough BAB that he gets a second attack with his manufactured weapon. A 1st level minotaur fighter, for example, can attack with his sword and his gore attack as a full attack action. Cheers, Cam
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 5:15:14	Actually, he's right - the character would gain both iterative attacks with his manufactured weapon, and an additional (hence secondary) attack with his gore attack. The gore attack is at -5, and can be taken regardless of whether the minotaur has a high enough BAB that he gets a second attack with his manufactured weapon. A 1st level minotaur fighter, for example, can attack with his sword and his gore attack as a full attack action. What?! That's ridiculous! Not only are the horns going to be more difficult to use in hand to hand combat (outside of a charge attack) against most normal sized opponents, but why do they get to use them as well as any other attack? No one else gets to use an extra attack, even if they're happily proficient. Using the example of the monk - their attacks aren't considered to be just hand based, but feet, elbows, foreheads, knees... the minotaur get a whole free attack? A minotaur monk would (in theory, rather than by the rules, which are usually lacking) just use their horns as part of this monk attack, and far more feasibly than just attacking normally plus a bonus attack.
#11 cam_banks Jun 30, 2004 5:41:22	Originally posted by pddisc What?! That's ridiculous! Not only are the horns going to be more difficult to use in hand to hand combat (outside of a charge attack) against most normal sized opponents, but why do they get to use them as well as any other attack? No one else gets to use an extra attack, even if they're happily proficient. Using the example of the monk - their attacks aren't considered to be just hand based, but feet, elbows, foreheads, knees... the minotaur get a whole free attack? Yep, they sure do. In fact, check out the minotaur of Krynn entry on p226 of the DLCS. He gets his gore attack as part of his full attack and his base attack bonus is only +1. The minotaur's gore attack is a natural weapon, which is something most races don't have. A monk's unarmed strikes aren't the same thing. The centaur has a hoof attack, which is very similar (-5 to attack, used as a secondary weapon when using a melee weapon). Compare this also to the satyr in the Monster Manual which gets a head butt as well as its melee attack, or the hybrid form of the wereboar in the MM that gets a gore attack and a melee weapon. Cheers, Cam
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 7:37:45	Cam, dont you find the gore attack too unbalancing? As i supposed, in a full round attack, the gore attack become a "free" attack... i think it's too powerfull for a race with no level adjustament.... bye
#13 cam_banks Jun 30, 2004 7:47:04	Originally posted by fiz.ban Cam, dont you find the gore attack too unbalancing? As i supposed, in a full round attack, the gore attack become a "free" attack... i think it's too powerfull for a race with no level adjustament.... It's certainly nice to have. Do note that it's at a fairly steep penalty, one that can't be bought off with a feat like Two-Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot. Also, only half of the minotaur's Strength bonus applies to it if it's used as a secondary attack, so it's not as dangerous as it would otherwise be. Plus, it's a piercing attack, can't be used to sunder, makes a lousy choice for attacks of opportunity, and (depending on your DM's ruling) can't be used for a trip or disarm attempt. All of these are things you can do with melee or unarmed strikes, so there are some downsides to it. About the only useful thing beyond the additional attack a minotaur gets with his gore is that druids can cast magic fang on the minotaur to give his gore attack an enhancement bonus. A gore attack becomes practically useless at higher levels, though, when characters have magic weapons and creatures have various kinds of damage reduction and invulnerabilities that a gore attack can't do anything to. Cheers, Cam
#14 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 7:55:14	ok. thanks for your answers Now i know a little more about gorge attack ;9 bye