Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 04, 2004 14:23:51	I must admit i've sometimes been jealous (when i was younger) of all the FR supplements, books and extensions i didn't even want to touch at the shop. Because the ones for greyhawk were so few, the artwork was so inactractive, and the contents was hazardous. Sometimes fabulous sometimes catastrophique ( nearly as bad as a FR module). BUT today, when i look at the results, i really think TSR/WOTC choices have tremendously been GOOD for Greyhawk. Because, and that is the point where i would like to hear your opinion, if the World of greyhawk have been marketed, sold, and transformed to become a FR clone, nothing could have been worst. I think the old time players would have been disguted to see their cherished and original campaign world disfigured, and some would even have stopped to play. And the new ones would never have the opportunity to taste at the WoG unique and original flavor. Too much money for greyhawk would have killed the greyhawk i love and i am sure lot of you love. Greyhawk is still the same, and will forever remain i think, and that's its chance. Few and high qualities (like Maure castle)products are all it needs, as well as the thousands of players who are producing and writting what we can find on internet. Everything has been done to "kill" WoG, really. And it is still alive. And i think WoG will even bury all the other "campaign world", because the wizards who created greyhawk casted a spell of permanancy on it.
#2 Mortepierre Jul 05, 2004 7:01:08	Originally posted by makoma BUT today, when i look at the results, i really think TSR/WOTC choices have tremendously been GOOD for Greyhawk. Because, and that is the point where i would like to hear your opinion, if the World of greyhawk have been marketed, sold, and transformed to become a FR clone, nothing could have been worst. I think not. I doubt such a simplistic solution as turning a setting into a FR clone would make it sell more. That would destroy the setting's flavor and even those running Hasbro are clever enough to know it. Actually, the very thought makes me laugh. Can you imagine an editor going over it this way? "Hmm, I'll convert Philidor into the Chosen of Boccob, and while I am it all the members of the Co8 too. Rary will be the leader of the Cult of Dragotha, being an ex-Chosen turned bad. The members of the Silent Ones of Keoland will all wear red robe, shave their heads and start calling themselves the Red Silent Wizards. All councilmen of Greyhawk, save one, will now wear mask. Oh, and people will discover that the entire Castle Greyhawk has been teleported beneath the city of the same name, thereby creating the world's greatest dungeon. We'll call it Undercity." :D What I wish had been done is Carl S. writing more gazetteers for GH, whether or not the art was atrocious.
#3 itrainedyoda Jul 05, 2004 9:38:21	Makoma, when I began to read your post I totally identified with what you were saying. Back in the 2nd Edition days I felt like Greyhawk was the adult's campaign world and FR was for munchkins. I was resentful over how much material was cranked out to support FR and other short-lived worlds like Dark Sun and Al-Qadim. Of course, some real gems were also introduced and not supported like Birthright. But Gygax's Greyhawk was the Holy Land for me, and any tampering with it by Greenwood's legion of imitators made my stomach turn. Carl Sargent is a worthy successor for Gygax, but once again Greyhawk was never given an honest chance because there was nowhere near the financial support that FR got all along. Back in '98 I used up a couple ink cartridges printing off the PDF file "Ivid the Undying" because TSR decided it wasn't worth publishing in book form. It is fantastic stuff, and I can only imagine the disappointment and disillusionment that Mr. Sargent had to have felt when all his work was dumped so TSR could put out another "Volo's Guide to Uranus". WotC has opted to "resurrect" Greyhawk as the default campaign setting for 3E. This is done as a tribute to the world that gave many players their first taste of fantasy. Pardon me as I spit on the floor. What an insult. But I realize I'm in the minority, and the market demands certain products over others. I play FR now because; #1 it is supported, #2 the Greyhawk of Today is a mockery of what it once was and #3 (big surprise) none of my players even know what Greyhawk is about because there's nothing out there but junk now. Greyhawk will never be a FR clone because WotC would never put the effort into cleaning up the mess that came to be after Gygax lost creative control. Publishing such tripe as "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" is probably as bad as things can get. If you want a good idea of how much effort is put into Greyhawk vs. FR get a copy of Dungeon #87. Compare the adventures "The Raiders of Galath's Roost" and "The Cradle of Madness". Boy, I need to seek some therapy for this....
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 05, 2004 10:36:47	Originally posted by Mortepierre I think not. I doubt such a simplistic solution as turning a setting into a FR clone would make it sell more. That would destroy the setting's flavor and even those running Hasbro are clever enough to know it. Mortepierre,I fear my post wasn't clear. I absolutely think the same thing than you. I am even ashame that you may think what you apparently understood of my post. But for the rest of your post, i don't understand your mockery, when i spoke of a FR clone, i didn't mean to copy FR, of course it's total nonsense. I just spoke about the commercial way TSR sold FR for 20 years now, with surproduction of useless materials. This would have been worst for WoG than what happened, IMHO. that's all i meant. ANd About those running hasbro i doubt they even know what is the world of greyhawk... They don't spend a penny for it. About your post "Itrainedyoda", i understand what you feel. But i deeply regret your decision, what you lived with greyhawk 5, 10, 20 years ago, you can still live it today. And your new players who don't even know this world, what a challenge to let them play T1-T4, or roam in the city of greyhawk, or explore the depths of the nyr dyv,. I hope adventure like maure castle or the future greyhawk maps may re-examine your decision, really. Greyhawk needs Dm like you, playing in FR is like giving caviar to pigs.
#5 mortellan Jul 05, 2004 11:25:06	If you want a good idea of how much effort is put into Greyhawk vs. FR get a copy of Dungeon #87. I'm sure that was true back then, but Dungeon mods are submitted by freelancers and approved by editors who may have their own preferences. Dungeon of today is clearly pro-Greyhawk and it's better now than its ever been.
#6 Mortepierre Jul 05, 2004 11:59:26	Ah, no Makoma. I fear it is I who was less than crystal clear. Actually, I do agree with you on some points. Mainly that turning GH in a FR clone would have been doing a disservice to our beloved setting. The joke I included wasn’t random FR bashing but rather a light-hearted attempt to imagine what a guy who has no clue as to what makes a setting “special” would do if he decided to apply to GH the same kind of marketing formula as was used on FR. On the other hand, I do disagree with you about the “Too much money for greyhawk would have killed the greyhawk i love and i am sure lot of you love” part. Why? Because if they had continued to pump money in the setting, maybe - just maybe - great guys like Carl Sargent could have continued to produce quality accessories to usher GH into the next era. Yes, I loved the Rob/Gary era like everyone else but I am not part of the gang that believes anything that came afterward is just garbage. Certainly, some things were but not all. At least not in the “let’s flesh out the setting” category of accessory. If worst had come to pass and we had been buried by dozens of mediocre accessories, we would just have had to do what true FR fans have done: take what works for us and dump the rest. But, hey, that’s just me...