Authority Figures:
The Lady of Pain (LN female, unknown race)
Arwal Swan's Son, leader of the Sons of Mercy (LG male human, paladin 12)
Rhys, member of the Sigil Advisory Council (N female, tiefling fighter 2/wizard 15)
Shemeska the Marauder a.k.a. King of the Cross-Trade, information broker (NE female arcanaloth)
I don't agree with the L part of Her Serenity's alignment, but everything else is pretty kosher. I'm just happy that my namesake got mentioned as a power in the city. Muahahaha!
"And there, says I'm female. See! It was a typo listing me as male in 'Faces of Sigil'."
Wow, someone's being paid attention to.
Anyway, that's essentially the situation at the end of Faction War.
Except the Lady of Pain isn't necessarily LN, or female, or a member of a race.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
They even spell Shemeska without the second "sh"?
Wow, someone's being paid attention to.
*blink* They did?! The pre-print material I read included the second sh. If they left it out I'm going out drinking.
Shemeshka the Marauder. I take it the second sh is bad? or good...or?
also, check your PMs.
Originally posted by Uratoh
oh, sorry...heres how its spelled in the PlanHB:
Shemeshka the Marauder. I take it the second sh is bad? or good...or?
also, check your PMs.
It's a long story
Originally posted by sciborg2
do they even try to explain why the LoP is LN?
I don't have the book itself yet. The less explanation the better to be honest.
- ultrapowerful, possibly a diety, but noone knows since she doesnt allow worshipers.
- with a mere glance, she can cause people to sprout wounds and bleed like a fountain.
- get on her bad side and you're banished to an extraplanar maze where you can die of starvation or old age searching for the single hidden exit.
- the lady somehow keeps dieties and similarly powered beings from entering the Cage, so a coup isnt really an option.
Originally posted by Uratoh
- get on her bad side and you're banished to an extraplanar maze where you can die of starvation or old age searching for the single hidden exit.
Ah yes, one of the contradictions I'd noticed. You can't die of old age in the mazes. You don't age at all. Or at least Vartus Timlin didn't age at all when he escaped from his maze.
We're seeing the same amount of respect as we saw with DVD and Guide to Hell.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
I think it's safe to say that Planescape is going to only get half-ass treatment with the current designers, and to just get used to their messing with things constantly -- which just means they're going to sell a few fewer books.
I'm going to give the book a chance before I come to any judgements. A few thrown out comments about the Lady's lawfulness or non-timeless Mazes aren't going to get rid of me that easily. It might be generally great.
It sounds like the spirit of the thing is intact. They're being shockingly restrained by WotC standards.
Originally posted by Uratoh
Rhys, member of the Sigil Advisory Council (N female, tiefling fighter 2/wizard 15)
The factol of the Transcendant Order doesn't have any levels in Cipher Adept? o.O
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
I'm going to give the book a chance before I come to any judgements. A few thrown out comments about the Lady's lawfulness or non-timeless Mazes aren't going to get rid of me that easily. It might be generally great.
It sounds like the spirit of the thing is intact. They're being shockingly restrained by WotC standards.
I'm not saying that the rest of the book won't be fine and dandy, and I'm still going to wait and see for myself before I decide whether or not to buy it, but the slow, steady pecking away at the Planescape concepts is a bit annoying. Next they'll say that nobody in Sigil has heard the word 'berk' before.
What's worse, there's nothing obvious to GAIN from some of the changes.
on: Yet another dose of idiocy from the "designers" and "writers" currently putting out D&D products from WotC. Almost makes me miss T$R. I'm just a man, why must they torture me and toy with my beliefs? If the "designers" who are writing the new material that involves PS don't like PS, they shouldn't write about PS. They should leave well enough alone, those 
.Well, I feel better.
Interesting thing about prestiege classes based on organization is THE member as it were rarely has/needs to have levels in them, because they epitomify the class already and the class is an 'emulation' of what they are.
I would really like to understand their justification for giving The Lady an alignment of LN, but that won't deter me from viewing the book.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Ah yes, one of the contradictions I'd noticed. You can't die of old age in the mazes. You don't age at all. Or at least Vartus Timlin didn't age at all when he escaped from his maze.
Not necessarily a contradiction. Maybe his maze was special. Maybe some of Her Serenity's mazes have the timeless trait. Wait, does that work? I forget, when you leave a plane (or demi-plane) with the timeless trait, doesn't time catch up to you? Like if you were 20 when you went in and were stuck there for 100 years, when you came out would you age to 120 instantly?
Well, anyway, no reason to assume that the Lady's mazes always have the same metaphysical properties. Maybe some mazes are special or maybe they are all random or even (scary thought) maybe they are all taylor designed for each individual that gets mazed.
Please realize that the majority of D&D players have never heard of Planescape which is a brand that hasn't published a product in many years. The Planar Handbook is going to change that. Some people that read it will become intrigued with the planes and will seek out more of the good stuff. If enough people buy it then Wizards will see the value of the Planescape properties and will write more plane-related sourcebooks if there is an audience for it.
You have to realize also that some of the game designers are new to the material too, and may not have your comprehensive and encyclopedic knowledge of the setting. They're just writers trying to write for a living, putting out a product on a deadline. So they may indeed write a few inoccuous words that unintentionally overwrite established continuity. So what? Use what you like from the book and ignore what you don't care for. No need to be so vitriolic in your condemnation.
Your passion and loyalty for the planescape material is obvious and it is understandable that certain things in the PH may incite strong feelings in you. But the PH writers are your friends, they are the best and greatest friends of all the Planescape afficionadoes as it is in their hands that the setting will be reborn.
The designers clearly have the best intentions with what they have written. Sure they may have made a mistake here or there, but on the whole the Planar Handbook is really wonderful and the designers deserve our praise and support.
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The designers clearly have the best intentions with what they have written. Sure they may have made a mistake here or there, but on the whole the Planar Handbook is really wonderful and the designers deserve our praise and support.
Yeah, if they read these boards they could easily get the idea of "the Planescape fans will gripe and grouse no matter what we do, so why bother trying to please them?"
And I think they were trying to please us.
Please realize that the majority of D&D players have never heard of Planescape which is a brand that hasn't published a product in many years. The Planar Handbook is going to change that. Some people that read it will become intrigued with the planes and will seek out more of the good stuff. If enough people buy it then Wizards will see the value of the Planescape properties and will write more plane-related sourcebooks if there is an audience for it.
Although I agree with that, I believe that this may also backfire. But I'll get to that in a moment.
Rules and settings change, some people just can't seem to handle those changes very well. They become attached to the stability of what is already laid out and frown when something threatens that stability.
Different types of changes may occur and each gamer will interpret that in a personal level, some may like it, others may hate it. In this particular case I'm not very happy with the changes, and I'm not just talking about the Lady's alignment.
What attracted me to PS was the mood and the atmosphere they managed to create for the setting. Sure, the planes have been around since 1e. But PS breathed new life into them by creating this universe of mystery, where hack'n'slash and dungeon crawling, things that have permeated (A)D&D games for quite a while, took a backseat to make room for cunning and good roleplay.
The material released thus far about the Planes in 3rd edition are much more focused on flashy rules and new spiffy powers for the players than setting the actual mood and atmosphere for complex roleplay. I don't mind flashy rules and spiffy powers, but for me they should be secondary.
And that's all. Many things Planescape are coming back to life in 3e and that's both good and bad. Good because there's still planar material coming out and there's a chance more people will get into it and bad because they're taking a much more superficial, number-oriented approach to it.
I don't particularly dislike 3e. It brought many interesting and refreshing ideas (like the great degree of monster customization just to name one). But the way they're handling the planes just pales in comparison to what Planescape did.
But because of the article many new gamers became aware of Dark Sun and m ade an appearance on the board. New gamers, new ideas, many arguments... In the end, it helped Dark Sun as a whole IMHO. If more people become interested in an out-of-print setting (like Planescape) it is a good thing.
The designers are not watering down anything, it's not like they are throwing out the old Planescape continuity. They are just trying to first give the players the mechanics that they need to travel and adventure in the planes in the 3.5 setting. Flavor can all come later.
The books just have to interest the players, bring them into the fold. The marketing department at WOTC has determined that rulesbooks sell better than heavy flavor books. Great! If that's what it takes then sell as many books as you can! When they get here the newbies will want more flavor and we can point them in the direction of the previously published Planescape material.
What would be really great is if there were enough interest for WOTC to publish a few new novels. Nothing like a good novel to set fire to the imagination and make people want to play among the planes.
No matter how you look at it the Planar Handbook is a great thing and hopefully just the first of many more planar sourcebooks to come!
I personally hope that WotC leaves PS alone as much as possible. Their designers have proven to me time and time again that they cannot respect nor properly handle older settings. The mess with FR; the debacle with Her Serenity and other planar foul-ups; the total lack of support for GH, the "Core Setting".
The designers are not watering down anything, it's not like they are throwing out the old Planescape continuity. They are just trying to first give the players the mechanics that they need to travel and adventure in the planes in the 3.5 setting. Flavor can all come later.
Old PS continuity isn't being thrown out, it's being trampled and destroyed. And expecting "flavor" or "fluff" from WotC is like expecting blood from a rock. And what little fluff they do put out ends up contradicting previous fluff that was much better.
They can't take your old PS stuff away from you. You will always have that. Just continue playing with the rules and continuity you like. Ignore the stuff you don't like.
Please believe that the current designers want to do right by you. They have obviously disappointed you somewhat. But their hearts are in the right place. Please don't let it get you down.
Check out the Planar Handbook. I bet you will find some things in there that you will like. Ignore the two little letters "LN" when you get to the section about the Lady. Try to focus on all the good stuff.
Even if the Planar Handbook is not up to snuff for you, think about what may be coming down the pike: More people on the planes boards with interesting comments and ideas. Potentially more books on the horizon (assuming this book sells well for them) that might possibly be more flavor oriented. Maybe more third party adventures. Maybe more PS fan sites will spring up. Good things!
This is the first planar sourcebook in many years. At the very least it's a step in the right direction. Just think: we used to have less, now we have more. How can that be a bad thing?
2) Having people ignorant of that which made Planescape popular with the older generation tends to be a bad idea. It's like a doctor telling an animal vet how to treat a sick gopher. Why should we encourage this?
3) It's the first WotC planar sourcebook since MotP was released, which wasn't that long ago. No biggee.
4) When you create a flavor difference, you're inviting a rift between generations of players. There's a minor divide between Pre- and Post- Faction War players, and those who do or do not consider DVD to be part of the happenings. We don't need to create a more definitive gulf by messing with things further.
5) House Ruling is becoming unpopular. Changing a nice unknown to be a known, and one that relatively few agree with, invites house ruling. House rules, at present, create further gulfs.
Dividing a niche audience is a bad idea, especially when there's no clear benefit to the changes that caused it.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
There is one big problem with The Lady being LN; it gives a definitive answer to the three Ratatosks with boots of levetation, a wand of flaying, and a wand of mazing theory. Aparently she is made out of two rogue modrons instead.
Not necessarily, Sil. She could be made out of axiomatic awakened squirrels. ;)
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Ryltar, dude, it's gonna be okay, I promise.
That's an extremely optimistic promise that you can never hope to guarantee.
They can't take your old PS stuff away from you. You will always have that. Just continue playing with the rules and continuity you like. Ignore the stuff you don't like.
That's exactly what I've been doing. That doesn't mean I can't complain about the things I dislike.
Please believe that the current designers want to do right by you. They have obviously disappointed you somewhat. But their hearts are in the right place. Please don't let it get you down.
No, they want to collect a paycheck. And their dismal work doesn't depress me, it merely disappoints me.
Check out the Planar Handbook. I bet you will find some things in there that you will like. Ignore the two little letters "LN" when you get to the section about the Lady. Try to focus on all the good stuff.
I plan on buying it, and I will ignore everything that I dislike. I've done that with every 3e FR book that's come out.
This is the first planar sourcebook in many years. At the very least it's a step in the right direction. Just think: we used to have less, now we have more. How can that be a bad thing?
It can be a bad thing when the "designers" butcher some of the best things about PS.
Is this definitely a rulebook or does it describe the planes?
She has servants, rules, and laws. She enforces her decrees. That seems lawful. If I had to guess I would say she seems to be LN. But that doesn't mean she is. What do I know? I'm just a clueless observer.
I think my favorites of the new spells are barghest's feast, which allows you to make sure your enemy is really dead, and miasma of entropy, a fun spell for the Doomguard and a good example of a non-evil necromancy spell.
There's a lot of black-and-white art used as filler in the margins which I recognize as also appearing in (3e) Fiend Folio. It's disconcerting.
The Sigil section is lengthy and very well done. The Dana Knutson illustration is beautiful, and there are a number of large diagrams showing the lay-out of the city from a variety of perspectives, making things clearer than ever before (Yes, Sigil curves both ways!).
Dabus are mentioned, but not statted or described very well. Razorvine gets its due. Kylie the Tout gets statted.
The sections on the City of Brass and Tu'narath are also good. Tu'narath seems, at first glance, to be mostly straight from the Dungeon adventure. It's noteworthy that the City of Brass is much, much bigger and wealthier than Sigil is. The map of it is much more extensive than the one in The Inner Planes campaign expansion, but it leaves out some sites like the names of the gates and Rabblerouser's Square. The Octagon, which was a prison in The Inner Planes, is now a Sensate-run festhall.
The Planar Touchstones seem pretty interesting. They're essentially new planar sites and adventure ideas for a wide variety of encounter levels and planes (upper, lower, demiplane, inner plane), which is good for those who have absolutely no idea what PCs should do in the multiverse at large. The upper planes are especially a part of the multiverse that a lot of DMs aren't sure what to do with - to explore the planar touchstones is a worthy start.
We get five new kinds of energon: xac-yel (fire energy), xac-yij (acid energy), xap-yaup (electric energy), xong-yong (sound energy), and xor-yost (cold energy). The weird thing about them is the home planes they suggest: Gehenna, Limbo, the Beastlands, Acheron, and Cania, respectively. Wouldn't they be from the Inner Planes?
The unraveler is what was called the menglis in the PSMCIII. The ur'Epona is similar to the nic'Epona. We get an "entropic" and "vivacious" template for animentals native to the negative and positive inner planes. Elsewhales are essentially balaenas (from the PSMCII, and the Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium before that).
Bariaurs are medium-sized again.
New races: wildren (Beastlands), shadowswyfts (Shadow), spikers (Acheron), neraphim (Limbo), mephlings (inner planes), buommans (Astral). Old races: aasimars, tieflings, bariaurs. Powerful races as PCs: avorals, kytons, hound archons, jann, lillendi.
Lotsa new spells and equipment, and planar variants of base classes. What internet people usually call Abyssal Red Steel is called Abyssal Bloodiron here, a much better name.
The encounter lists are kind of confused, implying that yugoloths are only found in Gehenna and slasraths only in the Waste. Also, none of the new races appear listed there (no buommans in the Astral sections, no shadowswyfts in Shadow). No formians listed for Arcadia, even though they appear in the encounter table on the Arcadian Planar Touchstone. Several Far Realm creatures are listed under "Other planes," but they left out neh-thalggu and wystes. And why are coure, firre, shiradi, and tulani eladrins listed on the Outlands table and not in the Arborea table?
Originally posted by Sildatorak
Other than that, She doesn't care if you are a cross-trading, alpo-eating queen of spies.
"I do not eat Alpo..."
*narrowed gaze*
It's got Sigil and some of the factions (no Revolutionary League, no Dustmen, no Mercykillers, no Bleakers, no Indeps, no Guvners, no Harmonium, no Signers, and no Godsmen - we do get Athar, Doomguard, Fated, Mind's Eye, Sensates, Ciphers and Xaositects).
It's not possible!!!!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20040702a
Wizards: The organizations and prestige classes associated with some of them are rife with potential campaign arcs. (The Doomguard, and its citadels and doomlords, stands out in particular.) What are some of your favorites here?
Bruce: We wanted to cover a wide range of possibilities, while at the same time providing some congruity with concepts of previous planar campaigns. Thus, several of the prestige classes are "soldiers" of planar groups who follow strict plane-inspired philosophies. Many of those who live beyond the Material Plane feel they have a wider view of the way things actually work. To this end, various organizations, groups, and factions exist that teach ways of coping with the mind-boggling immensity of the multiverse. My favorite is the Bleak Cabal, which is a group that believes that "there is no higher purpose." They sponsor a prestige class with the title of "bleaker."
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
"I do not eat Alpo..."
*narrowed gaze*
Who said that I was talking about you? Methinks someone is a little bit vain.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
Who said that I was talking about you? Methinks someone is a little bit vain.
"It's part of the job description. King of the Crosstrade: applicants must be the living embodyment of vanity, shallowness, backstabbing, fickle but elegant taste, habitual telling of half-truths, hating A'kin the Friendly Fiend, have 6000+ years of job experience, and look fetching in a razorvine tiara."
*preen*
"Obviously I fit the bill rather nicely."
still have the chaotic good subtypo of the BOED?
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
*preen*
You know, Xideous had me proofread part of a new book he is working on. It had something about you in it…
On a completely unrelated topic, did you know that summoning and calling spells in Sigil can only reach people who are already inside the cage?
Originally posted by Uratoh
The bariur in the planar handbook are considered to be 'basic' bariur. they have a small box saying that the bariur in the BoED are 'Exalted' bariur with a closer connection to their celestial origins.
*wince* Closer to their celestial origins... they're a true planar race, just not true exemplars. How can some be closer to their origins than others. *boggle*
Unless they're suddenly creations of the Aasimon that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What was the reason to ever have more than one version of the bariuar published in the first place? I swear, every book connected to good or the planes in general has a brand spanking new bariuar build therein. Heh.
And on another note...
*starts paying for Voodoo to be worked upon WotC to publish new artwork for the Arcanaloth, since the MMII art sucked Avoral feathers*
Originally posted by Uratoh
The bariur in the planar handbook are considered to be 'basic' bariur. they have a small box saying that the bariur in the BoED are 'Exalted' bariur with a closer connection to their celestial origins.
I always say that it is a good thing to ignore all the wording related to the BOED and use the wording from other books...
it is very fun by example to read the description of the archons in the MM and then read the one of the BOED, how they modified it for making them more... "exalted".
Now that's what amma talkin' about! I am so sold.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
It might have been written up and then later cut. The Bleakers weren't in the material I saw ahead of time, I only saw stuff on the Doomguard then, and I didn't push to see more because most of the factions didn't relate to what I was working on at the time.
Let's review: Bruce Cordell's favorite faction was apparently detailed but got cut out. I smell a web supplement!
As for the Planar Handbook, personally, I love it and am excited to draw my players back into the planes with it in hand.
...Of course, some things missing that I would have liked to have seen: Modrons, Githyanki, Duth'ka gith (sp?), and Githzerai. (yes the githyanki and githzerai would be repetitive, but it's nice to consolidate and be redundant in some circumstances.) At least, the Modrons and Duth'ka gith would have been nice! (as well as the epic level v. normal level flavors and campaign ideas).
Originally posted by Saurstalk
I also think she is lawful in that she imposes her own laws.
Tanar'ri lords have more laws than The Lady. She only has 3 laws (don't worship Her, don't harm Her or the daubus, don't threatened the continued existence of Sigil). She doesn't care if you assassinate a factol, burn the Hive to the ground, go around killing indeps, or any number of chaotic activities. Her laws are purely self-preservation. She isn't out to hurt anyone with them, but she isn't going to help anyone, either. It isn't about order over chaos or vice versa. She is the epitome of a detached Neutrality.
...Of course, some things missing that I would have liked to have seen: Modrons, Githyanki, Duth'ka gith (sp?), and Githzerai. (yes the githyanki and githzerai would be repetitive, but it's nice to consolidate and be redundant in some circumstances.) At least, the Modrons and Duth'ka gith would have been nice! (as well as the epic level v. normal level flavors and campaign ideas).
The gith races should never be printed again. I don't want to see githyanki and githzerai stat blocks and racial entries in another book for as long as I live. Actually, I take that back. I will allow WotC to print a githzerai entry again only if they actually mention the name 'Zerthimon.' Oh wait. That would be an indication that some so-called "setting" existed back in 2E called 'Planes-cap.' or something like that. Wasn't that the one that had those silly dice people?
(I honestly doubt WotC was just out to **** us royally on purpose, even though thats exactly what they did)
The Lady isn't the ruler of Sigil, she isn't a setting mechanic, she isn't an uber character used to control out of hand characters. You like the writers for the PlHB are missing the point. It's the mystique, the intrigue, the sense of wonder, thats the point of The Lady. Ever been to Mimir? How about any one of the dozens of sites dedicated to PS? Seen the pages of hypothetical info on the LoP? Thats what made the setting great, it realized that the planes (outer especially) weren't just places, they were manifestations of belief. The Lady with any kind of known completely invalidated much of what fans have produced. If the designers want to map out a city that changes on a whim, fine, more power to em, but to give the Lady an alignment is worse then to give her stats IMO. Listen up people, this is the point, it's not that she's unkillable, it's that she's enigmatic.
That aside, I'm glad they returned the Bariaur to a playable race. Exalted bariaur my Mind's Eye! The Planar touchstone sites are interesting. They leave a lot for DM's to tinker with, and they gave us a ton of them.
I'm converting Paladin in Hell right now and already the Sorcerer is taking a few of the substitution levels because he's Planar and wants the flavor... It's hard to give up a 6th level spell known for flavor in 3.5!!! Yea! Planescape players are the best!