How will the returning dragons of Krynn react to the remaining Overlords? Will the elves remain a shattered nation or will some new hero rise up among them to return them to their former glory? Will the minotaurs be pushed back or will we witness the rise of a new and stronger empire? Will the nightly orders see a return to glory or will new ones form in their place? Will the dwarves find a new home in the lost realm of Thoradin?
But most importantly, and of course most anticipated, what new epic heroes will rise out of the ashes to take Krynn on the next leg of her journey?
-------------------
Now that the questions have been asked what possibilties and hopes lie hidden amongst the DragonLance fandom?
Really they have new heads of order? AWESOME!!! Is there any that are already in other books? (like I care they killed my favorite character but how he died get kinda confusing
???)P.S. favorite character is Tas.....[Big open warfare. Sounds like fun to this old wizard.
-TRRW
As far as Krynn-shattering wars and other huge events go I think I´ll put them on hold for a while. Krynn has suffered plenty these last many decades. My future campaigns would probably be of a more "local" sort, dealing with things that are "less important" in the grander scheme of things...you don´t need a huge war in to enjoy RPing in Krynn...
On the official side...well we´ll have to wait and see. I think the KoD module has set something in motion
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
we're going to see all-out thaumaturgical war between wizards and sorcerers. Which means, for a start, that the WOHS will be waging war against the Legion of Steel and Knights of the Thorn, probably the Minotaur Empire as well ( all these groups either tolerate or openly welcome sorcerers / renegades ).
I doubt very much that the WoHS would want a "war on so many fronts...they´d single out the renegades and do what they must with them, but I doubt they´ll risk so much. Instead they´d keep a very watchful eye on the renegades, monitoring their every move. And when the opportunity arises they´ll make their move.
The Minotaur empire: Well there aren´t really that many minotaur sorcerers. They are known for their military might and their skills at sea - not their arcane abilities. I don´t think they´d be too upset to lose a spellcaster or two...not enough so as to go into war with the WoHS.
The Knights of Neraka: These might pose the biggest threat to the WoHS, as the Thorn Knights is a very important part of their organization. Conflict between the two factions is veyr likely.
The Legion of Steel: That´s a tricky one. But I´d say it would take much for the Legion to take arms against the WoHS. They´d try to solve the problem through diplomacy and with as little bloodshed as possible
In fact, I think Ergoth will be the major recruiting grounds for the Solamnic Knights now. Solamnia is currently too fragmented.
I could see them hunting down un-affiliated renegades. I imagine them making some rule that you MUST either be a Knight of the Thorn, a Legion Sorceror, or a High Sorceror. And it's not like no one would join the ToHS, with those options, because they have THOUSANDS of years more experience, not to mention libraries that would make any true magician cream his robes. I don't see the ToHS dying out, but I don't see the Thorn Knights going anywhere, either.
I too see Ergoth as a slumbering giant reawakened. With continental Ansalon thrown into chaos Ergoth now has the chance to shine once again. And I find it rather ironic that Ergoth may very well be the place where the Knights of Solamnia must look for their new recruits!
Originally posted by Dusty Traveler
This would be something new. We all know that Krynn has suffered under the reign of evil before but that has never lasted long. Perhaps this time the dark will prevail over the light for an extended period. The reign of Istar was a time when good dominated so perhaps we are witnessing the balancing factor of Istar.
too much good is always evil...
Originally posted by Valharic
I'm holding out for Soth to come back with some extraplanar powers and cause some chaos, possibly replace one of the Gods or at least rise to demi-god level. Probably just a pipe dream, but I'm going to do that in my campaign a few years down the road.
In your campaign.....cool
In the canon world...please God no! Soth is dead dead dead dead dead!!!!! Died as a mortal and left the world with the other souls Im afraid.....and lets not keep the welcome mat out for him either!
Seriously though you´re right. He should remain dead. He had his 15 minutes of fame (or rather 421 years). If a source of evil is to see the light of night, then let it be something new.
I love Soth, but if they brought him back with anything that even resembles the frequency with which they've dragged Raistlin, or even Tas, back into the storyline, I would be INCREDIBLY upset.
Ravenmantle
Maquesta Kar-Thon!
Now, as to whether Lord Soth needed to be written out. Well it all depends really. Is he such an overriding and powerful character (like Vader himself) that he would dominate the Dragonlance story and setting? Perhaps.
If so though, "Lord Soth disappearing after claiming Kitiara" was as good an exit as any, and certainly better than the one we got in WoS. Plus, he certainly isn't an overwhelming presence in Ravenlotft and fit in well there. If there was no Soth-centric story planned, perhaps that is where should have stayed.
And as for what happened in WoS...how is that not a good exit? He defied Takhisis! How many can brag about standing up to the Dark Queen herself?
GCS
"In the wake of the War of Souls, the mysterious warrior woman Mina grieves for her Dark Queen. Despair turns to determination as Mina gathers a new army of followers to carry out the wishes of her new patron-Chemosh, god of death. As malevolent forces conspire and conflict arises, a brave monk of Majere abandons his faith and sets out to stop Mina and her disciples."
not too sure about a monk abandoning his faith, but there it is.
Personally, I would have preferred Mina as the last Disciple of Takhisis, leading the Knights of Nereka back to honour. But c'est la vie.
I guess I'll just jump to a Knight of the Thorn to do the job. After all, the DLCS didn't tell us who was in charge right? Otherwise I might use Odilia if there are no future plans for her.
Originally posted by ferratus
I guess I'll just jump to a Knight of the Thorn to do the job. After all, the DLCS didn't tell us who was in charge right? Otherwise I might use Odilia if there are no future plans for her.
Odila was referred to as a Cleric of Mishakal in the appendix of the hardbound copy of Dragons of a Vanished Moon.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Odila was referred to as a Cleric of Mishakal in the appendix of the hardbound copy of Dragons of a Vanished Moon.
Meh, if she doesn't get used, she might find her faith in Mishakal to be unfullfilling as that of Takhisis. Otherwise I might use another random mystic that Mina converted before she decided to run to Chemosh.
Originally posted by ferratus
Meh, if she doesn't get used, she might find her faith in Mishakal to be unfullfilling as that of Takhisis. Otherwise I might use another random mystic that Mina converted before she decided to run to Chemosh.
LoL@Run to Chemosh. I swear this fool(Mina) just jumps from god to god.
~~~
Raistlin is going to become a god and fill the void that Takhisis has left. This was a deal he struck with the other gods. As he has already seen what a world with just him as ruler is like he is content with having the other gods around. He is going to get his ego trips by undermining the other gods as trying to become the most powerful god on Krynn.
This of course is going to displease the 3 moon gods so this is going to lead to some nice conflict between Raistlin and the 3 moon gods. Raistlin will probably try to set up his own orders taking in the sorcerors too as he is happy to take anyone as he needs to build his power base.
As Raistlin is now a god the balance needs to be restored so Paladine will be restored as a god too.
He will be caught up in battle with Sargonnas as he will be wanting to help the elves. Sargonnas will of course be backing the minotaurs.
I am probably going to have Raistlin try and gain control of the Knights of Neraka. Chemosh is looking at controling them too so there will be some action here too.
So in a nut shell the future of Kyrnn is going to be about heavenly power stuggles with the mortals having new gods to back or sides to pick.
Originally posted by Cythas
Raistlin is going to become a god and fill the void that Takhisis has left. This was a deal he struck with the other gods.
Then who fills the void Paladine left behind...? Remember the balance...
As Raistlin is now a god the balance needs to be restored so Paladine will be restored as a god too.
You must have missed this bit.
I´m still not crazy about the Raistlin-turning-god idea but then I´m generally not too crazy about Raistlin! But hey if it works for you and everyone else that´s all good! :D
I probably rate him as one of my most favourite characters in all of D&D history plus all my players like him.
After all teh renegades and sorcerors are going to need some help when the Orders start coming after them so who better then Raistlin to be the one to provide the divine support they need.
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
Hehe this must be where I say...oops! ;)
I´m still not crazy about the Raistlin-turning-god idea but then I´m generally not too crazy about Raistlin! But hey if it works for you and everyone else that´s all good! :D
I always saw Raistlin as more of an anti-hero then a full fledged villan. But thats just me.
Personally I don´t think he´d go after the godhood thing...he´s not evil as such...just extremely ambitious and the way to success and power, for him, was through dark magic. I simply don´t think he´d be interested in taking over Takhi´s portfolio. If he was ever to go after godhood, he would go after the three gods of magic...
Originally posted by Dusty Traveler
This would be something new. We all know that Krynn has suffered under the reign of evil before but that has never lasted long. Perhaps this time the dark will prevail over the light for an extended period. The reign of Istar was a time when good dominated so perhaps we are witnessing the balancing factor of Istar.
The Age of Despair was the "balancing" of Istar. It lasted 300+ years. It might not be a 1 to 1 "balance" years wise, but it is close. Istar didn't start getting "bad" unitl the last couple hundred years before the Cataclysm.
Currently we are witnessing the shattering of the elven and dwarven nations perhaps the world is finishing the balancing act that started with Istar by decimating the elven populations and destroying their homelands.
Its a possibility and if you look at it the right way the connections are there.
Originally posted by Dusty Traveler
What I'm referencing is the fact that during the Reign of Istar the evil races were almost wiped from the face of Krynn. Those that survived the wholesale slaughterings were decimated as a people leaving only a few scattered tribes hidding deep in the mountains.
Currently we are witnessing the shattering of the elven and dwarven nations perhaps the world is finishing the balancing act that started with Istar by decimating the elven populations and destroying their homelands.
Its a possibility and if you look at it the right way the connections are there.
Ah, I see. This is true, but the world didn't really have anything to do with the elves or dwarves problems....it was pretty much Tak that caused the Elves all thier hardship. Not sure what happened to the dwarves though? I know there king died, and a good number of dwarves died with him in the tunnels under Qualinesti....but I don't see that as a population problem. They still have homes, and food, and work, etc. I could have missed something though. So I must change what I said, Tak caused the elves problems, I have no idea (besides the king and an unknown number of tunnel workers deaths) who caused what to the dwarves.
Truthfully I don't see a connection between the 2 cataclysms....but to each there own. Either was it works, and either way it isn't a bad thing. ;)
This is true, but the world didn't really have anything to do with the elves or dwarves problems....it was pretty much Tak that caused the Elves all thier hardship.
Yeah, well, as I've said before, the balance never exerts itself overtly. It always works through someone. The Kingpriest. Takhisis. It doesn't matter.
But it is always served.
Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
Yeah, well, as I've said before, the balance never exerts itself overtly. It always works through someone. The Kingpriest. Takhisis. It doesn't matter.
But it is always served.
Actually the balance didn't really have anything to do with the KingPriest (we are making the balance sound like an actual intity...lol). It would have to have been the "anti-balance" working through the Kingpriest, because that is what the Kingpriest worked towards....breaking the balance.
to me, the balance doesn't make much sense. I understand what it represents and all that, but why have good or evil? They are both wrong in the "eyes" of the balance. Neutrality is the only true path.I say this because of the way the balance works. If good or evil get to powerful it throws everything out of wack. although if you think about it, the only reason the KingPriest caused the Cataclysm is because he went about it all wrong. What I mean is, if he could have gotten everyone to imbrace good of thier own free will, then the balance and any of the gods couldnt' have done a thing about it. That is the point of free will after all the ability to choose. If a cataclysm had happened after this, then the system is broken. I say this because if everyone had chosen good (and many did....a good portion of humans, elves, kender, gnomes, and dwarves), then that is in line with the "rules" about free will. If everyone choosing good or evil causes the system to start breaking down then the system is a sham geared only towards Neutrality. It is a never ending conflict the system forces on Krynn and its inhabitants, truely evil in my book). It forces the world to live in a constant struggle, and eventually Krynn is toast, because eventually the Evil gods will go to far (they don't really have many scrupples about what they will and will not do to getting thier goals forwarded....they have some, but not many....Tak had none what so ever). It wasn't only Tak that went to far though, think about it Hiddukel had the Greygem forged and see what that caused? He caused the Chaos war and this event let Tak steal the world. anyways ... I know I'm rambling and I'm sorry....I just woke up and checked email....and the above is what you get when im groggy...hehe.
Originally posted by JRBlasingame
to me, the balance doesn't make much sense. I understand what it represents and all that, but why have good or evil? They are both wrong in the "eyes" of the balance. Neutrality is the only true path.I say this because of the way the balance works. If good or evil get to powerful it throws everything out of wack. although if you think about it, the only reason the KingPriest caused the Cataclysm is because he went about it all wrong. What I mean is, if he could have gotten everyone to imbrace good of thier own free will, then the balance and any of the gods couldnt' have done a thing about it. That is the point of free will after all the ability to choose. If a cataclysm had happened after this, then the system is broken. I say this because if everyone had chosen good (and many did....a good portion of humans, elves, kender, gnomes, and dwarves), then that is in line with the "rules" about free will. If everyone choosing good or evil causes the system to start breaking down then the system is a sham geared only towards Neutrality.
I'm going to try and clarify a little.....
the balance dictates that Good , evil, or Nuetrality can't get to powerful. That without one of these the system breaks down.
The doctrine of Free will dictates that everyone has a right to choose thier own path (good, evil, or neutrality).
Do you see the inevitable problem? conflict? If everyon chooses good, or evil, or Neutrality then they are in essence signing thier own death warrant, because it will evetually lead to the destruction of everything (based on the balance). This is not really "true" free will. Because it is forcing some of the population to be evil, some to be good, and some to be neutral.....not everyone can be just one. This is where the "sham" comes in, because everyone believes they have a choice, but truthfully your choice is limited by those who came before you. Meaning if 95% of the population is good (chosen of thier own free will), then others are forced to be evil or it's literally the end of the world. This is the problem I have with the "balance" idea, because although free will was a gift from the Nuetral dieties, they seem to want to limit free will to meaning, 33% good population, 33% evil, and 33% neutral (I know this is only 99% but you get my meaning). They don't care which part of the populations make up those percentages, but it HAS to be this way or Krynn gets a rock thrown at it. That is only free will on the surface, scratch deeper and it eventually forces one to be good, evil, nuetral based on thier surroundings. Now one person isn't going to throw the balance out of wack, but "ones" eventually add up to many, and many can eventually add up to more than 50% (let alone 90%) of the population.
To have the threat of a Rock (read Mountain) thrown at you for choosing all good or all evil, is what leads me to believe that the balance is messed up, because it really is geared toward Nuetrality running things.....which doesn't make much sense either, because of stagnation.
anyways, if you can understand my ramblings above, you can see I'm not really happy with the "balance" as a whole. Because it doens't really fly with what is supposed to be a "big" rule....FREE WILL.
I figure that the original assumption is wrong. Paladine didn't throw the rock, Gilean did. To reset the world, from leaning too far one way. It's not an issue of free will, so much as an issue of imposing will. If people alll chose to go good or evil on their own, it wouldn't be an issue (except to those pantheons in question) to gilean, and thus, no rock. Its _because_ the matter was forced that the cataclysm happened.
Paladine would never throw a rock like that. Yeah, the kingpriest was his fault, but he would try other means. Gilean, the fulcrum of the balance, has no such compulsion, and only wants to see the course charted by the High God go through. Taky obviously likes imposition of will because it feeds her power.
The system, by nature, is self correcting for the most part. Too much good, and people will naturally lean towards evil out of frustration at being confined. Too much evil, and people will look for heroes and legends to give them hope. Too much neutrality, and good and evil will rise to fill the void. it's only when the balance is tilted too far that a forced reset needs to happen. Think of it as the asian Yin/Yang image, constantly in flux, yet eventually returning to a balanced position.
Originally posted by talinthas
Nice to see someone thinking about the balance critically =)
I figure that the original assumption is wrong. Paladine didn't throw the rock, Gilean did. To reset the world, from leaning too far one way. It's not an issue of free will, so much as an issue of imposing will. If people alll chose to go good or evil on their own, it wouldn't be an issue (except to those pantheons in question) to gilean, and thus, no rock. Its _because_ the matter was forced that the cataclysm happened.
Paladine would never throw a rock like that. Yeah, the kingpriest was his fault, but he would try other means. Gilean, the fulcrum of the balance, has no such compulsion, and only wants to see the course charted by the High God go through. Taky obviously likes imposition of will because it feeds her power.
The system, by nature, is self correcting for the most part. Too much good, and people will naturally lean towards evil out of frustration at being confined. Too much evil, and people will look for heroes and legends to give them hope. Too much neutrality, and good and evil will rise to fill the void. it's only when the balance is tilted too far that a forced reset needs to happen. Think of it as the asian Yin/Yang image, constantly in flux, yet eventually returning to a balanced position.
I see what your saying, but the KingPriest didn't really get into "forcing" good on others until a couple hundred years before the Cataclysm. I know kingpriests hunted the ogre races and such, but this is to be expected because Ogres do tend to hunt/harm those weaker (read smaller and "supposedly less powerful) than themselves. This is more a matter of self preservation....although the Ogres weren't really given a choice in the matter of turning from evil, they were just assumed to be lost causes. Eventually it gets down to thought control, reading ppls minds, and if you don't agree with me you must be evil...type of deal. This later part is what I beleive braught about the Cataclysm (that and the pride of the Kingpriest in trying to force the Gods to do his biding or what not).
I also tend to beleive Paladine did have something to do with the mountain being tossed. He sent warnings (many of them to be exact) so that they would turn back to the gods, and stop following the Kingpriest blindly like they were doing. So he knew it was coming, and he could have stopped it...his inaction puts him in as much responsiblity as whoever threw it, moved it, whatever. But he was not/is not responsible for the ppl not heeding the warnings.
This kind of leads me to change my ideas somewhat. It seems the Neutrals gods are the problem. They profess free will, but they don't want the peoples of the world to choose one definately over the other. They actively seek to make conflict an ever present fact of Krynnish life. But it could be they jsut dont want it forced...yes, this sounds better. But I question what they (the Neutrals) consider "forced". I mean after the 3rd Dragon war...lets say a coupel hundred years so things ahve settled down, were the Neutrals jsut sitting by while the multitudes were actually choosing good over evil and neutrality? Or were they working behind the scenes to make sure that even if the ppl wanted (freely chosen) good, that they would force a balance on them? We will probably never know the answer to this question but I suspect the answer is "Yes, they were". Neutrality seems to aspouse "free will" (it was thier gift to the races as a matter of fact), but when it comes right down to it.....they will work against free will if it means keeping the balance, effectively forcing thier will on the ppls of Krynn (pretty much what Tak wanted, Gilean is just a little more subvert about it). It seems really, that Paladine might have been the only real god to truely believe in "free will". He let ppl make the choices, for good or evil, working for the balance. Oh sure he is a God of Light, but he truely seems to believe that good leads by example. Mishakal might have been like this too, I haven't seen enough of her or the rest of the pantheon to know for sure (she seems to agree with Paladine though). Now that Paladine is effectively gone, there is no telling what will happen.
This last pargraph prett much boils down to the Neutrals (at least Gliean, and by that the rest of the neutrals who follow him) are pretty much as bad as the Evil gods when it comes to forcing thier will on the masses. They just tend to do it from the background.
The Gods of Light aren't the proponents of free will. Left up to them, everybody would live, there would be no pain, no suffering, no hunger, no violence. There wouldn't be any greed or drive to possess or control. There'd be no aggression, no motivation to do anything but live among one another and do no harm. While this is idyllic, it is also stagnant. It is the ultimate expression of what the Kingpriest believed in, to his error. Good, if unchecked, leads to a kind of moral absolutism with no room for individuality.
The Gods of Darkness aren't proponents of free will, either. Left up to them, there would be constant pain and suffering, no relief from tyranny, no end to domination, infliction of harm, thirst, hunger, disease, violence, and death. There would be no hope, no concept of a world without any of these things, no dream for a better place. Again, there would be no individuality, as all personal freedoms and desires are sublimated completely by evil. If there is any individual behavior, it would be random and senseless, devoid of reason except in the basest of desires.
If these two ideologies were put down in the same place, it would be endless conflict with nothing but good vs. evil, driven by a moral engine that sees no alternative but the end of the other. Good would never permit evil to be anything but redeemed and good. Evil would never permit good to be anything but consumed by evil. That's more or less the case on some outer planes where celestial wars are carried out by outsiders whose whole nature is wrapped up in an ideological pattern untempered by freedom to choose.
Neutrality, while at times unconcerned with morality in any sense, nevertheless enforces the freedom to decide between good or evil, or even neither. Most of the neutral gods govern amoral spheres that really don't bring morality into the equation at all - knowledge, nature, fire & passion, craft, enterprise, wisdom... these are things which, when added to a moral compass, give mortals something to express their good or evil natures over. Alone, they're just concepts. But it's the presence of free will which ensures that mortals will bring those neutral spheres into their lives, and do something to further them.
In essence, Gilean gave mortals the option. There is no moral absolute, but there is a balance that needs to be maintained. Truly, mortals are the ones who create the need for that balance, and the ones who influence it. If the gods could arrest the balance themselves, they would - but even the Cataclysm didn't restore the balance so much as it gave mortals a reminder that the gods are the gods for a reason. Without Istar, they had to start over and re-evaluate the way the world had worked.
I'm very glad that Krynn's pantheon has a neutral component. I think people ignore it too often, and blame it for things it doesn't deserve to be blamed for. I don't think Paladine's the perfect deity, but then I don't think any of them are. Together, and with mortals doing their work of their own volition, the system works. And because the gods accepted all of the gifts that were handed to mortals, including free will, they make the best they can of them in their own affairs.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
If free will had not been granted to mortals by Gilean, and the Neutral pantheon were not involved in the affairs of mortals, then there would be constant war.
The Gods of Light aren't the proponents of free will. Left up to them, everybody would live, there would be no pain, no suffering, no hunger, no violence. There wouldn't be any greed or drive to possess or control. There'd be no aggression, no motivation to do anything but live among one another and do no harm. While this is idyllic, it is also stagnant. It is the ultimate expression of what the Kingpriest believed in, to his error. Good, if unchecked, leads to a kind of moral absolutism with no room for individuality.
The Gods of Darkness aren't proponents of free will, either. Left up to them, there would be constant pain and suffering, no relief from tyranny, no end to domination, infliction of harm, thirst, hunger, disease, violence, and death. There would be no hope, no concept of a world without any of these things, no dream for a better place. Again, there would be no individuality, as all personal freedoms and desires are sublimated completely by evil. If there is any individual behavior, it would be random and senseless, devoid of reason except in the basest of desires.
If these two ideologies were put down in the same place, it would be endless conflict with nothing but good vs. evil, driven by a moral engine that sees no alternative but the end of the other. Good would never permit evil to be anything but redeemed and good. Evil would never permit good to be anything but consumed by evil. That's more or less the case on some outer planes where celestial wars are carried out by outsiders whose whole nature is wrapped up in an ideological pattern untempered by freedom to choose.
Neutrality, while at times unconcerned with morality in any sense, nevertheless enforces the freedom to decide between good or evil, or even neither. Most of the neutral gods govern amoral spheres that really don't bring morality into the equation at all - knowledge, nature, fire & passion, craft, enterprise, wisdom... these are things which, when added to a moral compass, give mortals something to express their good or evil natures over. Alone, they're just concepts. But it's the presence of free will which ensures that mortals will bring those neutral spheres into their lives, and do something to further them.
In essence, Gilean gave mortals the option. There is no moral absolute, but there is a balance that needs to be maintained. Truly, mortals are the ones who create the need for that balance, and the ones who influence it. If the gods could arrest the balance themselves, they would - but even the Cataclysm didn't restore the balance so much as it gave mortals a reminder that the gods are the gods for a reason. Without Istar, they had to start over and re-evaluate the way the world had worked.
I'm very glad that Krynn's pantheon has a neutral component. I think people ignore it too often, and blame it for things it doesn't deserve to be blamed for. I don't think Paladine's the perfect deity, but then I don't think any of them are. Together, and with mortals doing their work of their own volition, the system works. And because the gods accepted all of the gifts that were handed to mortals, including free will, they make the best they can of them in their own affairs.
Cheers,
Cam
I'm not so sure that if there weren't neutral gods there would be perpetual war (I think one would win eventually, and I also don't believe that paridise is impossible without evil...call me foolish if you will, but I beleive it is possible to have just good without evil....good would be the natural state of things, it wouldn't stop things from being good...they would still be good..anyways). I really think you over estimate there significants compared to the other gods (light and dark). They do what's best in the interest of the balance, I understand this, but they also pretty much force others (no one in particular mind you....just ppl in general) to be of "some" alignment (pretty much the opposite of what is dominate at the moment). If there is to much good, then they work with evil, if there is to much evil they work with good. This is an involvement that limits free will (at least the way I see it), because it is all based on statistics (what percentage of the present population is good compared to evil compared to neutral) and not the fact that most everyone wants to be good or evil.
I also never said the God(S....I didn't make it plural) of Light, I said Paladine being a god of light. I still think Paladine is a better example of free will than Gilean is.....Paladine has shown time and time again how he lets others choose thier own path. Sure he may try to guide them, and teach them, but he lets them choose and stressed this phylosophy (sp) to the other gods of light (some of which probably didn't like it, and thought it wasn't agressive enough). Gilean just pretty much says, "there is to much good/evil, we have to balance it....forget that the mortals chose this path and are using the gift I gave them to chose good or evil or neutral". I mean paladine did try to stop the kingpriest short of divine intervention (although talking to Soth might be considered divine intervention). Now admittedly I am probably being harder than I need to be, but this is the way I see it (although if I had been asked my thoughts on this matter 3 days ago I couldn't have told you any of this...lol). Paladine is a being of good, and believes it is better than evil or Neutrality, but he tempers this with the knowledge that the mortals of Krynn must be allowed to choose what they do, where they go, and how they live thier lives.....he leads by example. He fights wars pretty much when he has too, this usually being wars Tak starts and he has to step in and stop her. Paladine works within the rules to get his points across, and job done. He learned along time ago (during the All Saints War, that waring on Krynn is not a good thing). It seems the Neutrals just "play" at it. I mean Reorx and shinare (I think that is the gods name) tried to tie the world closer to Neutrality by forging the Grey gem....actively working to "force" Krynn to be more neutral. I understand and know they were dupted, but it doesn't change the fact that thier belief was that it would make Neutrality stronger in the world....and it did too....just look at the godly set up now. 7 Neutrals vs 6 good and 6 evil. It just took a few millinia to come to fruition.
*edit: None of the Gods are perfect. But some of them are better at doing thier "jobs" than others, and I put Paladine on the top of this list because of the way he actively works to maintain the balance while being a prestine example of good.
In the modern Hindu Trinity concept, there is a creator, a preserver, and a destroyer, which all spawn from a higer diety. DL has this as well, and recently has removed the first and last. Does this negatively impact creation? No, because Gilean is there to make sure that the machine still runs as intended to. Yes, he occasionally has to force some parts to fit, but on the whole, he's a hands off kinda guy. It will be very interesting to see how the balance is maintained from now on, without Paladine or Takhisis to muck around.
Originally posted by talinthas
aha. see, this is where our own personal philosophies color our discussion. I believe that good cannot exist without evil, because of the very nature of the concept. It's part of the Hindu belief in balance. In Dragonlance, i think that the neutrals serve only to make sure that the scale has a fulcrum, hense gilean not leaving when the other two did. He is the book of creation, after all, and losing that would destroy the world. I don't think that neutral is as self serving as you imply, since that tends to lie in the evil side of the alignment. The grey gem was forged when the evils tricked the neutrals, and i'm certain that there have been other times when the goods have conned the neutrals as well (they just have better PR).
In the modern Hindu Trinity concept, there is a creator, a preserver, and a destroyer, which all spawn from a higer diety. DL has this as well, and recently has removed the first and last. Does this negatively impact creation? No, because Gilean is there to make sure that the machine still runs as intended to. Yes, he occasionally has to force some parts to fit, but on the whole, he's a hands off kinda guy. It will be very interesting to see how the balance is maintained from now on, without Paladine or Takhisis to muck around.
This is true, our beliefs do differ and do have a very large tendency to affect our thoughts on various matters. My problem with Gilean not leaving with Paladine and Tak comes from the fact that it has been stated over and over again that the balance is between good, evil, AND neutrality. This means that right now, there is an imbalance, with Neutral being the problem. Now if Gilean (who holds the book of creation given to him by the Highgod) is really serious about the balance he either needs to step down or have Reorx step down (as he is the only other Greater Deity in the Neutral pantheon). This doesn't really completely balance the pantheons, since Gilean should be the one, but it goes a long way to doing so.
Also, from what I'm getting this fits into Hinduism too. Neutral also has no form or reason without good or evil to give it "form" or a reason for being or something to balance. So they are all equal in the scheme of things. I really don't know enough of about Hinduism to make a valid judgement though (as I'm a Christian, which is why I believe there can be good without evil). I don't really want to go down the "personal religion thing though", 1 it isn't on topic and 2 it usually ends badly because everyone and thier mother jumps in and it gets out of hand. I know you will respect my beliefs as I respect yours, but there seems to be that one person who "pops" into a conversation like that and can't seem to grasp that concept. So I ask we don't go there..hehe.
And whether Reorx and Shinare (still not sure if that is the right name...seems to be though, no one corrected me) were conned or not doesn't really matter. It was there belief that the GreyGem would ground Krynn more in Neutrality, and that was thier intent (well Shinare for sure). So, the Neutral gods aren't always looking for a balance....because a stronger neutral presence would have thrown the balance out of wack (as it has right now).
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The Gods of Light aren't the proponents of free will. Left up to them, everybody would live, there would be no pain, no suffering, no hunger, no violence. There wouldn't be any greed or drive to possess or control. There'd be no aggression, no motivation to do anything but live among one another and do no harm. While this is idyllic, it is also stagnant. It is the ultimate expression of what the Kingpriest believed in, to his error. Good, if unchecked, leads to a kind of moral absolutism with no room for individuality.
The Gods of Darkness aren't proponents of free will, either. Left up to them, there would be constant pain and suffering, no relief from tyranny, no end to domination, infliction of harm, thirst, hunger, disease, violence, and death. There would be no hope, no concept of a world without any of these things, no dream for a better place. Again, there would be no individuality, as all personal freedoms and desires are sublimated completely by evil. If there is any individual behavior, it would be random and senseless, devoid of reason except in the basest of desires.
You described The Hidden Vale and The Abyss quite nicely.
But think about this. Gilean holds the book. Without Krynn the book is finished and his job is done He turns it over to the High God and he has nothing to do. He has a very invested interest in Krynns continued existence. Therefore he has a very invested interest in the continuation of balance. Division of a whole into threes doesn't come out even and Gilean has always gotten the better deal. Humans are more numerous and powerful than any other race by a long shot. The only thing they have going against them is their short lifespan which is only 20 years less than Oger.
Originally posted by Galen Dracos
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet. Why not just integrate the sorcerers and give them another color robe such as grey and add the sorcerer class to the tower. It doesn't matter that their magic comes from diffrent sources as they all have the same types of goals being that all of em are magi.
Well, the problem with that is that the very act of spellcasting by sorcerers is seen as blasphemous by the Wizards of High Sorcery. It's safe to say that while renegade Wizards are a danger that should be dealt with, they at least have the one thing going for them that the magic they use is not some Chaos-spawned abomination. The only way sorcerers would be accepted into the Wizards of High Sorcery would be if they experienced epiphanies and actually became Wizards.
Seriously though I actually think it DOES matter where one´s magic comes from. The WoHS get their magic from the three gods of magic, while sorcerers have been touched by Chaos...
Ravenmantle
Edit: Baah! Too slow again!